Question about Cell stealing his time machine.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:49 pm

Xyex wrote:Flaw: That's not time travel, that's dimension hopping.

Well, in "Dragon Ball", "time travel" is dimension-hopping.
Why are new timelines created/discovered by Trunks when he uses the Time Machine? Because he can't change his own timeline. He needs a parallel timeline. A parallel dimension.
Multiple timelines/dimensions. That's official, confirmed by Toriyama, etc. Heck, Trunks even uses the word "dimensions" ("jigen") when he talks about all that, in the manga, if I remember well.

Now, there are other works of fiction where time travels are all contained within the same universe/timeline... but most of them don't make much sense. ^_^;
Sure, there are ways to make it work... A possible method would be to have the time traveller know very little about the time period he goes to ("12 Monkeys" uses an apocalyptic event to achieve that, for example). In the end, the determinism of that unique timeline would be painfully obvious (and thus fairly depressing), but it would work.

If the other time-lines pre-exist the traveling of an individual to create them the are, by definition, alternate universes, not alternate time-lines.

Same thing, really.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:22 pm

Personally I'm starting to think Trunks is just flat out wrong when it comes to anything involving time travel. He's always saying different things.

First it's essential that nobody reveal his identity or else he won't be born. So? It's another timeline. Then he's not sure if he has enough energy to stop en route and help three years later. Again, so what if you're willing to just create another timeline (which ends up being the case)? Then when he first arrives three years later, the first thing he wants to do is go back in time. But that would create a new timeline!

I'm starting to think there's just a multiverse of four timelines and that, due to paradox issues, it's simply impossible to time travel within your own time. But traveling to the past of other universes doesn't create a paradox, so it's possible to alter their pasts.

EDIT: An example would be the Marvel Comics multiverse.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:01 pm

Dayspring wrote:Personally I'm starting to think Trunks is just flat out wrong when it comes to anything involving time travel. He's always saying different things.

Flat out wrong, I don't know, but clueless, yeah, apparently.
Using a time machine without taking the time to wonder how that stuff really works? Come on, Trunks! You should know better!

First it's essential that nobody reveal his identity or else he won't be born. So? It's another timeline.

Maybe he just wants a Trunks to be born in that timeline as well... ^^;
But really, he should consider himself insanely lucky that it did work out in the end, despite his obvious interference (he gave Vegeta a good reason to train especially hard for three years, for one thing)! His parents still conceived a Trunks. The right time, the right sperm, the right egg... Whoa. He should consider playing the lottery.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:38 pm

Yep. Marvel Comics is the reference to have in mind when you think of DB time travel. When you travel to the past, you split off an alternate timeline. Afterwards, you can calibrate your time machine to return you to the alternate (which is what I imagine Mirai did). But if you go further back in time than you did originally, you create another split.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:05 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Afterwards, you can calibrate your time machine to return you to the alternate (which is what I imagine Mirai did).

Yeah, I don't know about that... Trunks appears to be so clueless about the whole thing, I'm having a hard time imagining him selecting timelines. Wasn't he actually surprised to find out that nothing had changed, in his future?

That, and if you can actually choose which dimension you want to go to, the Time Machine becomes even more "powerful" than it already was... Downright abusable. If I was the Chô-Dai-Kaiôshinshin that governs over the whole "Dragon Ball" multiverse, I would definitely nerf it.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:07 pm

Well, before Mirai went back to kill Freeza, time travel was just a theory. For all of Bulma's brilliance, it was all a hypothesis. They didn't know if they were in a "Back to the Future"-esque one timeline that rewrote itself, or a Marvel Comics-esque multiverse that would split and branch. So on the first go, best to be careful just in case and make sure, say, that a Trunks will still exist. Then, after he returned home and they verified they had a multiverse, he didn't have to worry about that stuff.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:12 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Well, before Mirai went back to kill Freeza, time travel was just a theory. For all of Bulma's brilliance, it was all a hypothesis. They didn't know if they were in a "Back to the Future"-esque one timeline that rewrote itself, or a Marvel Comics-esque multiverse that would split and branch.

Surely, Bulma heard of "tests"? ^_^;;;
And really, the whole "one timeline that rewrites itself" thing would be such a mess... If I were Bulma, I'd probably be more than a little concerned about the possibility I might cease to exist the second my son pushes the button. ^^;;;

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:19 pm

Normal Bulma would agree with you. But this Bulma is running low on power and supplies and probably doesn't have the resources to make tests (per Mirai, they barely were able to cobble even one time machine together). And this Bulma, obviously, has "grown up" and matured quite a lot, and most likely wouldn't mind being 'overwritten' by a new timeline if it means Goku and all the other billions don't die.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:36 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Normal Bulma would agree with you. But this Bulma is running low on power and supplies and probably doesn't have the resources to make tests (per Mirai, they barely were able to cobble even one time machine together).

Well, yeah, but... still, she managed to build a goddamn time machine!
I mean, if she has enough resources to actually invent and build a functioning time machine, I think she should be able to perform a few basic tests. Like sending an empty time machine a few minutes into the past, with a timer so that it would automatically come back from whatever dimension it discovered/created, just in case. Using her own son as a crash dummy is a bit harsh. ^^;

And this Bulma, obviously, has "grown up" and matured quite a lot, and most likely wouldn't mind being 'overwritten' by a new timeline if it means Goku and all the other billions don't die.

Maybe, but Trunks seemed completely oblivious to that possibility, and that's also a bit harsh (and stupid on Trunks' part... again, what was he thinking, anyway?? ^^;). Especially considering he's apparently making sure Bulma and Vegeta would conceive a "Trunks". Even in the best case (Gokû survived, they defeated the androids, hurray), Trunks would reappear in a bold new future where Bulma isn't quite the mother he knew, and already has a son named "Trunks". Welcome "home", extranumeral Trunks!

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:38 pm

Presuming he himself isn't altered to BE the new Trunks.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:40 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Presuming he himself isn't altered to BE the new Trunks.

How would that work? I mean, he has to come back in his time machine, right? And the new Trunks would already be there, in the new future...

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:50 pm

Unless there's basically a "Trunks-shaped hole" in the timeline that's filled by his arrival and no one ever remembers that things were ever different...

*rubs temples* I know I could explain this better if I'd gotten more than an hour's sleep...

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:15 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Unless there's basically a "Trunks-shaped hole" in the timeline that's filled by his arrival

Again, there should already be a Trunks in the "revised timeline". Bulma and Vegeta got together, and they had a son. That son grew up. And then, a time machine appears and... well, here's another Trunks.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:07 am

Basically, all we know abut DBZ time travel is this:

-Time travel creates new timelines/dimensions, it does not change the timeline you are from.

-Trunks always returns to the future he came from, and when he subsequently returns to the past, he returns to that timeline and not his own.

Other than that, all we know is what we see actually happen. My explanation is the only one I've found that makes sense, but I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong, if anyone can come up with something better (or even prove I'm wrong somehow).

The only thing to remember are those two 'facts' and that all the 'time travel rules' have to be consistent: A causes B, and C causes D - every time. Like creating a new timeline, since it's clear that Trunks created a new timeline when he went back in time, then every timejump must create a new timeline.

-edit-
Oliver: I don't go into the 'why' Cell didn't appear in that timeline, or 'why' Trunks goes back to the same timeline he came from because I don't know

There's no explanation to those questions. I could say that Cell was killed by #16, and that Bulma had anticipated the need for a 'dimensional navigator' and had an automatic one installed on the Time machine - they're completely plausible explanations, but there's nothing to suggest them.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:23 am

Considering the Daizenshuu specifically points out only 4 timelines in the series (a "Cell Games" in "Timeline 4" notwithstanding a mention), can't we all just assume that's the status of the series' universes? Saying Trunks creates yet another timeline when he goes back to 767 AD just doesn't make sense to me, mainly because such a concept is never brought up in the series, Daizenshuu, or video games; it's only ever implied that a new timeline is created the further back one goes into the past, hence Cell creating "Timeline 1" when he goes further back than the Trunks of his time originally did. I don't mean to sound out of the loop of this (to me) confusing debate, but some of you guys seem to be looking deeper into DBZ's time travel issue than need-be. That be my opinion.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:47 am

Ah, but that's the beauty of Dragon Ball: its simplicity. Its concepts are vague enough to leave themselves open to multiple interpretations, but those concepts are compelling/interesting enough to care about, at the same time. We know enough to understand the basics... the rest is up to us. Imagination is probably half of being a Dragon Ball fan, in my book.

Wink

(By the way, the other half is not taking yourself too seriously, which the Daizenshuu EX staff has perfected to an artform)

Ozma15 · Post by **Ozma15** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:46 am

You know, after reading all of this (good theories all around!), I have the mental image of Toriyama just... lurking on various multilingual messageboards, cackling to himself as he watches people debate these kinds of things.

"Couldn't let me quit after the Freeza thing, oh no... Well, now you'll NEVER quit! Ahahahahahaha!"

I mean, when does this time-traveling start? Right after he wanted to end the series.

For my two cents, it really does sound like Bulma and Trunks were going in blind. I always figured Trunks had no clue that there would be 'branching' timelines... wasn't it Gohan who raised the question of, "If you go back further again and destroy the androids in the past, will the ones that are already here just disappear?" or some such?

Anyway, why should Trunks have any clue what the heck he's talking about? Present Trunks says in one of the movies that he picks this stuff up from his mom and grandpa, but Future Trunks probably spends enough time training that he's NOT around when Bulma is doing her genius thing. The world is ending--he's probably more interested in Ways to Kill the Jinzouningen than quantum mechanics/physics/whatever else kind of science applies here. I mean, I'm sure he's got some natural intelligence, but he probably doesn't spend much time on 'smart' things. I imagine he's got only the most basic education; Gohan or Bulma probably tutored him for a bit, but they were probably too busy with trying to stop the Jinzouningen and building the time machine to really spend all that much time on things like higher math or the intricacies of science.

Don't know about the manga version, since I read the Viz only once a couple years ago, but in the TV special, until he got his rear handed to him that final time, he seemed well against using the time machine at all. Why would he want to understand it?

So maybe Trunks is just an unreliable narrator. Maybe if Bulma did it herself or Gohan survived, it would make more sense.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:50 am

desirecampbell wrote:Oliver: I don't go into the 'why' Cell didn't appear in that timeline, or 'why' Trunks goes back to the same timeline he came from because I don't know There's no explanation to those questions. I could say that Cell was killed by #16, and that Bulma had anticipated the need for a 'dimensional navigator' and had an automatic one installed on the Time machine - they're completely plausible explanations, but there's nothing to suggest them.

Even if there's apparently nothing about that in the series, it would be nice to have at least one "unifying theory" that would make sense and explain everything, in my opinion.

Conan the SSJ wrote:Considering the Daizenshuu specifically points out only 4 timelines in the series (a "Cell Games" in "Timeline 4" notwithstanding a mention), can't we all just assume that's the status of the series' universes?

As far as I can tell, there can't be just four timelines...

Saying Trunks creates yet another timeline when he goes back to 767 AD just doesn't make sense to me

Him not creating another timeline the second time around doesn't make sense to me.

Unless, maybe... (headache alert)

some of you guys seem to be looking deeper into DBZ's time travel issue than need-be. That be my opinion.

Oh, definitely. I really doubt Toriyama could explain how the whole thing works. He said himself things got quite confusing for him, during that arc (and if he had to change the Big Bad's identity several times over, I bet they did).
I'm just wondering if we could come up with a precise set of rules for time-travel and a satisfying explanation as to what went on exactly.

Ozma15 wrote:"Couldn't let me quit after the Freeza thing, oh no... Well, now you'll NEVER quit! Ahahahahahaha!"
I mean, when does this time-traveling start? Right after he wanted to end the series.

Er... Yeah, I'd still like to see an actual source for that theory. ^_^;

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:10 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:Unless there's basically a "Trunks-shaped hole" in the timeline that's filled by his arrival
Again, there should already be a Trunks in the "revised timeline". Bulma and Vegeta got together, and they had a son. That son grew up. And then, a time machine appears and... well, here's another Trunks.

Actually, what Thanos is saying is one of the many theories of time-travel. If you go back and alter the past and the future changes, the you of the future is 'absent' since you're still in the past. Return to the future and the you of the future is there and you are the you of that future, not the you you were when you went back. Because re-entering the time-line 'shifts' you to match the new time-line. Confusing, I know, but there it is.

Considering the Daizenshuu specifically points out only 4 timelines in the series (a "Cell Games" in "Timeline 4" notwithstanding a mention), can't we all just assume that's the status of the series' universes? Saying Trunks creates yet another timeline when he goes back to 767 AD just doesn't make sense to me,

If you're refering to when he goes back after the Cell Games, that split MUST occur for there to be four time-lines. Remember, there's only TWO pasts. The one Trunks made and the one Cell made. Then there's two futures. The one Trunks and Cell came from and the one Trunks went back to after the Cell Games.

As far as I can tell, there can't be just four timelines...

There's absolutely no reason for more than four. Original, Trunks Forged, Cell Forged, Alternate Future.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:02 am

Xyex wrote:Actually, what Thanos is saying is one of the many theories of time-travel. If you go back and alter the past and the future changes, the you of the future is 'absent' since you're still in the past.

Sorry, but that's not a valid theory of time-travel. If anything, it's a convenient story-telling device, the kind you could find in the "Back to the Future" series. But it doesn't make any kind of sense, if you think about it.

Return to the future and the you of the future is there and you are the you of that future, not the you you were when you went back. Because re-entering the time-line 'shifts' you to match the new time-line.

And where does the time machine go? What about the circumstances of your return? You go back in the future with your time-machine, there's a flash a Convenience Magic, and "somehow" you're immediately teleported in your future sofa, watching future stupid cartoons, "the way it should be"? And right before that, what was in that sofa? Another you? Where did he go, then? Or was that a "you-shaped-hole"? A "nothing" that was born, raised by his parents and went to school, despite his little "non-existence" issue? Whuh?
Does the timeline do all that? Damn, it's good. Like sentient-good. Like fairy godmother-good. Does it also magically send the time machine to a junkyard, while it's at it? ^^;

Confusing, I know, but there it is.

It's confusing because it doesn't make sense.
Again, sure, that kind of "magic" is used in time travel stories, but they're bad time-travel stories. The "Back to the Future" movies are nice comedy/adventure flicks, sure, but as time travel stories? Not so much.

Zemeckis and Gale wrote:Marty: Doc, What about Jennifer? What about Einstein? We can't just leave them here.
Doc: Don't worry, Marty. Assuming we succeed in our mission, this alternate 1985 will be changed back into the real 1985, instantaneously transforming around Jennifer and Einie.

Yeah, "around" them. It's magic!

As far as I can tell, there can't be just four timelines...
There's absolutely no reason for more than four. Original, Trunks Forged, Cell Forged, Alternate Future.

Could you explain how and why each of them are created? Could you explain why Trunks creates only one new timeline when he goes several times in the past?