Dragonball's intended length

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:18 pm

I can't help but find it amusing when people act as if Tpriyama was forced by gun point to continue the series. By the time of the Namek story, Toriyama was influential enough, that he did not have to do anything he didn't want to do. The more logical outlook is Toriyama still had some ideas for the characters. Why did he end it after the Buu storyarc? The answer is because he had done everything he possibly could with these characters.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:32 pm

While the Buu arc may have been a bit superfluous (big word yay), it did do a good job of wrapping up some aspects of DragonBall's story. Like giving closure to Goku and Vegeta's rivalry, having the inhabitants of Earth save their own wealking booties for once, and, speaking of booty, introducing Videl...

*ahem*

Also, without the Buu arc, we never would've gotten movies 10 through 13. There's that, right?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:56 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote: Also, without the Buu arc, we never would've gotten movies 10 through 13. There's that, right?

I dunno, man. I'm willing to give up Hitler and Gogeta if it means Broly never comes back.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:17 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:While the Buu arc may have been a bit superfluous (big word yay), it did do a good job of wrapping up some aspects of DragonBall's story. Like giving closure to Goku and Vegeta's rivalry, having the inhabitants of Earth save their own wealking booties for once, and, speaking of booty, introducing Videl...

*ahem*

Also, without the Buu arc, we never would've gotten movies 10 through 13. There's that, right?

You are a funny guy, Kaboom. You are worthy enough to be quoted in my sig., heh heh. I agree with Rocketman though. Only time would tell when someone would play the Broli card.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:29 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:While the Buu arc may have been a bit superfluous (big word yay), it did do a good job of wrapping up some aspects of DragonBall's story. Like giving closure to Goku and Vegeta's rivalry, having the inhabitants of Earth save their own wealking booties for once, and, speaking of booty, introducing Videl...

Here-here!

*cough...ahem*

Anywho, on topic! I found myself watching some old tapes from the latter part of the Freeza arc a bit ago, it definitely seems like bringing the Grand Elder back was a cop-out. I mean, broken heart or not, it's still natural causes. Shenlong bringing him back makes about as much sense as Porunga reviving the Elder Kaioshin (who willingly gave his life energy to Goku, taking his place as a dead resident in a literal equivalent exchange, and was nowhere near Earth during his "moment"...as Dende only wished for people who died on Earth to be revived). Not to mention Piccolo being shot on the left side of his chest, I.E. through his heart, how he survived that was a miracle (or was it right side, I wasn't watching the episode where Goku transforms). It certainly seemed like the series as a whole could've ended, I mean Goku's final scream in the anime and Budokai 1's cut-scenes ("I can't stop it!!" in the manga) mirrored Vegeta's monologue flashback of the previous Legendary Super Saiyan, and considering Goku had achieved this level of power and just avenged the Saiyan race, this sort've seemed like his true destiny. If it were to end as young 'un Steven Perry brought up, it would've been more perfect than the Cell and Buu arc endings combined IMO.

...Hmm..

Castor, your sig' friggin' owns!

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:00 pm

But Conan, I think the only vital organ that Piccolo needs is in his head because he can still regenerate as long as his head is intact. What was the link for?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:46 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:But Conan, I think the only vital organ that Piccolo needs is in his head because he can still regenerate as long as his head is intact.

1. That statement is from the Buu Saga.
2. Piccolo couldn't regen from Nappa's attack.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:07 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:But Conan, I think the only vital organ that Piccolo needs is in his head because he can still regenerate as long as his head is intact.
1. That statement is from the Buu Saga.
2. Piccolo couldn't regen from Nappa's attack.

Taking that into consideration, the attack that Nappa unleashed on Piccolo was meant for Gohan...and what the hell am I trying to prove, Piccolo was supposed to die regardless. Kami foreshadowed this and Piccolo (and I guess Toriyama) was obviously not going to let Goku's son die. If anything, Piccolo losing arms should have him bleed to death right? Vegeta being crushed by a giant ape should have killed him right? Goku miraculously survived a blast from Piccolo in the 23th world tournament? Not everything has to make perfect sense. The only thing that is certain in the DragonWorld is Piccolo being the greatest (last part not true, or is it?).

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:19 pm

Xyex wrote:Someone's obviously never seen the History of Trunks or the Android/Cell arcs.

That's the thing, the darkest events all occured in a parallel universe. Main characters who die. Like, for real. Whoa. We can't let that happen in our universe, no sir! And in the end? Of course it doesn't happen.

I mean, I know that the series became more serious and violent as it went on, but on the other hand, death itself has been neutered fairly early on. It can be undone. And it will be undone. Remember, kids: "friendship + efforts = victory".

It's a series that began with a little boy meeting a young girl, going on a fantastic adventure, making some friends on the way... but wait! SPOILER! In the end, they all die!
Erm. Nope. Sorry. 'Can't see that happening.
I could see Gokû sacrificing himself and passing the torch to his son, but the whole "all our friends are dead!" thing? As a final note? No way in hell. Heck, the Shûeisha probably wouldn't even allow it.

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean it isn't fact.

Sure. But what does, then?
Sorry, but I'd like to see the source. ^^;

Victator Supreme wrote:I can't help but find it amusing when people act as if Tpriyama was forced by gun point to continue the series. By the time of the Namek story, Toriyama was influential enough, that he did not have to do anything he didn't want to do.

I'm not sure you realize how much the series was worth. Many people were depending on it going on. That's a lot of pressure (mainly from Tôei, actually, I'd think).

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:28 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:It's a series that began with a little boy meeting a young girl, going on a fantastic adventure, making some friends on the way... but wait! SPOILER! In the end, they all die!
Erm. Nope. Sorry. 'Can't see that happening.

I know you can't. But I can. The only difference between my opinion and yours, is I referenced the story to support my position (explained how the story had gotten darker and more serious as it progressed) and you just said you didn't like it.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:21 pm

desirecampbell wrote:The only difference between my opinion and yours, is I referenced the story to support my position (explained how the story had gotten darker and more serious as it progressed) and you just said you didn't like it.

Ah, actually, I pointed out that it never got so dark and serious that main characters actually got killed for real. You know? Not even when the manga actually ended.
'Seems kinda relevant to me, but hey... I guess it's your call.

And of course, there's also the fact that it's... well, I'll be nice and simply say "highly unlikely" that Shûeisha would allow such a dark ending. "So they all fought to revive their friends, but it was pointless in the end? What will the kids think?"

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:43 pm

Um, for those who care, almost every "possible" ending for the DragonBall story (with the manga) was in a lighter note. Don't believe me? Then lets look back:

-23rd Tenkaichi Budokai: Goku and Chichi flying off to be married. How sweet.

-Cell Arc: Gohan becomes earth's protector as Goku looks on from the heavens, putting his faith in his son.

-Buu Arc: Goku flies off with his new apprentice getting to fight the reincarnation of his toughest foe.

I really don't think Toriyama would end the series with the Freeza Arc having most of the heroes dead. For those who played the second Goku den, the ending of the game leaves you with the cliffhanger of waiting on Goku but it is revealed that everyone is revived. I'm sure if they wanted to end the series with Goku dying on Namek, the others would be revived. If not, the Namek Arc would be completely pointless. For the record, Piccolo survived Freeza's blast because he is badass. There I said it.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:25 am

Well, we can also change the manner of the wish to fit the "lighter-noted" endings. You can change the wish that Kami and Mr. Popo made to "I wish all of the innocent people killed by Vegeta and Freeza were brought back to life." This way, the Z-senshi all live, Gohan makes it off of Namek from Goku's spaceship with Bulma and Kuririn, and have the ending of Goku dying, leaving the job up to Gohan.

OR!

Another way to look at it is if everyone else died, there would be no one else to protect Earth. And seeing how Gohan hates to fight, and only fights when he needs to, he MUST fight and train to protect Earth from an invasion or something.

Just my two cents.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:54 am

Saiyan wrote:leaving the job up to Gohan.

Piccolo.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:21 am

Olivier Hague wrote:That's the thing, the darkest events all occured in a parallel universe. Main characters who die. Like, for real. Whoa. We can't let that happen in our universe, no sir! And in the end? Of course it doesn't happen.

I don't know, I would personally say the Saiyan/Freeza arc is the darkest moment in the history of the series. Everybody's death is powerful (as opposed to a 3-second clip), and the whole thing revolves around a story of slavery and genocide. Also notice how there's no humor throughout the entire arc. Sure, the Ginyu Force is kinda funny...until they break Gohan's neck.

I think someone already pointed this out, but the ending is supposed to build to a climax. The series is silly at first because it's still establishing the characters, but as it progresses Goku grows and the stakes are raised. It may sound grim to have a handful of characters die, but it would actually be much more refreshing then what we got. Having characters constantly dying and regenerating kills the purpose of the show. They go to Namek to use the Namekian Dragonballs and they fail...it's a slap in the face, but it's a hell of a lot better then the revive, rinse and repeat cycle that we get into later. Besides, we know that there's an afterlife and such, so it's not the saddest ending ever.

Anyways, these are the differences I'd like to have seen...
- Saichourou (Guru) is not revived. That "died of stress" bit was clearly tacked on.
- Everybody remaining is wished back with Earth's Dragonballs OR they escape in Goku's space ship (this would be Gohan, Bulma and Piccolo).
- Piccolo survives Freeza's shot and recovers on Earth (similar to the series, just without Dende).
- Goku kills Freeza, and dies in Namek's explosion.
- Yamucha would most likely be wished back to live with Bulma, although I assume Tenshinhan would remain with Chaozu in the afterlife.

Ok, so 2 major characters remain dead out of necessity (Goku and Kuririn), but I think they fulfilled their purposes in life and would just go down as legendary men. I'd be much happier with this ending. I mean, the story is supposed to be like a legend, it doesn't need to go on forever with Goku dying of cancer at age 87 or whatever. His inner Saiyan was triggered by his best friends death, and he died saving the universe. It's not dark and grim, it's honorable and heroic.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:10 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Saiyan wrote:leaving the job up to Gohan.
Piccolo.

If that situation was brought up, I'm sure the story would be written with Piccolo staying on Namek to protect the others from a threat, especially the knowledge of Nail within him. Was Gohan really made to be like Clark Kent (Smallville) for the series? I mean when he is older he lives a normal life but fight when he has to and the giant glasses are a dead giveaway.

All in all, I really don't think a series starting with "no balls" jokes can end with the hero dying from a planet exploding. Even if he wanted to end the series with Freeza, I'm sure he wouldn't end it like that. He would probably take the Goku Den route...

b_boult · Post by **b_boult** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:00 pm

Rocketman wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote: Also, without the Buu arc, we never would've gotten movies 10 through 13. There's that, right?
I dunno, man. I'm willing to give up Hitler and Gogeta if it means Broly never comes back.

I'd be willing to give up every movie after 5. Movies 8,9,12 and 13 are monsterously overrated.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:51 pm

I'm not sure you realize how much the series was worth. Many people were depending on it going on. That's a lot of pressure (mainly from Tôei, actually, I'd think).

It was most likely the most popular comic/tv series in the world at one point. Which proves my point. Toriyama had just created two hugely popular shows/comics. I think its a safe bet to assume he was also a multi millionaire too. If he continued the series, its because he was still able to tell some good stories. Not because he was forced to continue.

Taku128 · Post by **Taku128** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:17 pm

b_boult wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote: Also, without the Buu arc, we never would've gotten movies 10 through 13. There's that, right?
I dunno, man. I'm willing to give up Hitler and Gogeta if it means Broly never comes back.
I'd be willing to give up every movie after 5. Movies 8,9,12 and 13 are monsterously overrated.

I don't think Movie 5 would have been the same. We'd have Gohan vs. Coola, which actually sounds pretty cool.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:20 pm

Just a quick note, but IF Piccolo HAD died and all the Dragon Balls were gone from that, NO ONE would have survived Namek. Not even Gohan and Bulma, as the ship was damaged during Namek's death throws earlier. So don't say the ending would have been just Gohan surviving, no in this alternate reality where the wishes dont come in to save everyone, NO ONE is saved. The survivors are Chi Chi, Puar, Oolong, and Master Roshi, and everyone else back on earth.

I can fully see Goku dying in a Freeza saga based ending (and by dying I mean permanently) - but losing the entire cast there including Gohan seems unlikely for Toriyama's style or the story up to that point (some have mentioned the history of trunks as proof DB could get that dark, but at that point that hadn't happened yet!)