Honorifics: Necessity or Fanboy/Wapanese Fodder?

[Olivier Hague]

I'm of the opinion that if something doesn't translate, keep in in Japanese.

But lots of things don't translate (honorifics are just the tip of the iceberg, really). Heck, I'm tempted to say "most of them." Japanese and English are just that different.
That's a lot of things you should keep in Japanese, really. And obviously, that's simply not an option...

And that by losing the honourifics, you lose part of the show.

By translating a show, you lose part of it. How much pretty much depends on how different the two languages are.
Translating from English to French, for example, isn't that big of an issue. Translating from Japanese to English, on the other hand...

"Traduttore, traditore", as they say.

[Casual Matt]

Too true, but losing the honourifics is losing that much more.

And while translations can be downright difficult at times, most things have some way of expressing the same idea in English.

Except for -san to Mister, -sama to Lord, and perhaps a few others, it's hard to really give the same sense of honourifics, and much use of something like -san is awkward in the context of Mister.

Can you imagine someone calling their husband Mistah Goku?

[kinoko]

Wapanese is a derogatory term similar to 'Wigger' and is a combination of 'White' and 'Japanese'. In the same way Wigger is used to describe a white person who tends to act in an exajerated manner to be black, people are called 'Wapanese' when they display the characteristics of a cliche anime fan; in this case, he is refering to the aspect of using Japanese words in English conversation, specifically using said honorifics in English when some would deem them out of place.

Suffice to say, it's not exactly a nice word.

Ah, that is quite mean. ^^;;;;; But thanks for the explanation! +feels in the know+

[Olivier Hague]

Except for -san to Mister, -sama to Lord, and perhaps a few others, it's hard to really give the same sense of honourifics, and much use of something like -san is awkward in the context of Mister.

Because it doesn't really mean "mister". There's no 1:1 English translation. It's a Japanese concept, and it's not necessarily easy to explain to English-speaking people.
Of course it would be great if English readers could "get" all that when they read their translated manga... but that's simply not possible. Or it would have to be so riddled with notes that it would become an actual Japanese (language and culture) lesson... ^^;

[KinoFourpaws]

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

Ooh do you want to make your own dub? Once you make it I'll be sure to critizize you for every tiny mistake you make.

Go over to the " Room 29 Dub" thread and see how hard it is to do this kind of stuff.

Oh, no no no... don't invite him to look at the project. The only way I would be at all comfortable with his having to do anything about our fan dub is if he promised not to be a jackass about stuff like our script, our choice of cast, etc. If he can be civil in regards to what we're doing, then it won't be a problem, but really... he doesn't have a very good track record regarding dubs, honestly. >_<;

Okay, as far as the actual topic goes... I really have no problem with Japanese honorifics not finding their way into a foreign-language translation for anime or manga. As long as the scriptwriters do their best to accomodate for their meaning in the dub (like switching them out for their English/whatever equivalents, like "Mr. Piccolo" for "Piccolo-san"), a dub can get on fine without it. I get the notion that we want to preserve as much of the original feel of the story and the character interaction as possible, but having to hear something like "Freeza-sama" or "Gohan-chan" in an otherwise English dub/manga translation, as accurate as it is, would come off kind of strange. There's no dire need for it, so why prefer those over things like "King Kai", etc.? o_o;

As far as subtitles, go, though, that's a different story. In this case you would WANT to communicate subtle stuff like this. That way, people who can't really speak or understand Japanese, but who want to take a closer look at what exactly the characters are saying, can appreciate the details these honorifics lend to the people they're used towards. I'm not all against translating their meaning even in subtitles ("Lord Kai" instead of "Kaio-sama", for instance, I don't find any reason to be offended by), but if you want to get familiar with the anime in all of its original glory, having subtitles with honorifics seems to me the ideal way to go.

Really, though, one way or the other, I don't mind how the subtitle issue goes. You can replace those things in there and you can still have an good translation. I think the issue of accuracy in subtitling extends far, FAR beyond the simple decision of whether or not honorifics are included... o__O

Except for -san to Mister, -sama to Lord, and perhaps a few others, it's hard to really give the same sense of honourifics, and much use of something like -san is awkward in the context of Mister.

Because it doesn't really mean "mister". There's no 1:1 English translation. It's a Japanese concept, and it's not necessarily easy to explain to English-speaking people.
Of course it would be great if English readers could "get" all that when they read their translated manga... but that's simply not possible. Or it would have to be so riddled with notes that it would become an actual Japanese (language and culture) lesson... ^^;

I actually don't see how that's so difficult to explain. The raw translation of -san, I believe, means something along the lines of "honorable", and it's used to respectfully address elders or superiors in much the same way as we in English would address those kinds of people as "Mrs." or "Mr." Perhaps a more formal way of translating it would be in the form of "Sir Such-and-Such" or "Madame/Lady Such-and-Such", though while no less correct, can still sound a bit TOO formal (and thus awkward). That's probably also why we English-speakers DON'T translate "whatever-san" as "venerable-whatever"; it actually comes off just as awkward in a social situation.

Also, as far as notes in manga go for that kind of stuff... I would rather have the space over/underneath or between panels littered with them than have, say, a separate section for them entirely in the back of the book. It's difficult for me to have to flip back-and-forth to see what specific words or sound effects mean in English... I mean, hot damn, I just wanna read the story... @_@;

[desirecampbell]

Except for -san to Mister, -sama to Lord, and perhaps a few others, it's hard to really give the same sense of honourifics, and much use of something like -san is awkward in the context of Mister.

That's just my point. There aren't direct translations for these words. If the intention is to translate the script so that the viewer "gets the same feel" that a Japanese viewer does, that's called "localization" - a completely different action then "translation".

A complete translation would be: "Mistah Goku, please take Rice Dish with you and Underpants." "Yeah, come on, Son-boy."

A less complete translation would be: "Goku-sa, please take Gohan with you and Bulma." "Yeah, come on Son-kun."

And a localization could be: "John, honey, please take Jimmy with you and Lucy" "Yeah, come on, Smithy."


A Japanese viewer would know what 'Gohan' and 'Bulma' meant, he would have understood what "-sa" and "-kun" meant.
If the point is to translate the script fully, then that's what happen. It seems rather odd to an English viewer, though.
If the point is to translate the script and give the English viewer the same "feeling" a Japanese viewer would, then "-sa", a term of endearment from a wife, would be best localized as "honey" (for western audiences, perhaps Brits or Aussies would use a different term) and "-kun", a term of endearment from a long-time friend, would best localize as a change in the name (again, I'm assuming a western audience, other locales may be different). And, obviously, names need to be changed - we can't keep weird Japanese names, and translating them would be confusing as well.
And that's the problem with localization. You always lose a lot of the original script. In keeping the "feeling" you lose the nuances, or the jokes get changed, or something else with more than a single meaning is lost.


I, for one, can't think that keeping honourifics would be that confusing, really. If the viewer didn't know what they were, he'd probably just ignore them, and then he'd get the same experience as if they were dropped.

[KinoFourpaws]

And, obviously, names need to be changed - we can't keep weird Japanese names, and translating them would be confusing as well.
And that's the problem with localization. You always lose a lot of the original script. In keeping the "feeling" you lose the nuances, or the jokes get changed, or something else with more than a single meaning is lost.

Actually, considering how many weird names I've actually seen get used here in the States ("Apple", "Lakisha", "Harvey", etc.), I don't think the name changes would really be that necessary. We've got weird enough names here; why not host a few more while we're at it? The jokes behind the names would be more obscured, sure, but not so much that one can't just dig them up if one were interested.

And, actually, localizing the name "Son" as Bulma uses it to something like "Sonny" doesn't seem that far-fetched an idea to me.

[Olivier Hague]

The raw translation of -san, I believe, means something along the lines of "honorable", and it's used to respectfully address elders or superiors in much the same way as we in English would address those kinds of people as "Mrs." or "Mr."

Well, not really, no. Considering you can have a kid calling another kid "-san" just because he's *gasp* one year older, for example. Now, that's hardly a "mister", in English.

If the intention is to translate the script so that the viewer "gets the same feel" that a Japanese viewer does, that's called "localization" - a completely different action then "translation".

But translations of comics or anime should be localisations! Heck, it's not uncommon for publishers to pay two guys for the job : one for the translation, and the other for the localisation.

A complete translation would be: "Mistah Goku, please take Rice Dish with you and Underpants." "Yeah, come on, Son-boy."

A less complete translation would be: "Goku-sa, please take Gohan with you and Bulma." "Yeah, come on Son-kun."

And a localization could be: "John, honey, please take Jimmy with you and Lucy" "Yeah, come on, Smithy."

...
I'm just hoping you're not serious about all that...

If the point is to translate the script and give the English viewer the same "feeling" a Japanese viewer would

Well, yes, it is. Obviously (?)

obviously, names need to be changed - we can't keep weird Japanese names

Of course we can. Don't be ridiculous.
You sound like you've never read an English translation of a foreign novel...

that's the problem with localization. You always lose a lot of the original script. In keeping the "feeling" you lose the nuances

Sorry, but you're simply not making sense... When you try to keep the feeling, you try to keep the nuances. It's the same thing.
The problem is that more often than not, these nuances won't be expressed in the same manner, because, well, different languages. That. Can't. Be. Helped.

I, for one, can't think that keeping honourifics would be that confusing, really. If the viewer didn't know what they were

... and you should assume he didn't. It's Japanese, for God's sake! ^^;

he'd probably just ignore them, and then he'd get the same experience as if they were dropped.

Yeah, I'm sure he'd just ignore the "gibberish"...
And "the same experience as if they were dropped"? Just dropped?

I'm afraid you don't quite understand how that job works...

[desirecampbell]

Actually, considering how many weird names I've actually seen get used here in the States ("Apple", "Lakisha", "Harvey", etc.)

"Harvey" is weird?

And, actually, localizing the name "Son" as Bulma uses it to something like "Sonny" doesn't seem that far-fetched an idea to me.

changing a name from 'Smith' to 'Smithy' is a pretty common practice, I think. Though I don't remember any being used for honourifics, in Gundam Seed the annoying little robot-bird named "tori'i" is dubbed "birdy". I think that's pretty good.

[KinoFourpaws]

The raw translation of -san, I believe, means something along the lines of "honorable", and it's used to respectfully address elders or superiors in much the same way as we in English would address those kinds of people as "Mrs." or "Mr."

Well, not really, no. Considering you can have a kid calling another kid "-san" just because he's *gasp* one year older, for example. Now, that's hardly a "mister", in English.

Well, keep in mind, the Japanese have a society that is FAR more formal and polite than most of us Westerners have. An American kid wouldn't bother using something so polite when talking about/to an older kid anyway, but a Japanese kid has to. That usage of the term just doesn't translate well to our language, unfortunately, if only because of the difference in our social structure.

I think that's kind of unfair an analogy you just gave... :/

Actually, considering how many weird names I've actually seen get used here in the States ("Apple", "Lakisha", "Harvey", etc.)

"Harvey" is weird?

Well, it is once you hear your uncle's explanation for using that name for his newborn daughter... >__>;

(Seriously, though, have you looked up the word? Uncle's strange reasoning aside, the meaning behind it makes one kind of wonder what the hell it is a parent was thinking when they named their kid that... D: )

EDIT: Hmm, well... alright, maybe the meaning I thought it had is a kind of obscure one, or it's the meaning for an entirely different word altogether... but yeah, considering it was suggested for a girl, that alone should be kind of strange. (Don't ask what my uncle's suggestion for the rest of her name be... @___@; )

Okay, getting off-topic here; sorry about that. >_<;

[Olivier Hague]

Well, keep in mind, the Japanese have a society that is FAR more formal and polite than most of us Westerners have. An American kid wouldn't bother using something so polite when talking about/to an older kid anyway, but a Japanese kid has to. That usage of the term just doesn't translate well to our language, unfortunately, if only because of the difference in our social structure.

Sure, but should a translator expect the reader to know all that?

I think that's kind of unfair an analogy you just gave... :/

It's actually a fairly common example. I get those all the time. ^^;
"-San" may also be used within a married couple. That's yet another case where it's not "mister".

If you want translators to keep the honorifics so that you don't lose information:
1) you should know that you will lose information elsewhere anyway (again, honorifics are just the tip of the iceberg),
2) that's a lot of honorifics for you to learn,
3) are you sure you really know what these honorifics mean in the first place?
desirecampbell said that "-sa" (as in Chi-chi's "Gokû sa") was "a term of endearment from a wife"... but does he know that Chi-chi also says "Piccolo sa"? 'Guess that's not really it, then.

[caejones]

"Son Goku" / "Goku Son" ... I don't think I ever heard either of these in any English dub of the show available in the US. Granted, I don't think I know of many other dubs that completely drop half a person's name (change it maybe, but drop it no...). That just strikes me as ... odd.


The thing with Japanese is that it's a very context-based language, is it not? Words have completely different meanings depending on the topic, the people that are talking, etc. So theoretically, there could be somewhat accurate translations for some things... but as a whole it's hard to tell, because each situation is unique?
... For some reason this reminds me of how my cousin uses a lot of pronouns in continuing a topic that was interrupted and broken off a while in the past and expects people to know what he's talking about despite the fact that he is easily distracted... "Why did that one guy take his stuff?" At some random moment while traveling somewhere...

[Mystery Person X]

To sum up my argument.

A good translation:
a) conveys as much of possible of the meaning of the original dialogue;
b) does so using coherent and standard English wherever possible (except where the original dialogue was slang, etc.)

Retaining honorifics fails at both of these things. Words that had no significance in the original dialogue shouldn't be treated as super-important parts of the original script, to be revered and kept intact at all cost. It's impossible to get the exact same feeling in the English viewer as in the Japanese viewer, but that doesn't mean you should go out of your way to give them a different impression

When they did have significance in the original dialogue, an attempt should be made to find a workable English equivalent, for the exact same reason that the word "hai" should be translated.

Leaving the honorifics intact should be a last resort. Still, I agree that it is a necessary choice in some cases - and so, as with all other cases of leaving Japanese in the subtitles, my argument applies within reason. No one thinks a good translation involves routine name changes, so stop it with the fallacious slippery slopes.

Incidentally, "Mistah Goku" is a horrible translation of Goku-sa, and "Rice Dish" is a horrible translation of Gohan. Please don't ever attempt a "complete translation" again.

In keeping the "feeling" you lose the nuances

If you still fail to see why including honorifics often results in totally losing the nuance they had (the nuance in question: invisible reflection of what was obvious already), I guess I should give up before we spend too much longer going in circles.

[Mystery Person X]

desirecampbell said that "-sa" (as in Chi-chi's "Gokû sa") was "a term of endearment from a wife"... but does he know that Chi-chi also says "Piccolo sa"? 'Guess that's not really it, then.

Yeah, as far as I can tell, "-sa" is just Chichi's (and Gyumao's if I remember correctly) hicktastic way of saying "-san". Whether it's unique to DB or from an actual dialect, I have no idea.

[Olivier Hague]

as far as I can tell, "-sa" is just Chichi's (and Gyumao's if I remember correctly) hicktastic way of saying "-san".

Yeah, I think so too.

Whether it's unique to DB or from an actual dialect, I have no idea.

And I don't know either.
(how's that for a constructive message, huh?)

From what I can tell, even the Japanese readers don't really know. The same "-sa" appears in Arale's speech, so it may be something Toriyama made up...
As for the rest of Gyûmaô and Chi-chi's dialect, I've seen a Japanese reader saying it was a mix of at least two existing Japanese dialects. If that's true, I guess you could say it's "more or less" an original creation?

[Sebastian (SB)]

While I understand what most of ya are sayin', I still feel that Dragon Ball, in general, loses some of its Asian influence in the process. I really don't feel much of that in it's english translation, but hey I suppose that's why there's the subs for me. Based on what Mystery Person X argues, if that really is so, then I feel they'll never be a correct translation (or dub overall). Which so is exactly why I'm a purist.

[Olivier Hague]

Based on what Mystery Person X argues, if that really is so, then I feel they'll never be a correct translation (or dub overall). Which so is exactly why I'm a purist.

If you're a purist... you kinda have to learn the language. Inconvenient, sure, but... ^^;

[Sebastian (SB)]

Yea, I'm workin' on that, but that's why I have Daimao's stuff until then

[Super Sonic]

Incidentally, "Mistah Goku" is a horrible translation of Goku-sa, and "Rice Dish" is a horrible translation of Gohan. Please don't ever attempt a "complete translation" again.

That can be true, even for normal sounding translated names as well. A buddy of mine was pissed that Tokyopop called Sumomo "Plum" in the Chobits manga even though he found out that Sumomo=Plum. And I admit I was weirded oout by their calling Sailor Moon "Bunny".

[Rocketman]

That can be true, even for normal sounding translated names as well. A buddy of mine was pissed that Tokyopop called Sumomo "Plum" in the Chobits manga even though he found out that Sumomo=Plum. And I admit I was weirded oout by their calling Sailor Moon "Bunny".

Bunny? Isn't her name Selene?