Honorifics: Necessity or Fanboy/Wapanese Fodder?

[MajinVejitaXV]

I've always wondered about this, and a recent article I was reading by a translator who detested the demand for honorifics in manga/anime and so forth makes me wonder: Are honorifics really needed, or are they just there to make obsessive fanboys happy?

I've seen cases where honorifics were translated (Kaiosama becomes Lord Kaio, Piccolo-san becomes Mr. Piccolo) and others where they are retained. Personally, I appreciate the honorifics in some ways (the fact that Goku hardly uses them goes to reinforce his innocence/ignorance, and I remember a scene where Piccolo refers to Kaiosama as 'Kaio' only to be quickly corrected), but can understand why it's odd in some cases.

For instance, the use of the honorific '-taijin' in Cowboy Bebop (both in the dub and subs) left me a bit lost the first time I saw it, as I was unfamiliar with it. Also, I can understand how some would wonder why a translation shouldn't 'translate' certain words and think that its simply a tactic to appease the "We don't know Japanese, but we know a few common words/phrases/honorifics"-crowd.

I could go either way, myself. Translations are greatly dependent on the translator of course, and if things are done competantly I can see honorifics being omitted. I do appreciate seeing them as a person who endeavors to learn Japanese myself also, though I'm very far removed from those who wander around speaking in choice 'Wapanese' to friends and family (and answer telephones with an ecstatic "Bug-bug!" ). I guess it just depends on a number of factors (though in all honesty you can blatantly hear the honorifics, such as -san, -sama, -kun, etc. anyway so it doesn't bother me if they're translated as opposed to transliterated).

What do you guys think?

-Corey

[Rocketman]

If you're going to translate, then translate it all. If it has no good English analogue, use the JP, but otherwise, go with "Lord/King Kai" and "Mr. Piccolo", etc.

[Kaboom]

I agree. Use english equivalents to things if at all possible.

The exception, IMO, would be series that are distinctly and extremely old-timey Japanese in nature, such as Rurouni Kenshin, and even ones like Naruto ("-sensei" is used a lot in Viz's dub).

[Rocketman]

I agree. Use english equivalents to things if at all possible.

The exception, IMO, would be series that are distinctly and extremely old-timey Japanese in nature, such as Rurouni Kenshin, and even ones like Naruto ("-sensei" is used a lot in Viz's dub).

"Sensei" has practically been absorbed into English, though.

[The S]

and answer telephones with an ecstatic "Bug-bug!"

God it bothers me when people say "mushi mushi" instead of "moshi moshi".

[Maphisto86]

I think the decision whether to translate certain words into english manga should be based on the context. What I'm trying to say is that some honorifics are quite detailed descriptions of a person's character or are markers of gender. Others can be considered short titles one would expect to translate like "king", "lord", "master", etc. Japanese is a very complex language that has honorifics than go into great description of something using only one word. It really is up to the translator but an english audience member like myself will probably not have much knowledge of Japanese and so the title might just be a waste of space on the page. In conclusion I do not think honorifics are necessary unless they are truly needed or the supplemental translation just doesen't cut it (which is more often than not).

[Domon]

I had my share of thoughts on the issue. On one level, I do like seeing honorifics in translations, and in some contexts, it's important to leave them in(like if how a character is addressed is part of a scene or the story). On the other hand, it does get overdone sometime(like on fanfiction and message boards) where it seems like every other word is Japanese, rather than the equivalent english word. Of course, if there is no equivalent english word, then yeah, I'm for the Japanese word/phrase.

But on another level, I don't really mind not seeing them in, since a translation is suppose to provide the dialogue in english and should look/should natural in that language. Honorifics like -chan and -kun are not what we would see in an english sentence, and in that sense, don't really belong in there, not to mention that usage of such honorifics might make things less accessable to the uninitiated. Beside which, I can hear the honorifics anyway.

[desirecampbell]

I could go on for a while about how I think anime and manga should be translated, but about honourifics specifically:

Leave 'em in.

They're a part of Japanese speech and taking them out can change the meaning of a sentence. If the worry is that some viewers may not know what they mean, then include explanations as necessary (as many fansubs and scanlations do now), or a glossary at the back of the volume or DVD booklet.

Think of them like military terms, or poker terms. What's "Colonel" mean? How many stripes does he get? Does a full house beat a straight? What's The difference between a flush and a royal flush? Maybe you don't know these specific terms, but it's not really too much trouble to explain it.

[Mr.Piccolo]

I say leave them in. At least this way, we have a better understanding of how the show actually was. I mean, if you change the honorifics, that'll make other changes seem necessary like character names and titles. Djinn.
-Rick

[mAcChaos]

I think they should be translated. I don't mind hearing "san" but they all translate pretty nicely. I always liked "Mr. Piccolo" from Gohan, and "Lord Kaio," "Lord Freeza," etc. They have translations just like all the other words. Since we're translating it's obvious we should use their English equivalents.

[Deus ex Machina]

My choice would be to leave them in for subtitles and manga translations. Certain things just don't translate very well into english, and honorifics are one of those things that can be easily mistranslated if not presented "as-is". (Mr. Popo screaming "KAMI-SAAAAN!" jumps to mind...)

Besides, it's a Japansese product to begin with. It doesn't take an english viewer very long to learn a handful of common honoriffics, or to read right to left.

[Duo]

I like honorifics. They help explain character relationships and various other things. They threw me off at first, but it's not hard to learn the basics.

[GI_Judd2287]

Honorifics never really mattered to me. They could call him Lord Kaio or Kaio-sama and I'd be happy. But from a marketing perspective if you're going to present something to a foreign audience, you might want the word usage to reflect that culture.

[Kirbopher]

Well, it depends. For shows that are being put on TV, -sensei could work, but the rest would probably be better off being left out. However, I unless the character is really THAT much older than someone, translating -san as Miss, Mr. or Mrs. doesn't always sound good. I liked the Azumanga Daioh dub, except for everyone calling a girl in their same class MISS Sakaki. It's a little awkward.

In other cases though, like for shows that the dubbing agencies KNOW are a little too 'out there' (for lack of better term @.@) to put on a common channel like Cartoon Network, it kinda works. In the same case, like with Azumanga Daioh, I didn't mind them calling her Chiyo-chan. Though in some cases it will work when it's SORT of translated. Exmaple like that are "Little Nurumi" (Nurumi-chan) for Spiral, when the villain characters talk down to Ayumu Narumi. Then there's also "Kenny" for Viz's translation for Bleach, as Yachiru calls Kenpachi 'Ken-chan'.

Even more interesting, as I noticed this and immediately flashbacked to the discussion of Daimao's translation of "Itadekimasu" (apologies if I spelt that wrong >_>;) as "what I humbly accept". Moon Phase was the first time I've EVER seen a dub keep "Itadekimasu" as a raw Japanese word (some characters also reffered to the cat-ears as "nekomimi"). In that case I didn't mind so much, BECAUSE I'm kinda part of the "We don't know Japanese, but we know a few common words/phrases/honorifics"-crowd that good sir Corey has reffered too XD;

[aarondirebear]

Honorifics should be kept in.
They sound better.
Plus there isnt an English equivalent to Kun, Chan, Chama, Tama, -e, or uesama.

[Rocketman]

I like honorifics. They help explain character relationships and various other things.

And addressing a being as "Lord" doesn't?

[Super Sonic]

With Honorifics, it depends I believe. Some translations are ok, but others, like Media Blasters translating "-dono" as "Miss or Sir" doesn't sound so great.

[Maphisto86]

Yes I have to agree with the idea of leaving them in now. Campbell, Duo, Mr. Piccolo and others make good points in my mind. Since we already have the page layout the same it would be another learning experience to learn about the honorifics. At least it should be romanized. Kanji might not work while reading english...

[desirecampbell]

Well, it depends. For shows that are being put on TV, -sensei could work, but the rest would probably be better off being left out. However, I unless the character is really THAT much older than someone, translating -san as Miss, Mr. or Mrs. doesn't always sound good. I liked the Azumanga Daioh dub, except for everyone calling a girl in their same class MISS Sakaki. It's a little awkward.

Exactly. It sounds awkward because it's a completely different culture. It's just that that 'culture' thing needs to be kept in or the story changes (granted, some stories hinge more on character relations than others, but still - change is change). If translating something will confuse the reader just as much as not translating it, and translating the word may leave out some extra meaning; then don't translate it.

[Kirbopher]

There's a (VERY. VERY. VEEEEERY BAAAAD) dub of Rockman.EXE (Megaman NT Warrior) in Singapore, that's prettymuch a direct translation of the Japanese version spoken in english. The mother of the main character reffers to her husband as "Mr. Yuichiro"...eeeeyeah, no.