Question about Cell stealing his time machine.

[Xyex]

And where does the time machine go? What about the circumstances of your return? You go back in the future with your time-machine, there's a flash a Convenience Magic, and "somehow" you're immediately teleported in your future sofa, watching future stupid cartoons, "the way it should be"? And right before that, what was in that sofa? Another you? Where did he go, then? Or was that a "you-shaped-hole"? A "nothing" that was born, raised by his parents and went to school, despite his little "non-existence" issue? Whuh?
Does the timeline do all that? Damn, it's good. Like sentient-good. Like fairy godmother-good. Does it also magically send the time machine to a junkyard, while it's at it? ^^;

Hey, I never said it was a great theory.

I think, if it's anything like that, you would cease to exist upon trying to return to your time. You'd get 'overwritten' just like everyone else.

Could you explain how and why each of them are created? Could you explain why Trunks only creates only

one

new timeline when he goes several times in the past?

I have explained it, more than once, you just don't want to accept it.

[Olivier Hague]

Hey, I never said it was a great theory.

If it doesn't work, it certainly isn't a great theory. ^^;

I think, if it's anything like that, you would cease to exist upon trying to return to your time. You'd get 'overwritten' just like everyone else.

Meh.
I think you're just better off using multiple timelines, in time travel stories.
Using an unique timeline is cumbersome. You need to take some fairly extreme measures to make the whole thing work, narratively (like the apocalypse in "12 Monkeys", again). And even then, it's still difficult, and kind of a one-trick poney ("so they didn't change anything by going into the past, huh? and they went into the past because they were meant to in the first place? OK, I'm depressed, now").

I have explained it, more than once, you just don't want to accept it.

If that's one of the things we discussed earlier in that other topic, yeah, I guess I'm just not convinced.

[Dayspring]

There can only be four timelines if we assume that the Trunks from Cell's timeline was making his first trip to the past when Cell stole his machine. This may not make much sense, but if we assume that discrepencies in the timelines cause this, it not only makes sense, but explains why Cell's time machine was programmed for 763 instead of 764. To explain the missing androids in this timeline, chalk it up to Trunks training for an unknown amount of time during that 3 years, 8 months period and then destroying them under his own power.

Otherwise we end up with SEVEN timelines: Trunks from TL2 goes back in time, creating TL1. He returns, charges the machine, and goes back to TL1, creating TL3. Trunks from TL3 goes back in time, creating TL4. He returns, charges machine, and goes back to TL4, creating a never seen TL5. He returns, gets killed by Cell, who goes back to TL1, creating a never seen TL6. Cell dies, Trunks returns to TL2, charges machine while killing his androids and Cell, and returns to TL1, creating a never seen TL7.




Here's a theory that explains the Cell games in the daizenshuu's fourth timeline:

1) Trunks from TL3 goes back in time, creating TL4. He returns to TL3, charges the machine, and returns to TL4, creating TL2.

2) Gero activates #17 and #18. Trunks finds the blueprints, however, so he returns to his time and Bulma makes a remote to destroy the androids in their time. For reasons unknown (timeline discrepencies?), Trunks doesn't know/care that going back would create yet another timeline, ie: wouldn't alter the events of TL4. He decides to go back in time a year prior to the androids activation and destroy them before anything can happen.

3) Trunks doesn't get a chance to go back in time, as Cell has killed him. Cell does go back, however, creating TL1.

4) Trunks from TL2 makes his trips to TL1, explaining his presence there. Each makes a new timeline, but they have no impact on the story so they aren't mentioned in the daizenshuu. However, one of these timelines is now responsible for the presence of a future Cell in TL4. Since TL3 Trunks left before destroying TL4's androids, this future Cell obtains perfect form.

[Olivier Hague]

There can only be four timelines if we assume that the Trunks from Cell's timeline was making his first trip to the past when Cell stole his machine. This may not make much sense, but if we assume that discrepencies in the timelines cause this, it not only makes sense, but explains why Cell's time machine was programmed for 763 instead of 764. To explain the missing androids in this timeline, chalk it up to Trunks training for an unknown amount of time during that 3 years, 8 months period and then destroying them under his own power.

Sorry, not buying it! ^^;

4) Trunks from TL2 makes his trips to TL1, explaining his presence there.

But why? Why would he appear in that timeline?
I'm having a hard time trying to come up with "rules" explaining why the time travellers would appear in some timelines and not others...

[Dayspring]

There can only be four timelines if we assume that the Trunks from Cell's timeline was making his first trip to the past when Cell stole his machine. This may not make much sense, but if we assume that discrepencies in the timelines cause this, it not only makes sense, but explains why Cell's time machine was programmed for 763 instead of 764. To explain the missing androids in this timeline, chalk it up to Trunks training for an unknown amount of time during that 3 years, 8 months period and then destroying them under his own power.

Sorry, not buying it! ^^;

Exactly. Too many damn ifs. That's why I agree with you in that there are much more than four timelines max.

4) Trunks from TL2 makes his trips to TL1, explaining his presence there.

But why? Why would he appear in that timeline?
I'm having a hard time trying to come up with "rules" explaining why the time travellers would appear in some timelines and not others...

...Why on Earth should they affect every timeline? They go back and only affect the timeline they create.

[Olivier Hague]

4) Trunks from TL2 makes his trips to TL1, explaining his presence there.

But why? Why would he appear in that timeline?
I'm having a hard time trying to come up with "rules" explaining why the time travellers would appear in some timelines and not others...

...Why on Earth should they affect every timeline? They go back and only affect the timeline they create.

That's the thing: why would Trunks from TL2 affect TL1, the timeline newly created by Cell?

[Dayspring]

But why? Why would he appear in that timeline?
I'm having a hard time trying to come up with "rules" explaining why the time travellers would appear in some timelines and not others...

...Why on Earth should they affect every timeline? They go back and only affect the timeline they create.

That's the thing: why would Trunks from TL2 affect TL1, the timeline newly created by Cell?

...Because he didn't know Cell was already there? What are you asking?

[Strongbad456]

I'm gonna post what I think . I believe that there are about 3 timelines. Cell's, Trunks', and the main one. Cell's time is about 3 years ahead of Trunk's time so it's a bit different. In that time Trunks hadn't gone back in time yet and had probably trained all that time until he could beat the Androids. Once he did he decided to take the time machine back but when he was about to go he was killed by Cell. This caused the time of the Trunks that we know to change. He ended up going back in time about 3 years earlier than he would have and thus the events of the Android saga and Cell saga happen. After everything Trunks goes back to his time where Cell there is just arriving to look for the Androids. Trunks kills him and lives happily ever after. Makes more sense than some of theories I've read.

[Olivier Hague]

why would Trunks from TL2 affect TL1, the timeline newly created by Cell?

...Because he didn't know Cell was already there?

But it's not like he "picked" the timeline he wanted to end up in, right? ^^;

What are you asking?

I'm just pointing out what appears to be a contradiction to me. You just said "they go back and only affect the timeline they create", but in your explanation, Trunks affects a timeline he didn't create.

Please don't take it as harsh criticism or anything, really: like I said, I'm having a hard time coming up with "time travel rules" that would work and make sense, here...

[desirecampbell]

I'm having trouble understanding your theory too, Dayspring.

- What are the rules for which timeline one would reach, and why?

- How do the timelines separate? Do they fork? Do they split into completely discrete dimensions? Or are there only a certain number of timelines that cannot be split, and the time machines simply jump between them?

- When does one create a new timeline, and why?

[Thanos6]

Here's my theory:

You create a new timeline whenever you jump back in time for the first time, and whenever you go further back in time. Otherwise, you don't split off a new one but just stay in the one you already created.

[desirecampbell]

Here's my theory:

You create a new timeline whenever you jump back in time for the first time, and whenever you go further back in time. Otherwise, you don't split off a new one but just stay in the one you already created.

Why? Why is it different? Why would A cause B sometimes?

[Xyex]

Here's my theory:

You create a new timeline whenever you jump back in time for the first time, and whenever you go further back in time. Otherwise, you don't split off a new one but just stay in the one you already created.

Why? Why is it different? Why would A cause B sometimes?

Why would dropping a boulder in one part of a river cause it to become two but dropping the same boulder in another part not cause it to become two?

That aside, I'm with Thanos here. You only create a new time-line when you enter a time-line you are not part of. By going back in time the first time you cause the time-line to diverge to allow the existance of one where you do not appear and to allow the existance of the time-line were you are there.

Then, you go home. Later, you go back and re-enter the time-line you created before. Because you created this time-line it doesn't 'reject' your presence and force you off into another time-line. It just lets you in, just as your own time-line does upon returning home.

Really, it's the most simple and logical explanation.

[Thanos6]

Xyex, you said it a lot better than I could. I could kiss you.

[Dayspring]

Ok, I'm just going to throw some stuff out there since I'm confused now:

1) Going back in time creates, no matter who goes back or to when, ALWAYS creates a new timeline. This is the only thing we know for a fact from Trunks' explanation (aside from point 2).

2) You cannot change your timeline's past at all. My theory here is because you always enter the timeline-branch that you create.

3) There is no supporting evidence that returning to the future creates a new timeline. My personal theory on this matter is that the time machine just goes back to its point of origin. IE: It's simply making the trip in reverse when returning, allowing it to return to its original timeline.

4) It's possible to end up in a timeline created by another time traveler through pure coincidence (I thought this was self-evident since Trunks ended up in Cell's altered timeline and they didn't expect each other). However, this splits that altered timeline in two, one with the only original time traveler only and one with both.

5) Time travelers, unbeknowest to them, always branch off a random timeline's past. In other words, when going to the past, they end up in a random timeline. This is why one Trunks fears temporal paradoxes and warns of #19 and #20, whereas the Trunks appearing three years later has never heard of them. Both gave the medicine to Goku, but to two different Goku's and never realized it.

6) Time traveling in-of-itself doesn't create discrepencies in the timeline as Trunks believes. Each branch has its own unique features because the timeline it's derived from isn't altered by the time traveler. EX: The androids in Trunks' era are more evil, according to Toriyama, because their parents were killed by some of Freeza's goons prior to his arrival on Earth.

7) Tapion sucks. Trunks for the win.

[Conan the SSJ]

1) Going back in time creates, no matter who goes back or to when, ALWAYS creates a new timeline. This is the only thing we know for a fact from Trunks' explanation (aside from point 2).

Let's just say it's open to interpretation, shall we? IIRC, Trunks only establishes that a new timeline is created when one travels further back to the past than the one they've already gone to. IIRC also, the Daizenshuu only lists there being 4 timelines. These reasons, among others, are why I'm on the same boat as Thanos and Xyex. Now you guys got me ready to slouch my weekend away by creating my own timeline video.

[Dayspring]

1) Going back in time creates, no matter who goes back or to when, ALWAYS creates a new timeline. This is the only thing we know for a fact from Trunks' explanation (aside from point 2).

Let's just say it's open to interpretation, shall we? IIRC, Trunks only establishes that a new timeline is created when one travels further back to the past than the one they've already gone to.

No he doesn't. He suggests going back prior to when the androids were activated, not prior to giving Goku the medicine.

[Olivier Hague]

Why would dropping a boulder in one part of a river cause it to become two but dropping the same boulder in another part not cause it to become two?

Well, that didn't help much... ^^;

You only create a new time-line when you enter a time-line you are not part of. By going back in time the first time you cause the time-line to diverge to allow the existance of one where you do not appear and to allow the existance of the time-line were you are there.

Then, you go home. Later, you go back and re-enter the time-line you created before. Because you created this time-line it doesn't 'reject' your presence and force you off into another time-line. It just lets you in, just as your own time-line does upon returning home.

Really, it's the most simple and logical explanation.

I don't know about "logical", really... It allows paradoxes, for one thing.

[Conan the SSJ]

No he doesn't. He suggests going back prior to when the androids were activated, not prior to giving Goku the medicine.

But you see...he's implying that going back further than when he just arrived for the second time in this past, in order to destroy Gero's lab, is what'll create another timeline. With Gohan's help, he fully figures out that the further one goes back than when they've already traveled to the past, a new timeline is created. That's all that's established. As said, Trunks implies going further back before he'd just arrived to destroy the Androids while they're still asleep, hence creating another timeline by going further back than when he came back for the second time. That's all that's established; to the best of my knowledge, it isn't established to an any better extent that a new timeline is created when Trunks travels further up the past he's visiting. I really hope I'm making some sense to you guys. *tinkers away on his timeline vid*

[caejones]

O.O *headdesk*.

So the main problem we have is that we don't know how two time travelers can exist in the same timeline?

Crap, now I want to make a list of timeline branches.

This would work if the Trunks in the Cell Games was the Trunks killed by Cell. The only problem is... he isn't. No wait... that doesn't work either because the time machine would go to the timeline that it will always visit even if it hasn't visited it yet and... ... ... ... *head explodes*.


The manga/anime timeline (I will hence forth refer to it as the Z timeline) was influenced by Cell and Trunks². So far as I can tell only the Daizenshuu mention of a Cell Games in timeline 4 requires more than one time-traveling Cell, but if that's ignored...
Ah, I'm going to go out on a limb again with speculation and say that since Cell's time machine was still in the Z-Timeline, it was possible for Trunks to enter it multiple times, but since Cell going there required that Trunks went there before, but to a time when Cell hadn't gone there (otherwise we have a paradox), we have to have another timeline where Trunks arrived but Cell didn't, and therefore a timeline where Cell killed Trunks and one where he didn't. So four timelines. Then our only problem is Trunks reappearing in timeline4, which works if the time machine can revisit timelines it has already created at a later date in the new branch.


... did that make any sense? No, didn't think so.