How Many Characters is Reasonable for a Fighting Game?

gohan2k · Post by **gohan2k** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:03 am

Over the years Dragonball Z fighting games have had various amounts of characters. The range has gone from the Super Butoden series which only had about 10 while Sparking/Tenkaichi which had about 55.

How many characters do you think is reasonable?

Would it be ridiculous to have 100 playable characters (excluding transformations) assuming they each had their own techniques and such ?

And while we're at it what characters that have yet to be seen would you most like to see in a new game?

DB_Fan · Post by **DB_Fan** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:12 am

Yes, excuding Transformations, 100 playable characters would be great.

As for characters I would like to see in a new fighting game, I would like to see Pan, Pikkon, Bebi (in his original forms, not Bebi-Vegeta) and Piccolo Daimao, but would also like some gag characters such as Bulma, Lunch, Oolong, Arale, Kuriza, Z Cat (Neko Majin Z) and Pilaf to play them just for fun. Still it is just a dream, and most people would disagree with the gag characters I mentioned.

gohan2k · Post by **gohan2k** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:40 am

Some dream characters I'd like to see would be Chi Chi, Pan, Yajirobe, Paikuhan/Pikkon (With this Thunder Flash and Hyper Tornado) and Kui. And how about Pilaf, he could have some comedic attacks or General Blue with his paralysis?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:59 am

The problem with more characters is that they'll all start to feel the same after a while. If you've got a hundred characters, you can't possibly have all of them fight distinctly.

Personally, I'd like to have as many characters as possible, even if they fight the same. But then again, I'm not much for fighting games.

Kula · Post by **Kula** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:21 am

Personally i'd like a Budokai game with as many characters as possible, from DB, DBZ, DBGT and the movies.

Characters that haven't appeared, that i'd like to see...

Androids 13, 14 and 15
Super Android 13
Tullece
Garlic Junior
Lord Slug
Sauzer
Bojack's henchmen
Pan
Future Gohan

There must have been 15 characters at most, that weren't included in Budokai 3 so if you're going to have 30 or so characters, why not go the whole hog, and put in the rest?

Leotaku · Post by **Leotaku** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:59 pm

Kula wrote:Personally i'd like a Budokai game with as many characters as possible, from DB, DBZ, DBGT and the movies.

Characters that haven't appeared, that i'd like to see...

...
Pan
...

Well, Pan was in Final Bout on PS1.

Caracal · Post by **Caracal** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:39 pm

In my opinion Sparking probably had the line up I liked the most but it needs a few changes as I feel it's to big. For a start get rid of the Ginyu Force bar Captain Ginyu, Gray Buu, Chaotzu and possibly Zarbon, Dodoria and Kid Gohan. Second they need to get rid of the idea of having transformations/absorptions/modifications as separate characters, returning to in game transformations. Finally they should add in Paikuhan, Uub and one or two of the Shadow Dragons (with the rest removed I don't think it would add to much). That in my opinion would be the best line up. It has most of the characters people want to play as but isn't too big. I agree that having a huge number of playable characters is not a good thing. As we saw in Sparking, to many characters had the same/simular moves and most of the characters played the same.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:00 pm

Sparking...just subtract all of the fucking seperate characters for SSJ, SSJ2, etc.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:05 pm

Chaos Saiyajin wrote: Sparking...just subtract all of the fucking seperate characters for SSJ, SSJ2, etc.

Yeah, I can't believe tey had, like, 6 Gokus but only one form for Bojack.

Casual Matt · Post by **Casual Matt** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:15 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Chaos Saiyajin wrote: Sparking...just subtract all of the fucking seperate characters for SSJ, SSJ2, etc.
Yeah, I can't believe tey had, like, 6 Gokus but only one form for Bojack.

Nuts to the Gokus. Look at how many Vegeta's they had:

Evil Vegeta
Ozaru Vegeta
Vegeta
SSj Vegeta
USSj Vegeta
Majin Vegeta
SSj2 Vegeta
Baby Vegeta

I'm just suprised that Sparking never had Oob, Kaioshin, or Yi Xing Long, since all three of those were in Budokai 3.

The S · Post by **The S** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:37 pm

Cold Daiou! I want to fucking play as Cold Daiou!

Casual Matt · Post by **Casual Matt** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:14 am

The S wrote:Cold Daiou! I want to fucking play as Cold Daiou!

What if you have to fight Trunks?

Seriously, though. If I had to pick a few characters I'd like to see included, I'd say Kibito, Kaioshin, and Paikuhan. It would be cool to see Yi Xing Long again, along with San Xing Long and Si Xing Long.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:19 am

Well, I have all I need in Greatest Hits Budokai 3.

1: Buu Arc Goku
2: 28th Budokai Goku
3: Battle-Damaged Buu Arc Goku
4: Buu Arc Dead Goku
5: Kaioken Buu Arc Goku
6: Kaioken 28th Budokai Goku
7: Kaioken Battle-Damaged Buu Arc Goku
8: Kaioken Buu Arc Dead Goku
9: SSJ Buu Arc Goku
10: SSJ 28th Budokai Goku
11: SSJ Battle-Damaged Buu Arc Goku
12: SSJ Buu Arc Dead Goku
13: SSJ2 Buu Arc Goku
14: SSJ2 28th Budokai Goku
15: SSJ2 Battle-Damaged Buu Arc Goku
16: SSJ2 Buu Arc Dead Goku
17: SSJ3 Buu Arc Goku
18: SSJ3 28th Budokai Goku
19: SSJ3 Battle-Damaged Buu Arc Goku
20: SSJ3 Buu Arc Dead Goku
21: SSJ4 Shadow Dragon Arc Goku
22: SSJ4 Shadow Dragon Arc Dead Goku

23: Piccolo Daimao Arc Original-gi Kid Goku
24: Piccolo Daimao Arc Kid Goku

25: Saiyan Saga Kid Gohan
26: Frieza Saga Saiyan-Armor Gohan
27: Namek Saga Kid Gohan
28: Potential-Unlocked Saiyan Saga Kid Gohan
29: Potential-Unlocked Frieza Saga Saiyan-Armor Gohan
30: Potential-Unlocked Namek Saga Kid Gohan

31: Cell Games Saga Teen Gohan
32: Cell Games Saga Saiyan-Armor Teen Gohan
33: SSJ Cell Games Saga Teen Gohan
34: SSJ Cell Games Saga Saiyan-Armor Teen Gohan
35: SSJ2 Cell Games Saga Teen Gohan
36: SSJ2 Cell Games Saga Saiyan-Armor Teen Gohan

37: Great Saiyaman Saga Gohan
38: Buu Arc Orange-gi Gohan
39: SSJ Great Saiyaman Saga Gohan
40: SSJ Buu Arc Orange-gi Gohan
41: SSJ2 Great Saiyaman Saga Gohan
42: SSJ2 Buu Arc Orange-gi Gohan
43: Elder-Kai-Unlocked Great Saiyaman Saga Gohan
44: Elder-Kai-Unlocked Buu Arc Orange-gi Gohan

45: Great Saiyaman Saga Great Saiyaman
46: World Tournament Saga Great Saiyaman

47: Buu Arc Goten
48: Buu Arc House-Cloths Goten
49: SSJ Buu Arc Goten
50: SSJ Buu Arc House-Cloths Goten

51: Buu Arc Vegeta
52: Android Arc Vegeta
53: Saiyan Saga Evil Vegeta
54: Namek Saga Vegeta
55: SSJ Buu Arc Vegeta
56: SSJ Android Arc Vegeta
57: SSJ Saiyan Saga Evil Vegeta
58: SSJ Namek Saga Vegeta
59: SSJ2 Buu Arc Vegeta
60: SSJ2 Android Arc Vegeta
61: SSJ2 Saiyan Saga Evil Vegeta
62: SSJ2 Namek Saga Vegeta
63: Buu Arc Majin Vegeta
64: Android Arc Majin Vegeta
65: Saiyan Saga Evil Majin Vegeta
66: Namek Saga Majin Vegeta
67: SSJ4 Shadow Dragon Arc Vegeta

68: Buu Arc Super Vegeta
69: SSJ Buu Arc Super Vegeta
70: SSJ2 Buu Arc Super Vegeta
71: SSJ4 Shadow Dragon Arc Super Vegeta
72: Android Arc Super Vegeta
73: SSJ Android Arc Super Vegeta
74: SSJ2 Android Arc Super Vegeta
75: SSJ4 Shadow Dragon Arc Super Vegeta

76: Trunks-Android Saga Future Trunks
77: Cell Games Saga Black-Vest Future Trunks
78: Android Arc Saiyan-Armor Future Trunks
79: SSJ Trunks-Android Saga Future Trunks
80: SSJ Cell Games Saga Black-Vest Future Trunks
81: SSJ Android Arc Saiyan-Armor Future Trunks
82: SSJ2 Trunks-Android Saga Future Trunks
83: SSJ2 Cell Games Saga Black-Vest Future Trunks
84: SSJ2 Android Arc Saiyan-Armor Future Trunks

85: Buu Arc Trunks
86: Great Saiyaman Saga Training-Cloths Trunks
87: SSJ Buu Arc Trunks
88: SSJ Great Saiyaman Saga Training-Cloths Trunks

89: Gotenks
90: SSJ/2 Gotenks
91: SSJ3 Gotenks

92: Vegito
93: SSJ/2 Super Vegito

94: SSJ/2 Movie 12 Gogeta

95: SSJ4 Shadow Dragon Arc Gogeta

96: Android Arc Krillin
97: Buu Arc Krillin
98: Frieza Saga Saiyan-Armor Krillin
99: Potential-Unlocked Android Arc Krillin
100: Potential-Unlocked Buu Arc Krillin
101: Potential-Unlocked Frieza Saga Saiyan-Armor Krillin

102: Android Arc Piccolo
103: Namekian-Essence Piccolo
104: Buu Arc Piccolo
105: Nail-Synced Android Arc Piccolo
106: Nail-Synced Namekian-Essence Piccolo
107: Nail-Synced Buu Arc Piccolo
108: Kami-Fused Android Arc Piccolo
109: Kami-Fused Namekian-Essence Piccolo
110: Kami-Fused Buu Arc Piccolo
111: King Piccolo
112: Nail-Synced King Piccolo
113: Kami-Fused King Piccolo

114: Buu Arc Tien
115: Android Arc Tien

116: Android Arc Yamcha
117: Buu Arc yamcha
118: Saiyan Saga Yamcha

119: Buu Arc Hercule
120: Buu Arc High-Tensioned Hercule

121: World Tournament Saga Videl
122: Great Saiyaman Saga Videl

123: Buu Arc Supreme Kai

124: Buu Arc Kabitoshin

125: 28th Budokai Uub

126: Saiyan Saga Raditz
127: Alternatate-Armor Raditz

128: Saiyan Saga Nappa
129: Alternate-Armor Nappa

130: Ginyu Saga Captain Ginyu
131: Imaginary-Orange-gi Captain Ginyu

132: Namek Saga Recoome
133: Battle-Damaged Namek Saga Recoome

134: Namek Arc Frieza
135: Second-Form Frieza
136: Third-Form Frieza
137: Final-Form Frieza
138: 100% Final-Form Frieza
139: Trunks Saga Mecha Frieza

140: Android #16

141: Android Arc Android #17
142: Kid Buu Saga Android #17

143: Android Saga Android #18
144: Imperfect Cell Saga Android #18
145: Great Saiyaman Saga Android #18

146: Android 20

147: Imperfect Cell
148: #17-Absorbed Cell
149: Perfect-Form Cell
150: Super Perfect-Form Cell

151: Mr. Majin Buu

152: Evil Majin Buu
153: Buu Arc Piccolo-Absorbed Super Majin Buu
154: SSJ3 Gotenks-Absorbed Super Majin Buu
155: Elder-Kai-Unlocked Gohan-Absored Super Majin Buu

156: Pure Majin Buu

157: Dabura
158: Demonic-Willed Dabura

159: Fourth-Form Movie 5 Cooler
1560: Final-Form Movie 5 Cooler
161: Movie 6 Metal Cooler

162: Bardock

163: SSJ Movie 8 Broly
164: Legendary-SSJ Movie 8/10 Broly

165: Omega Shenron

166: Saibaman

167: Cell Jr.

That's not even counting palate swaps. I figure since Budokai Tenkaichi wants to count different saga and suit versions of characters, as well as fusions and upgrade forms. That's just a little-big list I made up, don't take my list seriously, but I suppose in one sense it could be considered official.

Leotaku · Post by **Leotaku** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:13 am

Jebus. Did it take long to type that?

I like that Budokai Tenkaichi included so many characters, including the neglected ones (like Chaozu, the whole Ginyu Force, etc..) and perhaps slightly obscure (like Tao Paipai).

There was really only a few other characters I would've liked to see in it, that would've rounded out the cast.
Paikuhan would've been cool, and it would've been nice to keep Kaioshin and Uub. And since they were including a little more GT in it, I would've liked to see a bit more GT (like Pan and the Dragons), just to complete that side of the game more as well.

But, a huge selection, while it lets you have almost any character someone would've wanted, may not actually be that good, gameplay-wise.

In Suikoden, an RPG series, you can get like 108 or more allies (though not all of them can be used in your party/battle), but I didn't actually find myself using them all. Not even close. It's just too large and daunting, most characters probably won't get used at all.

Even a smaller group in an RPG, like Chrono Cross' 44 usable characters, is pretty big. Again, I didn't actually use that many.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:45 am

If you ask me...We need Pan, Uub, GT Goten, and GT Trunks in a Budokai game...and quickly...

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:13 pm

Leotaku wrote:Jebus. Did it take long to type that?

Geee, ya' think?

Yeah, that took a while to type up. By all accounts, I actually just consider the character roster 44 in Budokai 3. That counts fusions as well. I say 44 (instead of 43) because I count Piccolo Daimao as a separate character, mainly because of the change in his death-move attacks, but also because his body is just plain friggin' huge in comparison with Piccolo's.

ngnikolaos · Post by **ngnikolaos** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:01 pm

I think this topic needs to change it's name to "quality vs quantity" (laughs).

I really think that Sparking's character roster is nearly perfect. It has all major DB manga characters, and some movie / filler / GT characters for flavor. I like having a DBZ action game (other than Legends) which contains the whole Ginew force, all the androids (again MANGA related), and Freeza's thugs.

I'm not a fan of a character roster which only has big names (Hyper Dimension, Super Butoden 3 for instance), I like to see second and even third-rate characters as well.

Which brings us to another problem. The similarity in playing with all these characters. It is sadly evident that when you compare a DBZ fighting roster to a SF2 / MK (DA and Deception) / Guilty Gear roster, you can see the incredible diversity in gameplay.

Take Blanka, play with him for 5-6 matches. Then switch to Zangief. It's like a different experience altogether. Then pick Dahlsim. Same thing.

Take Sol-Badguy in Guilty Gear, do the same, then switch to Maya. Again, completely different style of play. Each character is humongously different than the other, and while there are some cases of mirror-characters (Ryu, Ken and Akuma for instance), most characters are completely different.

Now, pick Goku in Budokai 3. Play with him for 10 matches, then switch to Gohan. Or Piccolo. Or Vegeta. Or anyone else for that matter. Aside from some exceptional characters, all look and are handled in exactly the same way. If you can play Freeza well, then you basically can handle every character in the same way more or less.

But why doesn't that bother many DBZ gamers? Is it because we don't look for quality in DBZ gaming?

No. It's simply because even in the anime, 99% of all fighters never shown an "exceptional" way of fighting, or shown any signs of "uniqueness" where physical style and conditioning is concerned. A DBZ fighter is either worse (in every aspect) than his opponent or not. Aside from the "trademark moves", aka "techniques", there is no difference in each DBZ fighter's style in the anime as well.

So how can a game make 100 unique characters, when even in the anime they are fighting in exactly the same way? A flurry of punches and kicks which lacks any true distinction in style and combat substance, and is more like a translation of the outworldy speed and power these fighters possess?

Even more, concerning the fact that most (certainly all the Z Fighters) characters develop their skills during the show, it would be silly to make a "very slow but very strong Piccolo". When was Piccolo very strong, but also very slow in the show? When was Broly or Freeza? A very strong but very slow DBZ character (a Zangief if you will) is simply non-existent in the show.

However, a neat thing that DBZ games need to translate is "speed - difference". They could make a RPG power-balance style in which it would be more or less similar to Budokai 3, but when a character's Level is upper than his opponent's, that character should mover faster as well, instead of just being stronger. A level 1 Goku for instance would punch in 0.7 seconds, while a level 99 Goku would punch in 0.2 seconds.

In short: a DBZ game that lacks uniqueness in the game style of its fighters is hardly "incomplete". It is just as in the show. So the more fighters the merrier. All we need is a way to translate the "training" the characters undergo. Not simply health bars, and damage, but also SPEED.

NECPS · Post by **NECPS** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:04 pm

I may be stubborn to think this way but.. if they want to recreate the Dragon Ball Z series as a game, they must add every character. I don't even want to count how many is there.

AND it must be a normal fighting game at core.
They could make adventure/rpg for the first series though.

They could say there was not sufficient space on a cd to add all those sprites or all those 3D models, but today this is not a excuse anymore. Another bad excuse is the release date. I don't care if it is today or tomorrow, just ADD EVERYBODY!

No more bonus for JP/EU version!

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:50 pm

Well, I think that 100+ playable characters is downright preposterous. You can't manage that on a single character select screen. >.>;; Not to mention you'd need many months of beta testing just to get the balancing down pat. (No, I don't care that by all means SSJ4 Goku SHOULD whoop Kuririn without breaking into a sweat, in a game every character needs to be equal)

So I'll just side with the camp that says that Sparking gets close, just get rid of multiple forms, use DBZ/Budokai-esque transformations, add some more DB characters, and Aralé, and I'll be very happy. XD

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:07 pm

NECPS wrote:No more bonus for JP/EU version!

Amen! Why the hell should they get everything? Greedy Atari! Making us import shit like that!

Does anyone else wanna see Luffy in a Budokai game?

Well, I think that 100+ playable characters is downright preposterous. You can't manage that on a single character select screen. >.>;; Not to mention you'd need many months of beta testing just to get the balancing down pat. (No, I don't care that by all means SSJ4 Goku SHOULD whoop Kuririn without breaking into a sweat, in a game every character needs to be equal)

Yeah...who the fuck wants to place as The Tenkaichi Budokai announcer anyway? 100+ characters would mean we get only 3 parts in a story mode, and since I like the story mode, that'd be some shit!