Super Saiyan stages

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm

I'm going to argue that Super Saiyan Dai 2 and Dai 3 Dankai are some form of Super Saiyan 2 and 3 based on what people in the manga call all the various forms.

In the Cell sagas Vegeta, Goku and Trunks all reach Super Saiyan Dai 2 Dankai. In the manga it's always referred to as "the level beyond/above SSJ" and "ascended SSJ", and Super Saiyan Dai 3 Dankai was referred to as "another level still" and "a level beyond even that (where 'that' = USSJ)."

Now comes the Buu saga and everybody still refers to SSJ2 as "above/scended/beyond" SSJ. Gohan refers to himself as such when he goes SSJ against Kibito and Vegeta says that Goku has "also attained the level beyond/yadda SSJ."

The only time SSJ2 and 3 are labeled is when Goku explains the differences in stages to Buu, but even then he refers to them synonymously as "the level beyond" and "the level beyond the beyond."

Goku: "Look! Here, I am normal..."

SSJ Goku: "... and here, I'm Super Saiyan!"

SSJ2 Goku: "Next, there is the level beyond that of Super Saiyan... Let's say: Super Saiyan 2..."

"...and finally... here's the level... even beyond that!!"

SSJ3 Goku: "And this, this is Super Saiyan 3!!"

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:29 pm

I argue against this because there are no apparent similarities between the Forms.

Super Saiyan Type 2 increases body mass and generates a sharper aura.

Super Saiyan 2 super-defines the hair, generates an extremely rugged aura, and is covered in lightning.

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Super Saiyan Type 3 increase body mass a lot and generates a wild aura that shoots off in random directions.

Super Saiyan 3 lengthens the hair substantially and generates a semi-defined aura that tends to meld with the air at times, and it covered in tons of lightning.

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If they had a corrospondence, they wouldn't be so different, plus it can be argued that Ssj2 and Ssj3 give much greater powerups.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:37 pm

I like to go with the idea that Super Saiyan grades 2 and 3 (a.k.a. USSJ1/2) are actually failed attempts at reaching SSj2, kind of trying to tap into that power before the body is actually ready for it.

Acheiving "perfect Super Saiyan" is like priming and preparing the body for SSj2, thus the USSJ stages pretty much disappear.

And it seems to me like SSj3 is, while still a seperate stage, kinda like to SSj2 what USSJ1/2 was to SSj1 (A handy but costly boost in power). Does that make sense?

And SSj4 is a completely different path altogether. But let's not even get started on that.

That's my two cents; spend them as you will.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:30 pm

The Wikipedia entry for Super Saiyan has some neat things to think about...

Also, I forgot to mention, USSJ isn't truly a different form of SSJ, technically... It is, instead, the application of Wakugai Henshin to the SSJ1 form. 'Wakugai' means 'To Go Beyond The Limits' and 'Henshin' means, literally, 'To Go From One Form To Another'. One translation of 'Wakugai Henshin' could be 'Beyond Transform'. A Beyond Transform is basically just pushing one's form beyond its ordinary capabilities by using the principle of matter/energy conversion to increase muscle mass by drawing Ki energy into the body and converting it into matter. Master Roshi did this twice in Dragon Ball (once to blow out the flames on a mountain immersed in fire, a second time to 'destroy' the moon). Freeza did it when he fought SSJ Goku (he called it 100% of his full power). Trunks and Goku both did it as Super Saiyajins. Even Perfect Cell did it. Wakugai Henshin can be used by just about anyone. It increases the strength and power of whatever form someone is in at the time, but is more of an 'add-on' than a form in itself. Freeza managed to use a form of Wakugai Henshin in which rather than decreasing his speed significantly, he instead expended great amounts of energy to maintain his dexterity and movement abilities. The problem is that Freeza dragged the fight out too long, and thus ran out of energy. Remember when Goku said, "Your powerlevel is decreasing with every hit. You're not even a challenge anymore."? That's because by that point, Freeza had exhausted his Ki reserves. He could no longer supply the energy needs of his Beyond Transformation. If Freeza had went straight to 100% earlier in the battle, he might have had enough energy left to outlast Goku, or at least put up more of a fight. Trunks, on the other hand, had plenty of energy, but put too much of it into increasing his muscle mass. His powerlevel appeared to skyrocket because the sensing abilities of the Z Senshi are focused on detecting the current amount of energy present in an individual. Trunks was channeling immense amount of Ki into his body, and then storing it, giving the impression of great power, though his fighting capabilities continued to decrease. If Trunks had been closer to Cell's powerlevel to begin with he could have gotten away with a version of USSJ/Wakugai Henshin similar to Freeza's, in which he only bulked up his muscles slightly, but retained most of his agility and speed. He had more than enough Ki in reserve to sustain this form, so he could have chipped away at Cell piece by piece, until he was defeated. Instead, not being as experienced a fighter, he pumped all his energy into his strength, lowering his effectiveness.

Anyway, yeah, technically USSJ is just SSJ1 + Wakugai Henshin, but most fans of the series don't know and/or recognize that fact, so they consider it to be a different form.

Though, I don't know what this "Wakugai Henshin" is. If some one could verify, that'd be swell. It could just be made up (when I first went to the page it said SSj5 was an offical level in the AF series seen only in Japan... sigh).

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:42 pm

Most people here probably know more about DBZ than that Wikipedia, although many articles there are 100% spot on.

But forget that...and SSJ4 too, heh.

But my view on USSJ1/2 are that they are simply failed versions of SSJ2, the proper way to progress a lot further without the loss of speed. I don't really think that any are associated with SSJ3 in any way, basically because that level is far beyond SSJ2 itself, and if I had to say which of the 2 were stronger (USSJ2 Vs SSJ2) then would it not be SSJ2? Even if it is ever so slightly.

But is it safe to say that USSJ2 means you are on the brink of becoming SSJ2?

I think not, I reckon reaching USSJ1, and then 2 involves the same process of powering up, which is why Vegeta and Trunks can do it as well as Goku, but Vegeta still hasn't reached SSJ2 after 7 years, he had to use Babidi's magic. I even think that using the same method used to reach USSJ1/2 makes it possible to go even further, possible USSJ3, which would obviously make the muscles so big there would be not point, it would cause som much body strain they they would possibly explode (kind of like the Kaioken) so they had to figure out the correct way to get stronger without this downside.

Now what I'm saying is if USSJ1/2 were failed versions of SSJ3 too, then the same way you'd ascend to SSJ2 must be the same way SSJ3 is achieved, but even though Vegeta eventually reached SSJ2 he should have been able to reach SSJ3. Gohan too right? But they never did reach this level.

So this means reaching SSJ3 requires a different method, because Vegeta and Gohan now how to reach SSJ2 but not 3.

This is why I think USSJ1/2 are not failed SSJ3's too, since it takes a completely different way of reaching it, not just power or anger, although they are key factors of the transformation, there must be another hidden way to reach SSJ3. Now we never do find out how Goku does this in the otherword, but I'm sure he had to do it alone, since no one in the land of the dead are that knowledged on Saiya-Jin levels, the SSJ was originally a legend anyway.

I always consider SSJ3 as a mysterious form.

How Gotenks reached it I honestly do not know.

Anyway, that is all.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:43 pm

The definition of "henshin" seems about right (though I've always heard it used in the context of "transformation"), but I'm not familiar with "Wakugai" in any form.

Anyway, what he says is pretty much true. I'm just arguing that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are the same since everybody keeps refering to them in the same fashion in the manga.

ItsAllGood · Post by **ItsAllGood** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:37 pm

"I even think that using the same method used to reach USSJ1/2 makes it possible to go even further, possible USSJ3, which would obviously make the muscles so big there would not be a point, it would cause so much body strain they they would possibly explode (kind of like the Kaioken) so they had to figure out the correct way to get stronger without this downside - Bejiita"

*Cue Brolli - He figured it out

*

My Thoughts on the matter,

SSJ 1 and 2 are forms that rely on the body's natural ability, I.E Strength , Speed and Chi. USSJ levels are just the re-distribution of Chi around the body to serve or to increase a particular in response to a need. SSJ3 is more of a technique than a level. Indeed, we are never told how exactly Goku ascended into SSJ3, and we seem to just take it as he trained until he reached this level. I will return to this point shortly.

Take Trunks for example. As Wikipedia has suggested, Trunks pumped all of his Chi into creating a larger body mass so he can punch harder, What he failed to realise was that he could have supplemented his existing strength with Chi, very similar to Goku's Kaio-ken. USSJ is only SSJ supplemented by Chi to increase Strength/Physical Mass.

I believe Cell made a point of explaining this to Trunks as well. Therefore, If Trunks had used Chi to increase strength instead of mass, Trunks would have appeared normal in terms of body proportion, but, due to the Chi he could have supplemented for the lack of strength, he could have probably matched Cell.

I tend to believe that SSJ and SSJ2 are technically the limits of the body as an even distribution. Chi is distributed evenly to all areas needed in these forms (I'll group them into Strength, Chi and Speed for argument's sake)

Now lets look at SSJ3. Goku's body appears to be normally proportioned, yet his Speed, Chi and Strength have all been massively upgraded. He can punch harder , move quicker and is generally much more powerful than any previous level.

Haven't you ever wondered why he is able to do this, but with no apparent changes to his body, aside from eyebrows and hair? You would think someone of that power and strength would make Brolli's Body look like nothing. The answer is Chi. He has manipulated his Chi to supplement the areas needed. We have already seen this with Kaioken - A slight change in physical structure, but a massive change in fighting powers. This is his technique, as he is overiding his body's statistic distribution , and boosting stats where he needs them.

Just as Trunks supplemented Chi into body MASS, thinking in the physical sense, Goku uses his enormous Chi reserves as leverage for his strength. This explains why there was very little difference in terms of muscle mass. This could also explain why he couldn't maintain SSJ3 for very long, as he was drawing on his Chi to supplement almost all areas in order to stay ahead. Whilst having enormous Chi resevres, this simply wasn't enough.

The best example I could possible give would be Chibi Buu. Small Guy/ Massive Power. Why? He used his Chi to increase his statistics without showing any apparent outer changes.

My 0.02c worth!

t-bone135 · Post by **t-bone135** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:10 pm

Well, I personally agree mostly with the Wiki article. It made some good points, most of them I agree with.

But my point of view is that, when you have enough power to which you don't have to force it to ascend, that is when you can reach SSj 2. Look at how easily Gohan reached this level. He had enough power inside of him that it easily pushed him over the level of SSj, to which the body react's accordingly. Now compare that to how long it took Trunks to reach his level. He didn't have nearly the same potential as Gohan did, so he was forcing that change to happen. It was unnatural, so it didn't work properly. Which brings me to another point I'd like to make; I think that the only real transformation is SSj, and all others are just ascended versions of that, in which the body is forced to react differently each time to adapt to these new levels of power. This is why all of the forms take on radical changes in the basic appearence like longer hair, electricity, an aura that is literally a sphere, (SSj 3,) etc.

So, essentially, when Goku reached SSj FP, he was actually putting himself in prime position to achieve assention. When Vegeta trained during the seven years while Goku was gone, he grew powerful enough to where he no longer had to force himself to ascend, it could just happen because it honestly could.

We now have 12 cents.

EDIT: I forgot something. SSj 3, in my opinion has somthing to do with the mind as well as power. Did you ever notice how much Goku had to focus to stay in SSj 3? Well, I don't know if that is actually the case, but let's think about this for a second. He's genterating enough power to destroy planets without even trying, so I've always felt that it takes an extreme level of focus and inner monitering to control it so it doesn't kill you. Every time Goku fell out of SSj 3, it was because he was tense, tired, anxious, etc. and he lost his focus. The body aborts it to stop itself from blowing up, it's that powerful. Focus on ones self is always something Vegeta couldn't ever achieve. He was always driven by Goku; that was his motivation. So he didn't have the capacity to calm down and become one with himself enough. I kind of believe that is why he couldn't/didn't reach SSj 3. His heart wasn't in it enough for himself, he just did it because he wanted to be better then Goku. Goku would care if someone was stronger then he was, but he wouldn't let it bug him like it would Vegeta. He would focus more on surpassing his limits rather then just being stronger then someone.

EDIT 2: As above with focus, think about how much focus it takes to perform the fusion dance. This is partly why Gotenks can reach SSj 3, not only from the significant power increase, but the level of focus achieved from performing the dance properly gave them the tools the needed to ascend to the third level. Gohan on the other hand, stopped training, but it's appearent that he still had enough latent reserves that if he had worked on his focus he probably could have easily achieved this.

This ends my constant editing. If I missed anything this time, it's missed for good.

ItsAllGood · Post by **ItsAllGood** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:16 am

"Every time Goku fell out of SSj 3, it was because he was tense, tired, anxious, etc. and he lost his focus. The body aborts it to stop itself from blowing up, it's that powerful. - t-bone135"

Hmm...I do agree that he dropped out of SSJ3 because of the above mentioned reasons, but i dont think that if he had stopped his focus, that the body would have blown up. Goku himself mentions that he has to "calm down" and "let go" during the fight with Chibi Buu.

The constant internal monitoring of his Chi reserves would have been all over the place if he hadn't had a great deal of focus to keep them in check and flowing to where he needed it. Hence, he needed to "Calm down"and "let go" in order to keep a lid on it, otherwise the close watch would be disrupted and he would drop out of SSJ3.

This wasn't so much of a problem with earlier levels, as SSJ1 and 2 were in response to anger, and would distribute power in a simple fashion , i.e - equal amounts to strength, speed and chi, but as you move towards SSJ3, amounts become more finitely distributed, and if you cant keep focus, it would simply not work. Doubtless that with more training, it would be easier to maintain this control, but in this case we know he had only used SSJ3 a few times before fighting Buu.

I believe that SSJ3 is so complex to maintain in terms of Chi within one's body, that without the proper inner focus, you simply couldn't maintain it as a fighting form, or as a form in general. This could also explain why Vegeta couldn't , and probably would never, ascend, as t-bone135 has suggested, his motivation was Goku, and not to better oneself.

One more thing. Did anyone else notice Goku became more sinister and methodical whilst in SSJ3?

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:43 pm

One more thing. Did anyone else notice Goku became more sinister and methodical whilst in SSJ3?

Not really...I mean, the Anime had him pitch Boo into a crowded city so I guess that would be correct, but in the Manga he just threw him into water. He was really, really intense and focused, but he really wasn't that different. No more "sinister" than he was when he first became a Super Saiyan.

t-bone135 · Post by **t-bone135** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:14 pm

ItsAllGood wrote:"Every time Goku fell out of SSj 3, it was because he was tense, tired, anxious, etc. and he lost his focus. The body aborts it to stop itself from blowing up, it's that powerful. - t-bone135"

Hmm...I do agree that he dropped out of SSJ3 because of the above mentioned reasons, but i dont think that if he had stopped his focus, that the body would have blown up.

Well, he could blow up using the Kaio-Ken, and SSj 3 is a lot more powerful then it. If he loses his focus during the transformation, what's to say that all that power that he needed to keep in check wouldn't try to burst out all at once?

ItsAllGood wrote:Goku himself mentions that he has to "calm down" and "let go" during the fight with Chibi Buu.

The constant internal monitoring of his Chi reserves would have been all over the place if he hadn't had a great deal of focus to keep them in check and flowing to where he needed it. Hence, he needed to "Calm down"and "let go" in order to keep a lid on it, otherwise the close watch would be disrupted and he would drop out of SSJ3.

This wasn't so much of a problem with earlier levels, as SSJ1 and 2 were in response to anger, and would distribute power in a simple fashion , i.e - equal amounts to strength, speed and chi, but as you move towards SSJ3, amounts become more finitely distributed, and if you cant keep focus, it would simply not work. Doubtless that with more training, it would be easier to maintain this control, but in this case we know he had only used SSJ3 a few times before fighting Buu.

I would like to add something to this. Goku seemed really scared, (for lack of better term,) of having to use SSj 3 at all. I think this could support my theory of potential death from it, but loosely. Anyway, I sight that he didn't try and use it against Vegeta, and he hesitated quite a bit while using it against Mr. Buu. My theory is that he discovered the form, but that it was like getting a new power tool. He has an idea of how to use it, but now he has to get experience. I would hate to see what kind of damage occured in other world from the first time he tried it, as implied by what he said to Mr. Buu, "I haven't had much practice with this one." But he could have easily discovered any harmful back lashes from using such power, and it could have frightened him. Further, one way I interperete that line mentioned above, (calming down, letting go,) is that he was syching himself up knowing that it was all on the line. "Calm down," meaning don't let yourself get worked up, and, "Let go," meaning to realize it's all on the line, and that he can't hold back. He's got to use the card he's scared off. Realize I don't mean scared as in Gohan scared, but scared as in not 100% confident.

I hope that made some sense.

ItsAllGood wrote:I believe that SSJ3 is so complex to maintain in terms of Chi within one's body, that without the proper inner focus, you simply couldn't maintain it as a fighting form, or as a form in general. This could also explain why Vegeta couldn't , and probably would never, ascend, as t-bone135 has suggested, his motivation was Goku, and not to better oneself.

Thanks for the support here.