If you've already seen "Rebirth of Fusion" . . .

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:36 pm

It seems stupid to ask with the release just weeks away, but what the hell.

Today's DBZ Episode: No More SSJ2 Controversy!! Li'l Lemmy's Violent, Ultra-Savage Beating For Having Mentioned It

I know that Goku resorts to Super Saiyan 3 at some point during movie 12, but I've also heard that he fights as a SSJ2 before that. Since it can be quite tricky sometimes to make the visual distinction between SSJ and SSJ2 (and since both Goku and Gotenks have been known to jump directly to the third level without "climbing the ladder," so to speak), it leads me to wonder . . . does SSJ2 Goku make an actual appearance, or is it really just his SSJ form and all this SSJ2 talk is just people making their best guesses? ("Look, it's SSJ2 Gogeta!")

Unlike his SSJ and SSJ3 counterparts, SSJ2 Goku feels like a fairly "rare" form to be seen in animation, so it really interests me.

Hmm. Come to think of it, is there any real indication that Vegeta fights as a SSJ2 in the movie as well? (As if we can ever really tell by looking at his hair.)

(No one gathered the Dragonballs to bring Li'l Lemmy back to life, and they all lived happily ever after.)

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:42 pm

Man, I really hate to use this as the standard but usually the distinguishing feature is that blue electricity that's part of the aura for an SSJ2. So yeah, since that was what Vegeta's aura was like after he was possessed by Babidi, I think it's safe to say that he was fighting as an SSJ2. And yes, Gokuh does appear as an SSJ2 during his fight with Vegeta and his demonstration for Buu.

DBZ MAN · Post by **DBZ MAN** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:17 pm

I strongly believe that he was Super Saiyan 2, if not the electricty, just look at the hair.

The 2nd one is taken from the 'Fusion Reborn' movie itself.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:24 pm

I am of the school-of-thought that it's simply a well-animated SSJ1. I tend to go with the "Goku in SSJ2 is way too rare" idea, myself.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:43 pm

DBZ MAN wrote:I strongly believe that he was Super Saiyan 2, if not the electricty, just look at the hair.

The 2nd one is taken from the 'Fusion Reborn' movie itself.

That second one's definatley SSJ2, no doubt about it. I sorta feel sorry for SSJ2...It's the most overlooked form of all.

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:00 pm

I agree with you in theory, Chaos; that image damn sure looks like SSJ2, at least when you compare it to the footage of SSJ2 Goku fighting Majin Vegeta . . . though I suppose that just the one screenshot isn't enough where I can decide that he's actually fighting in SSJ2 mode. I think I need to see Goku in motion.

Sigh. It looks as though I won't really be able to guess for myself until I pick up the DVD, dammit . . . but the input was nice. Thanks!

VegettoEX wrote:I am of the school-of-thought that it's simply a well-animated SSJ1. I tend to go with the "Goku in SSJ2 is way too rare" idea, myself.

Huh . . . so I'm not the only one who thinks so. Kudos to me for not being crazy.

(Still looking forward to hearing that "Gogeta spin" music, EX!)

Cyberman · Post by **Cyberman** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:48 pm

My 2 cents are that in SSJ2 mode for Goku, some more of his hair "bangs" go up. There are about 2 or 3 in SSJ2 mode I've noticed.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:20 am

You can never really tell for sure with the Anime, unless you have some Manga to referrence. It's just one of those things that the Manga did way better (making the 2 forms distinguishable), but in all fairness, the key trait to Ssj2 in the Manga would of been fricken harder than a rock to Animate.

It's been a long time since the one time I saw the movie, but the screenshot looks Ssj2, though it may very well not be.

Nekoni · Post by **Nekoni** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:42 pm

Yup, that's SSJ2 Goku.

You can't tell with Vegeta. Infact, you can barely tell if he went SSJ2 in the later Buu saga, letalone the auraless Movie 12 XD

Goku didn't fight in SSJ2. He went SSJ2- apears he was aiming directly for SSJ3, because Janemba shot ki blasts at him (and ended up blowing himself up, haha) and Goku dodged them and went immediately into SSJ3. *shrug*

Once you see where those ki blasts are coming -from-, you may understand why Goku's pulling such an odd face. Infact, I advise taking a mirror to watch movie 12, becase you'll likely end up doing a Goku impression. And they said stuff like that only happened in Austen Powers!

As for SSJ2 in the babidi fight- definately both Goku and Vegeta are in SSJ2. Perhaps a more interesting question to ask, is, if that is the -first time- Vegeta achieves such a level... however this is not really the thread for it.

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:29 am

VegettoEX wrote:I am of the school-of-thought that it's simply a well-animated SSJ1.

Agreed (also mentioned in an episode of the podcast, where Meri refers to the artists who did the well-animated episodes as the A-team). And just to add more of VegettoEX's technicalities into this conversation, go here and find the SSJ2 section.

Nekoni · Post by **Nekoni** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:00 pm

This isn't making sense.

I'm thinking this is SSJ2. I mean, the physical form -is that of SSJ2-. And auras are just temporary.

Just like in SSJ, and even SSJ3, quite frequently the auras were not drawn. Would we say an auraless SSJ3 Goku must have been SSJ1, because he had no aura? It isn't logical *shakes head* -every- form has been drawn with aura- and gradually without. If the form has no aura then we, well, just -can't- judge it by aura.

If you're confused as to what I'm refering to, just go watch some DragonballZ while keeping in mind whether their auras are there or not. Undoubtably you'll notice, 'Hey!? They stopped drawing the auras!'

I double and triple checked the scene. Goku's hair is two bangs- and I can very honestly tell you that's SSJ2 hair because -it really annoys me trying to draw it right-.

He didn't display a solid aura. As he transformed into that form, he showed a gold flash. (a lot of good THAT does us, hah) and in the next shot he was dropping his aura. (so a few tendrils of gold) really, I'd say that lasted about... 0.2 seconds, tops!

SylentEcho · Post by **SylentEcho** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:06 pm

come on guys, this happens after the Majin sagas so Gokuu obviously wont be stupid enough to still fight in his SSJ form.....but I feel TOEI is too lazy to draw the electricity sparks......

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:13 pm

SylentEcho wrote:come on guys, this happens after the Majin sagas so Gokuu obviously wont be stupid enough to still fight in his SSJ form.....but I feel TOEI is too lazy to draw the electricity sparks......

You've already been warned in your introduction thread. Posts like this will not be tolerated. This is your second formal warning.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:31 pm

I can't find the thread, but there was a long discussion about whether or not Vegetto was SSj or SSj2. Bejita, who is a freakin' expert in this stuff, explained that SSj and SSj2 auras are very different in the manga. And from that we can tell who was which level as long as the instance in question is canon. Now since the anime does auras differently from the manga we lose that ability to distinguish levels that way.

Also in the manga, SSj2 and SSj3 have electricity around them at all times. But again, in the anime, this is not carried over. We see electricity around SSj2 and SSj3 sometimes, but not all the time. And I believe we've seen a SSj1 with electricity as well. So, this is a good indicator, but nothing that will prove it one way or the other.

Also, some point to the 'definition' of the Saiyan's hair as an indicator. But it seems that as the series progresses the hair is just done differently, and all SSj levels have very 'defined' hair.

The only visible characteristic I've ever seen (outside of Gohan's initial transfomation) to distinguish the two levels is in Goku. His Hair as SSj2 has only three 'bangs' visibly separated, while his SSj1 form has more packed togther.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:42 am

desirecampbell wrote:The only visible characteristic I've ever seen (outside of Gohan's initial transfomation) to distinguish the two levels is in Goku. His Hair as SSj2 has only three 'bangs' visibly separated, while his SSj1 form has more packed togther.

SSJ2 Goku has a shitty hairline, end of story. You can see it in your image and this one here...

It's just a straight line right across the top of the forehead, with giant chunks of hair coming out of it. It looks like a painted on wig or something.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:06 am

Maybe he's balding?

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:21 pm

SylentEcho wrote:come on guys, this happens after the Majin sagas so Gokuu obviously wont be stupid enough to still fight in his SSJ form.....but I feel TOEI is too lazy to draw the electricity sparks......

Well, if you're saying that Goku should have powered to his maximum to fight Janemba, then why didn't he power up straight to SSJ3 in the first place?

I'm guessing that he powered up to SSJ(1) initially, just to see if it was necessary to power all the way up to SSJ3. So, it's possible that he could havewent to SSJ2 some time in between when he first transforms and finally reaches SSJ3, which brings up another question: Is it necessary to go through each SSJ stage in order? What I mean is to reach SSJ3 (for example) would one have to go through SSJ and SSJ2 first? I know that Goku's done so during his fight with Super Buu, but some would say that it "doesn't count" since that fight wasn't in the manga

.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:55 pm

DaemonCorps wrote:Is it necessary to go through each SSJ stage in order? What I mean is to reach SSJ3 (for example) would one have to go through SSJ and SSJ2 first?

No, Goku has gone gone right to ssj3 from ssj1 before his last fight with Buu(in the manga, in the anime he was already ssj2), he also went straight from normal form to ssj3(that was HERE, against Gotenks Buu). Either he can go ssj/2 so fast you can't see it, or he can go straight to ssj3.

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:44 pm

Metrite wrote:
DaemonCorps wrote:Is it necessary to go through each SSJ stage in order? What I mean is to reach SSJ3 (for example) would one have to go through SSJ and SSJ2 first?
No, Goku has gone gone right to ssj3 from ssj1 before his last fight with Buu(in the manga, in the anime he was already ssj2), he also went straight from normal form to ssj3(that was HERE, against Gotenks Buu). Either he can go ssj/2 so fast you can't see it, or he can go straight to ssj3.

Yeah, that's what I said before, but I wasn't sure if people would actually side with me on it

.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:35 am

After analyzing the said picture from Movie 12, as well as using super-slow motion to get another look at him in another part, I've pretty much made up my mind that he was very much at Super Saiyan Level 2.

It's the hair. It is simply too erect to be an Ssj1, especially for the level of Animation used in that movie. The team definately made the difference as much as possible without resorting to aura usage (which would have been a better choice, but whatever...)

Guess that's all I got to say about that.

Kanzenshuu

If you've already seen "Rebirth of Fusion" . . .

If you've already seen "Rebirth of Fusion" . . .

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