Vegito vs. Gogeta - A controversial debate

[t0ffe3m4n]

Hey guys, I was wondering what your takes are on this particular matter. On another message board I regular, there has been an ongoing Vegito vs. Gogeta debate in the Battledome section. As of this evening, there have been 300 replies and Vegito is leading the poll by just 4 votes:

http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=95023

For a while I've been arguing on the side of Gogeta, since the Super Saiyan 4 version we saw in GT is allowed, meaning that the Goku and Vegeta of Z who make up Vegito would practically be pitted with their Super Saiyan 4 counterparts from GT. I personally believe that Vegito would be handily 'outmuscled' by Gogeta in practically every aspect, but it seems many people think overwise.. though I don't quite understand why.

What does everyone else think?

[Snail]

If a matchup like this were to ever occur, it is pretty safe to say that Vegito would definitely win against Gogeta (excluding GT status). This is obvious because Gogeta's form has a time limit, while Vegito is a permanently fused version of Goku and Vegeta.

If there were to be a matchup between SSJ 4 Gogeta and Vegito, it's still hard to say. SSJ 4 Gogeta might get a little too cocky and instead of winning the match, he'd take his time thrashing Vegito around. Vegito's saiyan instincts might kick in some time during the battle and transform into SSJ 3, maybe further if certain conditions needed were applied. If Gogeta ssj4 was fighting very, very seriously, then my bet is that Gogeta would wipe out Vegito pretty quick.

Either way it's hard to say, but I'd like Vegito to win because I like the character just a tad bit better than Gogeta. =P

[VegettoEX]

I don't see a "Who would win?" discussion going anywhere at all, unless someone can contribute something new and meaningful to it. I'll let it stay open for a little bit, but if it turns into nonsense, I'll just go ahead and close it.

[t0ffe3m4n]

If a matchup like this were to ever occur, it is pretty safe to say that Vegito would definitely win against Gogeta (excluding GT status). This is obvious because Gogeta's form has a time limit, while Vegito is a permanently fused version of Goku and Vegeta.

The rules of this particular battle state that there is no time limit on Gogeta's fusion (look at the first post of the thread). It's basically a deathmatch.

[desirecampbell]

Ugh, I don't see this going anywhere.

Why would Gogeta be stronger than Vegetto? When Gogeta is formed Goku and Vegeta have to be at the same power level - meaning one of them would have to surpress their strength. The potara fusion, on the other hand, would not require this. Thus, Vegetto has to be stronger than Gogeta.

But then again - it doesn't matter

[Tsukento]

The very fact that Vegetto can beat the living crap out of Majin Boo after being turned into a piece of candy says something.

[t0ffe3m4n]

When Gogeta is formed Goku and Vegeta have to be at the same power level - meaning one of them would have to surpress their strength. The potara fusion, on the other hand, would not require this.

... and?

The fact that both Goku and Vegeta were already Super Saiyan 4 when they fused doesn't count for anything?

Strange logic you've used there..

[desirecampbell]

... and?

The fact that both Goku and Vegeta were already Super Saiyan 4 when they fused doesn't count for anything?

Strange logic you've used there..

If these two characters were to fight, in any capastiy, you have to first decide what timeframe they are from within the series.

As we only see Gogeta after Vegetto. Goku and Vegeta were stronger when Gogeta was formed than they were previously when they formed Vegetto. Thus, taking Vegetto out of his timeframe, and implanting him into a later timeframe, would be unfair. Gogeta would obviously be stronger - be cause Goku and Vegeta are stronger. The success in battle would then stem from each 'set' of Goku and Vegea - not the fusions themselves.



For this debate to mean anything, you would have to assume that there are two 'sets' of Goku and Vegeta. Two Gokus of equal strength, and two Vegetas of equal strength. only then would a 'Gogeta vs. Vegetto' strength debate matter. Otherwise it's just as valid as an argument of 'Cell Games Gohan vs. Saiyan Saga Gohan'.


Now, with that in mind, re-read my last post:

When Gogeta is formed Goku and Vegeta have to be at the same power level - meaning one of them would have to surpress their strength. The potara fusion, on the other hand, would not require this.

You should be able to figure out that because one of them don't have to surpress their power, Vegetto has to be stronger.

[Rocketman]

Base Vegetto could whip the fur off SSJ4 "Gogeta".

Evidence:

Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta cannot blow up the Earth with multiple hits from a 'Super' Galic Gun. This makes him weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who could destroy Earth in one shot of a regular Galic Gun.

GOBV beat the snot out of SSj4 Goku, to the point where the latter had to borrow energy from the others to keep fighting.

Goku does no training, so he can be assumed to be the same strength when fusing that he was when fighting Baby. Vegeta is the same strength, since they can fuse.

However, this means both are weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, making their fusion, at best, Android Saga level. Vegetto in any form is obviously far stronger.

Fuzz-butt loses horribly.

[Steven Perry]

Okay, let's make it go somewhere...

Did Vegito have the ability to ascend regular Super- Saiyan when fighting against Buu? I remember Old Kai saying something like, "If you fuse as Super- Saiyans, your life span will decrease". This gives me the impression that his power would be so immense, he could even surpass Super- Saiyan 4. We can't tell what form would actually decrease health, because Super- Saiyan 4 Gogeta isn't fused long enough to show the effects, and Vegito's fusion stops. If Gogeta's fusion lasted longer, we'd be able to judge the amount of power Vegito would have from there.

For example, if Gogeta stayed fused for 20 years and he lived fine, what would that say about the power Vegito would have? Probably Super- Saiyan 5! Remember, Goku could already turn into Super- Saiyan 3. So, Vegeta's Super- Saiyan 2+ Goku's Super- Saiyan 3= 5! I am so good at maths.


Vegito was messin' with Buu (there's a bit of Vegeta in there, y'know!), at a form that looked like regular Super- Saiyan. What would be his power if he increased it? It seems obvious that he'd be able to.


Anybody understand? No? Oh well... I'll delete it if it doesn't make sense.

[t0ffe3m4n]

If these two characters were to fight, in any capastiy, you have to first decide what timeframe they are from within the series.

As we only see Gogeta after Vegetto. Goku and Vegeta were stronger when Gogeta was formed than they were previously when they formed Vegetto. Thus, taking Vegetto out of his timeframe, and implanting him into a later timeframe, would be unfair. Gogeta would obviously be stronger - be cause Goku and Vegeta are stronger. The success in battle would then stem from each 'set' of Goku and Vegea - not the fusions themselves.

Exactly... yet there are still people who believe that the original Vegito would defeat Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. Thats the argument. (just read through some of that thread to see)

Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta cannot blow up the Earth with multiple hits from a 'Super' Galic Gun. This makes him weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who could destroy Earth in one shot of a regular Galic Gun.

Huh? He didn't actually hit the Earth either time. Besides, the point that you've just made there would be utterly ridiculous in any context..

@ Steven Perry: Most of your post could also apply to Gogeta as well however..

[desirecampbell]

Exactly... yet there are still people who believe that the original Vegito would defeat Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. Thats the argument. (just read through some of that thread to see)

Really? That's retarded.

Firstly, let's dispell the idea that a potara fusion is signifigantly more powerful than a 'dance' fusion. Once Vegeta destroyed the earrings, Goku wanted to do the dance - if the dance fusion was any weaker than the potara fusion he wouldn't have even suggested it. Plus, there's no reason to think that either would be more powerful - they're both "fusion".

So, now this just becomes an arument of "who is stronger Goku/Vegeta circa Buu Saga or Goku/Vegeta circa GT Dragon Saga"?

Then think that Vegetto could possible, maybe, reach the level of SSj3 - while Gogeta reaches SSj4.

There's no way anyone could argue that Vegetto, circa Buu Saga, is stronger than Gogeta, circa GT.

[Steven Perry]

I totally agree with Desirecampbell. Depending on the fusion style used (Potara or the dance), Vegito would kick Gogeta all the way to Timbuktu (no suppression needed). Of course, you have to assume Goku and Vegeta use the earrings at Super- Saiyan 4.

You can't have a fair fight, because Vegeta and Goku during the last GT saga are stronger. Obviously, Gogeta would win. So, screw my last post (it depends on their strength at the time of fusion).

But, one thing has bothered me: both Goku and Vegeta were Super- Saiyan 4 when they fused, so imagine the power. Why didn't they turn into something greater than Super- Saiyan 4? Have they reached a peak or something?

[desirecampbell]

But, one thing has bothered me: both Goku and Vegeta were Super- Saiyan 4 when they fused, so imagine the power. Why didn't they turn into something greater than Super- Saiyan 4? Have they reached a peak or something?

Huh? Why would it matter what form they were in? Durring the Buu saga we were told that starting off the fusion at a certain SSj level would mean the fusion'd warrior would start off at that level too. Trunks and Goten fused several times while being SSj, we don't expect Gotenks to be "SSj-OMFGxorz".

[Mike]

Base Vegetto could whip the fur off SSJ4 "Gogeta".

Evidence:

Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta cannot blow up the Earth with multiple hits from a 'Super' Galic Gun. This makes him weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who could destroy Earth in one shot of a regular Galic Gun.

GOBV beat the snot out of SSj4 Goku, to the point where the latter had to borrow energy from the others to keep fighting.

Goku does no training, so he can be assumed to be the same strength when fusing that he was when fighting Baby. Vegeta is the same strength, since they can fuse.

However, this means both are weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, making their fusion, at best, Android Saga level. Vegetto in any form is obviously far stronger.

Fuzz-butt loses horribly.

I agree with you completely. Besides we all know Pilaf can beat the both of 'em anyway. *runs*

[Rocketman]

Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta cannot blow up the Earth with multiple hits from a 'Super' Galic Gun. This makes him weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who could destroy Earth in one shot of a regular Galic Gun.

Huh? He didn't actually hit the Earth either time. Besides, the point that you've just made there would be utterly ridiculous in any context..

Except the context of GT, where SSJ Goku is both weaker than Uub and stronger than him, or where Base Goku can take hits that knocked SSj4 Goku around, or where characters forget how to fly, or get beat up faster in Super Saiyan mode than in base, or they can get killed from a spinning fan blade desite being able to withstand nuclear-level blasts...

And are you sure he didn't hit Earth? I seem to recall the blast very clearly striking Earth and leveling a city.

[ItsAllGood]

My take on this issue,

I seem to remember quite clearly that the creation of Vegetto was due to the Potara Earings. Elder Kai clearly stated that this sort of fusion is much more "complete" and more powerful than the Metamorese fusion (Fusion Dance) This one fact should be something to keep in mind.

Working from this one point, you would assume that if Vegetto at a base level would instantly be much more powerful than Gogeta at a base level.
I remember someone pointing to evidence in the Daizenshuu that Vegetto at his base was already as strong as a SSJ3.

Whether Vegetto would have been able to push himself up to SSJ4 would be, in my opinion, rather easy. After all, if we take the above as being true, than transforming through SSJ2 , 3 and finally 4 should be well within his limits.

Whether he would need to has never been proven. Perhaps if the Potara earings were avaliable during the GT series, this could have shed some light on the subject. But then again, so could have the fusion of Trunks and Goten during GT too.

Now consider Gogeta. Aside from what we have seen of his fighting capacity and power he still is, essentially, a flawed character due to the first point - the Metamorese fusion is weaker than the Potara fusion.

Regardless if the characters had not fused as SSJ4, the resulting character still has the potential to transform, as we have seen with Trunks and Goten. Both were not strong enough to transform into higher than SSJ forms whilst seperated, but combine them and SSJ3 is possible. And that was with the weaker (Metamorese) of the two fusions!

Indeed Gotenks showed an amazed Piccolo that a fused character can indeed transform into higher-than-base levels, which debunked Picolo's theory of transforming before attempting fusion. This should bolster support that Vegetto is able to transform into a higher level even after the two occupants have fused at their base level.

In any case, this is all speculation. Let the flaming begin!

[Steven Perry]

My take on this issue, I seem to remember quite clearly that the creation of Vegetto was due to the Potara Earrings. Elder Kai clearly stated that this sort of fusion is much more "complete" and more powerful than the Metamorese fusion (Fusion Dance). This one fact should be something to keep in mind.

Uh- oh... That messes up Desire's theory:

Firstly, let's dispel the idea that a potara fusion is significantly more powerful than a 'dance' fusion. There's no reason to think that either would be more powerful - they're both "fusion".

You've got the evidence ItsAllGood, so I'm gonna have to go with you now.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The success in battle would then stem from each 'set' of Goku and Vegeta - not the fusions themselves. Goku and Vegeta were stronger when Gogeta was formed than they were previously when they formed Vegetto. So, now this just becomes an argument of "who is stronger Goku/Vegeta during Buu Saga or Goku/Vegeta during GT Dragon Saga"?

I remember someone pointing to evidence in the Daizenshuu that Vegetto at his base was already as strong as a SSJ3. Working from this one point, you would assume that if Vegetto at a base level would instantly be much more powerful than Gogeta at a base level.

Well, if the Daizenshuu says so... The power of Vegito would be influenced by the type of fusion, and the fact that Vegeta and Goku do not need to suppress their energy. The type of fusion does make a significant difference! So, it is possible for Vegito to easily surpass SS4! Yay!

It would be really good if you could find this information, ItsAllGood. Like a scan, or something.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regardless if the characters had not fused as SSJ4, the resulting character still has the potential to transform, as we have seen with Trunks and Goten. Both were not strong enough to transform into higher than SSJ forms whilst separated, but combine them and SSJ3 is possible. And that was with the weaker (Metamorese) of the two fusions!

If two little kids could do that (with their individual maximum power ONLY SS1)... Imagine Vegito! Man, Vegito would kill Gogeta! I've changed my opinion (that's if the Daizenshuu says Vegito's base form is as strong as SS3).

For this debate to mean anything, you would have to assume that there are two 'sets' of Goku and Vegeta. Two Gokus of equal strength, and two Vegetas of equal strength. only then would a 'Gogeta vs. Vegetto' strength debate matter. Otherwise it's just as valid as an argument of 'Cell Games Gohan vs. Saiyan Saga Gohan'.

Not any more! Potara is the "complete" fusion ('cause Elder Kai says so).

ItsAllGood, you're good. Too good.

[t0ffe3m4n]

Vegito's base form isn't as strong as a SSJ3... his Super form is.

Also, whats to say that Gogeta's Super Saiyan 4 form isn't as strong as, say, a Super Saiyan 6, or 7?

Assumptions can be made, sure, but then that would mean the battle could go either way. I've just stuck with what we know, and what we know is that Super Saiyan 4 >>> any other Saiyan form, so therefore two fused Super Saiyan 4's >>> any other fusion at a lesser form, regardless of method.

Surely this is common sense?

[Rocketman]

Vegito's base form isn't as strong as a SSJ3... his Super form is.

Wha? No, his Super form is stronger than a fusion of Super Buu and Mystic Gohan. His base form is well beyond SSj3.