Dragon Ball as a series of fantasy novels?

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Dragon Ball as a series of fantasy novels?

Post by Dragon Ball Daisuki » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:24 pm

Originally mutated from the discussion here: http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.php?t=6281

I really intended to get this up over the weekend, but we weekend warriors live by our own timetable, I suppose. No use crying over spilled milk. Let's just discuss Book One for now. We can get to my full vision later.

BOOK ONE

As Mike once said, Dragon Ball is all about wacky comedy, friendship, and overcoming impossible obstacles. (This should remain at the core of the stories) Its narrative is highlighted by themes of redemption, self-improvement, and virtue. These themes come alive in three main story arcs: The PILAF story arc, the RED RIBBON ARMY story arc, and the PICCOLO DAIMAOU story arc.

However, in the novelization of Dragon Ball, it would be best to limit the story to the first two arcs; Piccolo Daimaou is an important character, and should be reserved for a future book detailing the early events of Dragon Ball Z.

Too, in incorporating DR. GERO into the storyline, it is best to make the organization known as the RED RIBBON ARMY the primary "villain" throughout the early books.

In the first act, the organization will be mainly hinted at, with the focus on Pilaf-sama, here re-invented as a subordinate of Commander Red, president of the Red Ribbon Army, with key officers making cameos. Pilaf is charged with the mission of collecting the Dragon Balls for the organization's shadowy purposes.

The second act will focus more on the organization itself, as characterized through Son Goku's confrontations with its various officers, and will introduce the character of DR. GERO, who will be gradually dehumanized into a cold, calculating shell of a man over the course of the story. It will end on a huge cliffhanger, and the final act will pick up from there, recounting Dr. Gero's fall from grace and Son Goku's final stand against the Red Ribbon Army (only here, the battle will be joined by all of our heroes).

Included within these main plotlines will be all the themes and atmosphere associated with the pivotal 21st and 22nd Tenka-ichi Budoukai, as well as the introduction of important characters such as Muten-Roshi and Tenshinhan. Piccolo Daimao will be hinted at towards the end.

PICCOLO's ROLE:

Piccolo Daimao, from inside the Denshi Jar, is pulling the strings, so to speak, of the RR Army. He 'speaks' to Commander Red and through him accomplishes his will. In his grand scheme to conquer heaven and earth, he must first establish an army to his side, to secure his earthly empire. That army is the Red Ribbon Army.

The Piccolo Daimaou storyline will be reserved for the opening chapter of a future book, in order to give the reader a wider appreciation for the character. The following storylines, which involve the SAIYA-JIN and FREEZA arcs, will in part follow Piccolo's redemption and evolution as a character, detailing his journey from a being of pure evil to the no-nonsense protector of the earth.

But let's focus back on Book One!

NOTES


1. I'd like to see Book One focus mainly on the PILAF ARC. But nothing's set in stone, and this can be expanded upon. The length of the book should be between 200-300 pages.

2. Book One will introduce the characters of Son Goku, Bulma, Oolong, Yamucha, Pu'er, and Kame Sennin. Any more will simply overwhelm the reader, although I am considering injecting Kuririn into the original storyline.

3. For sake of simplicity, the villains are limited to Pilaf and his henchmen (Mai and Soba/Shuu), with various sub-villains such as Oolong, Yamucha, Gyumaou and Toninjinka as their underlings, under Pilaf's rule.

4. Rather than being a decidedly independant monarch, Pilaf is a subordinate of the Red Ribbon Army, charged with the task of collecting the Dragon Balls. For his proven loyalty, he has been stationed to a lofty palace in a Middle Eastern land.

5. Once he learns the true nature of the Dragon Balls, Pilaf secretly decides to turn on his superiors and utilize the power of the Dragon Balls for himself -- in order to obtain undisputed rulership of the world, as well as to 'protect' it from the REAL bad guys.

6. For his assignment, the Red Ribbon Army sends Pilaf their best shot (Mai) and Soba/Shuu, who happens to be a novice ninja.

7. General White and Pilaf (General Pilaf?) are rivals; White is jealous of Pilaf since his career with the Red Ribbon Army is winding down, whereas Pilaf's is just taking off.

8. Commander Red is especially fond of Pilaf and enjoys having him in his presence, if not only because the demon-midget is the only member of the Red Ribbon Army shorter than the Commander himself. There are hints that Pilaf may even have become Red's heir, supposing he had not revolted. Consider this foreshadowing for the Vegeta-Freeza relationship (minus the daddy issues).

9. General White overhears Commander Red and his advisors discuss his dismissal from the Red Ribbon Army. After hearing about Pilaf's new assignment from a fellow officer, White sets out to find the Dragon Balls before Pilaf can.

10. Dr. Gero, his wife (possibly named "Arale" as homage to Toriyama-sensei's other popular manga, Dr. Slump), Jinzoningen Hachigou ("Android No. 8"), and various officers of the Red Ribbon Army all have cameos ranging from brief to pivotal; however, the focus remains on Pilaf and Son Goku's first outing into the world.

Your input will be IMMENSELY appreciated! Also, what I really need right now are candidates for a series title (or even an individual book title, at this point)

:)
Last edited by Dragon Ball Daisuki on Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Eat Snow » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:26 pm

It seems like a neat idea. I like how you want to connect everything together. If you need any information about the Red Ribbon Army I'd be glad to help.

Yeah, I'm betting that this reply is shorter than the kind you were expecting.

EDIT:
As for possible titles, nothing comes to mind directly. Of course I'm a bit rushed because I have to leave to go to my job in a few minutes, but I'll try to think up titles while I'm there.
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Post by caejones » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:05 pm

Well, the delay gave me time to get back from ... where I was. ^^.

Fweee, I like when totally unexpected character relationships wind up working with shear awesome, and that seems to be where Pilaf's connections to White and Red are going... I think I'll call your ideas for them Genius.

One thing of interest, I think, is that you seem to want everything to connect--I really love how you've connected so many seemingly independent things into a coherent storyline with kick-awesome character setups, but characters like Oolong and Gyu-mao might be expected to be just... there. In fact... Gyu-mao existing outside of Pilaf's jurisdiction could be an interesting plot point... :idea:

Something else of interest, which you seemed to notice, is that it's a bit challenging to get Kuririn into the story with it flowing so smoothly. Though I'd imagine there's a way that wouldn't stretch things too much... that, and if he isn't introduced somewhere in the first book, the emotional payoff in the sequels might be a bit lacking.

Over all, still loving what you've come up with! ^^ :D .
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Post by Rocketman » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:56 am

Please, please, please do not interject Random Japanese™.

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Post by Dragon Ball Daisuki » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:45 pm

A few interested replies are better than no! Let's get the ball rolling...

Eat Snow: Thanks, buddy. For titles, I want something very reminiscent of the great fantasy novels of yore. For inspiration, do a quick search on some of Robert Jordan's books. I also appreciate your offer on supplying me with information regarding Red Ribbon (it seems you are a fan, to say the least). Sadly, unless you are aware of some especially obscure fact, I already know everything there is to know about them. I'm more interested in how we can re-invent the RR concept in an interesting way. Think: what was the RR doing before they were looking for the Dragon Balls? What's an independent organization with its own militia doing in a world that's united under one government? What is its ideology?

caejones: First, thanks for the kind words. Now let's get to your questions.
characters like Oolong and Gyu-mao might be expected to be just... there. In fact... Gyu-mao existing outside of Pilaf's jurisdiction could be an interesting plot point...
Well, as everyone's observed, I really want to weave a cohesive tapestry here. The common enemy/threat/conflict IS the Red Ribbon Army. To have main characters just be floating around independently, especially Oolong, seems somewhat... lazy. I say 'especially Oolong' since, from the beginning, Oolong has been sporting a hip communist's uniform for apparently no reason at all! This could easily be retconned into Oolong being a lower officer of the RR (I think his Journey to the West counter-part was originally a war general, in heaven?). Not that the RR is necessarily a communist movement, but I'd imagine they'd have some sort of official 'uniform' for persons of responsibility.

As for Gyumaou... that idea has potential, if you're willing to explore it a bit for me. The man is something of a two dimensional character (goes froma pupil of Muten-Roshi, to a mass murder, to... repenting once and becoming docile as a kitty cat forever more. Wow.), so any fleshing out of his character would be passionately welcomed. Ask yourself: how would the story play out if Gyumaou remained an independant monarch? What purpose would it serve? Would it create situations that could contribute to his character development? This would be ideal.
Something else of interest, which you seemed to notice, is that it's a bit challenging to get Kuririn into the story with it flowing so smoothly.
I've really been giving this a lot of thought, the last several nights, and here's what I've come up with for Kuririn. During one of the episodes detailing his training with Muten-Roshi, Kuririn has a flashback to his days at Orinji Temple. The other (older) monks are taking their turns beating on him, saying things like, "I can't believe the Master wastes his time on you!" and "The Master must keep him around only since he makes such a good punching bag!"

Now admittedly, I'm no expert on the lifestyle of the Shaolin monk, but this puts me under the impression that they are chosen, or selected, rather than raised. At least in the case of Kuririn. (Perhaps he was hand-picked by the Master, making all the older, more experienced monks jealous?) In keeping with our story involving General White, perhaps there could be a Dragon Ball in the Orinji Temple's midst? White and his men arrive to rape the land in search of their trinket, and Kuririn is the only one to escape, in keeping with his fellow monks' jeers at the 21st Tenka-ichi Budoukai regarding his tendancy to run away.

From there, we could give him a character arc similar to Panji's in DB Movie 1, wherein the forementioned leaves her tiny, oppressed village and is instructed to seek out the aid of the godly Kame-sennin; Kame-sennin says "rely on your own strength" and encourages the group to face the villains themselves. Only here, of course, Kuririn's motive is to to be directly trained in order, not only to heroically defeat White's men, but also to be able to teach those bullies back at Orinji temple a thing or two! So Roshi says, "Go with Goku and face your oppressors. If you still want to be trained after they've been defeated, return here and I'll train the two of you" This not only gives Kuririn an interesting motive, but really cements the two as rivals. It also fits in with Kuririn's first filler appearance, where he can be seen making his way around the world, thinking about how much stronger Kame-sennin will make him.

Opinions? Alternate ideas? These would be welcome.

Rocketman: Naturally, Japanese honouriffics (sp?) such as -sama, -san, -kun, -chan and -sensei would be in full effect. Is your questioned geared toward other Japanese expressions? Though I can't see how that would be relevant. At any rate, I just can't see myself trying to substitute these honouriffics with english titles, such as ... ahem... 'Emperor Pilaf' 'King Piccolo' and 'Ox King'.

:)

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Post by Jerseymilk » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:21 pm

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote: Rocketman: Naturally, Japanese honouriffics (sp?) such as -sama, -san, -kun, -chan and -sensei would be in full effect. Is your questioned geared toward other Japanese expressions? Though I can't see how that would be relevant. At any rate, I just can't see myself trying to substitute these honouriffics with english titles, such as ... ahem... 'Emperor Pilaf' 'King Piccolo' and 'Ox King'.
No he's referring to those annoyingly moronic fanfics written by equally annoying fangirls that interject Japanese words every now and then. Like the text will be English, then they'll have the character say, "Nani?" and "Gomen" and whatnot. :P
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Post by desirecampbell » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:45 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:No he's referring to those annoyingly moronic fanfics written by equally annoying fangirls that interject Japanese words every now and then. Like the text will be English, then they'll have the character say, "Nani?" and "Gomen" and whatnot. :P
Oh shit - I remember reading some of those. Damn that was terrible. :P

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Post by caejones » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:28 pm

"What the kuzo?" XD

Your Kuririn idea seems like a win. And given how his character develops through the rest of the series, this would make a fitting start. :D.


Actually... I think having Gyu-mao out of the control of the RRA could prove to be quite useful. Though now that I think about it, one of the main functions of that role that comes to mind seems like it could be served by Kamehouse just as easily... Hmm... I don't know!
Though this does make me consider Silver's dealings with Gyu-mao in the anime (Whew, everything between the end of the 21st Budokai and the Goku-Silver fight was filler, wasn't it?). Having a somewhat powerful person with some territory outside of RRA control could prove tactically interesting, at the very least. And I'm also reminded of his brief role in the Piccolo-has-taken-over-the-world period (Gyu-mao and ChiChi got loads of filler, didn't they?), which actually came to mind because I was thinking of his past as a student of KameSen'nin. Meh, I'm a bit confused on where exactly this paragraph is going... but I see potential useful-ness.
[edit] Ah, yeah... Gyu-mao has a lot of concern for his family, and having the inevitable RRA attack/Goku quest/...whatever else of the crazy variety would happen there... there's some kind of opportunity for either his development, or him to serve as a springboard for other characters to grow. *suddenly wonders about Tenshinhan's relationship to Kamesen'nin and what would happen if he asked Gyu-mao about his training or something*.[/edit]


And something related to Oolong's role came to mind, but I'm feeling half-dazed and can't figure out exactly what I'm thinking of... so I'll save it for later.
Last edited by caejones on Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:30 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:No he's referring to those annoyingly moronic fanfics written by equally annoying fangirls that interject Japanese words every now and then. Like the text will be English, then they'll have the character say, "Nani?" and "Gomen" and whatnot. :P
Oh shit - I remember reading some of those. Damn that was terrible. :P
Ya I find the Inu-Yasha ones are some of the worst for that. >>
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Post by Eat Snow » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:06 pm

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:Sadly, unless you are aware of some especially obscure fact, I already know everything there is to know about them. I'm more interested in how we can re-invent the RR concept in an interesting way. Think: what was the RR doing before they were looking for the Dragon Balls? What's an independent organization with its own militia doing in a world that's united under one government? What is its ideology?
I tried to think of titles and didn't get far. I haven't been getting enough sleep, so that's probably the cause.

Does Colonel Silver having a one-armed chair in his office or how Commander Red writes with a quill pen count as obscure facts?

As for what they were doing before, wasn't there this time when they were fighting with Capsule Corp. over the auto industry or something?
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Post by caejones » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:13 pm

Ah, yes... *thinks back to the podcast that eventually resulted in the MMJ questioning how the RRA gained so many capsules, and how it was decided they probably bought from the Z-store*
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Post by Rocketman » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:49 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:
Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote: Rocketman: Naturally, Japanese honouriffics (sp?) such as -sama, -san, -kun, -chan and -sensei would be in full effect. Is your questioned geared toward other Japanese expressions? Though I can't see how that would be relevant. At any rate, I just can't see myself trying to substitute these honouriffics with english titles, such as ... ahem... 'Emperor Pilaf' 'King Piccolo' and 'Ox King'.
No he's referring to those annoyingly moronic fanfics written by equally annoying fangirls that interject Japanese words every now and then. Like the text will be English, then they'll have the character say, "Nani?" and "Gomen" and whatnot. :P
That, and the honorifics. You are writing in English, correct? Then why include Random Japanese™?

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Post by desirecampbell » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:46 pm

Rocketman wrote:That, and the honorifics. You are writing in English, correct? Then why include Random Japanese™?
Three reasons:

ONE - Honourifics are nearly impossible to translate without a huge loss. Ignoring honourifics would be like ignoring Goku's 'hick speak'.

TWO - Honourifics are easily understood by native English speakers ('-san' is common enough that one could expect any English speaker to understand it.)

THREE - The honourifics are part of characterization. There's a difference between Piccolo calling Goku 'Son' and Bulma calling him 'Son-kun' and taking that away changing the character (which I think we can all agree is a bad thing).

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Post by Rocketman » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:39 pm

desirecampbell wrote:ONE - Honourifics are nearly impossible to translate without a huge loss. Ignoring honourifics would be like ignoring Goku's 'hick speak'.
Except Goku's Japanese hick talk is ignored and replaced with English hick talk.

Likewise, the Japanese honorifics should be ignored and replaced with their English equivalents.
THREE - The honourifics are part of characterization. There's a difference between Piccolo calling Goku 'Son' and Bulma calling him 'Son-kun' and taking that away changing the character (which I think we can all agree is a bad thing).
Changing the character? Piccolo still jams his elbow into Goku's shattered ribs, does he not?

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Post by Xyex » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:01 am

THREE - The honourifics are part of characterization. There's a difference between Piccolo calling Goku 'Son' and Bulma calling him 'Son-kun' and taking that away changing the character (which I think we can all agree is a bad thing).
It's not really so much as changing it as it is losing some of the characterization. Yes, you can still keep those elements in, without the honorifics, but it requires a more round-about process and probably wouldn't flow quite as nicely.

Also, I wouldn't consider honorifics 'random Japanese' in the context of Dragonworld, when you're trying to stay faithful to the original. As there is no Japan in Dragonworld the honorifics are simply part of that world itself, within the context of the original at least. If... that makes anysense. :?

Anyway, on to other matters for this thread.
4. Rather than being a decidedly independant monarch, Pilaf is a subordinate of the Red Ribbon Army, charged with the task of collecting the Dragon Balls. For his proven loyalty, he has been stationed to a lofty palace in a Middle Eastern land.
I just don't see Pilaf working under the RRA. However, I can see him as an independant monarch, seperate from the RRA, but with ties to them. Going with your idea of him and Red being something of pals this works out even better. Pilaf doesn't work for the RRA but with them. Sort of a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" kind of situation. He gives them land in his teritory to use for bases and such, they use their might to keep his people in line, etc. Just my thoughts.
Think: what was the RR doing before they were looking for the Dragon Balls? What's an independent organization with its own militia doing in a world that's united under one government? What is its ideology?
They come across as sort of a mix of a world conquest organization and the mafia. So, even before hunting the DBs they were always out for world domination. And to obtain the funds for such a large scale goal they're involved in pretty much everything illegal. I can also see them as 'hiring out' some of their more skilled opperatives to individuals for various tasks. Protection, assassination, etc, as a means of income.

Dragon Ball Daisuki, I rather like your thoughts on how to include Krillin. I was thinking similar. Along the lines that the temple had a DB, it got stolen and he feels responsible (maybe because he was too scared to try and stop them from taking it) so he sets out to get it back and runs across Goku and Co. in the process, since they're largely out for the same thing.

And as for titles... I've actually had names for three DB stories coving the Pilaf, RRA, and King Piccolo arcs in mind for a while. In order they would be: The Monkey Boy, Operation Conquest, and Rise of a Hero.
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Post by desirecampbell » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:07 am

Rocketman wrote: Except Goku's Japanese hick talk is ignored and replaced with English hick talk.
Likewise, the Japanese honorifics should be ignored and replaced with their English equivalents.
It shouldn't, and there really aren't any. What's the equivalent for Pilaf-sama? Kaio-sama? Kami-sama? Each use the same word to show respect, but not position; 'Emperor' and 'King' aren't appropriate, and what would you put after "God"? Goku-sa becomes Mista' Goku? Son-kun, Gohan-kun... 'Sonny' maybe? Should Gohan continue to call his wife 'Miss Videl'?
Changing the character? Piccolo still jams his elbow into Goku's shattered ribs, does he not?
Lame. His characterization goes far beyond what actions he takes and you know it. You could change all his dialog to 'DUH DUH DUH! DUH DUH DUH! I AM PICCOLO! DUH DUH DUH!' and still have him beat up Goku.

Further, in this case the dialog would be even more important than in other incarnations of the series - as a novel has no pictures.


I'm just saying, these are important parts of the character speech patterns, and there's no way to simulate this in English without losing meaning - and it's not a hard concept to grasp. They're honourifics - it's not even a question of language really, it's a culture thing; every culture has their own honourifics and they don't usually translate well.

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Post by Rocketman » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:17 am

desirecampbell wrote:It shouldn't, and there really aren't any. What's the equivalent for Pilaf-sama? Kaio-sama? Kami-sama? Each use the same word to show respect, but not position; 'Emperor' and 'King' aren't appropriate, and what would you put after "God"?
"Lord".
Goku-sa becomes Mista' Goku? Son-kun, Gohan-kun... 'Sonny' maybe? Should Gohan continue to call his wife 'Miss Videl'?
Extraneous. The familiarity (or lack thereof) would be conveyed by the rest of the dialog, y'know, like it's done in English.
Lame. His characterization goes far beyond what actions he takes and you know it. You could change all his dialog to 'DUH DUH DUH! DUH DUH DUH! I AM PICCOLO! DUH DUH DUH!' and still have him beat up Goku.
:lol: Point.
I'm just saying, these are important parts of the character speech patterns


In Japanese. In English, you use English speech patterns.
Also, I wouldn't consider honorifics 'random Japanese' in the context of Dragonworld, when you're trying to stay faithful to the original.
But he's not. He's going:
Goku: English. English english englishenglish english!
Bulma: English, english english english-japanese.
like hitting the wrong key on a piano.

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Post by Ex-Dubbie369 » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:22 am

desirecampbell wrote:Should Gohan continue to call his wife 'Miss Videl'?
That probably sums up all the problems when watching subbed ADV stuff.

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Post by desirecampbell » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:27 am

If your main contention is that it would be odd for a English speaking character to routinely use non-English words, then you might be concerned to learn that we all use non-English words all the time, or at least words that are not of English origin. English is basically a cobbled together slosh of French, German and Latin.

Plus, most of the character names are Japanese - so it's not like there won't be any Japanese words. Unless you also think we should call the characters 'Tea' and 'Rice dish' and 'Tea' (again). :P

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Post by Xyex » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:33 am

Rocketman wrote:But he's not. He's going:
Goku: English. English english englishenglish english!
Bulma: English, english english english-japanese.
like hitting the wrong key on a piano.
You could make the exact same arguement against including honorifics in the subtitles for shows too, but I don't see anyone doing that.
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