Honorifics: Necessity or Fanboy/Wapanese Fodder?

[Sebastian (SB)]

Leave em' in. Dragon Ball is a very asian oriented show to begin with, the western influences only come in later on the series, so I could understand the whole reasoning of not putting them in especially considering the serialization of the series here in the states. However if a show is very western influenced (like One Piece, Cowboy Bebop, etc.,), then I can understand the change.

[MarcFBR]

I say it depends on the given show and the character for how honorifics should be done.

dragonball z- heavy action, but obviously there are times just saying the characters name in an english version doesnt work (gohan calling him mr), other times theres not really any need for more then the first name

azumanga daioh- needed sometimes, not always

ai yori aoshi- heavily themed on japanese customs, keeping the japanese honorifics in most cases, even in the dub, was probably right on that one


it just depends on the show and the situation

[sailorspazz]

I used to be in the "leave 'em in" boat, but my views have started to change a bit lately as I think about what seems more professional instead of fangirl instinct. On one hand, yes, they do convey a lot about character relationships that can't necessarily be conveyed in English. On the other hand, if the characters are in a non-Japanese environment, it doesn't really make sense. Though they're speaking Japanese in the show because it was made in Japan, they're technically speaking the language of whichever culture the show has placed them in, and thus shouldn't be using Japanese honorifics.

So for shows where the characters are in Japan, I'd say leave 'em in. Other than that, I'm not so sure it's logical.

[Duo]

I like honorifics. They help explain character relationships and various other things.

And addressing a being as "Lord" doesn't?

Kun? Chan?

[Xyex]

I think it depends upon the show, really. For the most part, I see no real reason to include them. Reasonable translations can be made for most and others can be simply dropped without really changing anything (despite what others would claim). I think, really, the only time they *should* be included is when it helps with the setting.

I.E., if the location of the series is OBVIOUSLY Japan (such as Kenshin or Samuri Champloo) then the honorifics should remain, they're as much part of the setting as the dirt paths and building designs are. But for the vast majority of shows that either set in more modern times or in other worlds entirely (Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece) or western styled (Cowboy Bebop) they don't need to be there at all. (Not saying they shouldn't be. Just that they don't need to be.)

At least as far as dubbing goes. When it comes to the subs I think they should be left in. I really don't see the point in translating them in those instances, especially since the vast majority of people watching the subs would understand the honorifics anyway. Changing them in that case seem both pointless and redundant. Hearing Kaio-sama and seeing Lord Kaio... sure, it explains it, but it's not needed, IMO.

[Rocketman]

Kun? Chan?

What's the context? I don't recognize them offhand.

[aarondirebear]

At least as far as dubbing goes. When it comes to the subs I think they should be left in. I really don't see the point in translating them in those instances, especially since the vast majority of people watching the subs would understand the honorifics anyway. Changing them in that case seem both pointless and redundant. Hearing Kaio-sama and seeing Lord Kaio... sure, it explains it, but it's not needed, IMO.

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

[Mystery Person X]

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

The meaning of "deshou" is much more subtle than you seem to think, and sometimes not including such a strong "probably" in the sentence will still result in a perfectly accurate translation (and a less clumsy one). Unfortunately, Japanese and English are too different to have such strict 1:1 rules about how a certain sentence pattern should be translated - translation is an art, not a science.

If anything, Daimao's translations tend to be excessively literal. I don't think you can fault them for not sticking closely enough to the original grammar/sentence structure.

[Duo]

At least as far as dubbing goes. When it comes to the subs I think they should be left in. I really don't see the point in translating them in those instances, especially since the vast majority of people watching the subs would understand the honorifics anyway. Changing them in that case seem both pointless and redundant. Hearing Kaio-sama and seeing Lord Kaio... sure, it explains it, but it's not needed, IMO.

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

You're speaking about a guy who does Japanese for a living. No offense, but I'm pretty sure he knows worlds more than you. By far. If you hate his work so much, apply for his job.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

At least as far as dubbing goes. When it comes to the subs I think they should be left in. I really don't see the point in translating them in those instances, especially since the vast majority of people watching the subs would understand the honorifics anyway. Changing them in that case seem both pointless and redundant. Hearing Kaio-sama and seeing Lord Kaio... sure, it explains it, but it's not needed, IMO.

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

Ignorance at it's finest.

Anyway, I rather like honorifics, since I study the Japanese language. Keeping them in the subtitles can help you learn how they are actually used by real people (most of the time, anyway). But dubbed anime with honorifics just seems weird to me.

[Jerseymilk]

At least as far as dubbing goes. When it comes to the subs I think they should be left in. I really don't see the point in translating them in those instances, especially since the vast majority of people watching the subs would understand the honorifics anyway. Changing them in that case seem both pointless and redundant. Hearing Kaio-sama and seeing Lord Kaio... sure, it explains it, but it's not needed, IMO.

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

Your comments are so "cliche ignorant otaku" it's not even funny. I keep having to rub my eyes and tell myself you're just being sarcastic and not serious when I read posts like this from you.

[Sebastian (SB)]

I.E., if the location of the series is OBVIOUSLY Japan (such as Kenshin or Samuri Champloo) then the honorifics should remain, they're as much part of the setting as the dirt paths and building designs are. But for the vast majority of shows that either set in more modern times or in other worlds entirely (Dragonball, Naruto, One Piece) or western styled (Cowboy Bebop) they don't need to be there at all. (Not saying they shouldn't be. Just that they don't need to be.)

Eh, I may have to disagree with you on Dragon Ball & Naruto's part. Sure they take place in entirely different worlds, but it's heavily influenced & often reference to/by Asian culture, I feel that the honorifics give more a feel that they're in a culture different from ours. I don't think the honorifics should be stressed where they're not in such an environment. I just feel it should specific to some characters that may derive from such an environment while not really applying to others. Like I wouldn't mind if Freeza was referred to as Lord Freeza, while Goku would be reffered to as Goku-san, Son, or Son-kun by the likes of Kuririn, Piccolo, or Bulma because those are his closest of friends, that would make sense, & to add on Freeza's part. I believe the concept for him (or the whole sci-fi theme in the latter part) was of Western culture, so honorifics wouldn't be a neccesity. Bah, I could go on with this. I guess it just a matter of how people would approach such things.

[SaiyaJedi]

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

お前は黙っときな。文句する気だったら、日本語である程度の能力があると確認しろ。アホめ…

[future_trunks]

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

Ooh do you want to make your own dub? Once you make it I'll be sure to critizize you for every tiny mistake you make.

Go over to the " Room 29 Dub" thread and see how hard it is to do this kind of stuff.

[Mr.Piccolo]

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

You probably hate his subtitles because he'd probably translate your statement like this

..And people wonder why I hate Daimao's translations? They're frustrating and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese would notice. Deshoo means "probably" not "definitely"!

I suck, I know.
-Rick

[mAcChaos]

The more things change...

[Castor Troy]

At least as far as dubbing goes. When it comes to the subs I think they should be left in. I really don't see the point in translating them in those instances, especially since the vast majority of people watching the subs would understand the honorifics anyway. Changing them in that case seem both pointless and redundant. Hearing Kaio-sama and seeing Lord Kaio... sure, it explains it, but it's not needed, IMO.

And people WONDER why I hatye Daimaou's translations!
they're FRUSTRATING and there are obvious grammar mistakes that even someone who has taken only one semester of Japanese can notice.

DESHOO MEANS "PROBABLY" NOT "DEFINETLY"!!!!!

The only thing that really bugged me about Daimao's translations was "Madoshi Babidi". I know what it means, but the average watcher doesn't. I prefer the stuff that goes after the names like "kun", "san", "sama" to be left the way they are.

['lo Legends]

they shouldn't be kept in. It's called a 'translation" for a reason.

Most of the ones that have specific meaning are easily translatable into english, and the ones that aren't don't need to be translated. What do you gain by calling a character "name-chan" that wasn't there by just calling her "name" in english? Really nothing.

You cannot directly translate everything...I believe that leads to a very stale translation too.

[desirecampbell]

Most of the ones that have specific meaning are easily translatable into english, and the ones that aren't don't need to be translated. What do you gain by calling a character "name-chan" that wasn't there by just calling her "name" in english? Really nothing.

Huh? You could lose the entire point of the dialog! How a character uses honourifics (or doesn't) can tell a lot about their relationships.

For example, say your watching an anime that centers around a high-school aged boy and girl who are attracted to each other but can't seem to show it (I know, I know - who would ever make a show like that?). Perhaps there's a scene where the male lead tries to show his affection for the girl by calling her "Dora-chan" instead of his usual "Dora". How would you translate this? Simply "Dora"? What if the scene in question had him stammering the "chan"? What if the girl then questioned the boy about the added familiarity?

Some things just can't be dropped so easily.

You cannot directly translate everything

Exactly - you can't directly translate everything. That's why many people want those specific terms left untranslated, so no information is lost.

I believe that leads to a very stale translation too.

Really? I can't see how leaving in, you know, the script, would make it 'stale'.

[Mystery Person X]

Really? I can't see how leaving in, you know, the script, would make it 'stale'.

A stale translation is one that doesn't read like natural English. Honorifics are a part of normal, everyday speech in Japanese, but in English they stand out as foreign terms left in the translation, which (a) seems unnatural and (b) gives them a very different significance to the audience than they had originally. Not only that, but they're really prominent foreign terms that come up every time a character's name is spoken, even though in most cases they convey absolutely no information except "these people have the same relationship to each other as you would expect them to."

I think usage of them should be on a case-by-case basis, only in series where it's actually important and the distinction between honorifics can't be conveyed in alternative ways using normal English.