Honorifics: Necessity or Fanboy/Wapanese Fodder?

[Olivier Hague]

How a character uses honourifics (or doesn't) can tell a lot about their relationships.

Sure, but a translator could try and model the character's speech so that the reader would get the same idea.
I kinda agree with 'lo Legends: it's called a "translation" for a reason. I don't think you should expect the reader to know/memorize that many Japanese words ('cause, yeah, there's quite a lot of them).

For example, say your watching an anime that centers around a high-school aged boy and girl who are attracted to each other but can't seem to show it (I know, I know - who would ever make a show like that?). Perhaps there's a scene where the male lead tries to show his affection for the girl by calling her "Dora-chan" instead of his usual "Dora". How would you translate this? Simply "Dora"?

You could try and find another way to show that change.
Sure, that may not be easy, but that's the translator's job.

You cannot directly translate everything

Exactly - you can't directly translate everything. That's why many people want those specific terms left untranslated

(I'd say the keyword was "directly", there... you can't directly translate everything... but you can still try in other, indirect ways...)

so no information is lost.

Information will be lost anyway. That's unavoidable. Japanese and English are simply way too different. I'm afraid that's something you have to realize and accept.

Besides, what are "those specific terms", exactly? Like I said above, there are lots of them. Really.
Should we keep the "otôsan"? The "tôsan"? The "otôchan"? The "tôchan"? The "otôsama"? The "tôsama"? The "chichiue"? The "oyaji"? We'd have to explain each of these words when they appear (and considering some of these nuances simply don't exist in English...). The reader would have to memorize them.
And they all just mean "father" in one way or another, so there are many more left to learn. Wouldn't that turn the manga into a Japanese (language and culture) lesson? Is that really the job of a translator?

[desirecampbell]

even though in most cases they convey absolutely no information except "these people have the same relationship to each other as you would expect them to."

Sometimes, but not always. In many cases, honourifics are use to show what kind of relationship characters have. Again, I liken this to military ranks. I don't know what those ranks mean (I know 'private' is pretty low, and that 'admiral' is pretty high, but 'captain', 'major', 'lutenent', 'commander'... I couldn't tell you) but when used, they are actually quite important.

If a character uses a title that should denote respect to the party or subservitude to them, but then acts oppositely, it's clear that such a title is important.

I think usage of them should be on a case-by-case basis, only in series where it's actually important and the distinction between honorifics can't be conveyed in alternative ways using normal English.

Obviously when someone is translating a series, it comes down to their discression as to how much information can be dropped from the script. A series like DBZ doesn't really need honourifics for the main plot to be understood. Then again - a series like DBZ doesn't really need to be translated at all for the main plot to be understood. A couple of guys yell at each other, then fight, then Goku wins. He might be defeating "Great Demon Piccolo" or "Piccolo Daimao" or "Holy crap I'm named after a flute-man" - regardless, the main plot still comes through you just might miss a few underpinnings.

[Mystery Person X]

If a character uses a title that should denote respect to the party or subservitude to them, but then acts oppositely, it's clear that such a title is important.

Well, yeah, sometimes. But a character using "-san" to a superior and then being rude to them doesn't require the "-san" if it was clear anyway that the person is a superior. Like I said, in most cases the relationships are obvious anyway, and the honorifics merely reflect them. I maintain that in most cases they mean nothing - they'd be practically invisible to the Japanese audience.

Obviously when someone is translating a series, it comes down to their discression as to how much information can be dropped from the script.

Well, every translation from Japanese involves dropping some information from the original script. They're very different languages that convey the same information in very different ways and have very different nuances. (Olivier Hague's example of the different words for father is an excellent one.)

The point is, using honorifics in subtitles is a compromise. It makes the overall translation worse for the sake of conveying more information only to the people already familiar with the Japanese words that are being left in the translation. Sometimes it's a worthwhile compromise and sometimes it's not.

I'll point out again that including that including the honorifics also means a change in the way the dialogue is perceived, because natural Japanese is being translated into unnatural English. This loss of information works both ways.

A series like DBZ doesn't really need honourifics for the main plot to be understood. Then again - a series like DBZ doesn't really need to be translated at all for the main plot to be understood. A couple of guys yell at each other, then fight, then Goku wins. He might be defeating "Great Demon Piccolo" or "Piccolo Daimao" or "Holy crap I'm named after a flute-man" - regardless, the main plot still comes through you just might miss a few underpinnings.

Slippery slope argument.

Not translating DBZ at all would seriously impair your understanding of the series. Yeah, you'd be able to get the gist of it, but important information would be lost about the motivations of the characters and their relationships to each other, not to mention the mythology of the series.

On the other hand, leaving out the "-kun" in Bulma's "Son-kun" doesn't affect your understanding of the series at all. Bulma and Goku's relationship is clear anyway, so I don't think you're losing any meaningful information.

The fact that Goku doesn't use honorifics at all is an interesting detail, and possibly an argument for including the honorifics in DB/Z. Still, all it says is that he's an uncultured hick who's unintentionally rude to everyone, and I'd say that's clear anyway from his slangy speech (conveyed pretty well by Daimao's subs, from what little I've seen of them), his general cluelessness about everything and his willingness to touch people's crotches early on in DB =)

[Anonymous Friend]

The main thing you have to keep in mind is your audience. Who are the ones that will be viewing this? Who are the ones that will be reading it?

If it's print that's being translating, you could keep it in but if it's going to distact the casual reader from the story them you might want to drop it and find some other means to convey what's happening. And isn't that is the whole point of it.

Now, if we're refering to a moving picture, unless you're watching it with the closed captioning or subtitles on (and with these you would refer to the above paragraph) it is posible that those not in the know may confuse the honorifics with being part of the character's name (which I mistakenly did with FUNi's Basilisk dub). And if that's happens then not only have you totally screwed everything up, but the whole "keep the honorifics to make distinctions" objective is lost.

The whole job of a translator/interpretor is to help someone who speeks one language to understand something or someone in another language. And if you get stuck on things like these and are in fact confusing things more, then your not really doing your job. Best thing to do is find the closest posible word or phrase to best convey the idea and message.

Just remember guys, just because you may know what these things mean, doens't mean that everyone will. You're the minority here, the less than one percent.

[desirecampbell]

Just remember guys, just because you may know what these things mean, doens't mean that everyone will. You're the minority here, the less than one percent.

Noone likes my "add a glossary" idea?

[Mystery Person X]

Noone likes my "add a glossary" idea?

Liner notes are great for cultural details that simply can't be translated, or to give extra detail about cultural points that might not be understood even when translated (such as Japanese festivals or pop culture references). I just think that in most cases, neither of these applies to honorifics.

[MisterFlashdude]

More so than any other translated manga I've read, I've loved the way Del Rey handled Negima's translation. So, to add to the argument, I give you the foreward to the translations:

"Politeness has always been a critical facet of Japanese culture. Ever since the feudal era, when Japan was a highly stratified society, use of honorifics- which can be defined as polite speech that indicates relationships or status- has played an essential role in the Japanese language. When adressing someone in Japanese, an honorific usually takes the form of a suffix attached to one's name, or as a title at the end of one's name or in place of the name itself.

Honorifics can be expressions of respect or endearment. In the context of manga and anime, honorifics give insight into the nature of the relationship of the characters. Many translations into English leave out these important honorifics, and there fore distort the "feel" of the original Japanese. Because Japanese honorifics contain nuances that English honorifics lack, it is our policy at Del Rey not to translate them. Here, instead, is a guide to some of the honorifics you may encounter is Dey Rey Manga.'

It then goes on to give a nice little list of the honorifics. And at the end of the volume, there are a few pages of 'Translation notes' that explain some of the jokes and references to Japanese culture that were not edited.

Personally, I think if reading Japanese honorifics bothers you... you shouldn't read Japanese comics... There's pleanty of American comics that feel very English...

[mAcChaos]

That's just writing, though. What about for dubs?

[Rocketman]

If a character uses a title that should denote respect to the party or subservitude to them, but then acts oppositely, it's clear that such a title is important.

"Hey, King Kai! Kiss my ass!" wouldn't handle that correctly?

[Kaboom]

If a character uses a title that should denote respect to the party or subservitude to them, but then acts oppositely, it's clear that such a title is important.

"Hey, King Kai! Kiss my ass!" wouldn't handle that correctly?

*Goes to make specific alterations to the dub script*

[desirecampbell]

I kinda agree with 'lo Legends: it's called a "translation" for a reason. I don't think you should expect the reader to know/memorize that many Japanese words ('cause, yeah, there's quite a lot of them).

So, why not translate everything? Chichi would become "Tits", Muten Roshi would become "Old Heavenly Master", Gohan would become "Rice dish". Why translate honourifics but not names?

"Hey, King Kai! Kiss my ass!" wouldn't handle that correctly?

Actualy, no. Since "Kaio" means "lord of worlds", "king" or "lord" is part of his name.

Is he saying "Kaio sama", using the honourific as an insult, or is he saying "Kaio", directly showing his disrespect?

That's just writing, though. What about for dubs?

Like I said before, distributors could learn a lot from fansubs. Put quick translations notes in a smaller font, at the top of the screen as necessary. If you don't want extra subs you could simply include a glossary in the DVD booklet.

-edit-
Oh, "dubs". Easy, just keep 'em in. And put a glossary in the DVD booklet. Easy.

[Anonymous Friend]

Personally, I think if reading Japanese honorifics bothers you... you shouldn't read Japanese comics... There's pleanty of American comics that feel very English...

I don't kow if the fact that it bothers them that's the issue, but rather that most people don't know what they mean. I see a -dono, or -sama, or -chun, or whatever it the meaning is completely lost to me. And only those that are willing to take the time to find out what they mean will be the ones who will know whatr they mean. And like I stated before, they're the minority. If someone who picks up the manga starts reading it because the pictures look nice or someone refered him to it may find it distacting.

Why keep something in that the majority of your audience does not understand and may become put-off by it?

[Mystery Person X]

So, why not translate everything? Chichi would become "Tits", Muten Roshi would become "Old Heavenly Master", Gohan would become "Rice dish". Why translate honourifics but not names?

Because names and honorifics are totally different? In that, y'know, the English language actually has names in the same sense that the Japanese language does.

You and your slippery slope arguments...

Like I said before, distributors could learn a lot from fansubs.

Please no.

My problem isn't with the concept of translator's notes being used when necessary, it's that fansubbers are often horribly lazy. They go overboard and just give everything a translator's note rather than bothering to find a suitable English translation, even when the latter wouldn't be at all difficult or inaccurate. There's also a tendency to stick as closely as possible to the Japanese sentence structure, again at the expense of writing good English. As a result, a large proportion of fansubs present laughable translations full of retarded pseudo-English and occasional Japanese words that serve no purpose except to show off how kewl and l33t the fansubbers (and their watchers) think they are because they know a little Japanese.

"Hai" (Translator's note: Hai means yes)

[Rocketman]

I kinda agree with 'lo Legends: it's called a "translation" for a reason. I don't think you should expect the reader to know/memorize that many Japanese words ('cause, yeah, there's quite a lot of them).

So, why not translate everything? Chichi would become "Tits", Muten Roshi would become "Old Heavenly Master", Gohan would become "Rice dish". Why translate honourifics but not names?

Names aren't translated because they're names. Honorifics are apparently titles, and titles can be translated.

Actualy, no. Since "Kaio" means "lord of worlds", "king" or "lord" is part of his name.

Is he saying "Kaio sama", using the honourific as an insult, or is he saying "Kaio", directly showing his disrespect?

Does it matter if you're telling him to kiss your ass?

[Olivier Hague]

I don't think you should expect the reader to know/memorize that many Japanese words ('cause, yeah, there's quite a lot of them).

So, why not translate everything? Chichi would become "Tits", Muten Roshi would become "Old Heavenly Master", Gohan would become "Rice dish". Why translate honourifics but not names?

Oh, please. That's a terrible argument and you know it.

(well, except maybe for the "rôshi" bit, since that's not really a name)

a large proportion of fansubs present laughable translations full of retarded pseudo-English and occasional Japanese words that serve no purpose except to show off how kewl and l33t the fansubbers (and their watchers) think they are because they know a little Japanese.

Heck, I've seen fansubs actually have a character say "he's such a baka!"...

That being said, I don't necessarily have a problem with fansubs keeping honorifics (as long as the show takes place in a Japanese setting...) or adding lots of notes... because... well, they're fansubs. They're intended for a very specific niche of people who may know a few Japanese words or honorifics, or be willing to learn them.
But that's pretty much it, really. Professional translators should know better... They work for readers/viewers who don't know the original language and may not be interested in learning about it.

[Sebastian (SB)]

....So then Daimao isn't professional because he keeps honorifics?

[Olivier Hague]

....So then Daimao isn't professional because he keeps honorifics?

Well, I guess there may be exceptions, depending on the context, but... Yeah, like I said, if he does keep them, I think he should know better.

[kinoko]

I feel so completely on the fence when it comes to this "Wapanese" stuff (a word I've never seen before... someone enlighten me, please... >.<)

On the one hand, I dislike when translations use "Little ___" for -chan, and in terms of DB I would *hate* it if "Ten-san" suddenly became "Mr. Ten" (Viz using "Tenshinhan" in their DBZ volume 3 (Jp. tankobon 21) was enough of a blow for me..) Yet I don't mind when they're used in other cases (TP leaves honorifics in their translation of Fruits Basket, which I quite like. I think it conveys Tohru's personality best -- since she refers everyone with a -kun or -san.)

...But honorifics are an almost un-translatable (is that a word?) thing, a nuance in the Japanese language that can't really be brought over to an English translation. It's like the connotation is stronger than the denotation... I think the Japanese language can more easily convey layers of feeling with very few words, much better than English can.

I guess it depends on the work. I wonder if translators think deeply about whether they want to keep honorifics in or give them the boot...?

[Casual Matt]

I'm of the opinion that if something doesn't translate, keep in in Japanese.

And that by losing the honourifics, you lose part of the show.

Which honourifics they use says a lot about the characters. Like Freeza addressing Zarbon and Dodoria as Zarbon-san and Dodoria-san.

[MisterFlashdude]

I feel so completely on the fence when it comes to this "Wapanese" stuff (a word I've never seen before... someone enlighten me, please... >.<)

Wapanese is a derogatory term similar to 'Wigger' and is a combination of 'White' and 'Japanese'. In the same way Wigger is used to describe a white person who tends to act in an exajerated manner to be black, people are called 'Wapanese' when they display the characteristics of a cliche anime fan; in this case, he is refering to the aspect of using Japanese words in English conversation, specifically using said honorifics in English when some would deem them out of place.

Suffice to say, it's not exactly a nice word.