The FUNimation Dub's "Story" Changes

[Jerseymilk]

So...yea... the excuse along the lines of "we can charge more money this way" is the only one that has any hint of truth to it.

Opinion =/= fact, thanks.

Sean Schemmel, on the Japanese theme song "Head-Cha-La":
"Head-Cha-La," for another example and I've told you this Jon, even though it's very catchy, it's absolutely ridiculous for the American culture. (thumbs down Schemmel. Shakes angry fist)

What? He's right, you know. Have you even seen the lyrics? They song's fun and catchy but it's absolutely absurd and really doesn't fit with the show. If they'd have dubbed it or left it as is wth subs.... 85% of the audience would have laughed at it and changed the channel.

Sonny Strait, North American VA for Krillin, on FUNimation's new music score:
I think the main thing about them not using the original music, and I could be wrong, is because of the dated factor of it...But uh, there's definitely an appeal to it, but I don't think that it's as wide a range of appeal as what they want. I mean, people like you, and others that are die-hard anime fans are definitely gonna want as much of the original as possible, but I think the general population is more entertained by screaming guitars and such.

Another solid point. Loud rock music = popular. Orchastrated non rock music = not as popular.

Cindy Fukunaga, on the new music (1996):
No, we composed a new theme. It was done in Los Angeles. It's a very distinctive sound, and I'm told it's of the sort that's very popular among American children right now.

Yep, it was.

Composer Bruce Faulconer, on the music:
They wanted music that would better communicate to a Western audience the drama of this saga.

And again, correct.

And, of course, just before Gohan goes SS2, we hear Gohan's "dub" thoughts when the original only had Spirit vs. Spirit playing.

Which was an improvement, as far as I was concerned. Nothing but the BGM there was a bad choice on Toei's part. Lack of connection to a character reduces emotional impact~

*ahem* Um Xyex, "opinion =/= fact". Hopefully that sounds familiar to you. >>

[Xyex]

*ahem* Um Xyex, "opinion =/= fact". Hopefully that sounds familiar to you. >>

I never stated any opinions as facts.

[Jerseymilk]

*ahem* Um Xyex, "opinion =/= fact". Hopefully that sounds familiar to you. >>

I never stated any opinions as facts.

Ummmm, not where you simply quote Funi reps and state "Correct". That sounds like your implying fact to me. XP

[caejones]

I went through and listened to the bulk of the faulconer stuff on my computer a couple hours ago. I... don't really know what my conclusion was. He likes his bass too much?

One scene that really annoyed me on my most recent watch of the Freeza saga dubbed...
when Gohan's waiting for Krillin to return with Dende, and sees Ginyu the frog.
Why the hell are guitars and basses playing there?
I think it starts making more sense once the "girl frog??" appears, but... why is "hanging out at Freeza's ship" translated into "Duuum duum duuum! Nothing's happening duum duuum duuuumm!"
There are a few other places that seem over done. I think Faulconer kinda knew what he was doing, but... egh... went a weird direction with a few things. Ur... and mostly with DBZ, the orchestral stuff (from Faulconer) seems to have a more appropriate feel to it (try 'the new earth music').

I still want to conclude the dub was going for "Rar! Violence! Action! EXTREEEEME! Heart-pumping High Speed RUSH!" Whereas the original was more like "Flare up! A close up intense battle!" Ur... wait.. . no..

The most recent time I recall someone putting up links to the Funi Vs Japanese versions of the SSJ2 transformation... Egh, I don't know, the difference seemed rather huge. Faulconer's '#16/Dende/birdies' theme worked rather well for Sixteen's speech and even up through after Cell crushed him. Everythingafter that was... ... sickeningly generic. Especially the music used once the transformation occurred. With Spirit Vs. Spirit, it's fairly obvious we're looking at a one-time, super amazing event. With the piece used in the dub (which is a section from the Hyperbolic Time Chamber theme, I think), it's just a generic super powerup. I'll venture that the inner monologue after Sixteen's 'death' was the only way that scene could really be salaged with such a flop from the scream onward; I wonder if, perhaps, had something different been done with the BGM, any inner monologuing might have worked better? (I spelled monologuing wrong. Umm... ).
Though personally, I found the chilled silence backed by Spirit Vs. Spirit suddenly exploding into a Nozawa scream to be way more dramatic and enjoyable than the speech we got in the dub.

Uh... ... Yeah.
... and what people will and won't like isn't something those outside the demographic can really pickup on as easily as insiders.

Onikage's comments on the divisiveness of Funi's DBZ really seem to get the poit across. :shrug:.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Onikage725]

Opinion =/= fact, thanks.

Yes, and I am of the opinion that any stated reason beyond the bottom dollar was a line fed to us from corporate. I am still allowed to express opinions here, right?

Cindy Fukunaga, on the new music (1996):
No, we composed a new theme. It was done in Los Angeles. It's a very distinctive sound, and I'm told it's of the sort that's very popular among American children right now.

Yep, it was.

Ha... Rock the Dragon.

Composer Bruce Faulconer, on the music:
They wanted music that would better communicate to a Western audience the drama of this saga.

And again, correct.

Opinion =/= fact, thanks.

Actually the most annoying instance I can think of where dialogue was added when there wasn't originally any was in the Bardock Special whenever Bardock had his visions.

The funniest thing for me was back when I had Cell Saga singles, if I put on Japanese but the wrong sub track... it wasn't just adding dialogue to silence. It was like diarrhea of the mouth. Whole paragraphs of text would flood the screen during brief moments of silence. And my god, the flashbacks! Such glorious examples of rampant half-assed fanfiction in an officially released product!

There are a few other places that seem over done. I think Faulconer kinda knew what he was doing, but... egh... went a weird direction with a few things. Ur... and mostly with DBZ, the orchestral stuff (from Faulconer) seems to have a more appropriate feel to it (try 'the new earth music').

Agreed. There are some tunes I think fit here and there, and they tend to be of an orchestral nature I noticed. Like SSJ3 ascension was pretty cool, and I actually did think the Final Flash on Cell worked better with Vegeta's theme playing rather than no bgm.

And once again I stress... copies of Kikuchi's score continue to sell and sell big almost two goddamn decades later. That's proven staying power if ever I saw it. If Faulconer's shit is so "popular" and "more with the times" then where are the throngs of fans forking over to nab up copies of his work?

Apparently they're on Amazon :p

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/00 ... er&x=0&y=0

Buu the Majin Sagas? Why does this sound like a shitty fanlation? And an "Android 18" CD complete with random blonde chick on the cover?. Classic.

[desirecampbell]

In what parallel reality does glorified club techno communicate drama better than an actual orchestral score?

I would posit that there are times when a synthesizer based score would be more appropriate. It's not here, but you know, somewhere it could be.

Everything else though, spot on.

[Artificial Human #887]

Personally, I dislike adding dialogue in places where there wasn't any.

I cringe when I listen to the speech Vegeta made after he went SSJ. It starts out with a whole bunch of added stuff, and then goes on to completely change the cause of his transformation.

Super lame.

The original scene is so much more powerful, watching the flashback with just the music, only have a short speech at the end... all of which doesn't imply that his "giving up" turned him into a Super Saiyajin.

It's one of my biggest qualms with the dub changes.

[Onikage725]

Personally, I dislike adding dialogue in places where there wasn't any.

I cringe when I listen to the speech Vegeta made after he went SSJ. It starts out with a whole bunch of added stuff, and then goes on to completely change the cause of his transformation.

Super lame.

The original scene is so much more powerful, watching the flashback with just the music, only have a short speech at the end... all of which doesn't imply that his "giving up" turned him into a Super Saiyajin.

It's one of my biggest qualms with the dub changes.

Heh... I remember the pain it was trying to clear that one up for my little brothers (who only have access to the dub). I'm not sure how we go from being angry at his failure to surpass Goku to not caring about anything, surpassing Goku included. Way to miss the point guys.

"Whoa guys. You know who just joined the Super Saiyan Club."

[VegettoEX]

The score she was referring to in that interview was Shuki Levy's score from the Saban days. Have you ever heard it? If so, can you recall or hum even one tune or piece of a tune from that soundtrack? If so, your memory is beyond impeccable, and I applaud you sir.

While I agree with the majority of the points you've brought up, I'll call shenanigans on this one. *I* remember many parts of the original 53-episodes'-score from Levy for two reason:

(1) I'm, as it should be fairly obvious, much more of a hardcore fan than probably 99% of DragonBall fandom. I know a lot of stuff inside and out like nobody's business, and this includes Levy's musical score. It's not because it's "good" music. This leads into...

(2) Pure nostalgia. For a good period of time, that's all I had. I watched it over and over. I got the soundtrack and listened to it from time to time (I still listen to the episode 1 track every so often). Just like how people can quote their favorite movies, or maybe Futurama and Family Guy episodes today, I can "quote" the music (and dialogue) from those early dub episodes. It's not like I still watch them, have any desire to really pop them in again, or that there's any inherent "good" quality to them... but I still know them like the back of my hand. And I'm more than willing to accept and acknowledge that the same thing happened a mere three/four years later with lots of other people and FUNimation's new DBZ season three dub on Cartoon Network. The Faulconer score is meaningless and essentially non-existent to me, but it is almost an accepted state-of-being sole reality for hundreds upon thousands of people. And again, this has nothing to do with it possibly having any sort of "good" (or, for this matter, "bad") inherent quality to/about it.

And an "Android 18" CD complete with random blonde chick on the cover?. Classic.

I believe that's Meredith (insert last name here), the voice actress who played #18 in FUNimation's dub, and the performer of whatever vocal tracks happen to be on it. I don't own it, won't be purchasing it, and know nothing beyond that... so perhaps someone else can explain.

[Onikage725]

There are vocal tracks?

Wait, we have American "image songs?"

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I need to hear one of these.

[Herms]

Sean Schemmel, on the Japanese theme song "Head-Cha-La":
"Head-Cha-La," for another example and I've told you this Jon, even though it's very catchy, it's absolutely ridiculous for the American culture. (thumbs down Schemmel. Shakes angry fist)

What? He's right, you know. Have you even seen the lyrics? They song's fun and catchy but it's absolutely absurd and really doesn't fit with the show. If they'd have dubbed it or left it as is wth subs.... 85% of the audience would have laughed at it and changed the channel.

I don't really see how its lyrics are any more absurd than those of American cartoons ("heroes in a half shell, turtle power!"). The only real difference is that they don't directly relate to the show's contents, but if that was a problem they could just keep the tune but given it different lyrics.

And they idea that the song somehow doesn't fit the show: well, that ties back into the difference in how the show was presented in America, which Kunzait has already posted quite a bit about already. If you're used to the American presentation, than the song would seem unfitting, but if they had simply presented it in a way that was more faithful to the original, than that probably wouldn't be the case.

[NeptuneKai]

There are vocal tracks?

Wait, we have American "image songs?"

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I need to hear one of these.

I said it once but I'll say it again, Sabat singing "Cooking Hell" would make my life.

[desirecampbell]

There are vocal tracks?
Wait, we have American "image songs?"
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I need to hear one of these.

I said it once but I'll say it again, Sabat singing "Cooking Hell" would make my life.

Pffft. Horikawa, Drummond, or bust.

[Jerseymilk]

I believe that's Meredith (insert last name here), the voice actress who played #18 in FUNimation's dub

(McCoy). And she actually is a trained singer.

I said it once but I'll say it again, Sabat singing "Cooking Hell" would make my life.

No. Just no. >>

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Super Sonic]

I believe that's Meredith (insert last name here), the voice actress who played #18 in FUNimation's dub

(McCoy). And she actually is a trained singer.

She's quite a good singer. Look at the Fruits Basket theme.

[Onikage725]

As usual, Kunzait better expands upon a point I tried to make-

In Japan, merchandising runs deep. And anime is, and was back then, mainstream. So the music in most animes is done with as much care as every aspect of the series. After all, there is every intention of selling an OST.

In america, back then, cartoons were strictly for kids. Selling toys and VHS tapes was about as deep as it went. Do you remember anyone waving around a deluxe edition Silver Hawks OST with complimentary artbook and keychain? Didn't think so. Such things didn't exist over here.

So by "americanizing" the soundtrack for DBZ, using methods similar to the cartoons of the 80's and early 90's, we ended up with 2 seasons of generic afterthought. The original score, on the other hand, was one composed to go along with the series and enhance it. Whether you think it succeeds or fails is a matter of opinion, but I still contend that the show would have stood on its own without tinkering of that magnitude.

[Vekurotto]

Sean Schemmel, on the Japanese theme song "Head-Cha-La":
"Head-Cha-La," for another example and I've told you this Jon, even though it's very catchy, it's absolutely ridiculous for the American culture. (thumbs down Schemmel. Shakes angry fist)

What? He's right, you know. Have you even seen the lyrics? They song's fun and catchy but it's absolutely absurd and really doesn't fit with the show. If they'd have dubbed it or left it as is wth subs.... 85% of the audience would have laughed at it and changed the channel.

I doubt you'd be saying that if they actually dubbed the song instead of making a 30 sec. OP and ED, with the same song mind you, that only consistences of a clip show of senseless, random crap from season 3 and the Garlic Jr. portions for the Freeza-end of Cell episodes in the dub. Those OP and EDs are even more ridiculous than the actual OP and ED from a stand point that, "it makes no fucking sense at all.". What's funny is that I never hear any complaints about Funi's decision to dub "Mystical Adventure" and "Romantic Ageru Yo", yet I'm betting that if Funi didn't decide to dub them and made their own OP and ED themes, people would say the exact same thing that they say about "Cha La" and "Zenaki Power". Which leads me to believe that if they would've dubbed the OPs and EDs or left them alone in the first place, nobody would say anything about what "fits" the situation.

Sonny Strait, North American VA for Krillin, on FUNimation's new music score:
I think the main thing about them not using the original music, and I could be wrong, is because of the dated factor of it...But uh, there's definitely an appeal to it, but I don't think that it's as wide a range of appeal as what they want. I mean, people like you, and others that are die-hard anime fans are definitely gonna want as much of the original as possible, but I think the general population is more entertained by screaming guitars and such.

Another solid point. Loud rock music = popular. Orchastrated non rock music = not as popular.

I guess you're overlooking the fact that we've got people in the dub community that go on tirades about how much they hate the music in the Trunks and Bardock specials and in DBZ movies 4, 5, and 8 even though they were performed by "real" bands with loud guitars and featured people that the mainstream knew of. I'm pretty sure all of the Funi employees were going, "But how can't they like it? This music's popular!!" Just because something's popular doesn't mean that it'll work out better in the end. In fact, following what's popular in solely the current culture and not looking ahead to see how long your decision will last you is like saying "please make me regret this." and then shoot yourself in the foot when it undoubtedly becomes less and less popular or proves to only be a fad of the time. Disco, early 90's rap, and the GT rap are prime examples.

Speaking of, I remember reading somewhere(maybe in Animerica even?) that when they were dubbing that special, Sonny Strait who played Bardock wanted to get a copy of the Japanese version to see how Nozawa portrayed the character. Apparently he couldn't find a copy at all at Funimation and had to settle on the Mexican one. Perhaps it's just another of those "hearsay stories", but it's pretty sad concerning Funi if it is valid.

yeah he said that in the quotes page I linked to. I can always imagine the conversation going like this,

Strait: Hey do you have the Japanese audio for that DBZ special I'm going to be doing.

(Gen using the Japanese audio reel as a footrest)

Gen: Nope haven't seen it. Here's the Spanish one.

[The Time Traveller]

I said it once but I'll say it again, Sabat singing "Cooking Hell" would make my life.

No. Just no. >>

It's a funny song, having Sabat sing it will just make me puke with laughter.

But hearing Mike McFarland singing Muten Roshi no Oshie would surely kill me.