"It's Dated"... Retort?

[kenisu3000]

As a good, recent example, The Transformers movie. There are no redeeming qualities to it, yet there are (apparently) millions of people who would swear that the CGI was top-notch, the script was coherent and funny, the action was well choreographed, etc - when in actuality, these parts were all done badly and you can show how they were done badly. When someone says 'the action was great' they have absolutely no way of backing it up. Which is exactly the same as these 'dated' music critics.

THANK YOU! I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that way about the Transformers movie. I couldn't have put it any better myself. Not to mention I had been looking for a good analogy to describe what I think of these critics of the Japanese DragonBall score, and that nails it right there.

[desirecampbell]

People just don't examine the artforms they view.

Because there's no need. If it entertains, the art has served its purpose. The only people who examine are either stuffed-shirt elitists who can't understand how people can possibly be having fun with something their mighty intellect has deemed inferior (re: Guitar Hero, summer action movies, Dragonball itself) or college students hoping to score extra points on their papers by invoking whichever philosophical school their professor belongs to.

Sigh, And I could say that those who fail to support their views with logic are "unenlightened, barbaric imbeciles, who are so unimaginatively stupid that they apparently find enjoyment at random."

Goddamnt, isn't this entire topic about communication where there are only emotional statements? Isn't the point here to be able to discuss the topic, rather than simply interject with "you're stupid for not agreeing with me, I hate you, you suck"?

I completely agree with Rocketman. It's true; entertainment is just entertainment. It's not world politics or anything important. Unless it's actually *harmful* in some way or something (which there are certain things I would label as such), if you enjoy something and find fun or value in it, why should you have to give a damn whether other people "approve" of it or not? One shouldn't HAVE to justify liking something if it's just for kicks. That goes for music, art, movies, games, DVD releases... whatever.

Noone has to justify anything. But in this specific discussion it's the entire goddamn point.

Kaboom, Rocketman, are you feeling angry or even a bit insulted that I would suggest that, perhaps, what you enjoy may not actually be as good as you believe it to be? The only reason anyone would respond in such a manner would be because they realize they do the thing that has been explained as foolish, and are now feeling foolish themselves. This actually perfectly illustrates the topic at hand. You have an opinion about something, yet you feel it unnecessary to back up such points.

I chose the Transformers movie specifically because I know many members of this board find enjoyment in watching it, and gambled on one of such posters responding. I hoped to have them attempt, and fail, at asserting the movie's "good" points, but you've gone one better and shown that such a person won't even try to do so.


To defuse any hostile feelings, let me explain two things I assumed everyone knew already:
1. Everything you enjoy, you enjoy it for a reason. You may not understand it, you may not be able to articulate it properly, but there are reasons. Don't simply shrug off the idea of logical entertainment choices simply because you don't understand it.

2. A piece of art being 'good' and you, personally, enjoying it, are two entirely separate and distinct things. You can fail to enjoy good art, and you can repeatedly enjoy bad art - everyone does. Just because you like it, doesn't mean it's good; and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's bad.

Putting this together, the Transformers movie has a lot of 'action' scenes (though poorly choreographed and blocked) as well as some comic relief (albeit vaguely, racist and misogynistic) and sexual tension (in the form of a few attractive women in reveling clothes). If you find these things enjoyable, you'll probably enjoy the film. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the film (and in extension, anything else), and noone's every said that doing so would make you a bad person, and that those that didn't were somehow better than you - all that was done was a pointing out of the facts of the art piece, you're extremely negative reaction only highlights your lack of reasoning.

[Rocketman]

Sigh, And I could say that those who fail to support their views with logic are "unenlightened, barbaric imbeciles, who are so unimaginatively stupid that they apparently find enjoyment at random."

I'm from the South, I get that anyway.

Kaboom, Rocketman, are you feeling angry or even a bit insulted that I would suggest that, perhaps, what you enjoy may not actually be as good as you believe it to be?

Not particularly. Hell, I enjoy Godzilla movies, the original Star Trek, the Ghost Rider movie and NASCAR, and I know that on any objective sdcale of "good", they'd be pretty far down.

The only reason anyone would respond in such a manner would be because they realize they do the thing that has been explained as foolish, and are now feeling foolish themselves.

Actually, it's because I'm sick of people like you. I know it's bad. I like it anyway. People like you refuse to accept anything so illogical and proceed to annoy me about it until I either tell you to fuck off or I leave, at which point you crow about how your awesome mind powers were right and that barbarian was surely frustrated at being confronted with your most pure light.

[desirecampbell]

Actually, it's because I'm sick of people like you. I know it's bad. I like it anyway. People like you refuse to accept anything so illogical and proceed to annoy me about it until I either tell you to fuck off or I leave, at which point you crow about how your awesome mind powers were right and that barbarian was surely frustrated at being confronted with your most pure light.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the film (and in extension, anything else), and noone's every said that doing so would make you a bad person, and that those that didn't were somehow better than you

Just making yourself look more like a dick.

[caejones]

This will not end well.
... Though I was thinking of offering to pay Desire and Rocketman to point out why the stuff I make sucks.

This actually reminds me of a fight between an autistic adult and the parent of an autistic child, actually. (Awe hell, if I keep that in, it's going to ruin this whole post...).

In brief:
Desire: Logic is good.
Rocketman: I don't care.
PeopleThisThreadWasRefuting: Neither do we, but we do care about feeling better about stuff so we'll pretend we do.

If I had to guess, I'd say psychology is a b.

[VegettoEX]

Let's try and remain friendly and on-topic, folks. I hate it when I have to close threads, and I hate it even more when I have to close threads that I actually started...

[Kaboom]

The only reason anyone would respond in such a manner would be because they realize they do the thing that has been explained as foolish, and are now feeling foolish themselves.

No, this is the whole point. Just because Person A doesn't find "any redeeming qualities" in something doesn't mean Person B won't find a few. It's a matter of tastes, opinions, and how easy or otherwise one is to please. You can dislike something all you want, but to exclaim your dislike with a "only a juvenile baboon would like this garbage" message when you KNOW there are perfectly sane and reasonable people to hear you say that... then that's just rude, presumptuous, and pretty darn uncalled for. To then respond with a "you just realize I'm right and don't like it" is even moreso of that, and juvenile too. Even if Rocketman's sarcasm and language were, as well.

But fine, I'll give in and explain my reasons on why I like these things, to explain my point and so as not to come off as a "barbaric imbecile." Though I will readily admit that while I'm not without some standards, I'm still a fairly easy person to please or entertain.

I liked Transformers primarily because it had big robots beating the bolts out of each other. The CGI in the movie was not perfect (none is yet), but was more than good enough to get that across. The large amount of humans in the movie and the roles they played were a plus for me, and I usually enjoyed the comic relief they often brought. The action camera work did not bother me either, and it helped add to my sense of urgency and panic during the fight scenes. The teen romance did not bother me either; I expect it to some level in any movie that has a teenage protagonist nowadays.

I like the Spider-Man movies because I like Spider-Man, and have since I was very little. That in itself is enough for me. Seeing ol' bug-eyes swinging around and fighting badguys in the "real" New York City was exhilarating the first time I saw it in the trailer, and held the same feeling every time he did it in the movie and the sequels. I like just about all the casting choices, save for Tobey Maguire as Peter Parker. He's okay, but they could've easily found someone better. Willem Dafoe has deeply impressed me every time with his very calculating, sinister portrayal of Norman Osborn. I like the way the characters and the stories have been adapted to fit in a 2-hour-long movie, and for the 21st century movie audiences.

On that note, while as a Spidey fan, I would have liked, nay, loved to have seen Gwen Stacy be Peter's love interest from the get-go, I also know that if you were to go up to any random shmoe on the street and ask, "Who is Spider-Man's girlfriend/wife?" that, provided they don't happen to be followers of Joe "The Beast" Quesada, 90-plus percent of the time the answer would be "Mary Jane." Since this movie is very much made for the multitude of "average shmoes" that make up the moviegoing masses and not we geeky, picky comic book fans, I find that making MJ the object of Pete's affection from the beginning is, at the very least, understandable. The fact that they still found a way to bring in Gwen Stacy later on was a bonus, and I was pleasantly surprised.

I like Superman Returns, and most other movies of the like, and I'm liking the DragonBall movie so far for the same reasons as well. Just switch around the names or whatever.

There, I've fully explained why I like what I like. I was careful to make it clear that they are my own opinions, and not trying to simply impose some "fact" of "they're good" or "they're bad." To top it off, I did it all without once coming across as snarky or superior, or insulting anyone else's intelligence or taste.

The same thing applies to DragonBall and its music. I like just about all the Japanese music for DBZ, but I also like a few Faucloner tracks at the same time, like "SSj3 Ascension." I also hate just about all the dub music for GT, though I still think the Japanese version used "Dan Dan" too much.

To better relate to the topic at hand, when it comes to a reason as to why one doesn't like the Japanese BGM, "it's dated" really is a pretty dumb answer, for the reasons already given. But while it actually may be their honest opinion sometimes, it may also be a result of being pressed for a reason when they really just don't have one. Tastes and opinions are just funny and fickle things that way.

[desirecampbell]

Sigh, let's go and quote myself again, and bold some things.

Putting this together, the Transformers movie has a lot of 'action' scenes (though poorly choreographed and blocked) as well as some comic relief (albeit vaguely, racist and misogynistic) and sexual tension (in the form of a few attractive women in reveling clothes). If you find these things enjoyable, you'll probably enjoy the film. There's nothing wrong with enjoying the film (and in extension, anything else), and noone's every said that doing so would make you a bad person, and that those that didn't were somehow better than you - all that was done was a pointing out of the facts of the art piece, you're extremely negative reaction only highlights your lack of reasoning.

You have very low standards for entertainment. This is not a personal failing, nay, some may say it's a great boon. But the fact still stands that you enjoy things easily. This is not an argument, this is a fact.

I like the Spider-Man movies because I like Spider-Man, and have since I was very little.

Indeed, you need only have a film that is in some way connected to something you already like and have nostalgic attachment to to enjoy it - in your own words. Despite the film's lack of continuity to the original work, and the poor acting, and the rather clichéd script, you enjoyed it. The same can be said for all the other films you mentioned - they have many faults but you still liked them anyway.

Again, this is not a fault. This is not bad. I have not, nor has anyone else, made any mention of such a thing. I have no idea where you're getting this idea that anyone, and specifically me, has made any indication that they think they are better than the next guy. I really just don't know what to say. My whole point on the topic was in my initial post, and now I'm just trying to re-explain that I've not said anything to the effect of "only a juvenile baboon would like this garbage", nor have I insulted anyone - not that anyone's been giving me any reason not to. Do you have any specific complaints about any of my posts? Quote me where I said something you found offensive, or even hinted toward any of the complaints you have.

[VegettoEX]

Do you have any specific complaints about any of my posts? Quote me where I said something you found offensive, or even hinted toward any of the complaints you have.

Or... we could move on and talk about what I wanted to talk about .

[Kaboom]

Do you have any specific complaints about any of my posts?

Nah, not particularly. Rocketman could probably pick something out more easily than I could, anyway. Mike's already pointed out recently a bit about your, well, lack of any tact at times, and that can often come across as insulting or condescending in the wrong/right context. On top of that, I've been having a rather hard time of it lately in "the real world," and I'm just a little more easily frustrated and riled at the moment because of it.

But yeah, you've specifically asked me before what I liked about those two movies in particular, so when they got brought up again, I decided to answer this time. Like you and I both said, they're kinda fickle, illogical reasons, but that's the way tastes and opinions work. At least I now know my message has gotten through and we're on the same page. Also, you must've added to some of your earlier posts or something; I didn't see the part you quoted there. Probably wouldn't have slightly overreacted like I did.


As for the "topic," I've already said what I've got to say on it.

[kenisu3000]

Back on the subject of the "dated" factor of the BGM, I would like to reiterate that nostalgia does indeed play a huge part on preference. Like I mentioned earlier, there were a whole bunch of cartoons I used to watch as a child in the 80's which had very memorable background music, and even years after I had quit watching these shows, the music would still occasionally pop up in my head. Eventually it got to the point where I wouldn't even remember where the song in question came from - all I knew was, it was there, and I had caught myself humming it. It was only once all the DVDs of these things from my childhood started coming out that I recognized their original source. Talk about a blast from the past.
So not only does classic BGM leave enough of an impression on us to contribute to the "fondness" factor of our memories, but the really good stuff pretty much gets ingrained into our very being. And I'm speaking for both the Japanese and American DragonBall scores here, as I still get "Ginyu Transformation" stuck in my head every now and again.