"It's Dated"... Retort?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:08 pm

Wanted to spur a little conversation on this, because I know I can count on the people here to actually back up thoughts with evidence and relevance. Kinda just typing without any real thought process, so I apologize in advance if I'm leaving anything out, something doesn't make sense, etc.

A common complaint I hear from "dubbies" about the original Japanese version is that its musical score is "dated". It's no secret that DragonBall aired from 1986 to 1997; even the most recent episode is well over ten years old.

However, let's wander on over to FUNimation's dub, and first examine theme songs. If you ask me (which you didn't), each theme song iteration is a conscious and forced attempt to reach "the time" of its production. "Get That DragonBall" was the same whimsical, upbeat, peppy type of theme song that we were so used in the 80s and early 90s (FUNimation was a little late with this one, in my opinion). "Rock the Dragon" came just after the idea of more "gritty" cartoons and themes. Faulconer's theme songs... well, I honestly don't know what to say about them. I don't really think of them as theme songs, actually. The dub DBGT opening? A way-too-late attempt to cash in on the rock/rap movement of popular music.

So let's look at the domestic BGM, ignoring DB, since it was only 13 episodes and didn't have a chance to do much (the theme was more relevant since it was the first introduction, and even FUNimation kept it around for a while, using it in the DB movie 2 dub).

Shuki Levy's music could not possibly be any more mid-90s. It sounds like X-Men and Power Rangers.

Faulconer's music sounds like... well, again, I don't really know. Thoughts?

Menza's music took the even further forced "gritty" sound and tried to incorporate things like hip-hop beats and samples. I think. I don't really know. I've heard about 30 seconds of dubbed DBGT in my life.

My point is that they all sound "dated". When I hear them, I can place what time/decade they are from.

In (let's just say) ten years, are these dub fans with fond memories of their music going to look back at said dub and be able to objectively say that the music sounds "dated"...? Quite frankly, I don't know that these kinds of people will be able to do to themselves what they're doing to the original score.

This is less of a "waaahh waaaah" whine than it is an "Oh, isn't that interesting...? (possibly insert snicker here)." DB has risen such an interesting wave of popularity, and it seems to me like we're in a place where it's really cool to like the series again, but if you're going to like it, you have to hate on the Japanese version because now it's old.

Insert additional unrelated comments about FUNimation's marketing being genius and essentially shaping their fans like clay being the sheep they are, but I digress and only somewhat apologize.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:28 pm

Insert additional analogies here...

M.C. Hammer's "U Can't Touch This"
The song came out in 1990. I was 8 years old. I, along with all of my peers, though it was the total hotness. Imagine trying to give this song to an 8 year old from today, and presenting it as "new". He would probably shoot you in the face while blasting his... whatever the devil it is that today's kids listen to. Personally, I can look back at it and listen to it with a smile on my face... but I also understand that it sounds terribly dated... but that doesn't detract, at all, from what kind of feelings it evokes, etc.

Bubble-Gum Pop (Boy Bands, etc.)
This was only in the last decade, and already see at how we're looking back at this time period.

Recent Music
As much as I love some of the current music I love, I know for a fact that it's going to sound horribly dated in ten years, and very little of it will stand the test of time. Insert talk here about classic albums, music that's ahead of its time, etc.

TriforceCaptre · Post by **TriforceCaptre** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:02 pm

I'm not as much of a music buff as most people here so I can't add much to the table.

I can say however that back when the Boo arc was coming out in America I would buy the DVD's/VHS whatever (depending on how much cash I had on me) and would watch them with my nephews, and no one would say anything about the music. Fast forward a few years to me picking up the Season One "brick" and watching it with one of the same nephews (who by this time was 10 or 11) this time with the original music turned on (still the dub though because he wouldn't be able to follow the sub-titles) and on a couple of occasions hearing him say out loud, "that music/song is pretty cool".

Keeping in mind that this nephew of mine like's Kid Rock, HIM, and most of all, Country music. So I really have no idea how or why he enjoyed the original music, he just kind of...did?

As for myself, I remember being kind of into a few pieces of music from the dub. But I overall enjoy the original music much more. I wouldn't shrivel up and die if I heard faulconer's music now, but I wouldn't be tapping my toes with a sense of nostalgia either.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:25 pm

I love dragonball's score; I would have hated it had they changed it. However, for some strange reason, I can't say the same of it's sequel, Z. Maybe it's the audio quality on the DVDs, but I just really don't like it in DBZ. I don't like the dub music all that much, either. Maybe I'm a picky guy. The dub music by Nathan Johnson I don't like, and Faulconer's is kindof dated.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:35 pm

I can honestly say that I never liked Falcouner's score of the show. It never felt right for me, and this is before I ever heard of the Japanese score. The Super Saiyan 3 theme made me want to throw my TV out the window. So I would say that the Falcouner score now would be "dated". Oddly enough, whenever I watched the dub of Dragonball, I was never annoyed by the music. The fact that it was an old show with old music really didn't bother me at all.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:07 pm

I think people say it's dated because they hear Funi's bad attempt and just throwing the Japanese audio in the DVDs. Everything is so quiet when I turn it to Japanese so they really arn't getting the right experience.

Son Wukong · Post by **Son Wukong** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:23 pm

Well I always use the word nostalgic when describing the feelings I'm having when listening to Romantikku Ageru Yo even though I came in contact with it relatively a short while ago. So in that sense maybe it is dated. But it doesn't make it any less better in my opinion. It's not like the new music that came with the redubbing of the Ultimate Uncut edition was that much of an invigoration. It's a a helluva better than what Funimation will ever bring out.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:17 pm

There are people that like classical music. I know someone who's into Frank Sinatra, another who is the same age as me and is big into the Sixties popCulture stuff... (or at least was a few years ago...). I like the music to the 80's tmnt... and Faulconer's DBZ comes from the same era as boybands. So anyone who argues datedness as a problem with music is just being bitchy. Sorry to those that say as much, but identifying the origin of music, either spacially or temporally, says nothing about its quality. Dragonball was based on a Chinese legend--there are a lot of imperial Chinese aspects to the music, and the "dated" style of the instruments (synthetic or whatever) used strikes me as completely intentional to get across the "epic adventure of classic proportions that is still fun" feel.
(Imagine my reaction when I heard a Peaking Opera and was wondering if maybe a Tenkaichi Budokai match was about to start.

).

Once Raditz arrives, though, that entire mood shifts. Arguably, it could have something to do with Imperial Japanese Racial Superiority, and the whole Imperial China thing fell apart, the cultural Revolution took hold, and Japan invaded there in the early twentieth century... I suppose it might be argued that, in that sense, DBZ still reflects the Chinese Adventure aspect (though I won't claim Toriyama was thinking that deeply into it). But when we get to Piccolo's theme, Chala, and all of that stuff... the origin reflected in the music gets merky (Upa's theme comes to mind, too... also, compare the Red Ribbon Army's marches).
So I think that by DBZ, the world has pretty much evolved beyond a gag version of a cultural fairytale land into a different kind of universe entirely, so we have to wonder how the music keeps up with that... and I really have no idea, based on the little of the original music for the Z-era that I've heard (

). From what I've heard, though, it seems like the technique for creating the in-show music stayed pretty much the same, while the music itself changed to fit the story--I guess it could be argued that such might give off the feeling of "dated"ness, but I wouldn't expect the entire sound of the show to just up and change because the plot and characters require new styles of music--it'd more realistically be a gradual thing, punctuated with... hmm... the insert songs that we wound up getting (that the dub doesn't tend to include?). "Spirit Vs. Spirit" seems to be an example of the sort of thing the dub should have tried to shoot for if it wanted to "modernize" the bgm--if it's too time-specific, grow out of it instead of grabbing something totally out of place and pretend it spells mass appeal (though, I guess somehow it did if it's gotten so much support...).

So, egh, I don't think "datedness" has anything to do with the quality of the music. I think "dated" is when people can't understand that they're experiencing a preference for their culture's version of something from another culture (which in turn is a take on stuff based in another culture). Faulconer's music is what I'd call "Americanized". Same goes for Menza's. (there are some exceptions in there where the Faulconer score actually sounds less Americanized without bastardizing the source style; Heroic Trunks, the "Evil Majin" type thing (flutes and strings and stuff?), Etc... some of this sort of stuff appears in the Cell/Androids soundtrack as well ("16 rips off Cell's Tail" (wasn't that originally Dende's theme?) comes to mind).).

Egh... Hmm. I know that in trying to come up with background music for games, I didn't really pay attention to how the music related to any cultural elements (whereas Streetfighter2 clearly tries to make each character's theme reflect his/her place of origin), except for maybe four things altogether (And two of those are only after a semester of 'World Music'). And I started that mostly in 2001, when I already knew there'd be diversity in my characters... But even now I'd suggest I'm probably still newbish. I found myself unwilling to leave the morganstudios homepage for quite a while with that sample playlist in the background, and I noticed a couple of non-DBZ related samples on Faulconer's website sounded researched... so what happened? None of that sounds "dated".

I wonder, if the dub had, instead of requesting original music, had the original music re-recorded using the exact same score, but new equipment... what would the reaction have been?

I'm rambling and completely losing my points. So I'll stop now.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:10 pm

Preface: I will be using the term good music in the following post. Good music is good regardless of popularity, enjoyment, style, or timeframe. A song can be proven as good or bad (or shades in between) in the same way a piece of literature can. Assuming that, I will continue - I don't want this to dissolve into 'what is good music'.

'Dated' is an accurate term for any piece of music that is in a style that has not widely been used outside of a specific timeframe. This is not to say that the style isn't used after that time, but that it simply is not used in wide enough usage for it to be considered a current fashion.

For example, pop, rock, and country music have been in fashion for decades, since their inception. While other music styles, like 'hair metal' or minstrel music, have seen less and less use.

The term 'dated' is used now because many musical styles can more easily be defined by when they were in fashion, as opposed to descriptions of the style itself. For example, 'early '90s rap' is difficult to describe concisely - so it is described by it's timeframe of popularity.

While this is a legitimate descriptor, it isn't the most important one. Any musical style can have 'good' music, and (obviously) anyone can enjoy any type of music, regardless if it is a current trend or not.

More pointedly, the criticism that a song is 'dated' is a poor criticism indeed. Not being in fashion has nothing to do with it being good or not. 'Classical music' is dated, but is in many cases seen as good music despite contemporary composers receiving little popularity.

I suspect that those complaining that the music is dated simply don't like the style. I further suspect that they are using the term 'dated' without understanding what it means.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:16 am

I used to remember people saying that Goku going SSJ for the first time in the japanese version sounded like a 50's monster movie. Even though it may sound dated to the hip hop boy band dubbies, it fit perfectly since Goku was literally turning to a monster.

I'm beginning to think the current trend in cartoon BGM nowadays is to sound as generic and non memorable as possible. Good cartoon BGM (like old school TMNT) can probably be considered dated.

I'm still disappointed that we don't have the obligatory wind sound on any of the japanese DBZ cds since it's awesomeness can never be dated.

"Whoooooooooo........ Whoooooooo"

Post by **Herms** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:26 am

Castor Troy wrote:I'm still disappointed that we don't have the obligatory wind sound on any of the japanese DBZ cds since it's awesomeness can never be dated.

"Whoooooooooo........ Whoooooooo"

There needs to be some sort of sound-effects CD, if there isn't already. Who wouldn't want to be able to listen to the crunchy walking noise, or that sound senzu always make when someone catches them? It'd be great.

As for the topic: I guess my retort would be that there's a difference between being old and being dated. You can tell that Dragon Ball's music wasn't made today, but it still perfectly fits the show and really gets the mood of each scene across. Making it more modern wouldn't improve it in any real way, as has been repeatedly demonstrated.

kenisu3000 · Post by **kenisu3000** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:30 am

This whole topic is a very interesting point to bring up. I know that even though I have an undying love for the Japanese score, it often sounds terribly, terribly dated. Some of the different vibes I get from it are:

50's horror flicks ("Garlic Jr. Summons Up The Dead Zone" from Movie 1. YES, it's a great song overall, but you have to admit, they overuse it in the episodes, and that shrieking flute or whatever the hell that thing is just SCREAMS B-movie)

60's/70's TV series such as The Brady Bunch and Green Acres (the latter half of "Revenge Is Stimulating" from Movie 11 and the last 35 seconds of "The New Planet Vegeta" from Movie 8)

Corny old 70's action series like... uh, I dunno, Charlie's Angels? (just listen to that weird drum-thing in "Goku Vs. Yamcha" from the first DragonBall movie, and the funny guitar-plucking from seconds 00:39 - 00:42 of "Race To Devil's Hand" from "Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle"!)

But what gives the Japanese score such appeal for me that I can overlook these quirks is how much of an instant classic it is. Back around 1987 (when I was 5), I was obsessed with the old Disney cartoon series Ducktales, and I don't know if you guys have ever noticed (I mean, shame on you if you've never seen Ducktales), but the instrumental score for that show was really quite good. They used a combination of synth and a small orchestra, and also implemented the concept of repeating pieces throughout the episodes. There were a couple of recurring themes that were used during the high-tension scenes which, as a kid, really got my blood pumping and made the scene for me. Back then, I used to record episodes onto VHS, and then play back the scenes that featured these awesome bits of music OVER AND OVER (I probably drove my parents nuts), because I had fallen in love with these short instrumentals.
And then I start watching the original DragonBall with its "instant classic" music that reminds me *so much* of the wonderful cartoons I used to watch during the 80's that the whole experience actually felt like I had discovered something from my childhood. I don't know how better to describe it - it honestly felt like, even though I had never even seen so much as the dub of DragonBall Anything until 1999, it had been a part of my days as a young boy; and so much of that was because of the music.

One thing I noticed in the change of styles between DB and DBZ is that the "corny 70's action series" concept became much more prevalent, and in some (rare) cases the original series even sounds slightly *more* recent than DBZ. I guess that just has to do with the series itself turning into a more action-oriented show, and so Shunsuke Kikuchi took the initiative of giving the score a "Super Sentai" flavor.

All in all, since I'm always so self-conscious of the music I listen to and how critically others view it, I have the awful fault of introducing the score of DragonBall/Z to my friends as admittedly dated-sounding. I *really* need to stop that. It gives them the wrong impression, and first impressions are everything - it's just that I'm a social disaster, and tend to be overly apologetic about *everything* that makes me me. That's kind of why I'm so forgiving of DragonBall GT - it makes up for the only thing the previous two series lacked in the music department: that is, a fresh feel, and I don't think it has any overt faults, other than being slightly less memorable than Kikuchi's themes.

Damn it, I went and typed up another friggin' novel.

Herms wrote:There needs to be some sort of sound-effects CD, if there isn't already. Who wouldn't want to be able to listen to the crunchy walking noise, or that sound senzu always make when someone catches them? It'd be great.

Let's not forget the whoooo-m noise that Julian describes in podcast episode 15 as sounding like somebody bending and hitting a saw. Man, it took me forever to realize what sound he was talking about, but then it hit me that he was referring to the one that's often followed by the heavy-hitting "BA-DA!" mechanical-clang sort of noise whenever there's a dramatic visual shot. The best instance of this I can think of is at the end of DragonBall when Goku beats the crap out of Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai and then fires a massive Kamehameha at him. Everything is dead silent, then Goku spin-flips through the air and lands, and the camera slowly pulls back to show a huge pit of dirt (cue the saw noise) and then we get a slowly panning shot of Piccolo's unconscious body with his mouth hanging open (cue the "BA-DA"!"). I *love* that scene and the effect the SFX create there.

But this is supposed to be a topic about the music, what the crap am I doing?

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:09 am

With Mr. Faulconer's music, it depends for me. I never cared for his theme (would've preferred they did Rock the Dragon with new scenes a la Sailor Moon S). But music like the Vegeta music and some others from seasons 4-onward I liked. And I absolutely love Ginyu Transformation everytime it's used. Didn't really care for GT, but thought Mr. Menza's music was ok at times in the movies.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:40 am

Super Sonic wrote:With Mr. Faulconer's music, it depends for me. I never cared for his theme (would've preferred they did Rock the Dragon with new scenes a la Sailor Moon S). But music like the Vegeta music and some others from seasons 4-onward I liked. And I absolutely love Ginyu Transformation everytime it's used. Didn't really care for GT, but thought Mr. Menza's music was ok at times in the movies.

I'm not really asking one way or the other if anyone "likes" any particular BGM.

desirecampbell wrote:More pointedly, the criticism that a song is 'dated' is a poor criticism indeed. Not being in fashion has nothing to do with it being good or not. 'Classical music' is dated, but is in many cases seen as good music despite contemporary composers receiving little popularity.

I suspect that those complaining that the music is dated simply don't like the style. I further suspect that they are using the term 'dated' without understanding what it means.

I think this is really where we're getting at. When these types of fans criticize the music as being "dated" and that's why they don't like it, I don't think that's an honest/accurate representation of their feelings. More often than not, it's probably a what-you-were-exposed-to-first thing... these people know Bruce Faulconer's music as "the" score to the series, and anything different (especially the original Japanese score) is not what they want to hear, and is therefore "bad". While many will flat-out say that, others will say it's "dated" as the reason they won't listen to it.

But I find that hilarious, because the show itself is just as dated as the music! It's not like the music is from 1989 and the show is somehow from 1999. This, again, ties in to my comments about FUNimation's marketing being genius, because it continues to almost flat-out prove all of my thoughts. By constantly re-presenting it as a new show, they're able to overcome the "dated" stigma with at least their own, internal productions.

I really wonder if we never had a situation where there was a changed musical score if these types of fans would even bother to be complaining about it and be requesting a more recent/updated score. Know what I mean?

I just find it a hilarious & hypocritical accusation, more often than not without any sort of logical thought process behind it, I guess.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:53 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I really wonder if we never had a situation where there was a changed musical score if these types of fans would even bother to be complaining about it and be requesting a more recent/updated score. Know what I mean?
I just find it a hilarious & hypocritical accusation, more often than not without any sort of logical thought process behind it, I guess.

Exactly. The criticism of 'dated' fails under even the slightest inspection. The Funi dub music is also dated, and the only reason that score is deemed acceptable by these fans is because it's what they were introduced to initially. They assume it's appropriate music because they haven't taken any time to think about it.

But this isn't a problem based with anime fans, it's something the general populace has absorbed. People just don't examine the artforms they view. As a good, recent example, The Transformers movie. There are no redeeming qualities to it, yet there are (apparently) millions of people who would swear that the CGI was top-notch, the script was coherent and funny, the action was well choreographed, etc - when in actuality, these parts were all done badly and you can show how they were done badly. When someone says 'the action was great' they have absolutely no way of backing it up. Which is exactly the same as these 'dated' music critics.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:11 pm

desirecampbell wrote:People just don't examine the artforms they view.

Because there's no need. If it entertains, the art has served its purpose. The only people who examine are either stuffed-shirt elitists who can't understand how people can possibly be having fun with something their mighty intellect has deemed inferior (re: Guitar Hero, summer action movies, Dragonball itself) or college students hoping to score extra points on their papers by invoking whichever philosophical school their professor belongs to.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:19 pm

I completely agree with Rocketman. It's true; entertainment is just entertainment. It's not world politics or anything important. Unless it's actually *harmful* in some way or something (which there are certain things I would label as such), if you enjoy something and find fun or value in it, why should you have to give a damn whether other people "approve" of it or not? One shouldn't HAVE to justify liking something if it's just for kicks. That goes for music, art, movies, games, DVD releases... whatever.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:30 pm

Don't get me wrong; it's not much of a matter of being able to like something. It's all about the asinine reasons for not liking something.

I don't give a rat's ass if anyone actually likes FUNimation's score well far above the Japanese score. It's their opinion, they're allowed to hold that opinion, and there's nothing I really feel like doing to change their mind.

However, to say that the score is dated is the one reason they don't like it? Hello? Parts of FUNimation's score are now 10 years old...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:36 pm

VegettoEX wrote: However, to say that the score is dated is the one reason they don't like it? Hello? Parts of FUNimation's score are now 10 years old...

I suppose so. I guess once you ARE pressured to come up with "reasons," they can sometimes get pretty nonsensical.

Vegeta Jr · Post by **Vegeta Jr** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:43 pm

I have never heard anyone's reason to dislike the Japanese music is that it is dated, and to be honest i can't really see that being a valid reason, look at classic music that has a huge following and dates back hundreds of years.

I guess some people have just been brain washed with modern rock and expect a guitar solo in everything they hear.

I myself actually really like Faulconers music, definately gives it that action feel but the Japanese music delves deeper and sets up suspension so much better and portrays more emotion.

Kanzenshuu

"It's Dated"... Retort?

"It's Dated"... Retort?

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