Gotenks(Post-Rosat)>>Goku and Vegeta

[OWmyDragonBallz]

So worst case, SSJ Gotenks was stronger than Fat boo after ROSAT training but it didn’t matter by that time because Super Boo was already born.

Unlikely. There is nothing suggesting SS Gotenks was enough for the task, specially when he needed SS3 to start fighting Super Boo on equal terms. Pretty sure this notion was properly conveyed by Toriyama by subverting the expectations until Gotenks finally revealed something worth the wait.

So Goku sucks at his job then and had no clue how weak fusion was. Got it.
Or we can just admit that Goku scaled the boys SSJ forms for a reason. Because he thinks SSJ Gotenks will be more than enough for Fat boo after two days of training.
The gamble wasn’t referring to their power. It was referring to experience.

[Hugo Boss]

The two days of training were not even supposed to be used to get stronger, Goku was only referring to perfecting the technique. Anyway, Goku was guessing how strong they would get when fusing, but he didn’t have background knowledge to state anything concrete.

Most of Boo arc has similar dynamic, when characters assume someone is impressive and it turning up differently, even the most reliable ones like Piccolo, Vegeta etc. Same way in the opposite. This is usually overlooked when people crop panels instead of reading the content in its whole.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

The two days of training were not even supposed to be used to get stronger, Goku was only referring to perfecting the technique. Anyway, Goku was guessing how strong they would get when fusing, but he didn’t have background knowledge to state anything concrete.

Most of Boo arc has similar dynamic, when characters assume someone is impressive and it turning up differently, even the most reliable ones like Piccolo, Vegeta etc. Same way in the opposite. This is usually overlooked when people crop panels instead of reading the content in its whole.

Goku doesn’t say ”they can beat him” and then turn around and say he’s unsure. That’s not what was happening. He said, once the boys master fusion there’s no way they can lose. He never went back on his statement that SSJ Gotenks would be enough.
The anime spun it a little and Piccolo implies that they need to finish their second day of training to be ready. But either way, SSJ Gotenks is in the ballpark of SSJ3 and Fat boo.
Goku wasn’t planning on the ROSAT. Piccolo only did when Super boo was born. He never did with Fat boo.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku doesn’t say ”they can beat him” and then turn around and say he’s unsure. That’s not what was happening. He said, once the boys master fusion there’s no way they can lose. He never went back on his statement that SSJ Gotenks would be enough.

The anime spun it a little and Piccolo implies that they need to finish their second day of training to be ready. But either way, SSJ Gotenks is in the ballpark of SSJ3 and Fat boo.

Goku wasn’t planning on the ROSAT. Piccolo only did when Super boo was born. He never did with Fat boo.

I’m not disputing that Goku didn’t have confidence in SS Gotenks. I’m just saying he maybe exaggerated it a little bit, since Gotenks doesn’t actually prove he can do anything to Majin Boo until he goes SS3, hence why it’s said he surpassed Vegeta after his training in the RoSaT.

On the other hand, if one assumes Goku is correct and SS Gotenks has a shot against Fat Boo, then Super Boo got about 8 times stronger despite only assimilating his other half back, or perhaps SS3 only makes Gotenks twice as strong as his SS form. I find both assumptions way harder to believe then simply accepting that Gotenks’ reputation ended up being a huge dead-end mostly played for a joke in Toriyama’s fashion.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Most of Boo arc has similar dynamic, when characters assume someone is impressive and it turning up differently, even the most reliable ones like Piccolo, Vegeta etc. Same way in the opposite. This is usually overlooked when people crop panels instead of reading the content in its whole.

Interesting. Can you expand on that? Vegeta was never very reliable. Piccolo was fooled in the Rosat for the sake of the joke. Kaioshin and Babidi made fools of themselves, but I felt like that was specific to his characters.

Goku? Well, I guess he underestimated Kid Boo. That was a massive blunder on his part.

The only problem here is that there isn't really any reason to think Goku was wrong. A 10x difference is pretty standard in the series.

[p-hyvo]

This would just be incoherent with many other things, like Goku looking stronger than Goten during "yo son Goku and his friends return" , or with BoG's movie writer saying that no one ever surpassed SSJ3 (Goku) and that they came up with SSJG on purpose to do that.

And obviously , there's even Toriyama saying that he couldn't imagine a stronger Goku than the Buu saga one , infact in the 4 years between Buu and BoG Goku hardly trained if didn't at all ( in ysgshfr, Goku himself said he wasn't trainig and was getting rusty, and in BoG Goku just went back to training when Beerus showed up), so consequently fullpower Goku > Gohan > Gotenks

[TobyS]

This would just be incoherent with many other things, like Goku looking stronger than Goten during "yo son Goku and his friends return" , or with BoG's movie writer saying that no one ever surpassed SSJ3 (Goku) and that they came up with SSJG on purpose to do that.

And obviously , there's even Toriyama saying that he couldn't imagine a stronger Goku than the Buu saga one , infact in the 4 years between Buu and BoG Goku hardly trained if didn't at all ( in ysgshfr, Goku himself said he wasn't trainig and was getting rusty, and in BoG Goku just went back to training when Beerus showed up), so consequently fullpower Goku > Gohan > Gotenks

The og bog movie writer can say what he wants put it's moot because toriyama came and rewrote everything. Goku has to learn an entire second source of extra better ki to explicitly surpass gotenks and gohan.

Yo son goku is dubiously canon now, there's two versions at that, and only some versions of super reference vegetas brother and not by name.

If Toriyama did say not being able to imagine a stronger Goku Which I'd like a source for, it's only a goku statement not relative to the others.

[p-hyvo]

This would just be incoherent with many other things, like Goku looking stronger than Goten during "yo son Goku and his friends return" , or with BoG's movie writer saying that no one ever surpassed SSJ3 (Goku) and that they came up with SSJG on purpose to do that.

And obviously , there's even Toriyama saying that he couldn't imagine a stronger Goku than the Buu saga one , infact in the 4 years between Buu and BoG Goku hardly trained if didn't at all ( in ysgshfr, Goku himself said he wasn't trainig and was getting rusty, and in BoG Goku just went back to training when Beerus showed up), so consequently fullpower Goku > Gohan > Gotenks

The og bog movie writer can say what he wants put it's moot because toriyama came and rewrote everything. Goku has to learn an entire second source of extra better ki to explicitly surpass gotenks and gohan.

Yo son goku is dubiously canon now, there's two versions at that, and only some versions of super reference vegetas brother and not by name.

If Toriyama did say not being able to imagine a stronger Goku Which I'd like a source for, it's only a goku statement not relative to the others.

The BoG writer literally worked with Toriyama lmao. What you're saying makes no sense, since Toriyama never changed that thing to begin with. He coherently said multiple times that Goku is the strongest in his book and, Aven in the DBS anime, Vegeta said that after beating Buu Goku became the undisputed number 1. And it's just "after", not "years after".Goku barely trained in the 4 years between Buu and BoG, he literally just restarted doing it when Beerus came up.

Yo son Goku is canon, Toriyama worked on it with naho and it is even quoted in BoG directly

If he says that he couldn't imagine a stronger Goku that the Buu saga one and he says that Goku is the strongest, then we're back to what I said previously . Saying that implies that Goku>everyone else at his peak.
The statement can be found here on the site, it's in the super history book
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
It's like the last question

[TobyS]

This would just be incoherent with many other things, like Goku looking stronger than Goten during "yo son Goku and his friends return" , or with BoG's movie writer saying that no one ever surpassed SSJ3 (Goku) and that they came up with SSJG on purpose to do that.

And obviously , there's even Toriyama saying that he couldn't imagine a stronger Goku than the Buu saga one , infact in the 4 years between Buu and BoG Goku hardly trained if didn't at all ( in ysgshfr, Goku himself said he wasn't trainig and was getting rusty, and in BoG Goku just went back to training when Beerus showed up), so consequently fullpower Goku > Gohan > Gotenks

The og bog movie writer can say what he wants put it's moot because toriyama came and rewrote everything. Goku has to learn an entire second source of extra better ki to explicitly surpass gotenks and gohan.

Yo son goku is dubiously canon now, there's two versions at that, and only some versions of super reference vegetas brother and not by name.

If Toriyama did say not being able to imagine a stronger Goku Which I'd like a source for, it's only a goku statement not relative to the others.

The BoG writer literally worked with Toriyama lmao. What you're saying makes no sense, since Toriyama never changed that thing to begin with. He coherently said multiple times that Goku is the strongest in his book and, Aven in the DBS anime, Vegeta said that after beating Buu Goku became the undisputed number 1. And it's just "after", not "years after".Goku barely trained in the 4 years between Buu and BoG, he literally just restarted doing it when Beerus came up.

Yo son Goku is canon, Toriyama worked on it with naho and it is even quoted in BoG directly

If he says that he couldn't imagine a stronger Goku that the Buu saga one and he says that Goku is the strongest, then we're back to what I said previously . Saying that implies that Goku>everyone else at his peak.
The statement can be found here on the site, it's in the super history book
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
It's like the last question

Why lie lmao.

“Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was.

It doesn't say anything about Gokus strength relative to the Boos or his own allies, just that he can't think of stronger enemies or how to power up Goku more.

I don't care about the original writer of the scrapped script to BOG having incorrect ideas about Goku being the strongest like every moron at Toei.

Toriyama rewrote the entire script and wrote nothing saying Goku was now stronger, when he wasn't in the Boo arc.

[Hugo Boss]

Most of Boo arc has similar dynamic, when characters assume someone is impressive and it turning up differently, even the most reliable ones like Piccolo, Vegeta etc. Same way in the opposite. This is usually overlooked when people crop panels instead of reading the content in its whole.

Interesting. Can you expand on that? Vegeta was never very reliable. Piccolo was fooled in the Rosat for the sake of the joke. Kaioshin and Babidi made fools of themselves, but I felt like that was specific to his characters.

Goku? Well, I guess he underestimated Kid Boo. That was a massive blunder on his part.

The only problem here is that there isn't really any reason to think Goku was wrong. A 10x difference is pretty standard in the series.

Vegeta was introduced as a main antagonist, so his inputs are generally on point, in contrast to the dumb nature of Nappa. He keeps that composure until his opponents start to get the advantage over him. So, there is that point that he stops being reliable, but that doesn’t mean he’s like that all the time.

But what I’m really referring to in this conversation is one of the plot points of Boo arc. Toriyama challenges the notion that his characters have all the answers they think they do, specially Goku. He kept under devaluing the unpredictability of a fight against Boo and the implications of not taking him seriously, until it was shown otherwise that he should give him his very best response.

Putting his hopes on a hypothetical Super Saiyan fusion of the kids is just an example of Goku’s mistakes. It was a shot in the dark. When the push came to shove Gotenks wasn’t able to defeat Super Boo even as a SS3, so it’s really hard to imagine that SS Gotenks would do anything to Fat Boo.

[p-hyvo]

The og bog movie writer can say what he wants put it's moot because toriyama came and rewrote everything. Goku has to learn an entire second source of extra better ki to explicitly surpass gotenks and gohan.

Yo son goku is dubiously canon now, there's two versions at that, and only some versions of super reference vegetas brother and not by name.

If Toriyama did say not being able to imagine a stronger Goku Which I'd like a source for, it's only a goku statement not relative to the others.

The BoG writer literally worked with Toriyama lmao. What you're saying makes no sense, since Toriyama never changed that thing to begin with. He coherently said multiple times that Goku is the strongest in his book and, Aven in the DBS anime, Vegeta said that after beating Buu Goku became the undisputed number 1. And it's just "after", not "years after".Goku barely trained in the 4 years between Buu and BoG, he literally just restarted doing it when Beerus came up.

Yo son Goku is canon, Toriyama worked on it with naho and it is even quoted in BoG directly

If he says that he couldn't imagine a stronger Goku that the Buu saga one and he says that Goku is the strongest, then we're back to what I said previously . Saying that implies that Goku>everyone else at his peak.
The statement can be found here on the site, it's in the super history book
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
It's like the last question

Why lie lmao.

“Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was.

It doesn't say anything about Gokus strength relative to the Boos or his own allies, just that he can't think of stronger enemies or how to power up Goku more.

I don't care about the original writer of the scrapped script to BOG having incorrect ideas about Goku being the strongest like every moron at Toei.

Toriyama rewrote the entire script and wrote nothing saying Goku was now stronger, when he wasn't in the Boo arc.

I can only say nice selective bias bro.
Go on, ignore a multitude of sources just because they don't confirm your pre-existent idea.
Ignore guides, ignore writers, ignore even Toriyama himself just because he doesn't say what you're thinking. In his idea SSJ3 Goku was the strongest since back then, no need to tell it to the audience when he got the best feats against Beerus anyway apart from rage Vegeta.

[TobyS]

Lol you are full of it, no source matters except toriyama and to a lesser extent toyo,

I quoted the toriyama part of the interview you mentioned and it didn't say what you claimed it said whatsoever.

We don't even see ss3 gotenks and gohans fight with beerus in the manga. In the anime and movie, which I don't care about, they've already slacked, gohans on his way down to his rof power and don't seem to be ultimate, and are not using ss3.

He was testing and humouring Goku on kaios planet and going somewhat easy, whereas the others he was just putting down their attempt to throw him out of the party when he was already furious about the loss of pudding so it's literally incomparable even in the anime.

Vegetas feats are garbage too, when he does a combo and punts beerus in the air we see him sigh from boredom and disappointment

[Hugo Boss]

We don't even see ss3 gotenks and gohans fight with beerus in the manga. In the anime and movie, which I don't care about, they've already slacked, gohans on his way down to his rof power and don't seem to be ultimate, and are not using ss3.

Actually, there is nothing in the movie, nor in its anime or manga adaptations, suggesting they were weaker than when they fought Majin Boo. Even Toriyama said he set the story’s time frame like that, because everyone was at their strongest.

By the way, Beerus does fight SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in the manga’s chapter #3. There is a scene in which Beerus disciplines SS3 Gotenks.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Dismissing the movie for the manga isn't right imo. The manga is pretty much a recap of the movie.

Anyway I don't think it even needs to be mentioned that Gohan is rusty since he's at his weakest a while after, but the boys should be as strong as aways. The manga just confirmed they're very into training. The only thing that ever suggests the boys are rusty is the Yo! Son Goku OVA. Even the manga special skips the "rusty" part.

Putting his hopes on a hypothetical Super Saiyan fusion of the kids is just an example of Goku’s mistakes. It was a shot in the dark. When the push came to shove Gotenks wasn’t able to defeat Super Boo even as a SS3, so it’s really hard to imagine that SS Gotenks would do anything to Fat Boo.

But then that's escaping the power discussion entirely. Gotenks failed to defeat Super Boo (Who's worlds above Fat Boo) because he's incompetent.

Fusion might have been a shot in the dark before anyone tested it, but time has proven it's an overpowered move. The cast's reactions to Gotenks' power + his ability to unlock SSJ3 in a couple weeks, even if they don't prove anything specific, show fusion is not something to sneeze at.

[Hugo Boss]

Anyway I don't think it even needs to be mentioned that Gohan is rusty since he's at his weakest a while after, but the boys should be as strong as aways. The manga just confirmed they're very into training. The only thing that ever suggests the boys are rusty is the Yo! Son Goku OVA. Even the manga special skips the "rusty" part.

The plot point of Gohan being rusty was only thought when Toriyama was writing RoF. By the time he finished writing BoG, he hadn’t thought about future developments.

In BoG, Gohan could still use his ultimate form, in contrast to RoF, when he couldn’t. So, I don’t see any reason to assume he lost the strength he had against Boo when this wasn’t stated or implied in the movie nor in any of its adaptations.

Gotenks failed to defeat Super Boo (Who's worlds above Fat Boo) because he's incompetent.

Fusion might have been a shot in the dark before anyone tested it, but time has proven it's an overpowered move. The cast's reactions to Gotenks' power + his ability to unlock SSJ3 in a couple weeks, even if they don't prove anything specific, show fusion is not something to sneeze at.

Despite that, the hype surrounding Gotenks truly demanded evidence, since he was a work-in-progress.

People only assume Super Boo has like 10 times the strength of Fat Boo because of trying to fit SS Gotenks above Fat Boo, when this goes against the logic of Boo’s absorptions. It’s similar to suggesting that, after the split, Skinny Boo got 9/10 the strength of Super Boo, while Fat Boo only kept 1/10.

Whenever Boo’s forms don’t work according to expected, the narrative provides explanations, which doesn’t happen in this case. The first Fat Boo powered-up, then split, then both halves reunited and got back the strength of the powered-up Fat Boo, only now with a body suited for battle. And that’s just about as far as SS3 Gotenks went. The promised warrior ended up being Ultimate Gohan.

[dragon boss z]

This would just be incoherent with many other things, like Goku looking stronger than Goten during "yo son Goku and his friends return" , or with BoG's movie writer saying that no one ever surpassed SSJ3 (Goku) and that they came up with SSJG on purpose to do that.

And obviously , there's even Toriyama saying that he couldn't imagine a stronger Goku than the Buu saga one , infact in the 4 years between Buu and BoG Goku hardly trained if didn't at all ( in ysgshfr, Goku himself said he wasn't trainig and was getting rusty, and in BoG Goku just went back to training when Beerus showed up), so consequently fullpower Goku > Gohan > Gotenks

Do you have these scans/sources?