Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Daima" TV series premiering October 2024, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri Nov 15, 2024 5:04 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 4:59 pm Goku literally compared Glorio to Shin and had no problem fighting him in base with one arm.

It's pretty clear base Goku is stronger than Shin which contradicts what BoG said.
It's clear base Goku Mini is stronger than Shin Mini.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Nov 15, 2024 5:55 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 4:59 pm Goku literally compared Glorio to Shin and had no problem fighting him in base with one arm.

It's pretty clear base Goku is stronger than Shin which contradicts what BoG said.
Except Shin told Goku to get serious to push Glorio to be serious, after the one arm bout.
Goku hit Glorio, apparently did no damage and was disarmed later.

Finally Goku needs to turn SSJ for Glorio's final attack.

Also even without BoG, when did a Base Saiyan ever did anything to prove them better Freeza?
The whole point of the Android/Cell arc was to improve SSJ, if their Base grew to such a silly level it would turn the whole storyline void.
Vegeta talking shit isn't a basis to disregard a whole arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:12 pm

LightBing wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 5:55 pm Except Shin told Goku to get serious to push Glorio to be serious, after the one arm bout.
Goku hit Glorio, apparently did no damage and was disarmed later.

Finally Goku needs to turn SSJ for Glorio's final attack.

Also even without BoG, when did a Base Saiyan ever did anything to prove them better Freeza?
The whole point of the Android/Cell arc was to improve SSJ, if their Base grew to such a silly level it would turn the whole storyline void.
Vegeta talking shit isn't a basis to disregard a whole arc.
The problem with this is that Goku says Glorio was better than what he thought so that means the power Glorio displayed on their fist fight was already stronger than Shin and base Goku had no issue fighting that.

The lighting attack could have a big amp.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:29 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:12 pm
LightBing wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 5:55 pm Except Shin told Goku to get serious to push Glorio to be serious, after the one arm bout.
Goku hit Glorio, apparently did no damage and was disarmed later.

Finally Goku needs to turn SSJ for Glorio's final attack.

Also even without BoG, when did a Base Saiyan ever did anything to prove them better Freeza?
The whole point of the Android/Cell arc was to improve SSJ, if their Base grew to such a silly level it would turn the whole storyline void.
Vegeta talking shit isn't a basis to disregard a whole arc.
The problem with this is that Goku says Glorio was better than what he thought so that means the power Glorio displayed on their fist fight was already stronger than Shin and base Goku had no issue fighting that.

The lighting attack could have a big amp.
I mean he also said Glorio wouldn't be able to handle the Minotaur. Are the soldiers he fought in the previous episode SSJ tier because Goku had to use it?
Is Panzy above Base Goku because she threw toilet paper twice and he couldn't react?

We can't just look at things in isolation.

It's much more logical that Goku better ascertained Glorio's power even while the latter was holding back. The same way he evaluated his power initially even if all he did was kick a fish for a few seconds, likely not close to full power.
It's common place for this type of estimations to occur.

Unless you think most of the Demon Realm can finger flick Freeza, even random animals. Yet nobody could gather the Dragon Balls and they even have fusion pills.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:36 pm

If the wish didn't make them weaker, then what was the point of that? make them more agile? what a waste of a good wish, then.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:44 pm

I see no reason to overcomplicate things in a storytelling as forward as Daima.

Goku thought he could handle Glorio with a single arm, not fighting seriously. He also thought that he was stronger than Shin before seeing his full power. It's two different scenes, but it's a very 1+1 equation, Goku would also think he can handle Shin with a single arm.

Now whether you think that contradicts BoG is an entirely different thing as you can argue we don't know how much weaker then "mini" versions are.

But like...just by applying logic, there is no reason for Shin to grow weaker than Goku, exponientally speaking. So that should mean adult base Goku is still above adult Shin. And we all know what adult Shin said about Frieza.
LightBing wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:29 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:12 pm
LightBing wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 5:55 pm Except Shin told Goku to get serious to push Glorio to be serious, after the one arm bout.
Goku hit Glorio, apparently did no damage and was disarmed later.

Finally Goku needs to turn SSJ for Glorio's final attack.

Also even without BoG, when did a Base Saiyan ever did anything to prove them better Freeza?
The whole point of the Android/Cell arc was to improve SSJ, if their Base grew to such a silly level it would turn the whole storyline void.
Vegeta talking shit isn't a basis to disregard a whole arc.
The problem with this is that Goku says Glorio was better than what he thought so that means the power Glorio displayed on their fist fight was already stronger than Shin and base Goku had no issue fighting that.

The lighting attack could have a big amp.
I mean he also said Glorio wouldn't be able to handle the Minotaur. Are the soldiers he fought in the previous episode SSJ tier because Goku had to use it?
Is Panzy above Base Goku because she threw toilet paper twice and he couldn't react?

We can't just look at things in isolation.

It's much more logical that Goku better ascertained Glorio's power even while the latter was holding back. The same way he evaluated his power initially even if all he did was kick a fish for a few seconds, likely not close to full power.
It's common place for this type of estimations to occur.

Unless you think most of the Demon Realm can finger flick Freeza, even random animals. Yet nobody could gather the Dragon Balls and they even have fusion pills.
The Minotaur bit was before Goku knew how strong Glorio was tho. He isn't proven wrong directly. He was just basing his impressions on the previous episode that he saw Glorio fight, yet that was already enough to consider him stronger than Shin. By pure logic, the minotaur must be stronger than mini Shin, because Goku's view of Glorio was weaker than him. Unless we are just going the route of ignoring statements made by the characters themselves. But they are clearly in the story for a reason, the authors are talking trough them. You can't get more obvious than this unless you want a literal narrator to pop up and say who is stronger. It's an estimation yes, but it isn't contradicted. It never comes up episodes later. So it's clear the character was supposed to be right. There is no point on it existing storyline-wise if that wasn't the case.

As you say yourself, we can't look at things in isolation. This is why we apply consistency to one scene of Goku saying Glorio is stronger than Shin, and a later one where he thinks he can take him out with an arm. I have no idea where the solider or Panzy comparison comes from given there is no statement whatsover in neither of those scenes.

Yes, if the show is very clearly implying the minotaur is stronger than Shin and Shin was stronger than Frieza, that would mean even that "random animal" is (it isn't the case because we don't know how much weaker Shin got, but I can't believe this fandom is still arguing about the logic of these things in 2024. Dragonball has never cared about how logically powerful the enemies or rivals have been in relation to previous ones). I'm not entirely sure what the point is there. We have no idea how strong the guardians of the DBs are compared to Frieza or how your random average Majin compares to the random average citizen of other universes. It wouldn't contradict anything.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:36 pm If the wish didn't make them weaker, then what was the point of that? make them more agile? what a waste of a good wish, then.
Pretty sure we were told previously the wish did made them weaker. They are also no more agile? I don't knlw where thst comes from. They literally have problems correctly guessing distances. If anything they would have a harder time dodging things.
Last edited by MisteryOne on Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
English is not my first language. Please excuse my gramatical mistakes.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:50 pm

Shin says Goku is the strongest in their universe. Gohan snubbed again....

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Nov 15, 2024 8:57 pm

MisteryOne wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:44 pm The Minotaur bit was before Goku knew how strong Glorio was tho. He isn't proven wrong directly. He was just basing his impressions on the previous episode that he saw Glorio fight, yet that was already enough to consider him stronger than Shin. By pure logic, the minotaur must be stronger than mini Shin, because Goku's view of Glorio was weaker than him. Unless we are just going the route of ignoring statements made by the characters themselves. But they are clearly in the story for a reason, the authors are talking trough them. You can't get more obvious than this unless you want a literal narrator to pop up and say who is stronger. It's an estimation yes, but it isn't contradicted. It never comes up episodes later. So it's clear the character was supposed to be right. There is no point on it existing storyline-wise if that wasn't the case.

As you say yourself, we can't look at things in isolation. This is why we apply consistency to one scene of Goku saying Glorio is stronger than Shin, and a later one where he thinks he can take him out with an arm. I have no idea where the solider or Panzy comparison comes from given there is no statement whatsover in neither of those scenes.

Yes, if the show is very clearly implying the minotaur is stronger than Shin and Shin was stronger than Frieza, that would mean even that "random animal" is (it isn't the case because we don't know how much weaker Shin got, but I can't believe this fandom is still arguing about the logic of these things in 2024. Dragonball has never cared about how logically powerful the enemies or rivals have been in relation to previous ones). I'm not entirely sure what the point is there. We have no idea how strong the guardians of the DBs are compared to Frieza or how your random average Majin compares to the random average citizen of other universes. It wouldn't contradict anything.
Dragon Ball cares about how strong the characters are. One of the main tropes is grabbing older foes as measuring sticks.

We only know Shin's power because he uses Freeza, which was a big deal hundreds of chapters ago.
Not even the humans reached Freeza level and they were always close behind Goku. There's a clear cut-off.

We can't look at things in isolation, because sometimes there's apparent contradictions. Sometimes by mistake, sometimes for mistiming and sometimes for storytelling reasons.

- For example, in the Broly movie. Goku fights an enraged Broly in base, while Vegeta needed SSG. Obviously Goku isn't as strong in base, it's mistiming.
- A more egregious error, the Boo Arc. Why was Shin constantly shitting his pants and shocked the Saiyans weren't ganging up on Pui-Pui when he literally held SSJ2 Gohan back. Likewise for Dabra.
- The Panzy example is just another of taking everything at face value. Her throwing toilet paper is clearly for comedic value but if we take everything serious, then she has twice been faster than Base Goku.

Like I wrote for this situation in concrete:

Isn't the logical reasoning that, like Shin clearly stated, neither character got serious until mid fight? Goku's line "you're better than I thought" is just common fluff and since Goku needed to go SSJ at the end his initial convictions are confirmed.

Also, what's the point of making Goku this incompetent? He completely misjudged Glorio then. If a holding back Glorio is even better than his first evaluation and then he even needs to go SSJ!

It's not likely that every random creature is Freeza level; or worst since Goku went SSJ for random soldiers.
Base Saiyans being stronger than Freeza is contradictory from the get-go taking into account the thematic of the whole Cell arc.
Fights having a warming up phase is another Dragon Ball trope, it's not the end all.

There's also situation B.
In which Goku was referring to Mini-Shin and not "Adult Shin". This would be dreadful writing since we have no idea about Mini Shin, therefore no point of reference making that line useless.

We can also be pedantic and say Goku is talking off his ass. He can't feel Shin's Ki and never saw him fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:19 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 2:54 pmI don't remember him doing that, I do remember him not knowing Goku was fighting at 80%, which means if he were to guess at that moment, Beerus would be off.
I’m referring specifically to his initial portrayal in Dragon Ball Super, which I linked in my previous post. For instance, he compares the present Super Saiyan Goku’s power to Freeza, and makes a similar comparison with Vegeta’s Super Saiyan 2 versus Goku's Super Saiyan 3. He even recognizes Goku has hidden potential that he doesn’t even dream of, like in the instance in which Goku’s body senses Beerus’ intention to attack before he does. While Beerus may lack perfect ki sensing, his intuition isn’t ‘way off’ as shown. The 80% example is more of a one-off exception than evidence against his consistency overall.

And why would Goku refute? Maybe he understood that Beerus wasn't saying in the present tense, but in the past tense.
In my interpretation, Goku doesn’t challenge Beerus’ statement because it’s in the present tense—Beerus says, ‘as you are now.’ This suggests Beerus was evaluating Goku’s current state, not a past comparison, making it odd that Goku would ‘reinterpret’ Beerus’ comment rather than simply clarifying if he felt he was stronger. I feel it’s more plausible that Goku didn’t correct him because he agreed with the assessment.

The context here is totally different.
In both instances, Goku is challenged based on his perceived need to transform to fight Freeza-level power, and Goku’s lack of objection in Battle of Gods and his outright refusal in Resurrection of F supports Beerus’ initial assessment. It’s reasonable to see these as complementary, where Goku only feels comfortable taking on Freeza without transforming after Whis’ intense training.

Yeah, but it doesn't really matter his "more cohesive take", it contradicts the OVA and your image (and its manga). Also, Dragon Ball Super's portrayal doesn't show or state that base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza, unless you're referring to the retellings, which again, I don't consider. I was hoping to find anything else, from any other place other than the retellings. And even if we were to take his statement, Abo and Cado being weaker than Freeza hardly means Abocado would be weaker than or on Freeza's level. It would still be completely possible for Abocado to be stronger than Freeza. So not only what he said is contradictory, it is pointless as well.

By the way, and I don't know how I didn't notice this before, Goten and Trunks fought Abo and Cado, who are on Freeza's level, in their base forms and they were winning, they pushed the siblings to merge. Goku then proceeds to defeat Abocado with a single blow, which means Super Saiyan was an overkill, base form would have provided some battle, but with Goku comfortably coming out as victorious against Abocado. All in all, this pretty much confirms Goku surpassed Freeza by that point.
I acknowledged the Chozenshuu source favors your interpretation, especially with Aka’s lack of direct comparison to Freeza. However, I feel Toyotaro’s take is still relevant in the Dragon Ball Super context.

By the way, the Dragon Ball Weekly Character Showcase recently featured Kado. Surprisingly, there is no mention of Kado being as strong as Freeza in the OVA, despite it being mentioned that 'he was said to be of roughly comparable strength to the Ginyu Force' in the past (a line took straight from the OVA). I guess this could hint at something...

The sixteen-year gap alone is more than enough evidence. Otherwise Cell saga Goku is weaker than 21st tournament Goku; Evil Dragons saga Goku is weaker than Majin Buu saga Goku... Sixteen years, which means a decade and a half, is more than enough time for Goku to make huge leaps in power, and to surpass Freeza. Any idea that goes against this pretty much contradicts the very foundation that Dragon Ball stands for. It contradicts all the countless times it was said and shown that Saiyans grow stronger during and after a battle. It contradicts everything Goku goes through and strives for.

You don't need the series, guidebooks or someone to take your hand and say "Movie 14 base Goku is weaker than Freeza", if you closely follow Dragon Ball, then this is the natural conclusion to be had, as common sense would be your best friend here. And even if the series, guidebooks or someone actually took your hand and said "Movie 14 base Goku is weaker than Freeza", it would be a very contradictory line given everything Dragon Ball has shown and established since its inception.
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t view the sixteen-year gap as direct proof of base Goku surpassing Freeza. Power gains in Dragon Ball post-Freeza were primarily through transformations and fusions, as even Toriyama admitted difficulty in escalating Goku’s base strength without these devices. If we rely on ‘common sense’ in Dragon Ball, transformations provide the clearest foundation for Goku’s exponential power gains post-Freeza, making the idea that his base alone surpassed Freeza feel more speculative than concrete.

MisteryOne wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:44 pm But like...just by applying logic, there is no reason for Shin to grow weaker than Goku, exponientally speaking. So that should mean adult base Goku is still above adult Shin. And we all know what adult Shin said about Frieza.
I understand the perspective you're presenting, but I don't think the events in Daima contradict Beerus' assessment from Battle of Gods about Goku being weaker than Freeza. The context of Goku's fight with Glorio is important because, although Goku is portrayed as being able to outfight Glorio in raw combat, Glorio’s magic plays a key role in shifting the fight's dynamics. Goku even needed to go Super Saiyan to neutralize Glorio's magical lightning attack, which highlights a difference between traditional combat and facing enemies with unique abilities that Goku isn’t as accustomed to gauging or dealing with.

Shin’s warning about Glorio also supports this idea. Shin likely recognizes that while Goku can handle Glorio in a straightforward battle, Glorio’s magical powers could pose a more significant threat. This doesn’t necessarily contradict the idea that Goku, at this point, is still not as strong as Freeza in his Namek arc level, especially considering that Goku’s fighting ability and strength are not the only factors in battles, when magic or other non-physical abilities are involved.

Regarding the specific comparison between Goku and Shin, I think it’s clear that Shin might still be on a different tier due to his divine nature and techniques, but we can interpret that Shin’s strength is not purely about raw combat power either. Shin could be more reliant on divine abilities or magic rather than pure physical strength. Therefore, the events in Daima seem to further demonstrate that while Goku has grown considerably stronger, there are still situations, such as facing opponents like Glorio with magical powers, where Goku’s base form, despite being stronger, may still be outmatched by someone with more specialized abilities.

So, I don’t see this as a contradiction to Beerus’ statement but rather an expansion of the different factors that play into the power dynamics in Dragon Ball, especially when you consider characters like Shin or Glorio, whose magic makes them a different type of challenge for Goku.

Zephyr wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:50 pmShin says Goku is the strongest in their universe. Gohan snubbed again....
I think this statement could reflect recent events rather than the Boo arc dynamics. Also, Shin and Piccolo might not account for Gohan’s hidden power, because it is usually tied to Gohan’s motivation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Gogetason » Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:32 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:19 pm
I think this statement could reflect recent events rather than the Boo arc dynamics. Also, Shin and Piccolo might not account for Gohan’s hidden power, because it is usually tied to Gohan’s motivation.
But shin hasnt seen goku in ssj3 since the battle with kid buu.And he knows how strong ultimate gohan is because gohan powered up in front him and put the beat down on super buu.

Do people really need better confirmation than that :crazy:

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:04 pm

Gogetason wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:32 pm But shin hasnt seen goku in ssj3 since the battle with kid buu. And he knows how strong ultimate gohan is because gohan powered up in front him and put the beat down on super buu.

Do people really need better confirmation than that :crazy:
Zephyr's point is that Dragon Ball often reflects Toriyama’s historical challenges in giving Gohan a sustained role. What Shin stated could either suggest a purposeful narrative exclusion, since Goku said that Gohan was absent because he was busy studying in episode #1, or could hint at a future secret role, and then his strength could be significant again. Gohan's strength might not be accounted for until it's needed.


Edit: A quick update in the chain based on Dragon Ball Daima Episode #6:

1. Super Saiyan Goku: Overwhelmingly stronger than Glorio and capable of nullifying his ultimate magic attack effortlessly.

2. Glorio: Weaker than Base Goku in raw combat, but seemingly stronger than Shin in magic and durability.

3. Shin: Below Base Goku in combat power, but a magical threat significant enough to keep Freeza in check.

4. Freeza: Still stronger in raw power than Base Goku, but limited in versatility against divine or magical techniques.

5. Base Goku: Superior in combat skill and strength to Glorio and Shin, but reliant on transformations to overcome high-level magic.

6. Minotaur: Failed to cause an impression, but he is likely close to or slightly below Base Goku, based on Goku's reaction.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Nov 16, 2024 12:50 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:19 pmI acknowledged the Chozenshuu source favors your interpretation, especially with Aka’s lack of direct comparison to Freeza. However, I feel Toyotaro’s take is still relevant in the Dragon Ball Super context.

By the way, the Dragon Ball Weekly Character Showcase recently featured Kado. Surprisingly, there is no mention of Kado being as strong as Freeza in the OVA, despite it being mentioned that 'he was said to be of roughly comparable strength to the Ginyu Force' in the past (a line took straight from the OVA). I guess this could hint at something...

I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t view the sixteen-year gap as direct proof of base Goku surpassing Freeza. Power gains in Dragon Ball post-Freeza were primarily through transformations and fusions, as even Toriyama admitted difficulty in escalating Goku’s base strength without these devices. If we rely on ‘common sense’ in Dragon Ball, transformations provide the clearest foundation for Goku’s exponential power gains post-Freeza, making the idea that his base alone surpassed Freeza feel more speculative than concrete.
Nothing on the fact that Goten and Trunks, in their base forms, forced Abo and Cado, who are on Freeza's level, to merge? Did we reach the point of saying that base Goku is as strong as, or maybe weaker, than base Goten and Trunks as well in this Dendeforsaken thread?

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:48 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 12:50 am Nothing on the fact that Goten and Trunks, in their base forms, forced Abo and Cado, who are on Freeza's level, to merge? Did we reach the point of saying that base Goku is as strong as, or maybe weaker, than base Goten and Trunks as well in this Dendeforsaken thread?
Your point about Goten and Trunks forcing Abo and Kado to merge in their base forms is fair, but it hinges on the assumption that Abo and Kado’s strength pre-fusion is definitively at Freeza’s true form level. This is where the reinterpretation becomes relevant, as it subtly shifts their implied strength to being more comparable to a suppressed Freeza rather than his true form.

The Kado entry notably emphasizes them being “roughly comparable to the Ginyu Force in Namek arc” rather than making a direct link to Freeza’s power level as stated in the OVA. This reinterpretation weakens the argument that their strength is directly tied to Freeza’s peak power in Namek. If we accept this adjustment, Goten and Trunks overcoming them in base doesn’t inherently suggest that base Goten and Trunks are superior to Freeza’s full strength, only to a level comparable to a suppressed Freeza.

So it’s not that we’re saying base Goku is weaker than base Goten, it’s that the context around Abo and Kado’s strength remains open to interpretation, especially with newer sources adjusting earlier assumptions.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Nov 16, 2024 6:56 pm

I think everyone's forgetting that Goku fighting even-ish in base with characters he has trouble defeating as a Super Saiyan is one of the most common things that ever happens in animated Dragon Ball, pretty much since as soon as that form has existed up to the Broly movie.

Even in Toriyama's manga the whole kili scene implies he started thinking about base to Super Saiyan as a relatively small jump a while ago, but that's another story...
Zephyr wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:50 pm Shin says Goku is the strongest in their universe. Gohan snubbed again....
Reminder that by Resurrection F Gohan is so incredibly weak that he's unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan, only maintains it for a few seconds when he does, and is unable to defeat a guy explicitly said to be Zarbon-level without it, and in Battle of Gods he's clearly outperformed by both Mr. Buu and SS2 Vegeta against Beerus.

That sudden massive decline had to start somewhere...

But when he does regain his Buu arc power (and this is explicitly what he does in both the anime and manga as opposed to getting exponentially stronger), he's suddenly treated at SSB-level, which is probably also telling.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Piramid » Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:02 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:04 pm
3. Shin: Below Base Goku in combat power, but a magical threat significant enough to keep Freeza in check.

4. Freeza: Still stronger in raw power than Base Goku, but limited in versatility against divine or magical techniques.
Sorry, but no, Kaioshin doesn’t need any special techniques to defeat someone like Freeza. He could do it easily.

Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:02 pm

I wonder if Daima will retcon Shin > Piccolo. This recent stupid retcon makes Piccolo embarrassingly weak after getting almost killed by Imperfect Cell. He's weaker than base Cell Games Gohan FFS.
RandomGuy96 wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 6:56 pm But when he does regain his Buu arc power (and this is explicitly what he does in both the anime and manga as opposed to getting exponentially stronger), he's suddenly treated at SSB-level, which is probably also telling.
Not exactly.

In both mediums he regains his Boo arc power but reaches SSB level by fighting stronger foes. In the anime he trains with Piccolo between episodes 88 and 90 and matches SS2 Goku when they fight 1 to 1. He then adapts to SSB level by the end of their fight.

In the manga he just adapts to SS Kefla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:35 pm

About the "Yo! Son Goku" special:

Reminder that Freeza explicitly stated that no one ever saw his true form and lived, besides his family. Likewise, Tarble when describing Abo and Cado as equals to Freeza was thinking, with even an accompanying shot, of Freeza's first form. There is also absolutely no way that Tarble would know that a) Freeza could transform; and b) How powerful Freeza truly was in his true form.

Take that as you will.

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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Nov 16, 2024 9:56 pm

I feel like one way to possibly end most people's doubts is Piccolo's role in Daima. Let's remember that Piccolo will also be a relevant character alongside Goku and Vegeta.

In the opening, Piccolo is seen powering up alongside SSJ Vegeta, and while I don't think openings are indication of anything, let's say that if Piccolo manages to outperform Base Saiyans in Daima, having feats better than them and more comparable to their SSJ selfs, then it's clear that Shin was never meant to be stronger than Piccolo, and that Piccolo only talked that way about Shin in the tournament due to respect, since these recent Daima episodes state that Shin is weaker than Glorio, and in turn show Glorio as weaker than Base Goku without using magic.

However, there's also the other possibility, which is that Piccolo could suddenly perform worse, or is implied to be weaker than Base Goku and Vegeta. If that's the case, then there could be implications that Base Saiyans are a lot stronger than thought, since Piccolo is DEFINITELY far above Frieza as seen in the Android/Cell arc after his fusion with Kami. And Piccolo perfoming this poorly would also not contradict his inferiority to Shin.

Piccolo's role in Daima is key to end maybe not all, but at least most people's doubts when it comes to the whole "Shin vs Piccolo" topic, as well as Piccolo's position compared to the Base Saiyans.

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RandomGuy96
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Nov 16, 2024 11:36 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:02 pm Not exactly.

In both mediums he regains his Boo arc power but reaches SSB level by fighting stronger foes. In the anime he trains with Piccolo between episodes 88 and 90 and matches SS2 Goku when they fight 1 to 1. He then adapts to SSB level by the end of their fight.

In the manga he just adapts to SS Kefla.
He matches/beats SS2 Goku because Goku is clearly not any stronger than he was in the Buu arc in the same forms by the time of the anime ToP. This retcon kicked in around the time he was matched by a Trunks who struggled with Dabra and was fully solidified with his fights in the ToP. In the manga, of course, there never had to be a retcon.

I don't think you're supposed to believe that he did a bunch of training and then had a huge dramatic power up to explicitly his Buu arc level, and then trained/fought for just a few days/minutes off-screen and suddenly dwarfed all the gains from said power-up and rendered the level he was striving for completely irrelevant. That isn't how narratives work.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Hugo Boss
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Re: Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Nov 16, 2024 11:49 pm

Piramid wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:02 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:04 pm
3. Shin: Below Base Goku in combat power, but a magical threat significant enough to keep Freeza in check.

4. Freeza: Still stronger in raw power than Base Goku, but limited in versatility against divine or magical techniques.
Sorry, but no, Kaioshin doesn’t need any special techniques to defeat someone like Freeza. He could do it easily.

Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Single blow could mean a single punch or a single shot. It’s not necessarily a definitive statement about Shin’s raw combat strength, especially since his cautious behavior during the Boo arc suggests he might rely more on strategy rather than traditional battle brawl.

Also add that Shin’s physical limitations are evident. He couldn’t lift the Z Sword with his own hands, suggesting that his raw strength is significantly lower than fighters like Goku or even Gohan during the Boo arc. This further supports the notion that Shin’s confidence against Freeza relies more on magical tools than brute force.

Lastly, we could consider that Shin’s comment may reflect the general reputation of Kaioshins rather than his personal capabilities, particularly since he has been portrayed as less powerful than expected for his role in the hierarchy of gods.

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