Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 19 - Official Discussion Thread

[Brettjr25]

Can I just say that I'm kinda shocked that people are so into SS4 Adult Goku that noone cares about the details?

I'm not a Daima hater, quit the opposite and I've always appreciated SS4 design but SS4 appearance in this episode only further sparked questions on what exactly it is and how it triggers. Goku tail just appears and he became fully aware of it and can change at will when it was just a boost Neva game him without letting him know?

I guess I just wasnt as hyped because I was sitting there waiting for Neva or Goku to explain it instead of just power up.

[Hugo Boss]

Can I just say that I'm kinda shocked that people are so into SS4 Adult Goku that noone cares about the details?

I'm not a Daima hater, quit the opposite and I've always appreciated SS4 design but SS4 appearance in this episode only further sparked questions on what exactly it is and how it triggers. Goku tail just appears and he became fully aware of it and can change at will when it was just a boost Neva game him without letting him know?

I guess I just wasnt as hyped because I was sitting there waiting for Neva or Goku to explain it instead of just power up.

I think SS4 in this case works similarly to how Goku used it in GT, just without the Golden Oozaru step as a gateway. It seems like Neva basically unlocked the transformation directly, rather than forcing Goku to go through the usual process.

As for the tail, yeah, it’s a bit weird, but transformations in Dragon Ball have always played fast and loose with anatomy. SS3 randomly extends hair and removes eyebrows, so I don’t see much issue with SS4 regrowing a tail when triggered. It’s just one of those things where I accept it as part of the form’s mechanics.

[JulieYBM]

Can I just say that I'm kinda shocked that people are so into SS4 Adult Goku that noone cares about the details?

I'm not a Daima hater, quit the opposite and I've always appreciated SS4 design but SS4 appearance in this episode only further sparked questions on what exactly it is and how it triggers. Goku tail just appears and he became fully aware of it and can change at will when it was just a boost Neva game him without letting him know?

I guess I just wasnt as hyped because I was sitting there waiting for Neva or Goku to explain it instead of just power up.

People care about the details. I absolutely think that the form should have been explained by now. That doesn't mean people can't be glad to have the form being given more time to shine.

[Artorias]

While you're correct about Granolah, Glorio has basically the opposite problem. He has essentially no character or backstory that is then followed up with a totally unearned and bizarrely emotional character arc climax.

Look, man, you don't have to like Glorio as a character. I know there's plenty of shit in this franchise people find narratively compelling that rings utterly hollow to me, like OG SS4.

But what you said is factually not true. It's very hard to take criticisms like "he had no backstory until now" seriously when they just blatantly resort to spreading misinformation.

Nearly every piece of Glorio's background was revealed waaaaaay back in episode 6 when he tells the group he was originally from the third world but earned the privilege to live in the first. This is the same episode he's revealed to be working for Arinsu. Connecting the dots here isn't rocket science: Glorio lived in poverty like everyone in the third world, then Arinsu took him in in exchange for reconnaissance duties. The only new thing concerning his backstory in this episode is that he feels deeply indebted to Arinsu for doing this.

I know from yours and a lot of similar posts ITT that this was evidently forgotten about, and that's why I describe all these moments as 'subtle' – I genuinely think a lot of the detractors in these threads didn't catch things that would otherwise directly refute what they're saying, barely even understand what it is they're complaining about, and would have more to gain from simply rewatching the show than anyone.

So now I'm just convinced that over time, this fandom is going to start changing its tune when/if they go back to see what the writing was actually doing with his arc there. He consistently gets something to show (read: not "tell", which is funny when I'm addressing people that parade around "show don't tell" as if it's some sacred rule of storytelling) he's bonding with the characters or feeling conflicted about what he's doing in nearly every episode.

Him smirking once at a character or fist bumping Panzy once is absolutely not sufficient to sell the idea that he's truly come to care about the group that he's with.

I disagree. Throughout the show he displays a pretty diverse range of emotions and expressions every time the group finds themselves in a pinch, and there are a number of times we see him intervene when it would otherwise be more rational not to. And that's just the kind of character he is; Glorio has no reason to be chatterboxing a bunch of people he's literally been using from the start of their adventure. His silence is his dialogue.

I've yet to hear any counter suggestions for this character that isn't just complete nonsense like him wearing his heart on his sleeve or going on some diatribe about how conflicted he is, which, of course, would be absurdly OOC.

His arc achieves exactly what it was meant to.

My suggestion would be to model this like a ton of other competent storylines that have tackled something like this. The "bad or immoral guy that joins the crew and begrudgingly grows attached to them along the way" is not a particularly unique trope, and it's been done much better in many stories. There is a middle ground between "wearing your heart on your sleeve" and smirking at someone for two seconds a few times in 20 episodes.

Obviously a lot of this is subjective, so I'm not trying to necessarily convince you to change your view of him, but I'm displaying why I and a LOT of other people struggled to give a shit about him at all. Having Glorio actually SPEAK real dialogue that tells us something about how he feels would be a nice start. I don't mean spell out how he feels, but provide implications. Give him moments with individual cast members where he connects with them in some way, again beyond giving them a high five. Explain his backstory beyond surface level, allow us to know exactly why he joined Arinsu, so that we can gain better insight into his mindset, and we can fully relate to him during his big switch of sides. We know practically nothing about this dude. Again, he simply sits in the background and says virtually nothing that isn't plot focused dialogue for most of this show. And I can't objectively say you're wrong or anything, but I certainly don't agree that "his silence is his dialogue". You can have a mostly silent character, but typically in fiction, good silent characters avoid becoming boring by making sure that anytime they DO open their mouth, it's impactful. Clever writers are able to pack a lot of information about a silent-type character into few words.
This show doesn't possess that grace with its writing. His dialogue is almost all functional to the plot, not character focused.

I wouldn't even argue with you that my view of him could slightly improve with a rewatch, but I can't imagine it would flip me around to thinking he's some deep fully realized character. There's just not enough to work with.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Can I just say that I'm kinda shocked that people are so into SS4 Adult Goku that no one cares about the details?

I just got Ssj3 Vegeta, so I'm willing to overlook anything at this point.

[emperior]

Vegeta, in his water form, canonically fux.

That came so far out of left field that I burst out laughing, rewound to make sure I didn't misread it, and then made me forgive the last 6 episodes for being just boring action scenes ad infinitum.

I dare say this one gag has made all of Daima super worth it.

Was so taken aback by that moment that I neglected to talk about the other thing I really liked in this episode.

Goku isn’t a conventionally smart person, so he’s often times written as just an idiot. I thought him forgetting Glorio’s name was just this gag, forgetting that Toriyama is the one writing him here. But this episode pretty clearly shows that Goku saw through Glorio and never internalized his name because he wasn’t being honest with them. It’s only after Glorio comes clean and bares it all that Goku finally acknowledged him.

I don’t think Goku was deliberately doing this. But he has a knack for seeing through people. It’s a trait only Toriyama and Toyotaro remember Goku has.

Right, this was something I really enjoyed seeing. It’s subtle but completely in-character.

He’s been written very well all throughout Daima, but in this episode he was just amazing.

[Zekken]

9.3/10 (I gave the last oen a 10 but i guess the bar changes when they're adults)
Glorio and Arinsu showed a more nuanced relationship which i like. Makes you think that Arinus ia not as bad as youre lead to think. But at the same time she still wants a fierce demon realm. Hmmm maybe for Toriyama those two aspects were not mutually exclusive? Anyway her finding a loyal bond with Kuu moments later too was nice to see.

On to Vegeta and yes this is an episode that will just be cemented in the DB history books among fans. The time Vegeta finally showed us his SS3 in full force, as well with some unique Toriyama comedy that just furthers the Vege-bul agenda they have been riding even more.

And Oh BOY GOKU proving why he is an ICON. With animation from Takahashi which really looks like those high quality raw fan animations but this is all REAL!!

[Mr Baggins]

You can have a mostly silent character, but typically in fiction, good silent characters avoid becoming boring by making sure that anytime they DO open their mouth, it's impactful. Clever writers are able to pack a lot of information about a silent-type character into few words.

I would conversely argue that the best silent characters manage to be impactful with exactly zero dialogue. The most powerful scenes in The Revenant are Hugh Glass's emotive reactions while helplessly witnessing his son's murder, traveling with Hikuc and also witnessing his death, or enacting his revenge on Fitzgerald – and most of his few words in the film are largely just surface level plot stuff. Gromit consistently steals the show in Wallace & Gromit purely because of his reactions to the things going on around him.

There is no right or wrong way to convey silent protagonism in stories. I would never try to claim that Glorio is the most masterful execution of it, but I don't think I need to. What's there is more than sufficient for the catharsis it built to, and there's certainly more of a throughline for him than for the character I compared him with.

(which kinda feels like a gut punch to talk about as someone who really, desperately wanted to like the Granolah arc)

Right, this was something I really enjoyed seeing. It’s subtle but completely in-character.

He’s been written very well all throughout Daima, but in this episode he was just amazing.

Thirded.

But shifting back to Vegeta, his Toriyama-authored jokes are also great because they demonstrate how drastically he's changed as a person. True, the bingo dance might have been the first to tackle it, and there's been a number of similar moments in Daima, but what we got from this episode is so much funnier and snappier that it might be my favorite Vegeta gag ever.

[TKA]

I have no issues with Glorio.

They did such a good job of establishing his character that when he stole the dragonballs last episode, I was expecting some big reveal that arinsu kidnapped his sister/parents/dog and is going to kill them if he doesn't obey her. That would be the only way to justify him betraying them after he'd so clearly become their friend. There were many, many opportunities for him to backstab them that he didn't take and many chances where he went out of his way to help them.

Also, this is dragonball. Literally every friend Goku has has tried to kill him at some point. Glorio is in the top percentile since he hasn't tried to even once.

--------------------------

So I generally didn't have an interest in posting about Daima because I want to enjoy Toriyama's last work without anyone else's questions, comments or concerns tainting the experience, but the Vegeta gag and the wonderful Goku characterization made me have to say something.

Another good bit is Arinsu as a character. I love Towa [as seen in Xenoverse 1 and 2; I have no interest in Heroes or anything it does], so it pains me to say this, but Arinsu is a better reskin of her. She could've just been evil scientist lady, but her accepting Kuu and Duu for the silly little guys they are, and forgiving Glorio and letting him leave the nest without too much of a fuss adds a lot of layers to her. She feels like a 3 dimensional character.

She's certainly more interesting than Degesu and Gomah.

[PrinceVegetto]

In my opinion, there are 3 main continuities:

• Continuity 1: The original manga (+ optionally including the Super manga)

• Continuity 2: The original anime run: DB, Z, GT

• Continuity 3: The modern anime run: Kai, Super, Daima

** Note that Toriyama has called Super a "casual continuation" while GT a "grand side-story" so that's where the gray area comes in.

I agree with these, I tend to follow the first (without Super manga) and the second one. The third is coherent if we consider that Super often uses Kai scenes as flashbacks and some some soundtracks from there

Exactly, Super only used Kai scenes for their flashbacks. It's been awhile since I've seen Kai so I don't know if they kept the line about Bulma telling Goku she hasn't seen him for 5 years prior to the tournament with Uub. If they did then Super messes up with that timeline.

[Xeztin]

Haven’t signed on in quite some time, hope everyone is doing well! Just wanted to drop by and say I loved everything about this episode including the transformation sequence! If this new version of SSJ4 is brought into Super’s timeline in the future, I suspect Toyotaro will finally make SSJ5 (By mixing it with UI?) official material.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Can I just say that I'm kinda shocked that people are so into SS4 Adult Goku that noone cares about the details?

I'm not a Daima hater, quit the opposite and I've always appreciated SS4 design but SS4 appearance in this episode only further sparked questions on what exactly it is and how it triggers. Goku tail just appears and he became fully aware of it and can change at will when it was just a boost Neva game him without letting him know?

I guess I just wasnt as hyped because I was sitting there waiting for Neva or Goku to explain it instead of just power up.

Goku was about to explain it when the episode ended, so you shouldn't have wait much longer.

[Artorias]

You can have a mostly silent character, but typically in fiction, good silent characters avoid becoming boring by making sure that anytime they DO open their mouth, it's impactful. Clever writers are able to pack a lot of information about a silent-type character into few words.

I would conversely argue that the best silent characters manage to be impactful with exactly zero dialogue. The most powerful scenes in The Revenant are Hugh Glass's emotive reactions while helplessly witnessing his son's murder, traveling with Hikuc and also witnessing his death, or enacting his revenge on Fitzgerald – and most of his few words in the film are largely just surface level plot stuff. Gromit consistently steals the show in Wallace & Gromit purely because of his reactions to the things going on around him.

There is no right or wrong way to convey silent protagonism in stories. I would never try to claim that Glorio is the most masterful execution of it, but I don't think I need to. What's there is more than sufficient for the catharsis it built to, and there's certainly more of a throughline for him than for the character I compared him with.

(which kinda feels like a gut punch to talk about as someone who really, desperately wanted to like the Granolah arc)

I haven't seen The Revenant, but it sounds like the emotion achieved is through profound, subtle acting in a live-action context. And Gromit is an oranges to apples comparison as well, because he's a comedic character that showcases his personality through expressive animation. Neither of these examples really apply here. You're right, I should have been more specific and not so general, that is to say that in THIS type of story, in THIS medium, you're going to need to do a lot of work to make the audience care about THIS type of silent character. This is serious character in an animated medium, where no special attention is being given to the character's actual animation or expressiveness. I'll amend my statement to be more precise. The problem isn't that he doesn't speak literally, it's that he doesn't "speak" at all, through dialogue, character animation, voice acting, etc. You bring up good examples, and it is certainly possible to present a silent character as impactful, but none of the tricks you laid out, or that I can think of, are being utilized with this character. If you personally found his arc satisfying, then hey that's all fine and good. I would just expect more from the writers, and I was deeply let down by what seemed to initially be a somewhat compelling and cool character that essentially just became a walking background art asset chauffeur.

[Hulk10]

Kakarot going into the transformation as an adult resembled his SSG first transformation.

[mecha3000]

It's weird people were praising Daima during the start for having a more adventure vibe similar to the original Dragon Ball, but now these last few eps are just straight up late-DBZ or GT style all fighting power-up episodes. It seems people are really conflicted what they wanted out of Daima. If anything I would have taken more adventure episodes exploring the world.

When it comes to Dragon Ball, you'll always hear the purists state that classic adventure Dragon Ball is better than modern action Dragon Ball, but when they get the classic adventure stuff with Daima, they hate it and suddenly get invested in the action stuff. Those people don't know what they want and hold themselves up on a pedestal, I think, because liking original DB somehow makes them better fans? I don't know. To be fair, though, I think it has more to do with Daima not executing the adventure stuff as well as it could've. I grew up with DBZ more than DB so I'm biased, but I'm always for the action heavy stuff, but I love the adventure too.

[TKA]

To be quite honest, I don't care about Super Saiyan 4. I keep myself divorced from all news surrounding Daima, so when it first showed up I was surprised, and the most it could elicit from me was "okay, so this is the new toy they wanna sell."

Just throw it into the pile of Super Saiyan transformations that appeared with no build up. SS4, SS3 and SSB. I don't see why anyone would have strong enough feelings about these to feel the need to talk about them, but that's just me.

(Though it might be a little unfair to lump SS3 with the other two. SS3 might have been a red herring, but it served its role in the plot by tricking readers into focusing on it when fusion was the real power up of the arc. The other two showed up just to market the thing they were in, long after the story ended.)

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Here's an interesting theory going around: Goku was never mistaking Glorio's name, it was intentional as a sign that he knew something was off about him. I know this was likely not intentional from the writers, but it adds to the fact that Goku is smarter than he looks (unless he's in Super).

To be quite honest, I don't care about Super Saiyan 4. Just throw it into the pile of Super Saiyan transformations that appeared with no build up. SS4, SS3 and SSB. I don't see why anyone would have strong enough feelings about these to feel the need to talk about them, but that's just me.

Fans have been wanting to see Vegeta use Ssj3 since its introduction 30 years ago. Ssj4 has always been a fan favorite design, but it just never got any good fights in GT. There's no way fans weren't going to talk about these. Unlike SsjB, Vegeta has actually been getting shit done with Ssj3. Unlike SsjB, Goku's Ssj4 isn't offensive to the eyes, it looks really good. With all that said, I'm not a fan of how both forms were introduced, as neither had an impact on the characters from a writing point of view. Ssj3 was thankfully not wasted, but it remains to be seen if Ssj4 can get the job done.

[Mr Baggins]

Though it might be a little unfair to lump SS3 with the other two. SS3 might have been a red herring, but it served its role in the plot by tricking readers into focusing on it when fusion was the real power up of the arc.

Oh yeah, I'd definitely give it more credit than Blue. I made a whole post last thread laying out all the ways SS3 contributed to the Buu arc from a narrative standpoint, and I especially appreciate what it did for Vegeta's dynamic with Goku.

All Super Saiyan forms in the original run have pretty good subtext to them in one way or another, I feel.

This is serious character in an animated medium, where no special attention is being given to the character's actual animation or expressiveness.

Well, I dunno what to tell you other than that I thoroughly, profoundly disagree. I'd rather not list each and every time the direction focuses on Glorio's expressions and actions and little bonding moments with others, mainly because I think people would be better served just going back over it if they care to.

There's not much more to add, so I'll leave it at that.

[sangofe]

Visually, this episode is the best I've ever seen, perhaps even across all anime. What I liked the most was the joke with Bulma and Vegeta. It tied in well with a previous joke where Vegeta's reaction admits him loving Bulma's tits. I laughed so much during this joke, and the bath joke. The transformation scenes were beautiful. I also liked the scene with Kuu and Arinsu. The strategy between Goku and Piccolo was cool too. The big negative is that the story between Glori and Arinsu wasn't explained or developped. Overall, I liked episode 18 more than this episode in terms of action, but the scene between Vegeta and Bulma was my favorite scene of the episode; I've always really loved Daima for its humor and lore drops.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If this new version of SSJ4 is brought into Super’s timeline in the future, I suspect Toyotaro will finally make SSJ5 (By mixing it with UI?) official material.

Could they do that legally ? I'm not talking about Ssj5 the name, but rather that fan made design with the white fur.

The strategy between Goku and Piccolo was cool too.

We haven't seen these two team up in forever, so hopefully it's done justice next week. Actually, I hope Piccolo delivers the finishing blow this time around.