Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Clearly what I mean by statement is all types of information.
Gohan is stronger than Goku because he beat or was expected to be beat characters Goku couldn't.

If Gomah was compared to Bootenks and Goku defeated him, obviously he would be stronger than Gohan. It wouldn't be necessary to directly say he's above.

Goku was stated to be number 1 and the only one able to fight kid Buu at the end of the manga, and in the anime kid Buu is stated to be the strongest Buu then Goku matches him. In Super it's stated Goku became the strongest in the universe after beating Buu. In Daima Goku was stated to be the strongest by Shin who also knew about Gohan. So yeah, Goku actually does have the statements that say he surpassed Gohan, if Gohan ever really did surpass him.

That's simply not true.

Anyone who read the manga knows Goku is weaker than Gohan and that Pure Boo isn't the strongest Boo. I won't bother debating something that's so blatantly portrayed.

In Super, I don't remember but I'll believe you.

In Daima, if you can point me out the episode where it happens I'll check it out.
If Nahare says that, I'll be corrected that it's the intention of the story to paint Goku as the strongest.
I'm not a hypocrite, if it's in the narrative it is what it is. Dragon Ball is full of stupid power ups, this would only be another one.

[dragon boss z]

That's simply not true.

Anyone who read the manga knows Goku is weaker than Gohan and that Pure Boo isn't the strongest Boo. I won't bother debating something that's so blatantly portrayed.

In Super, I don't remember but I'll believe you.

In Daima, if you can point me out the episode where it happens I'll check it out.
If Nahare says that, I'll be corrected that it's the intention of the story to paint Goku as the strongest.
I'm not a hypocrite, if it's in the narrative it is what it is. Dragon Ball is full of stupid power ups, this would only be another one.

Here is the statement from Shin. I don't know the exact ep number but it's the scene where Goku was going to the bathroom in the bushes it seems.


Then there is also this.


Here is the statement from Super.


I think Buuhan is probably the strongest Buu in the manga, but Kid Buu>base Super Buu. It's flat out stated Super Buu's ki was going up instead of down when transforming back to Kid Buu. The people who say that was only Buff Buu are coping as it makes no sense to hype up a form that never fights.

[Berserker1921]

That's simply not true.

Anyone who read the manga knows Goku is weaker than Gohan and that Pure Boo isn't the strongest Boo. I won't bother debating something that's so blatantly portrayed.

In Super, I don't remember but I'll believe you.

In Daima, if you can point me out the episode where it happens I'll check it out.
If Nahare says that, I'll be corrected that it's the intention of the story to paint Goku as the strongest.
I'm not a hypocrite, if it's in the narrative it is what it is. Dragon Ball is full of stupid power ups, this would only be another one.

Here is the statement from Shin. I don't know the exact ep number but it's the scene where Goku was going to the bathroom in the bushes it seems.


Then there is also this.


Here is the statement from Super.


I think Buuhan is probably the strongest Buu in the manga, but Kid Buu>base Super Buu. It's flat out stated Super Buu's ki was going up instead of down when transforming back to Kid Buu. The people who say that was only Buff Buu are coping as it makes no sense to hype up a form that never fights.

I think Goku surpassed Gohan after defeating Buu. Probably sometime after Daima, either because he kept pushing his limits and growing, or combination of that and Gohan slacking.

[DBZ Macky]

Does it look like this guy still has his Ultimate form?


In my opinion, Daima Gohan (Base) <<<< Buu Saga Goku (SS3) < Daima Goku (SS3) << Buu Saga Gohan (Ultimate)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan and Gotenks surpassing Goku was just a fluke. The new stories rectify that Goku is always top dog among his friends.

Does it look like this guy still has his Ultimate form?


In my opinion, Daima Gohan (Base) <<<< Buu Saga Goku (SS3) < Daima Goku (SS3) << Buu Saga Gohan (Ultimate)

They’re all in their base forms lol. That’s how it is in every opening.

[LightBing]

snip

Thank you for finding these. I stand corrected. Goku is the strongest in Daima.

The question is by how much? Since the repeated theme is that Gohan doesn't train, I assume he lost most of his Ultimate power in this year gap justifying Goku's superior position.

[ZombieVito]

This is further proof that Gotenks and Gohan where never multiple times stronger than SS3 Goku.

Goku (Boo): 80
SS3: 32,000
Daima: 100
SS3 (Daima): 40,000

Gotenks: 120
SS3: 48,000

Gohan (Boo): 120
Ultimate: 60,000
Daima: 100
Ultimate (Daima): 36,000
BoG: 80
Ultimate (BoG): 18,000
RoF: 60

Gotenks can be excluded since some consider fusion cheating (Like Vegeta) and Gohan along with his Ultimate form simply got weaker as time went on until he lost the ability to use it by the RoF arc.

[DBZ Macky]

They’re all in their base forms lol. That’s how it is in every opening.

Well, what about the fact that Gohan transformed into a regular Super Saiyan instead of his Ultimate form in the BoG and RoF arcs?
Even in the Yo! Son Goku OVA, Gohan didn't transform even when things got bad.
The implication (especially in Super) seems to be that Gohan lost SS2 and Ultimate just a short while after Buu's defeat.

[Yuji]

Gohan does seem to have the closed Ultimate eyes there. But I still think the Strongest statements are just promo material and not legitimate power scaling.

[Hugo Boss]

They’re all in their base forms lol. That’s how it is in every opening.

Well, what about the fact that Gohan transformed into a regular Super Saiyan instead of his Ultimate form in the BoG and RoF arcs?
Even in the Yo! Son Goku OVA, Gohan didn't transform even when things got bad.
The implication (especially in Super) seems to be that Gohan lost SS2 and Ultimate just a short while after Buu's defeat.

I think you’re right. Super strongly implies that Gohan barely can use Super Saiyan not long after the Boo arc. In Battle of Gods’ draft, he only transforms into SS1, and by Resurrection F, he outright states he hasn’t trained and struggles just to go SS1.

Vegeta’s statement that he wasn’t satisfied with being #2 forever further supports the idea that Toriyama wasn’t factoring in any forms beyond SS1 when ranking Goku and Vegeta as the top two. If Gohan still had Ultimate, that line wouldn’t make sense, and Gotenks being completely left out of the conversation suggests the same. So, it’s likely that by BoG, Ultimate Gohan or SS3 Gotenks weren’t vivid in Toriyama’s memory.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Did we ever get to the bottom to why Gohan was a SSJ and whose idea was it? All I ever hear about it is that it was an animation error, not a scripted thing.

[Hugo Boss]

Did we ever get to the bottom to why Gohan was a SSJ and whose idea was it? All I ever hear about it is that it was an animation error, not a scripted thing.

When asked about it, scriptwriter Yūsuke Watanabe claimed that Gohan wasn’t a Super Saiyan in the movie. Despite this, the final movie still had Gohan turning Super Saiyan, likely due to miscommunication or an oversight in production.

So, it seems Toei either mistakenly animated it or made the change themselves without aligning with Watanabe’s intent. This could explain why Resurrection ‘F’ and early Super continued portraying Gohan as having lost Ultimate, even though that wasn’t his original plan.

[Koitsukai]

They’re all in their base forms lol. That’s how it is in every opening.

Well, what about the fact that Gohan transformed into a regular Super Saiyan instead of his Ultimate form in the BoG and RoF arcs?
Even in the Yo! Son Goku OVA, Gohan didn't transform even when things got bad.
The implication (especially in Super) seems to be that Gohan lost SS2 and Ultimate just a short while after Buu's defeat.

I think you’re right. Super strongly implies that Gohan barely can use Super Saiyan not long after the Boo arc. In Battle of Gods’ draft, he only transforms into SS1, and by Resurrection F, he outright states he hasn’t trained and struggles just to go SS1.

Vegeta’s statement that he wasn’t satisfied with being #2 forever further supports the idea that Toriyama wasn’t factoring in any forms beyond SS1 when ranking Goku and Vegeta as the top two. If Gohan still had Ultimate, that line wouldn’t make sense, and Gotenks being completely left out of the conversation suggests the same. So, it’s likely that by BoG, Ultimate Gohan or SS3 Gotenks weren’t vivid in Toriyama’s memory.

I agree with this.
Gohan has been kicked the fuck down the ladder ever since the revival started.
I would bet money that Toriyama forgot/didn't care how he ended the manga in the powerscaling department; he wanted to tell new stories about Goku and Vegeta, he gave them new forms, new challenges, and also bumped them up in the scale. And sidelined Gohan like he wasn't even an important character, at all.
One could make an argument that Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan because some filler episodes said so and also the last Z movie went with that, but not about Vegeta, in any media. Ever.
And for the revival era, Vegeta is #2... actually in BoG he is #1 for a while. There's no retroactive mental gymnastics to justify both of them being above Gohan in the Buu arc.

I think Akira thought to himself "welp, I don't care it doesn't add up, now Goku and Vegeta are the shit, Gohan doesn't even like doing this, I'm leaving him out. The audience can think whatever they want: he's been slacking, he quit, his last power up was temporary or needed to be sustained, don't know, don't care, you fill in the blanks, I'll just write him out in favour of Goku and Vegeta".
I think that's the reason why we got the weak-ass Gohan at the beginning of the revival, and even this face-on-a-milkcarton Gohan in Daima. And not a re-interpretation of the straight-forward, crystal clear scaling of the Buu saga.

[Issei189]

They’re all in their base forms lol. That’s how it is in every opening.

Well, what about the fact that Gohan transformed into a regular Super Saiyan instead of his Ultimate form in the BoG and RoF arcs?
Even in the Yo! Son Goku OVA, Gohan didn't transform even when things got bad.
The implication (especially in Super) seems to be that Gohan lost SS2 and Ultimate just a short while after Buu's defeat.

Huh ? Gohan did transform into his Ultimate from when he charged at Beerus. He only used Super Saiyan for the SSG ritual. Are you saying that Gohan powered up in his base form during this scene ?
https://gyazo.com/10a6b92e08a51315b8c2fe50cbafd23a

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Did we ever get to the bottom to why Gohan was a SSJ and whose idea was it? All I ever hear about it is that it was an animation error, not a scripted thing.

When asked about it, scriptwriter Yūsuke Watanabe claimed that Gohan wasn’t a Super Saiyan in the movie. Despite this, the final movie still had Gohan turning Super Saiyan, likely due to miscommunication or an oversight in production.

So, it seems Toei either mistakenly animated it or made the change themselves without aligning with Watanabe’s intent. This could explain why Resurrection ‘F’ and early Super continued portraying Gohan as having lost Ultimate, even though that wasn’t his original plan.

He used Ultimate in the movie and both Super adaptations. Are you refering to the SSJG ritual scene? Because Ultimate does not precluse Gohan from using SSJ.

[Hugo Boss]

Yes, Gohan did use his Ultimate form in the movie and both Super adaptations. What I was referring to was the fact that Yūsuke Watanabe originally stated Gohan wasn’t supposed to turn Super Saiyan at all. Gohan was only meant to use Ultimate, meaning the SS1 scene was seemingly added later, whether by mistake or a deliberate change by someone else in the production.

This could explain what led to them continuing that portrayal into Resurrection ‘F’, which is only about a year after Battle of Gods. We don’t know exactly how long Videl was pregnant in Battle of Gods, but we do know Freeza was revived after Pan was already born and a few months old. Since Freeza trained for about four months before coming to Earth, that places the events of RF roughly a year after BoG.

If Gohan still had access to Ultimate four years after Majin Boo’s defeat in Battle of Gods, it would be strange for him to lose it just a single year later in Resurrection ‘F’. This suggests that someone may not have considered Ultimate for him at that point or simply didn’t account for it consistently in the narrative.

[DBZ Macky]

Are you saying that Gohan powered up in his base form during this scene ?

Yes. "Canonically", he's either in his base form or his Super Saiyan state.

https://gyazo.com/10a6b92e08a51315b8c2fe50cbafd23a

This scene is from the Battle of Gods movie after "correction"

In the original scene, with Toriyama's approval, Gohan was supposed to be a Super Saiyan here.
In the most recent version of these events, the DBS Anime, Gohan is in his Base form instead (he doesn't have his bang).

Gohan does have his bang in the DBS Manga but the Manga also doesn't recognize it as a separate transformation so he's probably in his Base form there as well.

I agree with Koitsukai, Toriyama obviously didn't think Gohan was supposed to be one of the strong guys anymore.
It's like it took Gohan 25 hours to unlock his potential and he lost it again just as fast. He goes Super Saiyan to power up in GT too, so it seems like "Ultimate Gohan" was exclusively a Buu Saga thing and/or a dropped idea.

[ZombieVito]

Yes. "Canonically", he's either in his base form or his Super Saiyan state.

https://gyazo.com/10a6b92e08a51315b8c2fe50cbafd23a

This scene is from the Battle of Gods movie after "correction"

In the original scene, with Toriyama's approval, Gohan was supposed to be a Super Saiyan here.
In the most recent version of these events, the DBS Anime, Gohan is in his Base form instead (he doesn't have his bang).

Gohan does have his bang in the DBS Manga but the Manga also doesn't recognize it as a separate transformation so he's probably in his Base form there as well.

I agree with Koitsukai, Toriyama obviously didn't think Gohan was supposed to be one of the strong guys anymore.
It's like it took Gohan 25 hours to unlock his potential and he lost it again just as fast. He goes Super Saiyan to power up in GT too, so it seems like "Ultimate Gohan" was exclusively a Buu Saga thing and/or a dropped idea.

He can't be in base since Piccolo was surprised he got beat after seeing Boo fall to Beerus. I like to think Gohan's lack of bang is an indicator that indeed is Ultimate form weakened.

As far as I remember, he does have Ultimate in GT. He just stacks Super Saiyan on top of it. I think a guide confirmed it.

[TobyS]

Goku stronger than Gohan is either toei bullshit in the same way early pre bog super filler has vegeta say gokus the strongest, or he's accounting for gohan being a baby.

Unlike bog or rof where you can debate gohans loss of power and gokus gains this is far closer to right after boo then it is bog. Shin also doesn't know about 4 either.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes, Gohan did use his Ultimate form in the movie and both Super adaptations. What I was referring to was the fact that Yūsuke Watanabe originally stated Gohan wasn’t supposed to turn Super Saiyan at all. Gohan was only meant to use Ultimate, meaning the SS1 scene was seemingly added later, whether by mistake or a deliberate change by someone else in the production.

This could explain what led to them continuing that portrayal into Resurrection ‘F’, which is only about a year after Battle of Gods. We don’t know exactly how long Videl was pregnant in Battle of Gods, but we do know Freeza was revived after Pan was already born and a few months old. Since Freeza trained for about four months before coming to Earth, that places the events of RF roughly a year after BoG.

If Gohan still had access to Ultimate four years after Majin Boo’s defeat in Battle of Gods, it would be strange for him to lose it just a single year later in Resurrection ‘F’. This suggests that someone may not have considered Ultimate for him at that point or simply didn’t account for it consistently in the narrative.

I agree with the final part. Gohan losing his power is just as likely as Goku gaining power. But in this case, wouldn't that make Gotenks the strongest? Or does he not count because he's a fusion, making Goku the true number one?

Are you saying that Gohan powered up in his base form during this scene ?

Yes. "Canonically", he's either in his base form or his Super Saiyan state.

https://gyazo.com/10a6b92e08a51315b8c2fe50cbafd23a

This scene is from the Battle of Gods movie after "correction"

In the original scene, with Toriyama's approval, Gohan was supposed to be a Super Saiyan here.
In the most recent version of these events, the DBS Anime, Gohan is in his Base form instead (he doesn't have his bang).

Gohan does have his bang in the DBS Manga but the Manga also doesn't recognize it as a separate transformation so he's probably in his Base form there as well.

I agree with Koitsukai, Toriyama obviously didn't think Gohan was supposed to be one of the strong guys anymore.
It's like it took Gohan 25 hours to unlock his potential and he lost it again just as fast. He goes Super Saiyan to power up in GT too, so it seems like "Ultimate Gohan" was exclusively a Buu Saga thing and/or a dropped idea.

As per the interview Hugo shared, Gohan using SSJ vs Beerus was a mistake. The final, canon, Toriyama-approved version is with Gohan using Ultimate. Might have been a watered down, limited Ultimate, but Ultimate nonetheless.

For what it's worth I think Piccolo says Gohan hasn't been Ultimate since the Boo Saga in the DBS Anime, but as Vito said him losing to Beerus is a big deal.

Goku stronger than Gohan is either toei bullshit in the same way early pre bog super filler has vegeta say gokus the strongest, or he's accounting for gohan being a baby.

Unlike bog or rof where you can debate gohans loss of power and gokus gains this is far closer to right after boo then it is bog. Shin also doesn't know about 4 either.

Toei does have a track record of overhyping Goku, but I think Toriyama is to blame too. Being the simple writer that he was, it's only natural he'd take the main character to be the strongest. Gohan is a second fiddle just like Vegeta, and Gotenks was swept under the rug like the bad joke he is.

The only Toeism here is Vegeta's line in the DBS Anime. He says Goku became the strongest by defeating Boo, like Goku was already stronger than Gohan by the Kid Boo fight. That's unlikely.