What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, there is a reason Dragon Ball is one of, if not the most beloved anime and manga series of all time, because, the original run, at least is a genuinely timeless, fun and endearing story.

Conversely, as with anything else it's immense popularity inspired a hipster mindset that its cool, in some circles to say Dragon Ball is bad, or always has been. Couldn't disagree more with either though.

We seen it with Star Wars, which was considered near perfect from 1977-1982, come 1983 Return of the Jedi (actually my favourite movie in the franchise) rolls around and was a letdown to some but still considered decent, although being the redheaded stepchild of the original trilogy became pointed to decades after when the prequels or Last Jedi got criticism to make a point that "Star Wars was always bad".

Funnily enough the nearest comparison for Dragon Ball would probably be the Boo arc or GT, but rather than being looked on as examples of Dragon Ball always being bad they seem to have become more respected with time, probably because most people that trash Dragon Ball never truly seen it as some immaculate piece of art to begin with, and always saw it as just enjoyable junk.

Having grown up o the original trilogy, I would say that they're not great films, too. I think Star Wars in general isn't really great, outside of Andor. I think it tackles great themes, but whether they work as films or television series overall is, I would say, not at all true. It's a series that gets by a lot on childhood nostalgia and a limited pallette of experience with film and television.

The comparison to Dragon Ball is pretty apt in that you'll find people defending the sanctity of it, but ultimately it's a title that works best if you focus on individual pieces and not the whole.

[fadeddreams5]

Not necessarily a "thing" but more of a trend.

The "Super" era of Dragon Ball has introduced so much shitty writing that now it's becoming a common sentiment that "Dragon Ball always had bad writing" I've seen people say Super Saiyan was an asspull on par with Beast Gohan and downplay the effort Toriyama put in for 10 years straight during Dragon Ball's serialisation. All so modern Dragon Ball can look less embarrassing in comparison.

Uhm, Dragon Ball always had bad writing. There might be slightly more bad writing in Super, but are we seriously going to act like there was no bad writing in the Cell and Buu sagas?

If people want to talk about asspulls in DBZ, they bring up SSJ3, not SSJ1. You intentionally chose a bad example from the last saga of Dragon Ball that is generally agreed upon to be immaculate.

Step into the Cell and Buu sagas and you'll soon discover that people back in 2004-2010, before Super was the shining new punching bag, were far, far less compassionate to DBZ's writing faults.

How can this be a new trend when the Cell and Buu sagas were already getting criticized for their bad writing (rightfully so) long before Super? This is historical revisionism, plain and simple. I'm just going to post old threads from this forum

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I must thank Majin Buu for making two of these threads that you probably don't even remember. Those threads helped enlighten me about how fandoms work. There's so much nostalgia and rose-tinted goggles today when it comes to the Cell and Buu saga.

How enlightening it has been to reread these old threads. How thankful I am that the forum archived them, I suggest everyone read them. They contain everything: accusations that Buu is a lame villain for stealing his precessor's shtick of absorbing people, accusations that the Buu saga was just lazily thrown together because Toriyama lost his passion, accusations that the Buu saga was formulaic with people just getting new forms and fusing to make new toys, accusations of contradicting plot twists like Goku knowing a new form and yet never using it when he could've,

I mean, surely all these takes I reported ring a bell, yes? Times and takes never change, only punching bags do.

If people back in the 2000s were allowed to criticize the Cell and Buu sagas and say they had bad writing... why can't I? Why can't I say that Dragon Ball always had bad writing? Why must this position be mocked and ridiculed today as some kind of reactionary trend or whatever?

I don't understand why people in the 2000s could say that Dragon Ball has bad writing, but I can't in 2025.

I clicked those links, and almost all of them are in regards to the Buu saga. I've gone on record to say that arc is the granddaddy of "Modern DB," which is what inspired this thread 10 years ago.

I feel when people point out the "bad writing" of DBS, they are not referring to the same thing when they discuss the Cell saga. For example, the criticisms about the writing of the Cell saga boil down to really dumb character decisions in the plot itself, like Vegeta letting Cell go perfect, Krillin being a simp and not deactivating 18, Goku giving Cell a senzu bean, how out of character Gohan was to just stand there in panic while his friends were getting slaughtered by the Cell Jrs, etc. I've also read criticisms of Gohan's usage in the arc prior to the Cell Games. All of these arguments are made by adults overanalyzing a story made by a dude who admitted to having no attention to detail when it came to writing. Most DBZ fans acknowledge the flaws in the plot and dgaf because it was cool, consistent in what mattered, comparatively dark, and fun. It's a VERY small minority of DBZ fans that dislike this arc. And I do emphasize DBZ, not general DB fans, as they encompass the bulk of fans you hear talking shit about DBS.

With DBS, "bad writing" usually refers to creative and design choices many fans simply do not like. And most of this originates from the Buu saga. For example, Gohan not training, the SSJ transformation being relegated to a play thing by children, the tone shift that came with introducing a goofy villain and said kid SSJs, an oversaturation of transformations, etc. In DBS, you have a crap ton of recolor transformations, power scaling hell, tingly back sensations to become SSJs, Future Trunks with blue hair, Future Trunks' universe wiped out, Bardock not being DBZ's Bardock, weaker characters being as strong as the plot demands with off-screen training that is never elaborated on, Goku being a non-serious idiot almost all the time, and actual asspulls.

You mentioned SSJ3 being an asspull. It was, but only in the sense that it was unexpected. However, there was context to it: Goku had trained for 7 years in the afterlife, and if we take the filler into consideration, it was special training by a Kai that held a tournament to specifically train the winner. Additionally, SSJ3 was given a weakness Goku didn't consider because it was a form better suited while dead, there was a valid reason why he didn't use it against Vegeta, and it just looks EFFING COOL. In DBS, you have characters like Trunks getting angry and acquiring new forms with absolutely no explanation and lazy designs. In Daima, we're supposed to believe Goku just trained by himself off-screen for a few months to become a SSJ4, and then never used the form again. lol

So basically, "bad writing" in DBS = creative choices that retcon or have resulted in a change to the formula of the series pre-Buu, which don't bode well with fans of the Saiyan, Namek, and Cell sagas.

[Benjamin-Simons-91]

Super Dragon Ball Heroes, Resurrection 'F' and the Granolah Arc.

[kemuri07]

Yeah, there is a reason Dragon Ball is one of, if not the most beloved anime and manga series of all time, because, the original run, at least is a genuinely timeless, fun and endearing story.

Conversely, as with anything else it's immense popularity inspired a hipster mindset that its cool, in some circles to say Dragon Ball is bad, or always has been. Couldn't disagree more with either though.

We seen it with Star Wars, which was considered near perfect from 1977-1982, come 1983 Return of the Jedi (actually my favourite movie in the franchise) rolls around and was a letdown to some but still considered decent, although being the redheaded stepchild of the original trilogy became pointed to decades after when the prequels or Last Jedi got criticism to make a point that "Star Wars was always bad".

Funnily enough the nearest comparison for Dragon Ball would probably be the Boo arc or GT, but rather than being looked on as examples of Dragon Ball always being bad they seem to have become more respected with time, probably because most people that trash Dragon Ball never truly seen it as some immaculate piece of art to begin with, and always saw it as just enjoyable junk.

Having grown up o the original trilogy, I would say that they're not great films, too. I think Star Wars in general isn't really great, outside of Andor. I think it tackles great themes, but whether they work as films or television series overall is, I would say, not at all true. It's a series that gets by a lot on childhood nostalgia and a limited pallette of experience with film and television.

The comparison to Dragon Ball is pretty apt in that you'll find people defending the sanctity of it, but ultimately it's a title that works best if you focus on individual pieces and not the whole.

I don't really agree with this at all. Like, I'm sorry but claiming that Star Wars as a franchise is only considered "good" because of childhood nostalgia and "a limited pallet of experience with film and television" is not only laughably condescending and the kind of left twitter hot take (or I guess left bluesky hot take) that I would aggressively roll my eyes at, but also because it's one of the few statements I can positively say is objectively wrong. And I'm coming from this as someone who, frankly, finds Star Wars a frustrating experience because it has loads of ambition that it very rarely takes advantage of in service of the Skywalker show. And yes, that is very similar to how many people (myself included) view Dragon Ball.

With all of that said, I also very clearly understand why Star Wars continues to have the effect it does not just in Hollywood but in global cinema today. Because while, yes, the Heroes Journey of the main trilogy is not the most complicated thing in the world, it all works in service for the visual and thematic storytelling that are in display. That is what continues to capture the imagination of viewers and why it's often seen as highly influential among creators. And yeah you can say the exact same thing about Dragon Ball/Z. I've never bought into the idea that the only reason why people like Dragon Ball is because they saw it when they were kids and are viewing it in a nostalgic lens. And as I've mentioned before, looking at it as an adult that has watched tons of anime since then, I can absolutely appreciate why Dragon Ball is as popular as it is. At the heights of his powers, Toriyama was absolutely one of the best to ever do it.

[Goe]

First of all, I'm not bashing any of the new content. Okay, maybe a little. The point of this topic is to simply discuss what you've disliked about DBZ material that has been released in modern times (i.e. this is THE topic to vent!). It can even be game-related. Please don't flame others cause you disagree with them.

Examples:
* The Long Lost Brother - In a planet consisting of bloodthirsty warriors who knew nothing but fighting, there existed an exception: the son of King Vegeta himself, Tarble. Banished, instead of rightfully killed as any other saiyan would have been, Tarble, now married to a 'thing' arrives on Earth years later for some help. Vegeta, a character who would have likely blown him to bits not that long ago, greets him with only slight annoyance. A loving reunion. <3

* Rage Boost - With his wife slapped for being a word that rhymes with "itch," a furious Vegeta powers up in his SSJ state to do what no one has ever done before: become a SSJ3 without becoming a SSJ3 (or 2). All this time, Gohan's hidden powers were not special after all. R.I.P.

* The Original SSJ - After being "vaporized" by Frieza, Bardock is actually sent back in time to Planet Plant, which is occupied by creatures straight out of a Mario game. When one is harmed by Chilled, Frieza's ancestor, Bardock, a saiyan with a power level not worth bragging about, achieves the legend and becomes the first SSJ! In fact, legend states he is father to all saiyans. Praise the Bardock!

* A God Emerges - Completely overpowered by Beerus, even in his SSJ3 form, Goku is forced to ascend to an even greater state than a form that already draws out every bit of Ki his body can produce. But how can he do it?! Through...the power of friendship of course! In a ritual, 5 pure-hearted saiyans, including one who's killed billions of innocent people in the past, and an unborn fetus, give their love and energy to Goku, enabling him to become a Super Saiyan God. A form so powerful and fierce, it makes Goku look weaker. Looks can be deceiving as he is able to effortlessly defe--he loses the fight.

* Kal-El-Karrot - A long time ago, there existed a saiyan named Bardock. He was a ruthless warrior, and indifferent father, who obeyed all commands of mass genocide until, one day, he encountered extraterrestrial beings who cursed him with the power of foresight, which included visions of the imminent deaths of him and his loved ones. Plagued with fear, he tries to warn--wait a minute, wrong story. Let me start again: A long time ago, there was a saiyan named Bardock. He was a loving father who killed aliens--but only evil looking ones! Him, and his caring wife one day decide to transport their son, Kakarrot, to Earth because they want a better life for him. They embrace as they ponder over the future of their planet. Awww. :'D

* The Prodigy - Lord Frieza, an overlord feared for thousands of years, was alas slain by the very beings he feared the most. An appropriate death for a tyrant who held billions in bondage. Years later, he is brought back to life by some of the billions he held in bondage. They warn Frieza that his nemesis, Goku, has risen to become thousands of times stronger and has even defeated the legendary monster of terror, Majin Buu. But Frieza is not scared. He smiles, admitting that, all this time, he was a prodigy. In just 4 months of training, he will become a God because a greater God (who writes this stuff) has blessed him.

I agree with all, and I'll add:

*Freezer destroyed planet Vegeta because Beerus ordered it to him.
*A lot of new hair colors in SSJ transformations.
*Freezer allied with main heroes.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

*Freezer destroyed planet Vegeta because Beerus ordered it to him.

That was a translation error by Funimation. In the original Japanese version, Freeza had to get Beerus' OK to destroy the planet, Beerus didn't outright order it.

[fadeddreams5]

*Freezer destroyed planet Vegeta because Beerus ordered it to him.

That was a translation error by Funimation. In the original Japanese version, Freeza had to get Beerus' OK to destroy the planet, Beerus didn't outright order it.

That's still bad. lol.

Seems the cat is always present, except when Kid Buu was about to delete him from existence, which still doesn't make sense why he wasn't. I am convinced Toriyama forgot the other Kais existed until Toyotaro reminded him with his Moro arc.

[Noah]

Well, it's been a long while since I wanted to post on this thread about two things that are really bothering me in Modern DB:

No breathing room during the story: I remember reading posts from Gaffer Tape about the ToP arc in general, and it really makes sense when we compare it to how it was before. Remember when DB had moments where, even if the focus was on the main battle of the arc, the scenes would switch to what other characters were doing? I know a lot of those were fillers, but man, I really would’ve liked to split up the nonstop fighting in the Tournament of Power and see what Goten and Trunks were up to on the island where No. 17 is a park ranger. This also applies to DAIMA, because like, what’s the point of turning other characters back into kids if we only see them interact in two episodes at most? The show NEVER leaves the Demon World to show how Gohan and the others are dealing with this struggle.

There's no more effort to explain new stuff: remember when DB took the time to explain new stuff in the series, especially about the power levels of enemies and new transformations? Like when we had Super Trunks not understanding why his new form wasn’t enough to beat Perfect Cell, then the scene cuts to Goku using the same form and explaining to Gohan why it's not effective? We don’t have that ANYMORE! SSJ ‘Rage’ Trunks just happens, and no one ever addresses it, the technique he uses that's similar to the Genki Dama but with his sword? Same thing. To this day, we assume SSJBE Vegeta is just another form he got from training a lot. Unfortunately, DAIMA follows this trend, with not just Goku getting a transformation ‘thanks to’ Neva, but the characters barely reacting to it, no one questions what it's about, Vegeta just asks in the final episode, and Goku reveals it's a form he got just by JUST training a lot after defeating Majin Boo, and to me, that's almost like the direction of the show flipping off the audience who would have prefered a more detailed explanation. It’s just ridiculous!

[SupremeKai25]

Uhm, you literally cut the explanation, which he says right after.

That rift in the sky could either be a time warp to other dimensions, the past or the future (which is why in Xenoverse 2 he uses that time rift to bring movie villains into that timeline), or it could be a physical manifestation of the endless rage burning inside of him; Rage at the mortals who defy him and stain Creation.

That's a much, much better explanation than "I need 18 to become Perfect, I just vomited 18 so I'm no longer Perfect, oh wait I'm perfect again, whoops haha cells memory reading go brrr"

And if your argument is that it's bad writing Black didn't know what he did, once again I must point out that the bug man didn't know how he survived and got all that bonus crap and just attributed it to pure luck.

[fadeddreams5]

Uhm, you literally cut the explanation, which he says right after.

That rift in the sky could either be a time warp to other dimensions, the past or the future (which is why in Xenoverse 2 he uses that time rift to bring movie villains into that timeline), or it could be a physical manifestation of the endless rage burning inside of him; Rage at the mortals who defy him and stain Creation.

That's a much, much better explanation than "I need 18 to become Perfect, I just vomited 18 so I'm no longer Perfect, oh wait I'm perfect again, whoops haha cells memory reading go brrr"

And if your argument is that it's bad writing Black didn't know what he did, once again I must point out that the bug man didn't know how he survived and got all that bonus crap and just attributed it to pure luck.

I don't think his post was about that particular moment. Black's quote just aligns with how he feels about modern DB. Lol

As for Cell, it was convenient, but it makes sense he wouldn't understand his own design. Cell is practically a baby. His saiyan cells allowed him to evolve thanks to recovering from a near death experience. But yeah, being in his perfect form again without 18 was kinda weird. But going back to what Noah wrote, at least Cell explained in detail what happened.

[Noah]

I don't think his post was about that particular moment. Black's quote just aligns with how he feels about modern DB. Lol

Exactly lol

I didn't think I should explain something obvious as that, since I didn't even mention Goku Black's scythe in my post.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't think his post was about that particular moment. Black's quote just aligns with how he feels about modern DB. Lol

Exactly lol

I didn't think I should explain something obvious as that, since I didn't even mention Goku Black's scythe in my post.

Your post was not clear at all. Why even post that image, if you don't want me to talk about it?

Either way, doesn't matter. Your criticism of DBS characters getting asspulls is countered by the fact that DBZ characters also got asspulls. So many of them.

[Noah]

The post was not clear to someone obsessed like you, who only saw the image of your favorite arc and thought the post was just about that. And it's not even worth debating with someone who thought my post was about 'asspulls' — that already shows you didn’t even bother to read at all lol

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Your criticism of DBS characters getting asspulls is countered by the fact that DBZ characters also got asspulls. So many of them.

They were nowhere near as bad as they were in Super.

[GokuHater]

I don't think his post was about that particular moment. Black's quote just aligns with how he feels about modern DB. Lol

Exactly lol

I didn't think I should explain something obvious as that, since I didn't even mention Goku Black's scythe in my post.

Your post was not clear at all.

It was

[Koitsukai]

Well, it's been a long while since I wanted to post on this thread about two things that are really bothering me in Modern DB:

No breathing room during the story: I remember reading posts from Gaffer Tape about the ToP arc in general, and it really makes sense when we compare it to how it was before. Remember when DB had moments where, even if the focus was on the main battle of the arc, the scenes would switch to what other characters were doing? I know a lot of those were fillers, but man, I really would’ve liked to split up the nonstop fighting in the Tournament of Power and see what Goten and Trunks were up to on the island where No. 17 is a park ranger. This also applies to DAIMA, because like, what’s the point of turning other characters back into kids if we only see them interact in two episodes at most? The show NEVER leaves the Demon World to show how Gohan and the others are dealing with this struggle.

There's no more effort to explain new stuff: remember when DB took the time to explain new stuff in the series, especially about the power levels of enemies and new transformations? Like when we had Super Trunks not understanding why his new form wasn’t enough to beat Perfect Cell, then the scene cuts to Goku using the same form and explaining to Gohan why it's not effective? We don’t have that ANYMORE! SSJ ‘Rage’ Trunks just happens, and no one ever addresses it, the technique he uses that's similar to the Genki Dama but with his sword? Same thing. To this day, we assume SSJBE Vegeta is just another form he got from training a lot. Unfortunately, DAIMA follows this trend, with not just Goku getting a transformation ‘thanks to’ Neva, but the characters barely reacting to it, no one questions what it's about, Vegeta just asks in the final episode, and Goku reveals it's a form he got just by JUST training a lot after defeating Majin Boo, and to me, that's almost like the direction of the show flipping off the audience who would have prefered a more detailed explanation. It’s just ridiculous!

Agree on both items.

I don't think we needed to see Daima Kid Gohan fight... but fuck it, I was dying to just see him back to his child version interacting with Kid Videl. Was that so ludicrous? instead of 20 minutes of pew-pew with lame goons, how about a little glimpse of what was going on at Satan's house? or the two love birds having chocolate milk at Mt Paozu.
Or Roshi trying his new legs. Shit, Kid Gohan taking care of baby Goten and baby Trunks... that has more potential to be funny than having a shitty Ginyu Force 2.0 not even guarding the main door.

About the many forms being left unexplained, while probably not the reason why, I'd like to think SS4 was left unexplained as a nod (from Toriyama) to how DBS never explained anything at all.
I do feel the revival has been undermining the accomplishments of the original story. Now everybody has the power to oneshot Z, after training for a while, even though after decades they couldn't break their own limits.
SS4 is the greatest example... so Goku just needed to train a little more, on Earth, to turn the Buu arc into another Yo Son Goku Special, huh?

[Dbzfan94]

I don't think his post was about that particular moment. Black's quote just aligns with how he feels about modern DB. Lol

Exactly lol

I didn't think I should explain something obvious as that, since I didn't even mention Goku Black's scythe in my post.

Your post was not clear at all. Why even post that image, if you don't want me to talk about it?

Either way, doesn't matter. Your criticism of DBS characters getting asspulls is countered by the fact that DBZ characters also got asspulls. So many of them.

No offense, but do you even like Dragon Ball outside of the Goku Black arc? Every post I feel like you just criticize Z and any criticism towards Super you just say “well Z does this so”

[Vegeta th3 4th]

No offense, but do you even like Dragon Ball outside of the Goku Black arc? Every post I feel like you just criticize Z and any criticism towards Super you just say “well Z does this so”

It's not uncommon for Super's fans to try to make the classic series look bad in order to justify liking Super.