Gohan's total absence

[tonysoprano300]

I thought it was pretty obvious he was being ironic? Not everything has to be taken literally. Why can't Super ever have some light-hearted moments of comedy, like Vegeta making fun of Black for having Goku's face, without it getting over-analysed?

People online take Dragon Ball way, way too seriously.

Plus, are just ignoring when Vegeta pummelled Black for stealing Goku's body and showed his deep respect for his friend-rival?

He refused to do fusion and was only agreed after Trunks told him about the death of Future Bulma at the hands of Black. I don't think we can just ignore that part

That's also not the only point you brought up, but fine, I'll accept the moving goalpost.

What are you talking about lol, all of those points logically connect to each other. If Vegeta remarks that Black looking like Goku makes it more enjoyable to lay a beatdown on him then later he refuses to do fusion with Goku in that same story, the audience will conclude that he was being genuine.

My point is that if a characters actions align with their statements then how are we concluding that it was purely for comedic effect?

[SupremeKai25]

He refused to do fusion and was only agreed after Trunks told him about the death of Future Bulma at the hands of Black. I don't think we can just ignore that part

That's also not the only point you brought up, but fine, I'll accept the moving goalpost.

What are you talking about lol, all of those points logically connect to each other. If Vegeta remarks that Black looking like Goku makes it more enjoyable to lay a beatdown on him then later he refuses to do fusion with Goku in that same story, the audience will conclude that he was being genuine.

My point is that if a characters actions align with their statements then how are we concluding that it was purely for comedic effect?

He didn't refuse to do fusion with Goku. So that's just a lie.

[tonysoprano300]

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

[SupremeKai25]

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

[LoganForkHands73]

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

Where are the lies? Tony's description of the manga version of the scene is accurate, and Vegeta initially refuses fusion with Goku in both versions of the story. Gowasu's assurance that Potara Fusion only lasts one hour also plays a key role in Vegeta's eventual decision, even in the anime where Goku was much more eager from the get-go and Vegeta was less resistant to the idea.

To call Tony Soprano (da boss of this family!) a liar over this is sheer obstinance.

To be honest, I would generally appreciate it if my goofy little Gohan thread didn't get derailed with debates about completely different characters and tangential rants about Dragon Ball Super somehow being better than Dragon Ball Z, or whatever you want to talk about. Take it elsewhere, please.

[tonysoprano300]

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

.....here's the thing, I know that you understood what I meant when I said he refused because in my earlier comment I acknowledged he eventually agreed. So, what was the point of this? The highlighted part is what the conversation is about at its core(well actually, not really. It was a completely separate discussion about Gohan but if folks wanna challenge my assertions I'm always game). That Vegeta needing to be convinced in the first place is a reflection of the animosity towards Goku, if that was say Piccolo there would be no convincing necessary. He would just do it.

You're not talking to a DBZ truther, it's not a secret that I have criticized DBZ to hell and back on these forums. One of the longest arguments I got into on this site was about how I thought Vegeta's initial integration into the Dragon Team was ridiculous in retrospect and that his redemption arc in Boo saga was pretty weak. So what are we talking about?

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

To be honest, I would generally appreciate it if my goofy little Gohan thread didn't get derailed with debates about completely different characters and tangential rants about Dragon Ball Super somehow being better than Dragon Ball Z, or whatever you want to talk about. Take it elsewhere, please.

Yea my bad, I didn't anticipate it derailing like that lol. I didn't even think it was that hot of a take.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I think that Toriyama realized that Gohan is a fundamentally different character than Goku, and that this would require him to change his approach to how he wrote the series. By the Boo arc Toriyama was obviously burnt out and probably decided that he would rather go back to his comfort zone than commit himself to a new writing style when he wanted to end the book already.

[Peach]

I think that Toriyama realized that Gohan is a fundamentally different character than Goku, and that this would require him to change his approach to how he wrote the series. By the Boo arc Toriyama was obviously burnt out and probably decided that he would rather go back to his comfort zone than commit himself to a new writing style when he wanted to end the book already.

I'm sure the explanation is even simpler than that - Goku was easier to draw and is more popular.

In videos I've seen, the guy draws Goku in such a rhythm. It's crazy.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I'm sure the explanation is even simpler than that - Goku was easier to draw and is more popular.

In videos I've seen, the guy draws Goku in such a rhythm. It's crazy.

I doubt Gohan is much harder to draw considering it's just a different hairstyle though.
I always Toriyama's style from people who say everyone has the same face, but Gohan was literally stated to look similar to Goku, so he does have the same exact face.

[LoganForkHands73]

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

To be honest, I would generally appreciate it if my goofy little Gohan thread didn't get derailed with debates about completely different characters and tangential rants about Dragon Ball Super somehow being better than Dragon Ball Z, or whatever you want to talk about. Take it elsewhere, please.

Yea my bad, I didn't anticipate it derailing like that lol. I didn't even think it was that hot of a take.

Dw about it man, your original Vegeta point was relevant and not a hot take, but I’ve been round the block and I know *some people* just can’t help themselves from picking asinine arguments over nothing at all for sheer amusement.

[quote=BootyCheeksJohnson post_id=<a href="tel:1803956">1803956</a> time=<a href="tel:1747695828">1747695828</a> user_id=125919]
I think that Toriyama realized that Gohan is a fundamentally different character than Goku, and that this would require him to change his approach to how he wrote the series. By the Boo arc Toriyama was obviously burnt out and probably decided that he would rather go back to his comfort zone than commit himself to a new writing style when he wanted to end the book already.

I'm sure the explanation is even simpler than that - Goku was easier to draw and is more popular.

In videos I've seen, the guy draws Goku in such a rhythm. It's crazy.

I genuinely think this is part of it. I wonder if Toriyama just never found a Gohan design that truly clicked, hence why Gohan changes his appearance so drastically from one arc or project to the next. Even his more enduring designs (e.g. the mullet and mini Piccolo gi, the short hair bang and orange gi, etc) are not as singularly definitive as Goku’s. His style is usually very derivative of someone else’s.

When it seemed like Gohan was going to become the next protagonist, he started looking more and more like his father. But when Goku permanently came back into the spotlight, that left Gohan looking pretty redundant - I mean, look at that group shot of the Dragon Team in Daima’s opening. To the untrained observer, Gohan is just an exact clone of Goku, minus the wild hairdo. Toriyama at least made some fun design decisions with him in Super Hero by making him look like a handsome and in-shape but overworked and under-slept nerd.

[Saiya6Cit]

Maybe we just got it all wrong and Toriyama's real purpose was to show us how it does not matter if you are the stronger warrior in the universe, your children can still come out completely different to yourself and they could even be great dissapointments, but as a father you can't force them into anything because they are their own persona and they should take their own decisions in life?

I am not talking about Daima, but about end of Z. Because Trunks does not want to fight either. Vegeta had to threaten him with taking away his allowance, so that he would agree to participate in the tournament. As stated by some people through the years, it might be a result of the fact that they are not pure saiyans, in other words, their human blood interferes with their warrior desires.

Now from a franchise perspective and now that Toriyama is not around anymore, I think TOEI just wanted to play it safe and go "Goku&Vegeta" forever. Piccolo found his way in and honestly I am still surprised because of that. Gohan and others simply don't have enough fans. At least not enough as to give Gohan an mayor role in Daima.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Now that Toriyama is not around anymore, I think TOEI just wanted to play it safe and go "Goku&Vegeta" forever. Piccolo found his way in and honestly I am still surprised because of that.

Daima was written by Toriyama, who went on to state that it was the most he'd been involved with in awhile. I ado agree though that Toei is going to play things extra safe by likely just focusing on Goku and Vegeta, with the occasional appearance from the others. Personally though, I think it's time to move on from Goku and his friends. Wrap up Super with one more arc, then skip 200 years into the future like Online did and start over. There's just nothing more to say or do with these characters anymore.

[TobyS]

Toriyama's involvement was retroactive mostly, it could simply be he didn't intervene enough to undo Gohans omission.

As someone who wants more non goku and vegeta content, I do not mind Gohans non involvement here.

We know he fought high level powers in a childs body already, so he would not be hit by the kid nerf as much or at all. Which would fuck up the scaling.
Its also so soon after Boo he would still have ultimate and be way stronger than Goku and Vegeta in ultimate, and, hot take, would be stronger than ss4 Goku undermining it, especially if he could also go SS4 as he had a tail as a kid and has more potential than Goku.

There is also the issue of adults getting turned into kids and kids getting turned into babies, Gohans like what, late teens? He might have been a baby also. Better to just avoid the Gohan issue if you want to tell a pre god power story with Goku being the main fighter you have to omit Gohan. All this seemed obvious to me.