Gohan's total absence

[tonysoprano300]

I thought it was pretty obvious he was being ironic? Not everything has to be taken literally. Why can't Super ever have some light-hearted moments of comedy, like Vegeta making fun of Black for having Goku's face, without it getting over-analysed?

People online take Dragon Ball way, way too seriously.

Plus, are just ignoring when Vegeta pummelled Black for stealing Goku's body and showed his deep respect for his friend-rival?

He refused to do fusion and was only agreed after Trunks told him about the death of Future Bulma at the hands of Black. I don't think we can just ignore that part

That's also not the only point you brought up, but fine, I'll accept the moving goalpost.

What are you talking about lol, all of those points logically connect to each other. If Vegeta remarks that Black looking like Goku makes it more enjoyable to lay a beatdown on him then later he refuses to do fusion with Goku in that same story, the audience will conclude that he was being genuine.

My point is that if a characters actions align with their statements then how are we concluding that it was purely for comedic effect?

[SupremeKai25]

He refused to do fusion and was only agreed after Trunks told him about the death of Future Bulma at the hands of Black. I don't think we can just ignore that part

That's also not the only point you brought up, but fine, I'll accept the moving goalpost.

What are you talking about lol, all of those points logically connect to each other. If Vegeta remarks that Black looking like Goku makes it more enjoyable to lay a beatdown on him then later he refuses to do fusion with Goku in that same story, the audience will conclude that he was being genuine.

My point is that if a characters actions align with their statements then how are we concluding that it was purely for comedic effect?

He didn't refuse to do fusion with Goku. So that's just a lie.

[tonysoprano300]

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

[SupremeKai25]

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

[LoganForkHands73]

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

Where are the lies? Tony's description of the manga version of the scene is accurate, and Vegeta initially refuses fusion with Goku in both versions of the story. Gowasu's assurance that Potara Fusion only lasts one hour also plays a key role in Vegeta's eventual decision, even in the anime where Goku was much more eager from the get-go and Vegeta was less resistant to the idea.

To call Tony Soprano (da boss of this family!) a liar over this is sheer obstinance.

To be honest, I would generally appreciate it if my goofy little Gohan thread didn't get derailed with debates about completely different characters and tangential rants about Dragon Ball Super somehow being better than Dragon Ball Z, or whatever you want to talk about. Take it elsewhere, please.

[tonysoprano300]

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

.....here's the thing, I know that you understood what I meant when I said he refused because in my earlier comment I acknowledged he eventually agreed. So, what was the point of this? The highlighted part is what the conversation is about at its core(well actually, not really. It was a completely separate discussion about Gohan but if folks wanna challenge my assertions I'm always game). That Vegeta needing to be convinced in the first place is a reflection of the animosity towards Goku, if that was say Piccolo there would be no convincing necessary. He would just do it.

You're not talking to a DBZ truther, it's not a secret that I have criticized DBZ to hell and back on these forums. One of the longest arguments I got into on this site was about how I thought Vegeta's initial integration into the Dragon Team was ridiculous in retrospect and that his redemption arc in Boo saga was pretty weak. So what are we talking about?

Well anyone can read chapter 23 and decide for themselves I guess

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

To be honest, I would generally appreciate it if my goofy little Gohan thread didn't get derailed with debates about completely different characters and tangential rants about Dragon Ball Super somehow being better than Dragon Ball Z, or whatever you want to talk about. Take it elsewhere, please.

Yea my bad, I didn't anticipate it derailing like that lol. I didn't even think it was that hot of a take.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I think that Toriyama realized that Gohan is a fundamentally different character than Goku, and that this would require him to change his approach to how he wrote the series. By the Boo arc Toriyama was obviously burnt out and probably decided that he would rather go back to his comfort zone than commit himself to a new writing style when he wanted to end the book already.

[Peach]

I think that Toriyama realized that Gohan is a fundamentally different character than Goku, and that this would require him to change his approach to how he wrote the series. By the Boo arc Toriyama was obviously burnt out and probably decided that he would rather go back to his comfort zone than commit himself to a new writing style when he wanted to end the book already.

I'm sure the explanation is even simpler than that - Goku was easier to draw and is more popular.

In videos I've seen, the guy draws Goku in such a rhythm. It's crazy.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I'm sure the explanation is even simpler than that - Goku was easier to draw and is more popular.

In videos I've seen, the guy draws Goku in such a rhythm. It's crazy.

I doubt Gohan is much harder to draw considering it's just a different hairstyle though.
I always Toriyama's style from people who say everyone has the same face, but Gohan was literally stated to look similar to Goku, so he does have the same exact face.

[LoganForkHands73]

Chapter 23 of DBS:



Yeah this is just lying, pure and simple. He agreed to fuse. Just because he needed some convincing doesn't change that. He didn't destroy the Potara and nearly doom the universe like his dumbass self in the Buu saga.

I have never seen an anime or manga held to such an impossibly high standard like Dragon Ball Super. Now it's getting criticised because it showed Vegeta act stubbornly and he needed some convincing to fuse with his rival? But DBZ shows Vegeta and Goku literally doom the universe because they don't wanna fuse and it's all "Yes DBZ was peak, Super can never reach those heights."

The fact Vegeta agreed to fuse, UNLIKE IN THE FINAL SEGMENT BUU SAGA, is proof of Vegeta's character development. And btw, Vegeta never said he would stop being Goku's rival with that speech he made when Goku fought Kid Buu.

To be honest, I would generally appreciate it if my goofy little Gohan thread didn't get derailed with debates about completely different characters and tangential rants about Dragon Ball Super somehow being better than Dragon Ball Z, or whatever you want to talk about. Take it elsewhere, please.

Yea my bad, I didn't anticipate it derailing like that lol. I didn't even think it was that hot of a take.

Dw about it man, your original Vegeta point was relevant and not a hot take, but I’ve been round the block and I know *some people* just can’t help themselves from picking asinine arguments over nothing at all for sheer amusement.

[quote=BootyCheeksJohnson post_id=<a href="tel:1803956">1803956</a> time=<a href="tel:1747695828">1747695828</a> user_id=125919]
I think that Toriyama realized that Gohan is a fundamentally different character than Goku, and that this would require him to change his approach to how he wrote the series. By the Boo arc Toriyama was obviously burnt out and probably decided that he would rather go back to his comfort zone than commit himself to a new writing style when he wanted to end the book already.

I'm sure the explanation is even simpler than that - Goku was easier to draw and is more popular.

In videos I've seen, the guy draws Goku in such a rhythm. It's crazy.

I genuinely think this is part of it. I wonder if Toriyama just never found a Gohan design that truly clicked, hence why Gohan changes his appearance so drastically from one arc or project to the next. Even his more enduring designs (e.g. the mullet and mini Piccolo gi, the short hair bang and orange gi, etc) are not as singularly definitive as Goku’s. His style is usually very derivative of someone else’s.

When it seemed like Gohan was going to become the next protagonist, he started looking more and more like his father. But when Goku permanently came back into the spotlight, that left Gohan looking pretty redundant - I mean, look at that group shot of the Dragon Team in Daima’s opening. To the untrained observer, Gohan is just an exact clone of Goku, minus the wild hairdo. Toriyama at least made some fun design decisions with him in Super Hero by making him look like a handsome and in-shape but overworked and under-slept nerd.

[Saiya6Cit]

Maybe we just got it all wrong and Toriyama's real purpose was to show us how it does not matter if you are the stronger warrior in the universe, your children can still come out completely different to yourself and they could even be great dissapointments, but as a father you can't force them into anything because they are their own persona and they should take their own decisions in life?

I am not talking about Daima, but about end of Z. Because Trunks does not want to fight either. Vegeta had to threaten him with taking away his allowance, so that he would agree to participate in the tournament. As stated by some people through the years, it might be a result of the fact that they are not pure saiyans, in other words, their human blood interferes with their warrior desires.

Now from a franchise perspective and now that Toriyama is not around anymore, I think TOEI just wanted to play it safe and go "Goku&Vegeta" forever. Piccolo found his way in and honestly I am still surprised because of that. Gohan and others simply don't have enough fans. At least not enough as to give Gohan an mayor role in Daima.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Now that Toriyama is not around anymore, I think TOEI just wanted to play it safe and go "Goku&Vegeta" forever. Piccolo found his way in and honestly I am still surprised because of that.

Daima was written by Toriyama, who went on to state that it was the most he'd been involved with in awhile. I ado agree though that Toei is going to play things extra safe by likely just focusing on Goku and Vegeta, with the occasional appearance from the others. Personally though, I think it's time to move on from Goku and his friends. Wrap up Super with one more arc, then skip 200 years into the future like Online did and start over. There's just nothing more to say or do with these characters anymore.

[TobyS]

Toriyama's involvement was retroactive mostly, it could simply be he didn't intervene enough to undo Gohans omission.

As someone who wants more non goku and vegeta content, I do not mind Gohans non involvement here.

We know he fought high level powers in a childs body already, so he would not be hit by the kid nerf as much or at all. Which would fuck up the scaling.
Its also so soon after Boo he would still have ultimate and be way stronger than Goku and Vegeta in ultimate, and, hot take, would be stronger than ss4 Goku undermining it, especially if he could also go SS4 as he had a tail as a kid and has more potential than Goku.

There is also the issue of adults getting turned into kids and kids getting turned into babies, Gohans like what, late teens? He might have been a baby also. Better to just avoid the Gohan issue if you want to tell a pre god power story with Goku being the main fighter you have to omit Gohan. All this seemed obvious to me.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Its also so soon after Boo he would still have ultimate and be way stronger than Goku and Vegeta in ultimate, and, hot take, would be stronger than ss4 Goku undermining it, especially if he could also go SS4 as he had a tail as a kid and has more potential than Goku.

Daima seemingly took place 9 months after the fight with Buu, 9 months in which Goku and Vegeta were training daily while Gohan likely did nothing. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Goku and Vegeta as Ssj3s were stronger than Ultimate Gohan, although maybe just slightly. Ssj4 is in a league of its own; no one was even close to that.

[TobyS]

Its also so soon after Boo he would still have ultimate and be way stronger than Goku and Vegeta in ultimate, and, hot take, would be stronger than ss4 Goku undermining it, especially if he could also go SS4 as he had a tail as a kid and has more potential than Goku.

Daima seemingly took place 9 months after the fight with Buu, 9 months in which Goku and Vegeta were training daily while Gohan likely did nothing. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Goku and Vegeta as Ssj3s were stronger than Ultimate Gohan, although maybe just slightly. Ssj4 is in a league of its own; no one was even close to that.

Yeah it's a huge fucking stretch. Ss2 Goku barely surpassed cell games ss2 gohan in 7 years of uninterrupted heaven training. Ss3 goku is piss scared of super boo and ultimate gohan thrashes him easily. Gohan is stronger than ss3 gotenks post who's 8 times stronger than ss1 gotenks who's way stronger than pre chamber gotenks who's equal or slightly greater than ss3 goku.

Goku aint getting shit done on earth in 9 months with family obligations.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Yeah it's a huge fucking stretch. Ss2 Goku barely surpassed cell games ss2 gohan in 7 years of uninterrupted heaven training. Ss3 goku is piss scared of super boo and ultimate gohan thrashes him easily. Gohan is stronger than ss3 gotenks post who's 8 times stronger than ss1 gotenks who's way stronger than pre chamber gotenks who's equal or slightly greater than ss3 goku.

Goku aint getting shit done on earth in 9 months with family obligations.

It took Goku 7 years to reach Ssj3, while Gotenks reached it in less than 2 weeks and Vegeta in less than a year. We've seen in DB time and again that reaching something for the first time takes awhile, but once other characters know about the existence of that power, they take significantly less time to reach the same level. Following the fight with Kid Buu, Goku and Vegeta knew exactly what kind of power Gohan possessed, meaning that they'd know exactly what kind of training and for how long they'd have to do it in order to reach said power. Considering Goku got strong enough to reach another Ssj level entirely, I don't see how it's unreasonable to assume he surpassed Gohan at that point. Vegeta had a better handle on Ssj3 during Daima than Goku did against Buu's various forms, so even if he may not be exactly on Gohan's level yet, he's definitely not too far behind either.

[TobyS]

Yeah it's a huge fucking stretch. Ss2 Goku barely surpassed cell games ss2 gohan in 7 years of uninterrupted heaven training. Ss3 goku is piss scared of super boo and ultimate gohan thrashes him easily. Gohan is stronger than ss3 gotenks post who's 8 times stronger than ss1 gotenks who's way stronger than pre chamber gotenks who's equal or slightly greater than ss3 goku.

Goku aint getting shit done on earth in 9 months with family obligations.

It took Goku 7 years to reach Ssj3, while Gotenks reached it in less than 2 weeks and Vegeta in less than a year. We've seen in DB time and again that reaching something for the first time takes awhile, but once other characters know about the existence of that power, they take significantly less time to reach the same level. Following the fight with Kid Buu, Goku and Vegeta knew exactly what kind of power Gohan possessed, meaning that they'd know exactly what kind of training and for how long they'd have to do it in order to reach said power. Considering Goku got strong enough to reach another Ssj level entirely, I don't see how it's unreasonable to assume he surpassed Gohan at that point. Vegeta had a better handle on Ssj3 during Daima than Goku did against Buu's various forms, so even if he may not be exactly on Gohan's level yet, he's definitely not too far behind either.

They knew how strong ss2 gohan was and it still took them 7 years. Goku isn't getting like 100 times stronger training between farming.
In fact going for SS4, much like ss3 is the only way he *is* going to grow significantly. And I'm of the camp that he can't do it without Nevahs buffs, hence why he said "he wasn't sure it would work" and why he says "right now this is my highest form" in ss3 to Beerus.

We also don't know the multiplier. If we disregard the toei bullshit of saiyans overperforming in base and base outperforming kid ss4 which makes no sense, we still don't know how Goku compares to Gohan. I'm of the camp ultimate Gohan is stronger than ss4 Goku as it makes non godly transforming obsolete and draws potential out (of which Gohan has more than Goku).

We don't know how instantly Gohan stopped training but he still had Ultimate in BOG and only lost it by ROF

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I'm of the camp that he can't do it without Nevahs buffs, hence why he said "he wasn't sure it would work"

We saw him do it without Neva's magic after being turned into an adult. As for him saying he wasn't sure it'd work, that was him clarifying that he discovered the form sometime before going to the demon realm, but didn't know how to access it before Neva unlocked it for him. If Goku couldn't access it anymore for whatever reason, they would've said so like how Super's anime made it clear at the end that Goku couldn't use Ultra Instinct whenever he wanted.

and why he says "right now this is my highest form" in ss3 to Beerus.

Daima is clearly not connected to Battle of Gods, so I don't know why this is relevant.

We don't know how instantly Gohan stopped training but he still had Ultimate in BOG and only lost it by ROF.

Same as above, neither movie is connected to Daima.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How is Goku > Gohan a stretch when it's literally the first thing we hear in the show opening? We're told this ad nauseam for like, 20 episodes.

Spoiler:

[dragonballhero]

Toriyama's involvement was retroactive mostly, it could simply be he didn't intervene enough to undo Gohans omission.

As someone who wants more non goku and vegeta content, I do not mind Gohans non involvement here.

We know he fought high level powers in a childs body already, so he would not be hit by the kid nerf as much or at all. Which would fuck up the scaling.
Its also so soon after Boo he would still have ultimate and be way stronger than Goku and Vegeta in ultimate, and, hot take, would be stronger than ss4 Goku undermining it, especially if he could also go SS4 as he had a tail as a kid and has more potential than Goku.

There is also the issue of adults getting turned into kids and kids getting turned into babies, Gohans like what, late teens? He might have been a baby also. Better to just avoid the Gohan issue if you want to tell a pre god power story with Goku being the main fighter you have to omit Gohan. All this seemed obvious to me.

Honestly, this was my EXACT thought process as to why Gohan wasn't featured in Daima. Heck, this is even part of why I think Trunks-Prime and Goten got de-aged into straight-up infants. Given how much the series glazes the Saiyan hybrids as all-powerful compared to their full-blooded counterparts, I imagine that they'd likely blitz through a lot of what the Demon Realm had to offer anyway.

In regards to this thread's main topic though, I've never really had much issue with Gohan not being a big focus. As the OP hypothesized, the stories Toriyama wanted to write just don't fit Gohan and as Vegeta th3 4th mentioned, it's not as though DB as a whole was supposed to continue past Majin Buu, so of course Gohan would be a character who would suffer from this issue of having to be brought back into action somehow.

Personally speaking, Super Hero fully proved to me that DB should just... stop trying with Gohan. Like, it's clear that forcing him to take the lead just won't work. For what it's worth, I myself would have enjoyed S.H. WAY more, if PICCOLO was the lead as Toriyama intended.

On a similar note, if DB ever decides to shift its focus for whatever reason... well, Pan IS right there if they ever need someone with Goku's drive for battle.