Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[angeldreamZ004]

Yeah I think the "God-Like" term is the most appropriate way to refer to it as well, it explains the "hybrid" visual with physical appearance not changing but the aura does, and being able to sense "half-ki" only, not the full extent.
After the 2015 movie, I think the closest we get to that as a visual indicator, is with SSJ1. In the ToP and Broly movie we see Goku and Vegeta using SSJ1 power without transforming. Basically "SSJ1-Like power"
(Which you could also use as a in-universe explanation for the Toei original Black Haired SSJ1)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So SSJG never left the franchise. In RoF, base Goku being allowed to fight Final Form Freeza was because of that god power boost from BoG. Which backs up Toriyama's point that Goku does not "need" to transform into Red after absorbing it's power. Not that he can't turn into Red hair. Therefore if Goku can be sensed in base and blond during Bog and RoF then there is no God Ki and the two base is just that a non existent theory.

Problem is, the anime and the manga had completely different takes on it. In the anime SSJ Goku wasn't any weaker than his SSJG self, and went on to become even stronger. In the manga Goku never lost the form until the fight was over.

[angeldreamZ004]

That is for the animated Beerus arc only (all of them, Movie, Old Anime, New Anime too unless the trailers are tricking us)

Once we arrive at the Golden Freeza arc, and see Base Goku struggling against Final Form Freeza, the TV anime is given a status that is no longer the same as the one seen in the original movie versions of those arcs, but the same status of the manga.

That is only further exposed with Goku using SSJG again in the ToP, making it equal to the manga, which has the same concept.
Throughout the entire anime too after the Beerus arc we see Goku having to transform against characters who clearly aren't supposed to be SSJG level.

[Hugo Boss]

Throughout the entire anime too after the Beerus arc we see Goku having to transform against characters who clearly aren't supposed to be SSJG level.

Exactly. Unless we are admitting that a bunch of over 30 characters in those universes can compare to the gods, not to mention even Krillin himself, I don’t think Goku’s base form carried that power through all of Super continuity, at least not until his fight with Moro or Broly in Super Hero.

I can totally understand the reason behind Goku surpassing his golden Super Saiyan forms through experiencing divine power. I don’t think it’s hard to justify it, considering Whis was not letting them use Super Saiyan in their training in order to get them to such achievement. It’s also because of that that Goku’s Base and Super Saiyan evolved. The issue is mostly what came after Golden Freeza and the return of the old forms that demanded a rework in the power level structure of Saiyan transformations to accomodate the next developments. The “two-base” theory was basically a fanon attempt to rationalize this subtle rework by suggesting the Saiyans could swiftly change from “normal” to “God-like” Base to suit plot necessity. Since it was never confirmed they were doing that on purpose, it lost traction and I think most people believe it’s just a minor inconsistency added to the list of Super inconsistencies lot.

By the way, I guess Base Goku and Vegeta in Super Hero surpassing the level of a full-powered Super Saiyan in Cell Games might be possible, considering they had Broly as their training partner for a good while. I just don’t see that being possible in Zamasu arc, for example, given that Goku and Trunks’ Super Saiyan forms were still not stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan.

[Koitsukai]

I always assumed Goku ends Z being as strong as Buu since he fights its reencarnation, but it's not really clear how strong Uub is.

With that in mind, even if Uub isn't that strong just yet, SS2 tier in base seems legit.

[Skar]

Exactly. Unless we are admitting that a bunch of over 30 characters in those universes can compare to the gods, not to mention even Krillin himself, I don’t think Goku’s base form carried that power through all of Super continuity, at least not until his fight with Moro or Broly in Super Hero.

I wonder if the remake is going leave out Goku absorbing SSJG like the manga did. That's where the confusion came from when the original forms and SSJG reappeared in the anime. Some scenes implied a regular base while others implied Saiyan beyond God like against SSJ3 Gotenks. A lot of those were anime only scenes so they might be cut too.

[Hugo Boss]

I wonder if the remake is going leave out Goku absorbing SSJG like the manga did. That's where the confusion came from when the original forms and SSJG reappeared in the anime. Some scenes implied a regular base while others implied Saiyan beyond God like against SSJ3 Gotenks. A lot of those were anime only scenes so they might be cut too.

According to the recent Super Gekitou trailer, Goku will fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan after SSG runs out of time, so it seems this plot point remains. And it makes sense that this is being kept, because Toriyama specifically outlined it as such in the Battle of Gods movie and reiterated it in interview. This follows the logic that this version of Super is being marketed as more faithful to Toriyama’s vision.

I always assumed Goku ends Z being as strong as Buu since he fights its reencarnation, but it's not really clear how strong Uub is.

With that in mind, even if Uub isn't that strong just yet, SS2 tier in base seems legit.

I think the general message of Oob is that most of his potential was still locked, which prompted Goku to suggest training him, so that he could have the match he was expecting. That said, it’s pure guess, since their fight wasn’t that much revealing, but I don’t think Oob could challenge Freeza or Cell with that level of movements. It didn’t look like Goku was at a pinch of losing either.

[Skar]

According to the recent Super Gekitou trailer, Goku will fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan after SSG runs out of time, so it seems this plot point remains. And it makes sense that this is being kept, because Toriyama specifically outlined it as such in the Battle of Gods movie and reiterated it in interview. This follows the logic that this version of Super is being marketed as more faithful to Toriyama’s vision.

I think going by the movies only that Goku using SSJ against Beerus was trying to tap into SSJG again. In RoF it was just Saiyan Beyond God and Blue which was just SSJ1 + SSJG. In Broly, Goku uses base, SSJ, and then SSJG so I think the Saiyan Beyond God and God ki powered SSJ didn't apply anymore.

[Miracles]

It's just a powered up version of SSJ [All his modes] after making SSJG another form of Goku's. Nothing more. It is and was never as strong as or stronger than Red.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I always assumed Goku ends Z being as strong as Buu since he fights its reencarnation, but it's not really clear how strong Uub is.

With that in mind, even if Uub isn't that strong just yet, SS2 tier in base seems legit.

Agreed, and the smoking gun is that Goku says Oob is amazing as expected, but couldn’t control his power.

With that in mind, Goku surpassing Gohan by the time of BoG isn’t that outrageous (Though surpassing him by Daima is).

It's just a powered up version of SSJ [All his modes] after making SSJG another form of Goku's. Nothing more. It is and was never as strong as or stronger than Red.

[Mr Baggins]

With that in mind, Goku surpassing Gohan by the time of BoG isn’t that outrageous (Though surpassing him by Daima is).

Ehh, you've got this backwards. BoG Goku isn't really implied to have gotten stronger than Buu Goku in any meaningful way prior to his God boost, especially given Beerus's comments. If SS3 Goku is stronger than Gohan, it's actually way more likely that Gohan would have gotten weaker by then.

Daima is more believable since the final episode distinctly suggests adult Goku had the Super Saiyan 4 transformation the whole time. And while there's never been a direct comparison between SS4 Goku and (Buu arc) Ultimate Gohan, it's easy peasy to see the former being portrayed as the better of the two.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ehh, you've got this backwards. BoG Goku isn't really implied to have gotten stronger than Buu Goku in any meaningful way prior to his God boost, especially given Beerus's comments. If SS3 Goku is stronger than Gohan, it's actually way more likely that Gohan would have gotten weaker by then.

Daima is more believable since the final episode distinctly suggests adult Goku had the Super Saiyan 4 transformation the whole time. And while there's never been a direct comparison between SS4 Goku and (Buu arc) Ultimate Gohan, it's easy peasy to see the former being portrayed as the better of the two.

What comments? Beerus is specifically only interest in Goku and doesn’t even care about Gotenks and Gohan. Even Vegeta was more entertaining (though I doubt that Vegeta is stronger than the half bloods).

Key words here: Any meaningful way. I think the series tends to downplay how the significant the power difference should be. Every single post Boo Saga story puts Goku over Gohan, and in an interview soon after the Boo Saga ended Toriyama said Goku is “The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!”. It’s a generic line, but it shows Gohan being the strongest in the universe was never supposed to be the status quo.

Daima specifically hammers us over the head with the narrator calling Goku the strongest every time in the intro. Kaioshin says it too in an early episode. Granted that Daima isn’t canon, but it shows Goku has room to improve.

As far as BoG goes, it recently came to my attention that Toriyama has said he chose a time period when everyone was at their peak. That kills the whole “Gohan was rusty” theory. At worst they met in the middle with Goku getting stronger while Gohan got weaker (And Gotenks probably stayed the same).

[Koitsukai]

I think the only way to make sense of it is accepting Gohan being the strongest is, like the Granny arc said about being the strongest, fleeting. It's a plant that needs to be watered, it's not a magic pill that lasts forever. And Gohan is known for not doing that, in Z, in GT, in DBS... the guy has other interests.

Gohan didn't water his plant post Buu, Goku did. This is all out of universe, probably due to Toriyama wanting to tell more stories about his main guy who was left as the 2nd strongest in the original run... some course-correction without really spelling it out. But we can infer all of this just by the characterizations, one trains, the other one hates to... one is now stronger than the other... so the weaker guy became stronger than ever before just by training with Kaiosama, getting more gains than ever, or the stronger one slacked off once again and dropped down a few levels, sort of abdicated and the crown went to the second best.

About Akira wanting to go back to a time when they were all at their peak, it clearly applied to the saiyans, they were the only ones who were given something to do in the revival, even in BoG where the non-saiyans are treated as if they were all the same, whether it's Gotenks or Tenshinhan.

In Daima everything is far-fetched, Goku has surpassed Gohan in less time than in DBS and has unlocked a new, weirder form, training on his own, much faster than he did SS3 (training with everybody that has ever died)

[Mr Baggins]

What comments? Beerus is specifically only interest in Goku and doesn’t even care about Gotenks and Gohan. Even Vegeta was more entertaining (though I doubt that Vegeta is stronger than the half bloods).

Well, comparing Namek Frieza favorably to base Goku is the main culprit. You can extrapolate that to SS3 and safely assume Goku's gains weren't so significant he was leaping over Ultimate Gohan at his peak or anything.

Not definitive proof on my part, but surely a reason to Press X to Doubt.

With that said, I don't dispute it could be a matter of Goku gradually growing stronger, Gohan gradually growing weaker, both characters eventually meeting somewhere in the middle, then Goku pulling ahead by a bit. It's either that or Toriyama just forgetting how strong Gohan was supposed to be.

In Daima everything is far-fetched, Goku has surpassed Gohan in less time than in DBS and has unlocked a new, weirder form, training on his own, much faster than he did SS3 (training with everybody that has ever died)

Understandably, it is a damn big feat for Goku to achieve another successor transformation in record time. But wilder things have happened, and SS4 itself putting him over Ultimate Gohan certainly isn't all that far-fetched.

[dbgtFO]

Every single post Boo Saga story puts Goku over Gohan, and in an interview soon after the Boo Saga ended Toriyama said Goku is “The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!”. It’s a generic line, but it shows Gohan being the strongest in the universe was never supposed to be the status quo.

Toriyama never said that.
That was a comment left by whoever was formatting the interview.
You can tell by the other ridiculous level of blatant posturing this statement is.
It's textbook marketing strategy, not a reasonable statement.

[Skar]

I think Gotenks and Gohan were weaker by BoG. Gotenks only used SSJ1 and Gohan was originally drawn with blonde hair. They changed his hair color later but it seemed like the battle was written with him being only in SSJ1 since he lost faster than Good Buu and Vegeta. It doesn't make as much sense he remained at his peak Buu saga power in the four years between Buu saga and BoG then quickly loses Ultimate and can barely turn SSJ1 in RoF a year after BoG.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the only way to make sense of it is accepting Gohan being the strongest is, like the Granny arc said about being the strongest, fleeting. It's a plant that needs to be watered, it's not a magic pill that lasts forever. And Gohan is known for not doing that, in Z, in GT, in DBS... the guy has other interests.

Gohan didn't water his plant post Buu, Goku did. This is all out of universe, probably due to Toriyama wanting to tell more stories about his main guy who was left as the 2nd strongest in the original run... some course-correction without really spelling it out. But we can infer all of this just by the characterizations, one trains, the other one hates to... one is now stronger than the other... so the weaker guy became stronger than ever before just by training with Kaiosama, getting more gains than ever, or the stronger one slacked off once again and dropped down a few levels, sort of abdicated and the crown went to the second best.

About Akira wanting to go back to a time when they were all at their peak, it clearly applied to the saiyans, they were the only ones who were given something to do in the revival, even in BoG where the non-saiyans are treated as if they were all the same, whether it's Gotenks or Tenshinhan.

In Daima everything is far-fetched, Goku has surpassed Gohan in less time than in DBS and has unlocked a new, weirder form, training on his own, much faster than he did SS3 (training with everybody that has ever died)

I get your point, but ironically the theme in the Granolah revolves around how everyone is getting stronger all the time and limits are just temporary.

Something changed post Boo. Goku was determinated to surpass Boo and by the original EoZ he was Majin Boo level in base. I think a 10x boost in 4 years (or maybe less if you don’t think SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku) is fine considering that progression. I don’t really care whether Goku got 10x stronger or just 2x, the point is that he closed this gap that Toriyama probably didn’t notice was supposed to be massive.

There’s this theory that something changed in Goku and Vegeta after the fusion, that it either gave them more potential or even made them stronger right after splittimg (In the case of folks who think Kid Boo > Everyone). I’m not really fond of it, but some people really need explanations as to how Goku broke through his Boo Saga limit with normal training and are satisfied with this.

Well, comparing Namek Frieza favorably to base Goku is the main culprit. You can extrapolate that to SS3 and safely assume Goku's gains weren't so significant he was leaping over Ultimate Gohan at his peak or anything.

Not definitive proof on my part, but surely a reason to Press X to Doubt.

With that said, I don't dispute it could be a matter of Goku gradually growing stronger, Gohan gradually growing weaker, both characters eventually meeting somewhere in the middle, then Goku pulling ahead by a bit. It's either that or Toriyama just forgetting how strong Gohan was supposed to be.

We don’t know how exactly Goku compared to Freeza. There could be some room for growth here. And that’s not even getting into the validity of that statement (which is a debate I’m tired of and would rather not get into).

Toriyama revisited the manga when he wrote the script for BoG, so I think he definitely remembered that Goku was bottom of the top 3. He probably just didn’t think the gap was so enormous that Goku wouldn’t catch up eventually. And I understand him - the reason people think the gap is gigantic is because of SSJ Gotenks supposedly being stronger than Fat Boo, which is easy to forget.

Toriyama never said that.
That was a comment left by whoever was formatting the interview.
You can tell by the other ridiculous level of blatant posturing this statement is.
It's textbook marketing strategy, not a reasonable statement.

It was a Q&A with the man himself.

Out of all your characters, which one is the most (blank)?
Cool: Goku
“I think it’s Goku.” The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

I don’t see any posturing here. He’s just highlighting a very simple logic of a very simple story - the MC is the strongest. Gohan was only the strongest when he was trying to be the MC.

I think Gotenks and Gohan were weaker by BoG. Gotenks only used SSJ1 and Gohan was originally drawn with blonde hair. They changed his hair color later but it seemed like the battle was written with him being only in SSJ1 since he lost faster than Good Buu and Vegeta. It doesn't make as much sense he remained at his peak Buu saga power in the four years between Buu saga and BoG then quickly loses Ultimate and can barely turn SSJ1 in RoF a year after BoG.

Gohan being a SSJ in BoG is a nagging myth that needs to die. It was an animation error and never meant to be in the script - As I pointed out before, everyone was meant to be at their best for the movie.

His RoF power loss seems to be from the top down - He maintains most of his base power, but struggles with transformations.

I remember some people theorizing SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta > (Rusty) Ultimate Gohan in the movie because that’s the order they go. Vegeta puts up the best fight but that’s probably a skill thing (Not even Goku fought that well). Interestingly, the anime has Gotenks not even transform and Gohan goes last, with a lot of drama over his defeat.

However, the manga has SSJ3 Gotenks fight Beerus and not impress the cat in the slightiest. I think most people agree that’s the definitive version of the story.

[Mr Baggins]

We don’t know how exactly Goku compared to Freeza.

Doesn't matter. That's a pedantic argument.

Beerus assessed base Goku and thought he didn't measure up to Frieza; that much is clear-cut, and I don't really care if people still have a problem with it. If he's still not stronger than Frieza by the time of the movie, there's more than sufficient reason to doubt his SS3 form being stronger than Gohan at his peak.

As others in this thread have been telling you, it's more likely that Gohan just got weaker over time. It doesn't make any sense that he would slack off for all this time and only suddenly experience a drastic decrease in power at some point between BoG and RF.

Also, this doesn't even contradict the stuff you keep bringing up about Goku being the best by Super's continuity. Of course he's the best! Gohan didn't water his garden.

[Skar]

Gohan being a SSJ in BoG is a nagging myth that needs to die. It was an animation error and never meant to be in the script - As I pointed out before, everyone was meant to be at their best for the movie.

His RoF power loss seems to be from the top down - He maintains most of his base power, but struggles with transformations.

I remember some people theorizing SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta > (Rusty) Ultimate Gohan in the movie because that’s the order they go. Vegeta puts up the best fight but that’s probably a skill thing (Not even Goku fought that well). Interestingly, the anime has Gotenks not even transform and Gohan goes last, with a lot of drama over his defeat.

However, the manga has SSJ3 Gotenks fight Beerus and not impress the cat in the slightiest. I think most people agree that’s the definitive version of the story.

In the Buu saga, it made clear when Goku and Vegeta surpassed Cell Games Gohan, previous strongest character, only when both fully powered up in SSJ2. BoG treats Goku as the strongest without any mention of surpassing the strongest of the previous saga.

I don't know which is the definitive version but Toriyama wrote the entire script for BoG movie. Gotenks and Gohan losing power since the Buu saga fits with how Gohan lost power between the Cell and Buu sagas by slacking off. It still applied to RoF a year later since Gohan needed SSJ against a henchmen that Piccolo struggled against implying base Gohan couldn't have won.

Gotenks was only shown using SSJ3 in anime or manga exclusive scenes. The next time we see him appear in something we know Toriyama wrote was Super Hero where they were so rusty they messed up on the fusion. It's consistent with their EoZ depiction of losing interest in training and forced to join the tournament which is only a year or two after EoZ.

[Koitsukai]

Don't want to derail this, but the Freeza-Goku quote from BoG has been scrutinized like if we were trying to make sense of newly discovered centuries-old texts found on an Egyptian wall.
If that line was even conceived it's because Akira thought it was true.

And I think it works as a boundary for the characters, a baseline to see where they are at that moment in time. Since we don't usually get many of those, I'd cherish it instead of doubting it, because then we would be dragonballsplaining dragonball to its very author.