Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

But since you mentioned it, Daima throws all this logic in the bin. The characters are as strong as they're needed to be and "they trained" is enough of an excuse.

Daima follows the same logic as Goku introducing Super Saiyan 3. The Saiyans did some intense training of some kind in the lead-up to the story, and then we're shown the results of that training via new transformations. No pointless ambiguity about where they stand, no baseless assumptions about these random power boosts they were never remotely implied to have.

That's the status quo. They're not just needed to "make advancement to the plot", their entire purpose hinges on tracking the Saiyans' milestones; they have no practical narrative function otherwise. And on the off chance there's a significant gain without a new form, the story provides a reason for it.

I'm also talking specifically about modern DB's main characters, Goku and Vegeta. Gohan and Frieza operate completely differently because their absurd potential and growth is their whole gimmick. It's yet another reason you'll never see Goku and Vegeta magically show up much stronger without something new to show for it.

No idea why you're bringing Zenkais since that's a completely separate thing from training. And Goku made quite an improvement in the Rosat with basic SSJ during the Cell Saga. He didn't unlock a new form to fight Cell.

1. Zenkais are inextricably tied to the Saiyans' natural growth. They're just a quicker way to exploit what they could already gain through training, which is why Trunks points out it won't work anymore because Goku and Vegeta reached their physical limit.

I brought them up precisely because they're not a completely separate thing at all.

2. Goku used a new methodology with Super Saiyan to improve the form and fight Cell. There's a reason most people and even the guides consider it its own variant.

Toriyama just didn't feel he had to give Goku anything new to make him stronger than Gohan. It's just how things should be.

Yeah, because Toriyama felt that Gohan should become weaker to make this happen. Recurrently. Since Babidi's ship. There's no "should be" with this, it's how things consistently were from Buu through Super.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But since you mentioned it, Daima throws all this logic in the bin. The characters are as strong as they're needed to be and "they trained" is enough of an excuse.

Daima follows the same logic as Goku introducing Super Saiyan 3. The Saiyans did some intense training of some kind in the lead-up to the story, and then we're shown the results of that training via new transformations. No pointless ambiguity about where they stand, no baseless assumptions about these random power boosts they were never remotely implied to have.

That's the status quo. They're not just needed to "make advancement to the plot", their entire purpose hinges on tracking the Saiyans' milestones; they have no practical narrative function otherwise. And on the off chance there's a significant gain without a new form, the story provides a reason for it.

I'm also talking specifically about modern DB's main characters, Goku and Vegeta. Gohan and Frieza operate completely differently because their absurd potential and growth is their whole gimmick. It's yet another reason you'll never see Goku and Vegeta magically show up much stronger without something new to show for it.

No idea why you're bringing Zenkais since that's a completely separate thing from training. And Goku made quite an improvement in the Rosat with basic SSJ during the Cell Saga. He didn't unlock a new form to fight Cell.

1. Zenkais are inextricably tied to the Saiyans' natural growth. They're just a quicker way to exploit what they could already gain through training, which is why Trunks points out it won't work anymore because Goku and Vegeta reached their physical limit.

I brought them up precisely because they're not a completely separate thing at all.

2. Goku used a new methodology with Super Saiyan to improve the form and fight Cell. There's a reason most people and even the guides consider it its own variant.

Toriyama just didn't feel he had to give Goku anything new to make him stronger than Gohan. It's just how things should be.

Yeah, because Toriyama felt that Gohan should become weaker to make this happen. Recurrently. Since Babidi's ship. There's no "should be" with this, it's how things consistently were from Buu through Super.

On second thought, Daima really doesn’t contradict anything.

I mean, Goku’s nerfed kid body beating Tamagami 3 was a big deal, but even in the Boo Saga Goku already had a big lead over Dabura. Daima Goku is probably a bit stronger.

I think this is easier to understand if I show mumbers.

Dabura: 100 (Let’s say he only matches BS SSJ Gohan)
Tamagami 3: 120

Goku (Boo Saga): 3
~ SSJ: 150
~ SSJ2: 300
~ SSJ3: 1,200

Kid Goku: 1.5
~ SSJ: 75
~ SSJ2: 150 (Needed SSJ2 to beat T3)
~ SSJ3: 600
~ SSJ4: 1,200 (Guessing the multiplier)

Adult Goku: 3.75 (Marginal gains from Boo Saga)
~ SSJ: 187.5
~ SSJ2: 375
~ SSJ3: 1,500
~ SSJ4: 3,000

Got it?

Overall I’ll concede here that you got a fair point. I still disagree on Cell Games SSJ being a evolution of original SSJ, but that’s redundant. Either way Cell Saga Goku had better training conditions in the Rosat that with Kaio, and he came out of the Rosat saying he was near his limit.

But I have one last question: What about Gotenks? I think it’s a massive reach when people just say “Well he didn’t go SSJ3 in the movie so it doesn’t count” because he did use SSJ3 in the manga. The boys were really into fighting so I doubt he slacked. And even if he did, how much weaker can he really get? The boys barely trained in their lives, there’s not much power to lose here.

[Grimlock]

Is Dragon Ball Super not Toriyama content?

Kind of. It's more correct say it's a shared product. We still don't know what was in his napkin notes and what were added by Toei and Toyotaro. And that goes specifically for Universe 6 saga, Future Trunks saga and Universe Survival saga. The retellings were made based directly off of the movies without his involvement, you can tell by the appearance of filler characters that were not there in the movies (and the lack of announcements with his involvement like those three sagas had). The movies, however, had more of his direct involvement, as we can easily tell.

He himself asked the movies to be remade,

That hardly means anything. If all the retellings had were his suggestion to be made, then we can say he had more involvement with Dragon Ball GT providing designs than with the retellings, because at least that series had some input from him. It doesn't necessarily mean the way the movies were retold was the way Toriyama saw them. That all of the differences and whatnot came from him.

and things such as SSJG being near Beerus' full power or the original lore behind SSJG are clearly not canon anymore. It's been over 10 years, let it go. I know the movie is better, but if you compare the theatrical cut, the extended cut and the anime it's clear the anime mostly just adds things that didn't fit in the movie's runtime.

The only thing we should let it go is try to assume stuff we don't know about, and to dictate which version we should consider. The movies are not going anywhere.

They explain that incorporating the theatrical films Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ into the new television series was Toriyama’s idea, and was part of introducing the characters Beerus and Whis, who the producers deemed essential to the story, to children who may not have already seen the movies.

Unfortunately, they don't cover the "changes" you said in your previous post. So that link doesn't answer anything.

[Mr Baggins]

Regarding Gotenks, I'm not sure that fusion in general counts. If it did, it's hard to see how Goku can be called #1 in a world where the man himself can fuse into a new being whenever, wherever.

But it's true that Super Saiyan 3 isn't used by Gotenks in most versions of the story. The sole exception is the manga, which doesn't try to push any particular hierarchy there anyway.

[Miracles]

It's just a powered up version of SSJ [All his modes] after making SSJG another form of Goku's. Nothing more. It is and was never as strong as or stronger than Red.

Goku's ki was felt. Meaning he is no longer god.

[picc]

Could Goku using his Blue form from the end of the Granolah saga (or currently) beat Jiren from the ToP?

[Miracles]

Could Goku using his Blue form from the end of the Granolah saga (or currently) beat Jiren from the ToP?

Yes. Especially when he can use Ultra Instinct with Blue.

[Hugo Boss]

Could Goku using his Blue form from the end of the Granolah saga (or currently) beat Jiren from the ToP?

It would be a closer match, but Jiren was like two or three steps ahead of Goku back then. I think it would be more credible that Goku could match his UI Sign level from that arc. And I’m not sure if even that would be possible either.

[picc]

Could Goku using his Blue form from the end of the Granolah saga (or currently) beat Jiren from the ToP?

It would be a closer match, but Jiren was like two or three steps ahead of Goku back then. I think it would be more credible that Goku could match his UI Sign level from that arc. And I’m not sure if even that would be possible either.

Do you see UI Sign Goku from the tournament transported to the fight with Gas and performing as well?

[Hugo Boss]

Could Goku using his Blue form from the end of the Granolah saga (or currently) beat Jiren from the ToP?

It would be a closer match, but Jiren was like two or three steps ahead of Goku back then. I think it would be more credible that Goku could match his UI Sign level from that arc. And I’m not sure if even that would be possible either.

Do you see UI Sign Goku from the tournament transported to the fight with Gas and performing as well?

Logically speaking, there is no reason to assume he would perform worse, considering UI Sign is still a transformation above Blue, which has an inferior version of UI at the same time. In my opinion, the Saiyan forms work as different spectrum ranges of a huge power ladder. What Goku did in Granolah arc was basically making Blue get closer in the spectrum to UI Sign, but not exactly overlapping it. Until further notice, I’m not convinced you can make such claim.

[picc]

It would be a closer match, but Jiren was like two or three steps ahead of Goku back then. I think it would be more credible that Goku could match his UI Sign level from that arc. And I’m not sure if even that would be possible either.

Do you see UI Sign Goku from the tournament transported to the fight with Gas and performing as well?

Logically speaking, there is no reason to assume he would perform worse, considering UI Sign is still a transformation above Blue, which has an inferior version of UI at the same time. In my opinion, the Saiyan forms work as different spectrum ranges of a huge power ladder. What Goku did in Granolah arc was basically making Blue get closer in the spectrum to UI Sign, but not exactly overlapping it. Until further notice, I’m not convinced you can make such claim.

The logic would be that his Blue at that point had surpassed his UI Sign.

I understand your assumption is that's improbable, but so are a lot of series power jumps. At least with the Saiyans, they have a built in BS creep with their race gaining power in real time through fighting.

For example, Vegeta's SSBE nearly catching up to full power Granolah after a few minutes of fighting. That's a same-arc example of the saiyans' power level drastically increasing in a very short amount of time, without a transformation.

I'm not convinced Goku's blue could match Jiren by that point, to be clear. That's why I'm asking. But I'm also not convinced it couldn't simply because the power creep would have to be unnaturally high. That's kind of the name of the game in DB.

[Mr Baggins]

For example, Vegeta's SSBE nearly catching up to full power Granolah after a few minutes of fighting. That's a same-arc example of the saiyans' power level drastically increasing in a very short amount of time, without a transformation.

Not a great example, given that's exaggerating what happened.

Vegeta was holding his own remarkably well against Granolah from the start, to the point that Granolah was forced to admit the gulf between them wasn't nearly as big as he assumed. Then Vegeta explains that while Granolah may be stronger, he lacks the battle experience to back it up. A few pages later he says he's gradually grown a bit stronger himself throughout their fight.

Even after all that, Granolah winds up inflicting a ton of damage on Vegeta with a single strike. This helps him awaken Ultra Ego for the first time – a transformation where the whole gimmick is getting stronger from fighting and taking damage – and only then are we shown a "drastic increase" in Vegeta's power. Hell, Goku literally only lost because he was caught off-guard after Ultra Instinct's accuracy dropped off.

A lot of this was because Granolah had little fighting experience, but the gap between them was pretty marginal the whole time.

[Hugo Boss]

The logic would be that his Blue at that point had surpassed his UI Sign.

I understand your assumption is that's improbable, but so are a lot of series power jumps. At least with the Saiyans, they have a built in BS creep with their race gaining power in real time through fighting.

For example, Vegeta's SSBE nearly catching up to full power Granolah after a few minutes of fighting. That's a same-arc example of the saiyans' power level drastically increasing in a very short amount of time, without a transformation.

I'm not convinced Goku's blue could match Jiren by that point, to be clear. That's why I'm asking. But I'm also not convinced it couldn't simply because the power creep would have to be unnaturally high. That's kind of the name of the game in DB.

I think you’re still missing my point. It’s not just improbable. It’s simply that the narrative doesn’t frame Blue with ultra instinct as a form that surpass UI Sign in any way. Power creep is not a reason per si, Goku doesn’t do anything in that form suggesting he can beat someone UI Sign can’t. He only managed to escape Gas, which doesn’t tell us anything. In another hand, the narrative gives us a clear picture of UI Sign surpassing UI Completed when Goku’s mental state is affecting him. I think a better question would be if Granolah arc UI Sign can beat Jiren or Moro.

[picc]

For example, Vegeta's SSBE nearly catching up to full power Granolah after a few minutes of fighting. That's a same-arc example of the saiyans' power level drastically increasing in a very short amount of time, without a transformation.

Not a great example, given that's exaggerating what happened.

Vegeta was holding his own remarkably well against Granolah from the start, to the point that Granolah was forced to admit the gulf between them wasn't nearly as big as he assumed. Then Vegeta explains that while Granolah may be stronger, he lacks the battle experience to back it up. A few pages later he says he's gradually grown a bit stronger himself throughout their fight.

Even after all that, Granolah winds up inflicting a ton of damage on Vegeta with a single strike. This helps him awaken Ultra Ego for the first time – a transformation where the whole gimmick is getting stronger from fighting and taking damage – and only then are we shown a "drastic increase" in Vegeta's power. Hell, Goku literally only lost because he was caught off-guard after Ultra Instinct's accuracy dropped off.

A lot of this was because Granolah had little fighting experience, but the gap between them was pretty marginal the whole time.

He didn't say he grew "a bit" stronger. "A bit" you just made up to reinforce your own head canon. Respectfully.

He says he's grown stronger, which he did. Which is all I referenced -- the common trope of Saiyans increasing in battle strength during a fight. Which is the only logical explanation for Goku's performance in Blue, defensive or not.

[picc]

The logic would be that his Blue at that point had surpassed his UI Sign.

I understand your assumption is that's improbable, but so are a lot of series power jumps. At least with the Saiyans, they have a built in BS creep with their race gaining power in real time through fighting.

For example, Vegeta's SSBE nearly catching up to full power Granolah after a few minutes of fighting. That's a same-arc example of the saiyans' power level drastically increasing in a very short amount of time, without a transformation.

I'm not convinced Goku's blue could match Jiren by that point, to be clear. That's why I'm asking. But I'm also not convinced it couldn't simply because the power creep would have to be unnaturally high. That's kind of the name of the game in DB.

I think you’re still missing my point. It’s not just improbable. It’s simply that the narrative doesn’t frame Blue with ultra instinct as a form that surpass UI Sign in any way. Power creep is not a reason per si, Goku doesn’t do anything in that form suggesting he can beat someone UI Sign can’t. He only managed to escape Gas, which doesn’t tell us anything. In another hand, the narrative gives us a clear picture of UI Sign surpassing UI Completed when Goku’s mental state is affecting him. I think a better question would be if Granolah arc UI Sign can beat Jiren or Moro.

I don't think I'm looking for/require the same narrative framing that you do, then.

I also think you're downplaying (or we simply disagree on) Goku's battle with Gas. He was playing defense, yes. But I see a character who is several arcs worth more powerful than Jiren aggressively trying to kill Goku, and failing not just that, but failing to land any solid blow whatsoever. I can think of countless battles where a fighter was defending himself and it simply didn't work because they were that much weaker.

Obviously Blue Goku is still weaker than Gas here. What I have to consider is that the power difference that would need to exist if Goku was still below Jiren, would logically render even a defensive stalemate impossible. How strong does that make Blue then? I don't really know.

[Mr Baggins]

He says he's grown stronger, which he did. Which is all I referenced -- the common trope of Saiyans increasing in battle strength during a fight. Which is the only logical explanation for Goku's performance in Blue, defensive or not.

Your emphasis on "drastic" is undermined by the narrative context of their fight, as my post lays out. Don't be a pedant.

It's readily and abundantly apparent they weren't closing significant power gaps within minutes of fighting without transforming; this has literally never happened for either of these two characters in any Dragon Ball manga chapter ever, be it Super or the original series. There'd be zero reason for the solutions they actually have to come up with throughout the story if it worked that way.

The only exception would be if it was a built-in feature of a particular form, like with Ultra Ego, or something like Goku growing more accustomed to Super Saiyan God's full power.

Your example is unconvincing.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Personally, I've always preferred the notion that, while they've been getting stronger throughout DBS, they haven't been leaps and bounds stronger by several times.

SSB from the beginning of DBS is still mostly in-line with the current end of DBS in my eyes.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

There's a point to be made about SSJBE Vegeta surpassing Broly since Whis says he doesn't know anyone in the universe stronger than Goku and Vegeta, but there's also that weird comment about even UI Goku still being weaker than Broly made around the same time.

Good old SSJB stands no chance. They may have gotten a few times stronger (Assuming Gohan was close to ToP Goku, what Goku did to Saganbo was no small feat), but I wouldn't say current SSJB beats first appearance UIO, or that current SSJG beats a RoF SSJB.

[Koitsukai]

The SSBE Geets-Granny fight I always read it as Granola not being as strong as he could possibly be. Defeating Goku due to having a lame-ish version of UI (due to Goku's own reasons that accompanied him althroughout the arc), and not being that much stronger than SSBE Vegeta.
Granny later unlocks the full power of the wish, but I'd say that had Goku been using UI at full power, Granola would've lost.

FP Gas vs UI+ SSB Goku is a whole different beast. Gas is going for the kill and Goku is doing a better job than Italy's defense in Spain '82. He is making a huge gap look small, also helped by Gas' lack of experience with shunkanido and his increasing restlessness.
Difficult to see weaker fighters land a blow on Goku when Gas failed so hard. And not just failed to tag him, Goku blocked kicks and punches, took one to the fucking gut, too.
In Jiren's defense, he is such an experienced and great fighter overall that he might be skilled enough to do what the brutest force couldn't, but I still struggle to see how Moro73 could deal more damage than Gas.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In Gas’ defense, SSJB Goku was getting hurt even when he blocked the attacks.

I’m not sure if Jiren could do much here. Moro tanked a blast from SSJBE Vegeta. But then that would imply 73 Moro could fight Granolah, which I’m not so sure of.

Can SSJBE Vegeta (Vs Granolah) beat 73 Moro? No magic or Spirit Fission.