The Super Saiyan Legend and misconceptions

[SilverPlaqueVII]

I was thinking that the last Super Saiyan lived 1000 years back and Broli is the same age as Son Goku. That makes no sense. As well, the SSJ4 may be in fact the true Legendary Super Saiyan form that Vegeta spoke in the Namek story arc as he said "the last Super Saiyan could maintain his status in the transformed state." I acknowledge that the Golden Oozaru form was an unknown Saiyan who achieved it in a filler scene but he was almost close to SSJ4.

If Broli would've blown up like the Legendary Super Saiyan 1000 years back, he would've transformed into a full moon and blown up.

[Herms]

If Broli would've blown up like the Legendary Super Saiyan 1000 years back, he would've transformed into a full moon and blown up.

Now that I would love to see.

[desirecampbell]

If Broli would've blown up like the Legendary Super Saiyan 1000 years back, he would've transformed into a full moon and blown up.

Now that I would love to see.

That's no moon!

[Vegeta Jr]

Both Broly and Super Saiyan 4 are non-canon though.

[rereboy]

I had a flashback of Abridged Piccolo screaming "MOOOOOON!!!"

[TheGreatness25]

Broly and Super Saiyan 4 are non-canon yes. And I doubt Akira Toriyama planned out that far ahead, to the point where he would have more than one Super Saiyan.

In watching the Broly movie, I came up with a theory as to why he's the "legendary" Super Saiyan.

The Super Saiyan Vegeta mentions is the legendary warrior that existed 1,000 years back. The transformation was legendary because no Saiyan that was still alive had ever experienced it. The transformation was a myth.

Now onto Broly. I believe the "legend" that he is associated with is this: "There is a legend of a Super Saiyan who destroys planets, and it just so happens to be Broly." I think that the two legends tell a different story. "Legendary" Super Saiyan is not a transformation, like the DBZ games in recent years. He is in that "ascended" form like Trunks was, and the green ki comes form the mind control device because the second that he is no longer under mind control, he has golden ki.

As far as Super Saiyan 4, I really like that transformation. And the golden great ape transformation is basically becoming a great ape while transforming Super Saiyan. However, Akria Toriyama definitely could not have Super Saiyan 4 further from his mind when coming up with the Super Saiyan transformation on Namek.

Maybe I'm thinking too far into it.

[Terra-jin]

I'm not really sure what SilverPlaque is asking... but here's my two cents on the subject of the Legend:

There is only one person who can achieve the forms of Super Saiyan, but the thing that makes him legendary is the fact that he inspires others to reach SSj, as well. So the true Legendary Super Saiyan is the one who achieves it first and then acts as the catalyst for other Super Saiyans to emerge, literally ushering in a new Saiyan golden age.
That Saiyan is Goku (I would dismiss Broly as a mutant freak who got to SSj on his own. Broly would never inspire others to do the same). Without Goku, there would never have been any Super Saiyans. It took Goku's presence to show others the way...

Arguably, the original SSj was more like Broly than like Goku... but I just like the idea of the Legendary SSj as some kind of "messiah"

[Vagrant_Samurai]

That's no moon!

I just laughed my ass off. That is all.

I'm not really sure what SilverPlaque is asking... but here's my two cents on the subject of the Legend:

There is only one person who can achieve the forms of Super Saiyan, but the thing that makes him legendary is the fact that he inspires others to reach SSj, as well. So the true Legendary Super Saiyan is the one who achieves it first and then acts as the catalyst for other Super Saiyans to emerge, literally ushering in a new Saiyan golden age.
That Saiyan is Goku (I would dismiss Broly as a mutant freak who got to SSj on his own. Broly would never inspire others to do the same). Without Goku, there would never have been any Super Saiyans. It took Goku's presence to show others the way...

Arguably, the original SSj was more like Broly than like Goku... but I just like the idea of the Legendary SSj as some kind of "messiah"

So what you're saying :

Brolly is the the Antichrist
Son Goku is Jesus.

I really like that Logic. It explains a lot.

[caejones]

Well, Buu is more like the antichrist than Broli... although we don't see as much of Broli's antichristing as Buu's, I guess....

[Vagrant_Samurai]

Well, Buu is more like the antichrist than Broli... although we don't see as much of Broli's antichristing as Buu's, I guess....

Well, Buu is really the AntiChrist to the entire Universe, and the Kaioshin specifically.
Brolly is the AntiChrist to the Saiyans...and probably would have taken up the the former of Buu's Examples...if Jesus(and then in turn the Sons of Christ if we take into account Movie 10) didn't kill him first.

[Dayspring]

Well, Buu is more like the antichrist than Broli... although we don't see as much of Broli's antichristing as Buu's, I guess....

Well, Buu is really the AntiChrist to the entire Universe, and the Kaioshin specifically.
Brolly is the AntiChrist to the Saiyans...and probably would have taken up the the former of Buu's Examples...if Jesus(and then in turn the Sons of Christ if we take into account Movie 10) didn't kill him first.

The Legendary SSJ is their version of God's Wrath, not their Christ or Antichrist. So Goku is actually the Saiyan Satan, since he's literally the "adversary" of the Legendary SSJ.

Also, Boo can't be the AntiChrist to the entire Universe. That would imply the entire Universe was Christ.

And as much as I don't want to go off-topic, the AntiChrist never opposed Jesus, he opposed Taveh ("The Lamb"), the second coming of Christ (meaning the Holy Spirit reincarnated again, not Jesus with a new name and a chip on his shoulder). And rightfully so. That guy's a prideful, arrogant douche, while Satan was created by God to test the Christ figures. [/Christian mythos rant]

[Vagrant_Samurai]

Well, Buu is more like the antichrist than Broli... although we don't see as much of Broli's antichristing as Buu's, I guess....

Well, Buu is really the AntiChrist to the entire Universe, and the Kaioshin specifically.
Brolly is the AntiChrist to the Saiyans...and probably would have taken up the the former of Buu's Examples...if Jesus(and then in turn the Sons of Christ if we take into account Movie 10) didn't kill him first.

The Legendary SSJ is their version of God's Wrath, not their Christ or Antichrist. So Goku is actually the Saiyan Satan, since he's literally the "adversary" of the Legendary SSJ.

Also, Boo can't be the AntiChrist to the entire Universe. That would imply the entire Universe was Christ.

And as much as I don't want to go off-topic, the AntiChrist never opposed Jesus, he opposed Taveh ("The Lamb"), the second coming of Christ (meaning the Holy Spirit reincarnated again, not Jesus with a new name and a chip on his shoulder). And rightfully so. That guy's a prideful, arrogant douche, while Satan was created by God to test the Christ figures. [/Christian mythos rant]

Ah, my apologies. I didn't read that book. Just not my cup of joe. But -

[Christian Theology Questions] I understand Lucifer is meant to test the Faith Of Christians, but what about the whole "Paradise Lost" bit? The Fall From Grace and whatnot? Isn't he the Exemplification of Hubris? Or is Dante leading me onto misconceptions? [/Christian Theology Questions]

And if my logic was set, The Messiah of the Universe would the DaiKaoshin to Buu's AntiChrist.

[Dayspring]

Ah, my apologies. I didn't read that book. Just not my cup of joe. But -

[Christian Theology Questions] I understand Lucifer is meant to test the Faith Of Christians, but what about the whole "Paradise Lost" bit? The Fall From Grace and whatnot? Isn't he the Exemplification of Hubris? Or is Dante leading me onto misconceptions? [/Christian Theology Questions]

And if my logic was set, The Messiah of the Universe would the DaiKaoshin to Buu's AntiChrist.

Not sure where Satan=Beelzebub=Lucifer came from, to be honest, so I can't really answer that. In the Bible, God's bragging to all the other gods and to his children (implying Angels are demi-gods or that God is a Zeus-figure) about how amazing Job's love for God is. Everyone's in agreement, except Satan, one of the children/gods, who says "well...YEAH. You kind of gave him everything a mortal could ever hope for...and MORE." God's answer is "Good point. But I bet it'll still be there if you take all that happiness away." Thus Satan starts making Job miserable, as per God's instructions. The next time we see Satan, he's been sent by God to test Jesus' resolve in the desert (which is where the idea of Satan being the king of Hell comes from; The Desert equals what's left after something's exposed to Hellfire). The third time, Jesus literally summons Satan and tells him to enter Judas in order to the necessary evil of betrayal. The fourth and final time is when Satan is the antichrist, but he's the Lamb's adversary, only when the Lamb unleashed the Apocalypse to proove he's the only one worthy and powerful enough to end said Apocalypse (which is why I hate the Lamb).

Back on-topic, I don't think there's any Christ/Antichrist figures in DB. The Dai Kaioshin is closer to Zeus or Odin than to Christ. Maybe the Piccolo and 23rd Budokai arcs set up Goku as a Christ then, with the Piccolos as the antichrists?

[Vagrant_Samurai]

Ah, my apologies. I didn't read that book. Just not my cup of joe. But -

[Christian Theology Questions] I understand Lucifer is meant to test the Faith Of Christians, but what about the whole "Paradise Lost" bit? The Fall From Grace and whatnot? Isn't he the Exemplification of Hubris? Or is Dante leading me onto misconceptions? [/Christian Theology Questions]

And if my logic was set, The Messiah of the Universe would the DaiKaoshin to Buu's AntiChrist.

Not sure where Satan=Beelzebub=Lucifer came from, to be honest, so I can't really answer that. In the Bible, God's bragging to all the other gods and to his children (implying Angels are demi-gods or that God is a Zeus-figure) about how amazing Job's love for God is. Everyone's in agreement, except Satan, one of the children/gods, who says "well...YEAH. You kind of gave him everything a mortal could ever hope for...and MORE." God's answer is "Good point. But I bet it'll still be there if you take all that happiness away." Thus Satan starts making Job miserable, as per God's instructions. The next time we see Satan, he's been sent by God to test Jesus' resolve in the desert (which is where the idea of Satan being the king of Hell comes from; The Desert equals what's left after something's exposed to Hellfire). The third time, Jesus literally summons Satan and tells him to enter Judas in order to the necessary evil of betrayal. The fourth and final time is when Satan is the antichrist, but he's the Lamb's adversary, only when the Lamb unleashed the Apocalypse to proove he's the only one worthy and powerful enough to end said Apocalypse (which is why I hate the Lamb).

Back on-topic, I don't think there's any Christ/Antichrist figures in DB. The Dai Kaioshin is closer to Zeus or Odin than to Christ. Maybe the Piccolo and 23rd Budokai arcs set up Goku as a Christ then, with the Piccolos as the antichrists?

On Topic - This is just Random Crap People are Coming up With For Fun. I don't really think it fits well. The only one it could make sense is your example. Piccolo is believed to be a Demon at that time, so it would make sense that Goku would be set as his Foil.

Off Topic - This is why Religion confuses the living Hell out of me.
1st - I hate that Story with a serious passion. It makes the Abrahamic God out to be a jackass like the Greek's which is completely counter-productive to his entire message. It also implies he is not in-fact Omniscient. Which is just confusing and not fitting into the rest of the story.

2nd - That Example would set Satan as "Doing The Dirty Work" you could say. Which makes sense as to why the common conception of him is evil. They do the Same with Hades / Pluto. He's originally one of the better God's in the Greek / Roman Pantheon of Deity's. But most common examples show him as a Malicious Entity. So you could say the people weren't paying attention to "Suffering = Character Building" and just saw it as "Suffering = Not Fun".

3rd - That example confuses me to Hell and Back. If Yahweh or "I am" is in fact Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, then this makes no sense. Why would he order Satan (Who has no Free Will - being an Angel) to force a Man who serves under his Physical Embodiment (Judas - Who Has Free Will) to commit great Evil and then condemn him to Hell for an action that he was forced to do while possessed?

4th - Again I am confused. This is what happens when dozens of people write one book. Who is the "Lamb" and why is there the End of the World? I thought Christ was "The Lion and the Lamb"? And why is The Anti-Christ ending an Apocalypse? Either way, whether for Good or Evil, it's Hubris.

This Book confuses me to Hell.

[Godo]

Regarding this Christ/Antichrist debate and the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai:
If you write about it vaguely you can get it to sound like a religious text!

At the dawn of the new God's era, the Son of Katatts, known for being the true one, the neutral one, was split into two; a light side who watches from the heavens, and a dark side who watches from the ground. The light side became our Kami, striving for justice and goodness. The dark side became Piccolo, striving for evil and crimes.
For years, Piccolo wrecked havoc on the ground, spreading his evil and tempting for humans to commit crimes.
But Kami knew the strength of his people, as he awaited a man he had observed for quite some time. This man was the Prophet Mutaito, who sealed Piccolo into a vessel, giving up his life for the people and the good.

The Prophet Mutaito had two disciples; Muten Roshi and Tsufuru Sennin. Unfortunately, Tsufuru Sennin would strive to the darkness, leaving Muten Roshi to teach about his master's ways and values.

Many years later, Muten Roshi would encounter a small boy with a good heart. With the boy aiding a friend of Muten Roshi, he was rewarded with a golden cloud, who was said to be derived from the heavens, and to only bear those pure of heart.
This boy would eventually be taken in by Muten Roshi and be taught of the holy martial arts of Kung Fu. His name was Son Goku. Little did they know that this boy would one day battle with his life on the stakes to defeat the evil Piccolo once and for all.

At the defeat of Piccolo, he reincarnated himself. Son Goku, now knowing of this horrible fact, went to the holy Karin and asked for help to revive the dead Shenlong, a holy Dragon that grants wishes. He would find out that this holy dragon is made by God himself, and he got permission to enter his world.
After being taught by Kami himself, he would once and for all defeat the evil Piccolo, and being granted to replace his holiness himself.

But Son Goku rather wanted to live on at Earth, executing miracle after miracle, with Kami watching from above.

[Rocketman]

The Dai Kaioshin is closer to Zeus or Odin than to Christ.

Not hardly. Zeus would've done Gohan up the bum.

[Blue]

The Dai Kaioshin is closer to Zeus or Odin than to Christ.

Not hardly. Zeus would've done Gohan up the bum.

How do you know he didn't?

[Dayspring]

The Dai Kaioshin is closer to Zeus or Odin than to Christ.

Not hardly. Zeus would've done Gohan up the bum.

No, he would transformed into a random animal for pretty much no reason, then boinked the hottest female in the world, then take on the form of a super powerful mortal man and- SWEET MERCIFUL FRAK, HE'S GOKU!

[caejones]

I... really shouldn't, but the opportunity's here...

1st - I hate that Story with a serious passion. It makes the Abrahamic God out to be a jackass like the Greek's which is completely counter-productive to his entire message. It also implies he is not in-fact Omniscient. Which is just confusing and not fitting into the rest of the story.

*Confused by this point, but eh*

2nd - That Example would set Satan as "Doing The Dirty Work" you could say. Which makes sense as to why the common conception of him is evil. They do the Same with Hades / Pluto. He's originally one of the better God's in the Greek / Roman Pantheon of Deity's. But most common examples show him as a Malicious Entity. So you could say the people weren't paying attention to "Suffering = Character Building" and just saw it as "Suffering = Not Fun".

Suffering = character building is a huge point, so far as I understand the text. There's some point in ... somewhere (I think one of Paul's writings, but I'm not sure) where the fruits of God's spirit are mentioned, and one is "longsuffering".

3rd - That example confuses me to Hell and Back. If Yahweh or "I am" is in fact Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent, then this makes no sense. Why would he order Satan (Who has no Free Will - being an Angel) to force a Man who serves under his Physical Embodiment (Judas - Who Has Free Will) to commit great Evil and then condemn him to Hell for an action that he was forced to do while possessed?

1) Free Will = ???
2) Hell = ???
Yeah. I don't believe the book supports the existence of _either_ of those (at least not in the form most people understand them), which seems to resolve the question entirely. Or... mostly.

4th - Again I am confused. This is what happens when dozens of people write one book. Who is the "Lamb" and why is there the End of the World? I thought Christ was "The Lion and the Lamb"? And why is The Anti-Christ ending an Apocalypse? Either way, whether for Good or Evil, it's Hubris.

This Book confuses me to Hell.

Revelation is an extremely confusing book. Every time I read it I think something different. -_-.


Vaguely on-topic....
The Zeus/Goku comparison is muy amusing, though there's that one little deal about Zeus basically doing whatever he wants to whoever he wants... arguably Goku's the same, they just want different things...
I'd say Goku fits the Mossiah trope pretty much to the letter (Ur, he's in the list of examples at TV Tropes XD).

Interesting to note is that Goku dies acrificially and comes back to save the day. And then goes SSJ.
Vegeta dies not-so-sacrificially, and comes back to go SSJ.
If anything, Goku and Vegeta have a bit of a Christ/Antichrist thing going on. Though only sorta kinda.