How was DBZ originally gonna end?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Xyex
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Post by Xyex » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:17 am

Uh..I think the plan was to have everyone but Goku and Freeza live. o_o Dende was brought back to life and made the wish with the Namekian Dragon Balls to have everyone on Namek but Goku and Freeza sent to Earth. He then healed Piccolo right before Namek blew up.
That's the way the series went, yes, but that isn't the way it could have gone if he'd been allowed to bring it to an ending as he'd intended. In fact, the whole revival of the Nameks comes off to me as an attempt to bring himself back to a point from which he can continue the story. In which case, they were originally never meant to survive.
We do know that he planned on ending it several times, though the specifics of how it would play out in the story are known only by Toriyama himself (And, uh, he probably forgot anyways).

He first wanted to end it after year 3 in the manga. He was forced to continue. Later on, after the 23rd Budokai, he began running out of ideas. So when TOEI wanted a new name for the series, he came up with the 'Z', signifying that the story would be ending soon.

Finally, we know that the Freeza saga was his last planned arc. Upon completion, he was once again forced to continue.

That's all that we know. (Without speculation)
Not quite. He'd planned the ending 3 times before he stopped. First time was post Pilaf, it was just going to be a short series at first. Second time was with Freeza. Third was Cell.
I honestly don't think Toriyama ever planned Goku to blow up along with Namek, and then just end the story. Gohan wasn't ready to take over as defender of the earth, Vegeta was still evil, and it makes no sense to me to make Goku go through all that just to get blown up. No, that would've been a HORRIBLE way to end the story, and I can't imagine how any of you can even consider that to be a good ending. Honorable? Yeah, sure, whatever. But does it work as a Dragonball story? Hell no.
I don't doubt it. With the advent of Goku's Super Saiya-jin transformation it was pretty much given (had he not been forced to continue) that he would have died. The Legend of the Super Saiya-jin said that the last SSJ couldn't control his power and that the planet he was on was destroyed taking him with it. You'll notice a LOT of things leading up to that exact same occurance with Goku, prior to the 'recovery' point where he had to try and bring everything back to a point he could keep the story going from.

Had he been able to end it as planned it is my thought that the Earth DBs would be used to get Gohan, Piccolo, and Bulma to Earth while Goku finished the fight with Freeza. Then Namek would have exploded taking both with it. In the end, only Gohan, Piccolo, and Bulma would have been left.
^ Well said & I agree with you. When Goku sacraficed himself in the Cell Games, Gohan was the strongest on earth at the time. Goku was gonna hand down the title of protector. If Goku were to blow up with Freeza, that means Vegeta wins & kills everyone & rules the universe.
Vegeta being evil still wouldn't matter, he, like most of the others, would have stayed dead. You have to realize, the entire end of the fight with Freeza would have been completely different had Toriyama-sama not been forced to change it.

Passing down the role of protector was the theme of the Cell saga as Toriayama-sama's way of saying "It's over. Goku's gone and thus, his story ends here." and that's what DB/Z was, Goku's story. The only difference with ending it at Freeza is that it would have been the full wrap-up of Goku's life. Just escaping before Planet Vegeta is destroyed and then coming back and attaining the legendary power of Super Saiya-jin in order to kill Freeza and finish what his father started.

With that ending there would have been no need to pass on the role of protector to Gohan. Freeza was it. He was the ultimate evil, the greatest threat to the universe. With him gone there would have been only peace. And, while I love the Androids/Cell/Buu sagas and Trunks and 18 are two of my favorite characters, I think the Namek ending would have been an amazing one.
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Post by the_abberration » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:15 am

Great Saiyaman wrote:^ How exactly would that look? Vegeta is far stronger than Gohan, Vegeta would have ravaged the earth, Gohan, Piccolo, & the universe.
Wasn't DB also about the hero overcoming the odds to defeat the villian?

Vegita was far stronger than Goku in the beginning. So was Freeza. He was able to overcome them. If Gohan had taken over as Earth's protector I would imagine Toriyama would have done the same for him.

Wasn't Gohan able to help defeat Vegita on Earth, got a power up that made Vegita think he was feeling Kakaroto's Ki, was able to attack Freeza after he wounded Kirririn, beat Garlic Jr. (twice), defeat Cell, and almost defeat evil Buu?

Gohan was meant to take the mantle. However, just like DBZ was to continue past Freeza it was to do so with Goku. Gohan just never took hold with JP fans. You cry one time and people never let you forget :)

DBZ could have just as easily ended with episode #106. Goku and Freeza are "dead", Vegeta flies off but remains a threat (similar to Piccolo in DB), and Gohan who has this "hidden power" is left to pick up where his dad left off.
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Post by Great Saiyaman » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:44 am

the_abberration wrote:
Great Saiyaman wrote:^ How exactly would that look? Vegeta is far stronger than Gohan, Vegeta would have ravaged the earth, Gohan, Piccolo, & the universe.
Wasn't DB also about the hero overcoming the odds to defeat the villian?

Vegita was far stronger than Goku in the beginning. So was Freeza. He was able to overcome them. If Gohan had taken over as Earth's protector I would imagine Toriyama would have done the same for him.

Wasn't Gohan able to help defeat Vegita on Earth, got a power up that made Vegita think he was feeling Kakaroto's Ki, was able to attack Freeza after he wounded Kirririn, beat Garlic Jr. (twice), defeat Cell, and almost defeat evil Buu?

Gohan was meant to take the mantle. However, just like DBZ was to continue past Freeza it was to do so with Goku. Gohan just never took hold with JP fans. You cry one time and people never let you forget :)

DBZ could have just as easily ended with episode #106. Goku and Freeza are "dead", Vegeta flies off but remains a threat (similar to Piccolo in DB), and Gohan who has this "hidden power" is left to pick up where his dad left off.
But Gohan is just far far weaker than Vegeta, it wouldn't work out. But I hafta say, I am a Goku fanboy, I love to see Goku win & be the hero, c'mon this is his story, I never liked how Toriyama tried to make Gohan the hero.
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Post by Xyex » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:28 am

How exactly would that look? Vegeta is far stronger than Gohan, Vegeta would have ravaged the earth, Gohan, Piccolo, & the universe.
It would have been fine because Vegeta would have been dead. People seem to forget this fact. Vegeta was revived with the Earth DBs. That wouldn't have happened with the original ending.
But Gohan is just far far weaker than Vegeta, it wouldn't work out. But I hafta say, I am a Goku fanboy, I love to see Goku win & be the hero, c'mon this is his story, I never liked how Toriyama tried to make Gohan the hero.
I wish the JP fans had let Gohan stay the hero. Goku had saved everyone enough times, it was time for something new.
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:29 pm

Xyex wrote:I wish the JP fans had let Gohan stay the hero. Goku had saved everyone enough times, it was time for something new.
I think this was a case of going one way with the anime and another with the manga. Sure "Z" starts a different chapter of Goku's life and has a significant focus on Gohan, but it's still Goku's story; it's still an anime based on a manga about Goku. Gohan was just another new character in the story when you read the manga.
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Post by Conan the SSJ » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:36 pm

Xyex wrote:I wish the JP fans had let Gohan stay the hero. Goku had saved everyone enough times, it was time for something new.
I fully agree, Goku had his time in the original DB series as well as that battle with the Saiyans and Frieza. However during the battle with the Saiyans, Gohan was gradually leaving large hints of his true power, famous instances being his massive head-butt on Raditz, standing up to and impressing Nappa following Piccolo's death, ending the battle with Vegeta to a draw in his Oozaru form, a few very noticeable instances during the battle against Frieza, and that's not even counting other minor occurrences that have been sprinkled in the anime and manga alike. Gohan showed in the Android arc that he had the potential to be the strongest fighter in the universe, however he still needed Goku's and the Z Warriors' help in the end. When the Buu saga came along, Gohan obviously slacked off and wasn't at his best, however he regained his full power before Buu was released, though it wasn't enough to kill Buu while he was in his ball. Following Gohan's literal quick escape from death, he trained on Kaioshin's planet with the Z Sword, eventually breaking it and releasing Rou Kaioshin, who then does what the Namekian Elder couldn't; release Gohan's Ultimate full, hidden powers. Then he went back to Earth to take care of Buu once and for all, without Goku's help or any of the other Z Warriors.

Do you guys see the point I'm trying to make, the aspect that Gohan was at his absolute best and didn't have his Father with him in any physical or mental way, along with the confidence he was finally showing, insinuated that this was his time to be the hero of the planet without anyone's help, which Goku basically did against Frieza. If the JP fans and Toriyama's editor hadn't nagged him to the breaking point to make Goku the hero, Gohan would have been the victor against Buu, Goku most likely would have stayed dead, and Kabito would have probably taken Gohan and the others to Namek to wish for the Earth's populus back to normal (considering things with the Earth's Dragonballs were already being screwy). Gohan's my favorite character of the series, yeah, maybe I'm a little bias. But in my opinion, and I know others here as well, DBZ was Gohan's series. Even if Goku did defeat Buu in the end, Gohan was still the most powerful person on Earth, and he alone probably gave Goku's final Spirit Bomb more than 50% of its energy.
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Post by Saiyan » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:43 pm

I agree with Xyex and Conan.

Everything that happened during the SSj Goku and Freeza depended on one thing: Piccolo's life. If Toriyama decided he should die, the Earth Dragon Balls would have been gone, and therefore would have not revived the Namekians, Vegeta, Krillin, Tenshinan, Yamcha, and Chaozu, leaving Gohan as the only person of the Z-senshi alive. Chi-Chi would have brought him into the academic lifestyle, and would become a scholar.

In turn to not revivng the Namekians, they could not use the Namek Dragon Balls to wish for any of the Z-senshi killed by Vegeta.

Also, by this time, Dragon Ball was getting more violent and action-packed, rather than the happy, comedic style of the starting point. For example, having almost everyone killed by Piccolo Daimao, and leaving Goku almost immobilized by disabling the use of his arm and legs. Then, Goku almost getting killed by Piccolo Jr. by getting pierced through the chest by a ki blast. Then Goku getting killed by Raditz, as well as everyone except for Krillin, Gohan, and Goku getting killed by Vegeta and Nappa. Having Goku die and ending the story would have been a complete turn around from the beginning of the story, but not at the point of where it was at. The change was gradual.

It would have also somewhat held true for the legend that Vegeta told about during the fight with Recoome.

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Post by Great Saiyaman » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:35 pm

I'm sorry, I hate when Toriyama tried to make Gohan the hero. Gohan is a whiney baby, he always has been, he's not Goku, he never was & never will be. Goku was tougher than him (mentally) when we first meet him in Chapter 1. I don't know about you guys, but I like to see one guy be the hero, he's the main guy. Just look at Gohan, he has his cool moments at the Cell Games & then in the Buu Saga he does this Saiyaman crap & slacks off for 7 years. Then what, he sits down for 24 hours & all of the sudden he's the strongest & the hero. I hate that, it's a cheap way to get a power up & beat the villian, I am glad the JP fans reacted the way they did. I mean atleast when Goku drank the Holy Water he had to go through 6 hours of hell to get this power, just just sit still for a day.
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Post by DBZ MAN » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:40 pm

lol, if you think about it, Gohan was only 16 when he kicked the crap out of Majin Buu and he is as strong as a super saiyan 3!! Not bad for a whiening baby.
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Post by Duo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:52 pm

DBZ MAN wrote:lol, if you think about it, Gohan was only 16 when he kicked the crap out of Majin Buu and he is as strong as a super saiyan 3!! Not bad for a whiening baby.
Try Stronger than an Ssj3, by far.

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Post by VegettoEX » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:56 pm

Duo wrote:
DBZ MAN wrote:lol, if you think about it, Gohan was only 16 when he kicked the crap out of Majin Buu and he is as strong as a super saiyan 3!! Not bad for a whiening baby.
Try Stronger than an Ssj3, by far.
If this is what the thread turns into, I'm going to lock it. Please keep it coherent and on-topic.
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Post by Conan the SSJ » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:08 pm

DBZ MAN wrote:lol, if you think about it, Gohan was only 16 when he kicked the crap out of Majin Buu and he is as strong as a super saiyan 3!! Not bad for a whiening baby.
If you think about it, Gohan was actually 18, hence a senior in high school. He was 11 during the Cell Games, seven years later, he'd be 18.
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Post by Duo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:25 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Duo wrote:
DBZ MAN wrote:lol, if you think about it, Gohan was only 16 when he kicked the crap out of Majin Buu and he is as strong as a super saiyan 3!! Not bad for a whiening baby.
Try Stronger than an Ssj3, by far.
If this is what the thread turns into, I'm going to lock it. Please keep it coherent and on-topic.
Nah man, I highly doubt people would have really reacted to my usual antics.
Conan wrote:If you think about it, Gohan was actually 18, hence a senior in high school. He was 11 during the Cell Games, seven years later, he'd be 18.
You've been dubbed.

Begining of Z - Gohan is 4.
End of Freeza Arc - Gohan is 5.
Appearance of Trunks - Gohan is 6 or 7
Artificial Humans - Gohan is 9 or 10
Satan High School - The Manga (and Jp Anime) itself says Gohan is 16.

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Post by Great Saiyaman » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:30 pm

DBZ MAN wrote:lol, if you think about it, Gohan was only 16 when he kicked the crap out of Majin Buu and he is as strong as a super saiyan 3!! Not bad for a whiening baby.
& How did he do that? By cheating, it's just like SSJ4 Vegeta (except this is cannon).
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Post by Rocketman » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:33 pm

I definately prefer the 'SSJ Goku dies on Namek' ending over the real ending or the Cell ending.

Dragonball was Goku's story. I'd rather have had it end with Goku fulfilling the Legend, striking down Freeza, and leaving the universe in peace rather than handing it off to his loser-ass son or training some random mohawk kid.

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:56 pm

Duo wrote:You've been dubbed.

Begining of Z - Gohan is 4.
End of Freeza Arc - Gohan is 5.
Appearance of Trunks - Gohan is 6 or 7
Artificial Humans - Gohan is 9 or 10
Satan High School - The Manga (and Jp Anime) itself says Gohan is 16.
Oh? Then explain to me how Gohan can be 16 if he celebrated his 11th Birthday before the Cell Games (I know, his real birthday was actually a few weeks away, but Chichi thought they should celebrate it while they could) and the Buu arc is an entire 7 years later. How can Gohan be 16 by that logic?
Rocketman wrote:I definately prefer the 'SSJ Goku dies on Namek' ending over the real ending or the Cell ending.

Dragonball was Goku's story. I'd rather have had it end with Goku fulfilling the Legend, striking down Freeza, and leaving the universe in peace rather than handing it off to his loser-ass son or training some random mohawk kid.
Explain the logic in Gohan being a loser when he ended the fight against Vegeta, played a key role in the battle against Frieza, defeated Cell and Bojack, and became the most powerful unfused fighter in the universe in the Buu arc. Also, that mohawk kid is not a random child, he's the reincarnation of Kid Buu. After seeing how he fought Goku in the 28th Budokai battle with no previous training, I'd say he had plenty of potential.
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Post by Duo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:04 pm

Conan wrote:Oh? Then explain to me how Gohan can be 16 if he celebrated his 11th Birthday before the Cell Games (I know, his real birthday was actually a few weeks away, but Chichi thought they should celebrate it while they could) and the Buu arc is an entire 7 years later. How can Gohan be 16 by that logic?
First off, that was a Filler (which I know you don't really fricken care, but whatever) and that clearly must be the dub, because it is outright stated in both the Manga and the Jp Anime that he was 16 when he was on his way to High School. I mean, you can bring up Dubbed Fillers all you want, but it was stated as fact by the right sources, and that's not something you can ignore or negate.

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:16 pm

Duo wrote:First off, that was a Filler (which I know you don't really fricken care, but whatever) and that clearly must be the dub, because it is outright stated in both the Manga and the Jp Anime that he was 16 when he was on his way to High School. I mean, you can bring up Dubbed Fillers all you want, but it was stated as fact by the right sources, and that's not something you can ignore or negate.
Well, I'm an anime purist as it is, so I prefer the anime continuity over the manga, and they're entirely separate canons as it is (exception for the Bardock special I suppose). I guess the whole Birthday incident was a plot hole then, then again I like to go by the notion that Gohan was 18 because of that 11th Birthday. Remember, I'm an anime purist that views things from my own point of view, and in my point of view, Gohan was 18. That's just how I view it, no crime against that, and I'm not gonna try and persuade others to follow my beliefs about it (such as me believing GT is in continuity with the DB and DBZ animes).
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Post by Duo » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:47 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:
Duo wrote:First off, that was a Filler (which I know you don't really fricken care, but whatever) and that clearly must be the dub, because it is outright stated in both the Manga and the Jp Anime that he was 16 when he was on his way to High School. I mean, you can bring up Dubbed Fillers all you want, but it was stated as fact by the right sources, and that's not something you can ignore or negate.
Well, I'm an anime purist as it is, so I prefer the anime continuity over the manga, and they're entirely separate canons as it is (exception for the Bardock special I suppose). I guess the whole Birthday incident was a plot hole then, then again I like to go by the notion that Gohan was 18 because of that 11th Birthday. Remember, I'm an anime purist that views things from my own point of view, and in my point of view, Gohan was 18. That's just how I view it, no crime against that, and I'm not gonna try and persuade others to follow my beliefs about it (such as me believing GT is in continuity with the DB and DBZ animes).
That's respectable. I can live with that.

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Post by desirecampbell » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:00 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:Oh? Then explain to me how Gohan can be 16 if he celebrated his 11th Birthday before the Cell Games (I know, his real birthday was actually a few weeks away, but Chichi thought they should celebrate it while they could) and the Buu arc is an entire 7 years later. How can Gohan be 16 by that logic?
I'm gonna go and use second or third hand info to explain this - so it might be wrong but it's all I know.

757
Sometime in May
Gohan is born.
AGE 0

761
October 12th
Raditz arrives to retrieve his brother.
AGE 4

762
November 3rd
Vegeta and Nappa arrive on Earth.
December 24th
Goku becomes a Super Saiyan and defeats Frieza.
The planet Namek blows up.
AGE 5

764
Some time in August.
Trunks arrives. He kills Cybord Frieza and King Kold.
AGE 7

767
May 12th
All of the Androids appear.
AGE 9
May 16th
Goku and Gohan enter the Room of Spirit and Time.
AGE 10 (his 11th bithday will be withing the next two weeks)

774
March 28th
Gohan finishes the first grade level at Orange Star High School.
April 7th
There's a sighting of the 'Gold Fighter' in Satan City.
Gohan begins the second grade level at Orange Star High School.
He meets Videl.
AGE 17 (which would be 16 if you ignore the ROSAT year)


So, Gohan is 16 because he was born between 17 and 31 May 757 - but he he gained a year in the ROSAT so he should be considered 17 (and would be 18 in a couple months).

-edit- damnit, that took too long, maybe no one cares anymore.

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