Fights (Aspects, Comparisons, Etc.)

[Kaboom]

I don't think there's much to say here that hasn't already been said.

But, I would like to point out that not all of DBZ's later fights had poor choreography or dramatic visual quality. I think I'll point out...

- Goku vs. Cell - Lots of faster-than-visible action in this, but it wasn't what dominated the fight, and it was done well.

- Goku vs "Majin" Vegeta - This fight was awesome, not (just) because of it's huge scale, but because the coreography was excellent (and, for the most part, well-animated), and showed Goku and Vegeta using their skill to fight, not just their raw, planet-destroying power.

- Goku vs Kid Buu - Do I even have to point this out? The coreography and animation were excellent, especially when Goku was fighting at SSj2; though the SSj3 action was great as well.

Hmmm... too much Goku... hold up...

- Mystic Gohan vs Evil Buu - Yeah, pretty much the same. Gohan "pwn3d" Buu, for the most part, with only melee attacks, hardly ever did any uber-fast dashing, and I don't think he used any ki attacks, much less gigantic ones.

[Duo]

I have to agree with Thanos. The Tenshinhan vs. Goku fight, specifically, was one of the most amazing experiences of my life the first time I read it. (I never saw the Anime counterpart, so I cannot compare the two)

[Thanos6]

That was the one where everyone (well, except Man-Wolf) seemed like they had a fairly good shot, that all were about evenly matched in terms of power and that it was pure skill and, yes, luck that determined who won. Even Panputto seemed to be good.

Look at Yamcha's almost casual dismissals by Jackie/Roshi and Shen/Kami, then look at the great fight he gave Tenshinhan in the quarter-final. That alone would be worth the price of admission. He could have had it, too, except for that horrible luck of his (who could predict he could deflect a Kamehameha?).

Kuririn vs. Chaozu was the perfect mix of hard action and hilarious comedy.

Panputto, of course, was doomed from the start, but he put up a good fight and made Goku actually work for it.

Jackie/Roshi vs. the Man-Wolf was the best "non-fight" in the entire manga, perhaps.

Kuririn fought brilliantly the whole tournament, and would have made it to the finals except he didn't know Goku was able to train his tail.

Jackie/Roshi dueling Tenshinhan to a standstill, then forfeiting so he could see how Goku and Tenshinhan, the ultimate Turtle and Crane disciples, would stack up? Brilliance.

And then, of course, there's Goku vs. Tenshinhan. Two perfectly matched fighters, against the most powerful opponent either has yet faced.

Tankobon volumes 5-12 are perhaps the highlight of the whole manga, beginning with Goku first meeting the Red Ribbon Army, through his war with them, then to the group's fight against Baba's fighters, Goku's reunion with Pilaf and Co., and concluding in the best Budokai to grace the pages.

[Smooth Criminal]

That's rather redundant, you know that, right?

Of course the show went from choreography, to what it is now, because it's an attempted conveyance at increasing power, which is something that is difficult when you're "making up" power, that never exists in reality; further when a character is going to fight with someone they don't know, what could possibly make a battle choreographed, in the sense that they could do a series of impressive moves, when they've got to counter-attack an opponent that wants them dead, and not one that wants to knock them out of the ring?
Of course it will lack the finess, because of the intended gravity of the situation. You're taking a situation that began as a performance of skill, and trying to compare it with a situation that is about the safety and well being of the planet the characters are defending; in that, there is a huge difference in the way a fight should be handled, and further along with increases in the characters over-all power, and abilities, you're going to get a distinct lack of it, as well as a more "brute force" aspect, through whatever means possible.

In such a situation, you're going to use whatever is at your disposal to put an end to it, and not think of how "impressive" it's going to look, and least of which how many neat combinations of attacks you can pull off. Hand to hand combat would/should be the last thing on either fighters mind, since they're trying to kill the other, and not make a spectacular viewing experience for a so-called audience. The way battles are played out, with a stake to worry about has a distinct ambience, and tone to them, that tries to set the mood in a semi-logical way.

OK, so the characters got stronger, and because of that TOEI couldn't take the time to choreograph the fight and make it interesting to watch?

What you're saying is kind of silly. Of course the characters aren't concerned about how cool they look while they fight... THEY'RE CHARACTERS.

It doesn't matter to me if they have the power to blow up the earth in a heartbeat, I enjoy watching good fights, not lame 2-frame power clashes. I'm not concerned with how 'impractical' it is for these dude's with the power of the gods to fight at a level where I can see what's going on. I just want a visually entertaining fight.

I'll take a fight from the 22nd Budokai over Goku and Freeza flailing about in the sky any day.

[Smooth Criminal]

Double post.

[lost in thought]

OK, so the characters got stronger, and because of that TOEI couldn't take the time to choreograph the fight and make it interesting to watch?

You miss the concept of artistic exposition, in that when the tone of the series changed, with it their power increased, and further the violence factor. If a battle is choreographed in the same way as such battles from the Tenka'ichi Budoukai, you're going to lose a ton of ballance, in that there will be a lack of definitive example of power, and further when you're NOT in a ring, with RULES, the actions are going to be changed, you're going to have to think from the offensive and defensive sides of both parties in which you're paneling in battle.
Hell, the last battle from the end of DragonBall with Ma Junior was far and away the least choreographed of the battles, because they're trying to show that each character has immense power, and through that power are NOT trying to just test one anothers abilities through out the match.

Further, if you're arguing that they could have expressed the same raw power aspect of battles without sacrificing a choreographed feel [which indeed had to have been, since the latter fights had no rules. Who ever over powers the other, to the point that the other no longer lives, is the winner-- no rules, no 'finess'], I would love to see you express the way to do it in words, because we're working with a show that defies all logic, and with the ability to generate energy, and move quicker than the eye can see, not utilizing these tactics in an attempt to out-power your opponent would be ridiculously laughable; and I don't see how utilizing such would be capable of being 'finessed'.

What you're saying is kind of silly. Of course the characters aren't concerned about how cool they look while they fight... THEY'RE CHARACTERS.

I am making reference, in a small way, situational conflict, in a context setting in real perception. Of course they aren't real, my arguement is that of common sense. Nice try on spinning, though.

It doesn't matter to me if they have the power to blow up the earth in a heartbeat, I enjoy watching good fights, not lame 2-frame power clashes. I'm not concerned with how 'impractical' it is for these dude's with the power of the gods to fight at a level where I can see what's going on. I just want a visually entertaining fight.

You may not care, or be concerned, but as I've said, if you can come up with a logical way to re-represent fights, maintain the power aspect that the latter battles do indeed show, AND retain the finess of the past battles, I am all ears. Seriously.

I'll take a fight from the 22nd Budokai over Goku and Freeza flailing about in the sky any day.

Of course you would, but the problem is that as I've explained-- there is a physical power representation their trying to maintain, which is not only ballanced by the fights themselves but secondary characters.

Also, can you get off your high horse about the Freeza arc? We KNOW it was drug on far longer than it should have, and the arguement is played to death, especially since the fights did get a little better post-Freeza. Maybe not to your quality, but that can't be helped.

[Ultimate Tofu Guy Drift]

I'd have to agree that the 22nd Budokai had excellent fighting. The Yamucha vs Tenshinhan fight is probably my favourite fight of the entire series. An absolutely mind blowing experience.

[desirecampbell]

Lost in Thought is right (and explained it better than I could) when your opponent has the power to blow a planet apart you don't fuck around. Sure you could do a reverse backflip to get away from him, but why bother? Will he be impressed? No. Wil he take this opportuninty to attack you while you're helpless and looking the other way? Yes!

You have to remember that up until the Piccolo fight they hadn't been trying to kill each other. Every fight afterwards was about 'saving the planet' or 'saving your life'.


-edit-
If they had taken the time to 'fancy up' their fighting, it would have ruined the series. You know what show has 'battles' that the fate of the world at stake and still manages to be 'fancy'? Yugioh ( I know that they actually use guns and shit, but in the Dub any instance of hitting each other and weapons are taken out).

"No! You cannot rule the world and plunge humanity into a thousand years of darkness!"
"There's nothing you can do about it, bwahahahaha! Got any... THREES?!"
-long dramatic pause-
"Go. Fish."
"Noooooooooooooooooo! You win this time, but I'll be back."

Wow, that's lame. It certainly shows finese and focuses on skill instead of raw power, but it's stupid. When something important is on the line, you don't follow rules, you do whatever it takes.

[Duo]

"No! You cannot rule the world and plunge humanity into a thousand years of darkness!"
"There's nothing you can do about it, bwahahahaha! Got any... THREES?!"
-long dramatic pause-
"Go. Fish."
"Noooooooooooooooooo! You win this time, but I'll be back."

That definately merits a "Lol".

Just a random side note - but Piccolo did a reverse back flip to dodge one of #17's attacks during their duel.

[Cyberman]

Most fights that are "uncordinated" in my opinion are one-sided fights. Vegeta Vs. Imperfect Cell, for example, got a little repetitive near the end. Equal fights, or nearly equal, such as Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta or Goku Vs. Cell, have great action. I also agree that when you're fighting for your life, you try to get the job done. (unless you're Vegeta).

Ki blasts did get overused in the Cell and Buu sagas, but fighting enemies that can regenerate, what else will you do? This is more of a personal preference, but I LOVE seeing big explosions in fights. Just a thing that tickles my fancy. Like how Gohan fighting Cell created that Kamehameha wave that was shot in the air and that just got bigger and bigger as it hit Cell and how it easily it overpowered Cell's blast.

But that's just me.

[Mystic Kami]

Just a random side note - but Piccolo did a reverse back flip to dodge one of #17's attacks during their duel.

A reverse back flip... Isn't that a front flip?

[Tanooki Kuribo]

A reverse back flip... Isn't that a front flip?

Or just a regular flip.

[Duo]

Sure you could do a reverse backflip to get away from him, but why bother? Will he be impressed? No. Wil he take this opportuninty to attack you while you're helpless and looking the other way? Yes!

Ask the guy who said it first.

[Pedro The Hutt]

I quite like DB's fights over DBZ's as well, as mentioned earlier, there was skill and finesse involved rather than "Graa! Eat my mighty planet obliterating beam!" which in the end, will have no effect on the evil baddie anyway. Not to mention the fights had room to be downright hilarious. Nearly anything involving Jackie Chun comes to mind. Or Kuririn vs. Bacterian.

That said though, it's not that I dislike DBZ's fights, they do have their own appeal. After all there is something awe inspiring about the above mentioned mighty planet obliterating beam™. And then the fact that a character can go right behind his opponent within the blink of an eye, kick him upward, re-appear at the pinnacle of his ascend, punch him diagonally back down and make him painfully create a small crater. Or pinball the poor victim around a bit more. That's a pretty nifty display of sheer power.

[ShadowAssailantX]

In my opinion, it isn't the "lack of choreography" that deter people from enjoying Dragonball Z 's fights as opposed to newer anime's such as Naruto and Bleach, it's the sense of monotony that accompanies the fights as the series goes on. While watching the fights, you always see them use the same few tactics used over and over, such as the unleashing of 1000 Ki blasts which have no effect, or the lightning fast hand to hand combat that gets no where until one or both of the fighters lands an infamous slo-mo hit and causes them to recoil and start a verbal exchange...

For the most part, this is because of all the extra fighting in the anime, necessary for filler purposes. Let's say the fight starts at point A. If the first injury is sustained at point B, three panels later in the manga, any filler added between the two pints is meaningless, because no matter how much damage it appears has been dealt, they'll still have the same amount of power they would have if that 30 second exchange hadn't occured. This gives the characters an illusion of having much greater stamina than they actually do, and attributes to the "ridiculous" vibe that the fights get in the show.

Some people will say all this makes the show more epic, and some'll say that it makes it last way too long, but the success of the show speaks for itself.

[Jerseymilk]

In my opinion, it isn't the "lack of choreography" that deter people from enjoying Dragonball Z 's fights as opposed to newer anime's such as Naruto and Bleach, it's the sense of monotony that accompanies the fights as the series goes on. While watching the fights, you always see them use the same few tactics used over and over, such as the unleashing of 1000 Ki blasts which have no effect, or the lightning fast hand to hand combat that gets no where until one or both of the fighters lands an infamous slo-mo hit and causes them to recoil and start a verbal exchange...

For the most part, this is because of all the extra fighting in the anime, necessary for filler purposes. Let's say the fight starts at point A. If the first injury is sustained at point B, three panels later in the manga, any filler added between the two pints is meaningless, because no matter how much damage it appears has been dealt, they'll still have the same amount of power they would have if that 30 second exchange hadn't occured. This gives the characters an illusion of having much greater stamina than they actually do, and attributes to the "ridiculous" vibe that the fights get in the show.

Some people will say all this makes the show more epic, and some'll say that it makes it last way too long, but the success of the show speaks for itself.

DBZ=Naruto=Bleach=One Piece=etc.

[lost in thought]

Yeah, let's try not to compare the fighting in Z' to other shows, because it's irrelevant-- and most of the shows it's compared to were made years after it ended. It's a ridiculous comparison that holds no conjectural value.

But, for consistentcy, a lot of mangaka today were inspired by Toriyama-sensei, so in the end, a lot of the comparisons today made against Z' are most likely to be by artists heavily inspired by his work. So it's not like the apple will fall too far from the tree.

t's the sense of monotony that accompanies the fights as the series goes on. While watching the fights, you always see them use the same few tactics used over and over, such as the unleashing of 1000 Ki blasts which have no effect, or the lightning fast hand to hand combat that gets no where until one or both of the fighters lands an infamous slo-mo hit and causes them to recoil and start a verbal exchange...

It -may- seem monotonous, but consider it logically; in a situation as extravagant as the ones we're treated to by the series', we're shown the tactics employed by the fighters for whatever cause. In these situations the stake is death, and because of that, especially if you make real world comparisons, someone isn't going to change their tactics just to add some 'spontenaity' to the fight; they're going to test their opponents limits, and then try to overwhelm them. It's the "size-up" leading to a full and frontal assault.

That's just how you go about that sort of thing. If you're in need of changes in performance, and tactical nuances, you're looking at the wrong tree; and should be focusing firmly on the Tenka'ichi Budoukai, because as I've said, this isn't about finess in any sense, it's about simulated violence in an attempt to convey the situations gravity. It's a plot device as much as it is a 'fight scene'.

[Vhanos]

I can forgive the show for doing the stuff some of you here are criticising. Plus I don't mind them that much either. The most important thing to me is delivery. That is what I like about the DB/DBZ fights. It always give you more than you can ask for. Sure there where times when your patience is tested and it makes you want it to hurry up to the fighting. Like when Piccolo and Frieza were staring down or when Goku and Cell are squaring off and they show Mr. Satan talking. But when the action starts going it delivers. Problem I'm having with animes like Naruto and a few others is they hype up a fight and make it inviting but fail to deliver. Sometimes the action gets stagnate. Something would happen like the characters do surprise attack after surprise attack and try to be all fancy with their techniques. Or characters being overly dramatic and not much action or fighting is going on. Those to me are not great fun and not that entertaining to watch.

DB and DBZ fights? I don't know about anyone else but I like the fighting in DBZ more and better than DB. Don't get me wrong I liked DB's fighting (My favorite was the Goku vs Piccolo fight 23rd budokai and Goku vs Tien 22nd budokai). But I found the fighting in Z to be much more entertaining and rockin. I agree with SSj Kaboom. Those fights listed were good. They were the best and add the 17 vs Piccolo to that. Those fights were just awesome. The good fights in DBZ were more excitng and thrilling to watch.

The movies are nice to watch. The action gets going faster and there isn't long powerups that happen like it does in the tv series.

[desirecampbell]

The thing about Naruto's fights is that they try to defeat the other opponent but not always kill them (they eventually start doing that though). They try a lot of 'sneak attacks' because those are the best way to defeat your opponent while putting the least amount of danger on your own life. In Naruto one single attack could kill, well that's what they say - there's not nearly enough death in Naruto.

In DBZ, the characters can't just 'sneak attack' each other when the enemy has plans other than just killing them. In Naruto there aren't many fights that aren't centered around "We must kill that ninja child". In DBZ most fights are about "holy crap he's going to blow up the planet/kill everyone/take my son, we have to stop him." If they sneak around the enemy might carry out whatever his actual job is before the heroes get to attack.

Plus, DBZ characters take a lot more to kill than one sneak attack.

[Snail]

'Some people will say all this makes the show more epic, and some'll say that it makes it last way too long, but the success of the show speaks for itself.'

A statement by 'ShadowAssailantX'. That's basically it, the success of the show speaks for itself! I believe that if we love it we should remain ignorant of any further complaints by others, about how repititive certain battles were.

On a side note, I actually really enjoyed the 19 episode, [pardon me if the number of episodes are incorrect] battle between Goku and Frieza