Vegito vs. Gogeta - A controversial debate

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri May 26, 2006 12:56 pm

Sato rice and Sato heaven are my favorite characters!

Post by **desirecampbell** » Fri May 26, 2006 5:26 pm

I can't follow any of that crazy Engrish

Heh, I'm the kind of guy tat would take all teir time doing that.

t0ffe3m4n · Post by **t0ffe3m4n** » Fri May 26, 2006 8:39 pm

Super Saiyan 4 "not that much stronger" than Super Saiyan 3!?

Watch the Baby Vegita fight on Tsufuru again..

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Fri May 26, 2006 10:22 pm

This thread annoys me. There I said it.

Go Vegetto!

I'm sorry for not contributing any facts/evidence about who is the stronger one. This discussion is just a little ridiculous, and the main points have already been pointed out.

Let's just end this dammit.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Sat May 27, 2006 1:05 am

And... Lock.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat May 27, 2006 1:58 am

BrollysKin wrote:And... Lock.

Why? That whole crazy Engrish translated information is pretty interesting. If I ever want a headache, I'll try to paraphrase it better as to understand it.

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:35 am

Is it really that important to know which of the two is better if we concider if it's impossible for Vegetto & Gogeta to exist at the same point in time?

Although that said, if we would take out a fancy yet improbable cloning machine and clone Vegeta & Son Goku... and somehow convince the four to fight each other in fused forms... Vegetto would probably win if we can believe what Kaio-sama had to say about Potarra being a more powerful (and permanent) fusion than a dance fusion. If not, Vegetto could just go into hiding for half an hour.

But since it's not going to happen outside of Budokai 3 it's kind of silly to even discuss it. =D

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat May 27, 2006 12:31 pm

Steven Perry wrote:Who would spend all of their time doing something so silly? [/size]

Er... I think the blog entry is less silly than your criticism of its Google translation... What did you expect?

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:20 pm

End this madness!

veshira · Post by **veshira** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:48 pm

I have a question for the crazy Japanese person:

Why is Vegeta fusing with a rice demon named Sato?

But yes, maybe this should be locked...

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun May 28, 2006 2:04 am

veshira wrote:Why is Vegeta fusing with a rice demon named Sato?

the [aruteimetsuto] Sato rice absorption demon human [buu]

[aruteimetsuto] = Ultimate
Sato rice = Gohan
demon human = Majin
[buu] = Boo

-> Majin-Boo after his absorption of Ultimate Gohan.

Again, please don't blame the writer of that blog for Google's weird translation.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:49 am

Indeed. Google and bable fish translations are good for laugh, and a vague concept of what's what, but that's it.

Anyway, I did a whole math schematic some time back comparing the Fusion's using their Z appearances as base material. Going by the fact that Potara fusion is more powerful* than using the dance, by nature and principal, as well as comparing the 'power needed to win' of the two in their fights (Janemba and Buu respectively)** it's easy to see who is more powerful. Vegetto. Hell, based on the math work up I did back then Super Vegetto in Z was three times the power of SSJ4 Gogeta in GT.

*The fusers powers don't have to match, thus a great chunk of power is not simply 'left out' of the fusion. Also, it is stated that the Potara fusion is more complete, this can be seen by the fact that the fusion doesn't run out. This means the new form is more stable and, by princpal, this would make it more powerful than it's dance counterpart which would be less stable.

**Gogeta was required to use SSJ to be strong enough to defeat Janemba, an opponent clearly much weaker than Super Buu3. However, it is stated by the Elder Kai that Vegetto, in base, could have easily defeated Super Buu3. His entire reason for transforming was to tick Buu off into absorbing him to rescue the others. This shows that Vegetto is clearly the stronger of the two during the Z Era, thus it would hold into the GT Era as well.

t0ffe3m4n · Post by **t0ffe3m4n** » Sun May 28, 2006 4:24 pm

Xyex wrote:Anyway, I did a whole math schematic some time back comparing the Fusion's using their Z appearances as base material. Going by the fact that Potara fusion is more powerful* than using the dance, by nature and principal, as well as comparing the 'power needed to win' of the two in their fights (Janemba and Buu respectively)** it's easy to see who is more powerful. Vegetto. Hell, based on the math work up I did back then Super Vegetto in Z was three times the power of SSJ4 Gogeta in GT.

Huh?

This doesn't make any sense at all. How come you've based your conclusion using the Janemba fight as the benchmark? How does this make Vegito x3 more powerful than SSJ4 Gogeta? Where are your figures???

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun May 28, 2006 6:18 pm

Xyex wrote:Indeed. Google and bable fish translations are good for laugh, and a vague concept of what's what, but that's it.

Anyway, I did a whole math schematic some time back comparing the Fusion's using their Z appearances as base material. Going by the fact that Potara fusion is more powerful* than using the dance, by nature and principal, as well as comparing the 'power needed to win' of the two in their fights (Janemba and Buu respectively)** it's easy to see who is more powerful. Vegetto. Hell, based on the math work up I did back then Super Vegetto in Z was three times the power of SSJ4 Gogeta in GT.

*The fusers powers don't have to match, thus a great chunk of power is not simply 'left out' of the fusion. Also, it is stated that the Potara fusion is more complete, this can be seen by the fact that the fusion doesn't run out. This means the new form is more stable and, by princpal, this would make it more powerful than it's dance counterpart which would be less stable.

**Gogeta was required to use SSJ to be strong enough to defeat Janemba, an opponent clearly much weaker than Super Buu3. However, it is stated by the Elder Kai that Vegetto, in base, could have easily defeated Super Buu3. His entire reason for transforming was to tick Buu off into absorbing him to rescue the others. This shows that Vegetto is clearly the stronger of the two during the Z Era, thus it would hold into the GT Era as well.

Firstly, I want to point out that the 'more complete' means nothing interms of strength of the fusion. It's simply 'more complete' because it doesn't runn on a time limit, it by no means implies the potara fusion is 'stronger'.

Secondly, how would Janemba be 'clearly much weaker than Super Buu3(?)' ?

And there's nothing to say Gogeta needed to use SSj to defeat Janemba, we don't see a regular Gogeta stuggling to win, then forcing himself to use SSj.

I'm also very interested to see anything on this "kôka wa Fusion ijô" quote. If it's translation is 'greater than-' or 'more complete than-"
It would settle that part

But, again, there's no way to know how much more powerful Goku and Vegeta were in GT compared to what they were in the end of Z. Even if we knew that we still don't know how much stronger (if any) the Potara fusion is compared to the dance fusion. Beyound that we don't know how much more powerful SSj4 is compared to SSj.

The "math" would work out like this:

A fusion is stronger than both the warriors combined (I believe that's a direct quote, correct me If I'm wrong)
Fusion = (A + B) x type

Assuming that the Potara fusion is "stronger" than the dance-type.
type_Potara = type_Dance x C

And SSj4 is obviously stronger than SSj1, how much exactly is unknown.
SSj4 = SSj x D

Goku and Vegeta's strength are important:
Goku (Z) = g1
Vegeta (Z) = v1
And they're stronger in GT, so:
Goku (GT) = g1 x E
Vegeta (GT) = v1 x F

Putting it all together gives us:
SSj Vegetto = (g1 + v1) x (type_dance x C) x SSj
SSj4 Gogeta = ( (g1 x E) + (v1 x F) ) x (type_dance) x (SSj x D)

Highlighted in red are the parts of the equation that are greater than their counterparts.

Neither one is 'clearly' greater than the other. And without actual values to place in the equation there's no way to figure out whose's stronger.

Of course, if Potara turns out to be no different than dance-type fusion, the equations changes to:

SSj Vegetto = (g1 + v1) x type_dance x SSj
SSj4 Gogeta = ( (g1 x E) + (v1 x F) ) x (type_dance) x (SSj x D)

And that clearly shows that Gogeta is more powerful.

Steven Perry · Post by **Steven Perry** » Mon May 29, 2006 7:11 am

Xyex wrote:Anyway, I did a whole math schematic some time back comparing the Fusion's using their Z appearances as base material. Going by the fact that Potara fusion is more powerful than using the dance, by nature and principal, as well as comparing the 'power needed to win' of the two in their fights (Janemba and Buu respectively) it's easy to see who is more powerful. Vegetto. Hell, based on the math work up I did back then Super Vegetto in Z was three times the power of SSJ4 Gogeta in GT.

What were your figures? How'd you come to that conclusion? I still believe you, though.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon May 29, 2006 8:16 am

Xyex wrote:Indeed. Google and bable fish translations are good for laugh, and a vague concept of what's what, but that's it.

Anyway, I did a whole math schematic some time back comparing the Fusion's using their Z appearances as base material. Going by the fact that Potara fusion is more powerful* than using the dance, by nature and principal, as well as comparing the 'power needed to win' of the two in their fights (Janemba and Buu respectively)** it's easy to see who is more powerful. Vegetto. Hell, based on the math work up I did back then Super Vegetto in Z was three times the power of SSJ4 Gogeta in GT.

*The fusers powers don't have to match, thus a great chunk of power is not simply 'left out' of the fusion. Also, it is stated that the Potara fusion is more complete, this can be seen by the fact that the fusion doesn't run out. This means the new form is more stable and, by princpal, this would make it more powerful than it's dance counterpart which would be less stable.

**Gogeta was required to use SSJ to be strong enough to defeat Janemba, an opponent clearly much weaker than Super Buu3. However, it is stated by the Elder Kai that Vegetto, in base, could have easily defeated Super Buu3. His entire reason for transforming was to tick Buu off into absorbing him to rescue the others. This shows that Vegetto is clearly the stronger of the two during the Z Era, thus it would hold into the GT Era as well.

I completely agree with you Xvex. Very well put, at that.

But it probably won't help here. Those who disagree resemble Nazi's in how strong they hold their opinions. A pity.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon May 29, 2006 8:18 am

This doesn't make any sense at all. How come you've based your conclusion using the Janemba fight as the benchmark? How does this make Vegito x3 more powerful than SSJ4 Gogeta? Where are your figures???

I see where your confusion's comming from. I didn't use the Jenemba fight as a benchmark to show that Vegetto's stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta. I used it as a starting point to determine the power of the fusion itself so I could extrapolate SSJ4 Gogeta's power. Determining the ammount of strength gained by the dance, in an area where there's some evidence as to the power in comparison to others, makes for finding the power later a bit easier. It's not a direct thing, but a source of information for extrapolation.

Firstly, I want to point out that the 'more complete' means nothing interms of strength of the fusion. It's simply 'more complete' because it doesn't runn on a time limit, it by no means implies the potara fusion is 'stronger'.

I'd like to point out the flaw in this. As I said, a more complete fusion = a more stable fusion = a more powerful fusion. How about a real world example? Alright, build a chair that's meant to have 4 legs. Now, don't put on the front left or rear right leg. Not very stable or strong, is it? Now add the other two legs. Voila, stronger chair because it is now complete!

Secondly, how would Janemba be 'clearly much weaker than Super Buu3(?)' ?

And there's nothing to say Gogeta needed to use SSj to defeat Janemba, we don't see a regular Gogeta stuggling to win, then forcing himself to use SSj.

Exactly. We don't see base Gogeta. Gogeta transformed upon fusion. One thing we can take as fact from Toei, they don't use a form unless it's required.

And how could you possible contend that Janemba is any where near the power of Super Buu3? Somewhere between the likes of Kid Buu and Super Buu, sure, but no where near Super Buu 3 or Goku would have been obliterated in 0.2 seconds.

Also, your math is flawed. Using g1 x E and v1 x F would produce incorrect results. You would require a single variable for those, namely g2 and v2. Also, it would not be g2 + v2 for the fusion, as the stronger person must reduce their power. So, assuming Goku is the stronger person the formula would actually be v2(2) x (type_dance). Plus, you would not mutliple in the power of (SSJ x D), as that is included in the g2 and v2 variables since the fusers are already in SSJ4.

What were your figures? How'd you come to that conclusion? I still believe you, though.

I no longer have those numbers, unfortunately. That computer has since found its way into scrap heap. I can't remember the specifics of what I used either, anymore. I've tried a few times but I seem to be missing an element somewhere...

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:40 pm

I'd like to point out the flaw in this. As I said, a more complete fusion = a more stable fusion = a more powerful fusion. How about a real world example? Alright, build a chair that's meant to have 4 legs. Now, don't put on the front left or rear right leg. Not very stable or strong, is it? Now add the other two legs. Voila, stronger chair because it is now complete!

I know that sounds right - but it's not. It's just another way of saying 'more complete'. It's "stronger" because it doesn't degrade, and lasts longer. But there's no reason to think that kind of logic carries through to other things in the real world, let alone DragonBall. I mean, that chair is probably a lot 'stronger' than a couple grams of cesium - but I'd rather be hit with the chair

Exactly. We don't see base Gogeta. Gogeta transformed upon fusion. One thing we can take as fact from Toei, they don't use a form unless it's required.

What? Why would we assume that? Because Toei is always completly accurate.

And how could you possible contend that Janemba is any where near the power of Super Buu3? Somewhere between the likes of Kid Buu and Super Buu, sure, but no where near Super Buu 3 or Goku would have been obliterated in 0.2 seconds.

Um, I actually don't know which Buu you're talking about with all them fancy numbers

As far as I can tell, you're saying Janemba is weaker than the first Super Buu, but stronger than Kid Buu. And your standard Super Buu 3, refers to Super Buu (w/ Piccolo, Trunks, Goten, Gohan). Am I right?
Assuming I am, why would you assume Janemba's weaker than Super Buu? Or even, why kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu? I'm pretty rusty on the Buu saga, and I can't remember anything that even hinted at kid Buu being weaker than Super Buu.

Also, your math is flawed. Using g1 x E and v1 x F would produce incorrect results. You would require a single variable for those, namely g2 and v2.

No, The point is to have g1 and v1 be base (lower) values. And E and F be 'some positive real number'. It'd be fine to use g2 and v2, but they would be meaningless without referencing them to g1 and v1. I suppose I could have said Goku (GT) = g2 = g1 x E, but it would be useless to include an extra variable for no reason.
The reason there are both E and F variables is because Goku and Vegeta's strength in GT (for the purpose of this equation) are considered equal. I suppose I should've actually said that, but I'm bad at explanations

Plus, you would not mutliple in the power of (SSJ x D), as that is included in the g2 and v2 variables since the fusers are already in SSJ4.

Actually, you almost certainly would. We see every fusioned warrior have fussess of one SSj level transform to another durring fusion. There's no reason to think that the fusioned warrior should be treated as anything except an exceptionally powerful Saiyan (in regards to SSj levels).

And the point of having the SSj power increase as a separate part was to show the many unknown factors.
Also, We know that Vegetto can go SSj - we assume he can go SSj2 (as both Goku and Vegeta can) but it is unclear weather he can go SSj3 (as only Goku can). The point here is that what SSj level he uses is trivial because Gogeta can achieve SSj4, which Vegetto cannot.

The point of the equations was to show that C (a positive real number) would have to compinsate for D, E, and F. So, for Vegetto to be stronger, the Potara fusion would have to be so strong as to balance out Goku and Vegeta's strength increase up until GT, and the increased power bonus of SSj4.

ItsAllGood · Post by **ItsAllGood** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:53 am

Holy Equations Batman! So now we have a verifiable formula to work with

Anyhow, I noticed that Super Vegetto in Budokai 3 actually has 7 full powerbars whilst in this form, while Gogeta has 6 and a half. Perhaps we could take this into consideration?

Steven Perry · Post by **Steven Perry** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:52 am

ItsAllGood wrote:Holy Equations Batman! So now we have a verifiable formula to work with

Anyhow, I noticed that Super Vegetto in Budokai 3 actually has 7 full powerbars whilst in this form, while Gogeta has 6 and a half. Perhaps we could take this into consideration?

I don't really understand these equations...

But I still want to know the answer! The suspense is killing me! Say something, one of you smart guys.

I never noticed that Gogeta had 6.5 power bars! Budokai 3 is usually accurate, so maybe Vegito is stronger?

Kanzenshuu

Vegito vs. Gogeta - A controversial debate

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