Broly Question

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:20 pm

Drunken Master wrote:They were pretty much equal to SSj Gohan before he died.

No way. SSJ Future Gohan was pathetically weak.

Casual Matt · Post by **Casual Matt** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:26 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Drunken Master wrote:They were pretty much equal to SSj Gohan before he died.
No way. SSJ Future Gohan was pathetically weak.

What eveidence do you have to back up that remark?

He seemed to be on par with #17. I'd probably say he was about the same strength as Piccolo after refusing with Kami-sama.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:57 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Drunken Master wrote:They were pretty much equal to SSj Gohan before he died.
No way. SSJ Future Gohan was pathetically weak.

So weak he could only take on ONE android one-armed. :rolleyes:

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:59 pm

Yeah, didn't he blow BOTH androids away in a ki battle?

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:21 pm

Well, when fighting #17 one-armed, #17 told Gohan he was only using half his power., and skipped all the way to after his death. So...compared to the Artificial Humans, Gohan was somewhat weak, but then again, was at a disadvantage both times before and after losing his arm. The first being that it was 2v1, and the other that it was 2v1 with one arm missing.

Maker777 · Post by **Maker777** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:44 am

I like to think if Gohan had BOTH arms he would of creamed those androids.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:41 am

The Lecherous Muten Roshi wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Drunken Master wrote:They were pretty much equal to SSj Gohan before he died.
No way. SSJ Future Gohan was pathetically weak.
What eveidence do you have to back up that remark?

Future #17 kills SSJ Gohan by himself.

SSJ Trunks is stronger than SSJ Gohan, since he says he can hold his own against both future androids.

When Trunks goes SSJ against Freeza, Kid Gohan believes it's Goku because his ki is the same as SSJ Goku's on Namek.

So, SSJ Future Gohan is weaker than SSJ Goku was on Namek.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:00 pm

Rocketman wrote:Future #17 kills SSJ Gohan by himself.

Huh? I don't remember it like that at all. But, then again, it's been years...

Rocketman wrote:SSJ Trunks is stronger than SSJ Gohan, since he says he can hold his own against both future androids.

With two arms, and a sword. We see Gohan holding his own against a single android, with his one arm. While Gohan may not have been strong enough to defeat both androids himself, he could certainly handle one easily.

Rocketman wrote:When Trunks goes SSJ against Freeza, Kid Gohan believes it's Goku because his ki is the same as SSJ Goku's on Namek.
So, SSJ Future Gohan is weaker than SSJ Goku was on Namek.

Not necessarily. (Future) Gohan's inablility to survive a double android attack proably stems from the one arm thing, not being too weak.
Secondly, (young) Gohan doesn't say "he has the same power level as Dad, it must be Dad!" when he senses Trunks, he could simply assume it's Goku because the energy signature feels similar (as we were shown is possible later in the saga) and is huge comparred to everyone else he'd ever sensed.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:19 pm

Why do people hate movie 11? Its clearly one of the better DBZ movies. It has a fun action filled plot that doesn't run too long. It also lets the b team have the movie spotlight which is a nice change of pace.

So seriously I'm begging everyone, please give a good reason for movie 11 being so reviled.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:22 pm

First off, apologies for the scanslations, as I don't have my manga here.

desirecampbell wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Future #17 kills SSJ Gohan by himself.
Huh? I don't remember it like that at all. But, then again, it's been years...

#18 was just watching.

Rocketman wrote:SSJ Trunks is stronger than SSJ Gohan, since he says he can hold his own against both future androids.
With two arms, and a sword. We see Gohan holding his own against a single android, with his one arm. While Gohan may not have been strong enough to defeat both androids himself, he could certainly handle one easily.

No, we see Gohan wetting himself over realizing #17 is at least twice as strong as he is and then dying from a single android.

Trunks, on the other hand:

Rocketman wrote:When Trunks goes SSJ against Freeza, Kid Gohan believes it's Goku because his ki is the same as SSJ Goku's on Namek.
So, SSJ Future Gohan is weaker than SSJ Goku was on Namek.
Not necessarily. (Future) Gohan's inablility to survive a double android attack proably stems from the one arm thing, not being too weak.
Secondly, (young) Gohan doesn't say "he has the same power level as Dad, it must be Dad!" when he senses Trunks, he could simply assume it's Goku because the energy signature feels similar (as we were shown is possible later in the saga) and is huge comparred to everyone else he'd ever sensed.

If anybody's got the original pages, feel free to post them.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:16 pm

Rocketman wrote:*pwns Desiré*

Well, fuck me sideways.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:27 pm

Eh, we need some viz scans. Those net translated ones have some poor translations sometimes, and I'm 100% positive that there's a chance those translated statements aren't too accurate...Like the holding back more than half strength and same size ki statements.

Doesn't Gohan die from a double volley of ki shots from both androids, and not a single attack by #17?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:11 pm

Drunken Master wrote:Doesn't Gohan die from a double volley of ki shots from both androids, and not a single attack by #17?

In Toei-land, yes. In Akira Toriyama's Dragonball, no.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:19 pm

Trunks: The Lone Warrior (Manga Special Chapter) and "History of Trunks" (Can't recall the real name) tell 2 very different stories, to be completely honest. In the original Manga, Trunks is Super Saiyan before Gohan dies and Gohan's death is never shown other than that last shot of #17 charging at him.

Obviously, the Anime version changes this...a lot.

Also, the first 2 fanslation scans have accurate dialogue to the Viz version, but the last scan is slightly different, as the word "size" is never mentioned in the Viz version in regard to Trunks' Ki.

"That's the same Ki as Dad had that time!!"

Now, I can understand why the Fanslator changed it, which is because he had an agenda to "prove" Ssj Trunks was equal in strength to Ssj Goku (on Namek) which is a fairly common debate amongst power level discussions.

The Chibi Kiriyama · Post by **The Chibi Kiriyama** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:40 pm

To answer the first question, I suppose Toei wanted to either leave it as a possibility or to just tantalize the fanbase. I'm glad we weren't accosted to a Movie 12 with that plot- I 'enjoyed' enough screams of "Kakarotto!" in 8 and 10 for a lifetime. I'm almost 100% sure they would have shown Goku going SS2 in it just to make it 'official'.

As for the latter topic, 17 beat SS Gohan when he lost his arm without even using half his power. If you look at where Gohan stood even afterwards and leave a gap large enough for the present androids to be noticeably stronger than the ones of the future he doesn't fare well in comparison.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:16 pm

Well, I stand corrected.

veshira · Post by **veshira** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:44 pm

I don't have a scanner right now, but I have all the pages of manga Rocketman posted with Viz's translations. Yay for not-flipped!

First Page: Mirai Gohan vs. #17
Can't find it. What chapters was it printed between?

Second Page: After Androids PWN'D Z-tachi
Panel 2:
Piccolo: Forget about it. Trunks was a Super Saiyan and he= was felled in one blow... You would've made no difference.

Panel 3:
Tenshinhan: This is the being who killed Freeza... And even he was powerless against the Androids...

Panel 4:
Tenshinhan: We've got to face facts! Goku is powerful... But he's not so different from Trunks or Vegeta! We can't win!! Not even with Goku...

Panel 5:
Trunks: ...They were... A... a little different from the Androids I knew... But they weren't... that terribly strong... I... I could put up a decent fight by myself...

Third Page: Trunks Transforms
Panel 3:
Gohan: I-it's Dad!!! That's the same chi as Dad had that time!!
Kuririn: Y-you mean...

Post by **desirecampbell** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:10 am

So, point one (the androids were far stronger than Gohan): true, checked, double-checked.

Point two (Trunks is stronger now than Gohan when he died): true, check, double-checked.

Point three (Trunks being stronger than Goku was on Namek): still checking. All we know is that Gohan said his energy was 'the same'. Nothing specific at all. Unless we can get some extra information out of the original Japanese, I think we're stuck on the fence with this one.

Well, except for that "killing Freeza" part. That kind of make me lean to one side.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:44 am

veshira wrote:I don't have a scanner right now, but I have all the pages of manga Rocketman posted with Viz's translations. Yay for not-flipped!

First Page: Mirai Gohan vs. #17
Can't find it. What chapters was it printed between?

Trunks' Story is at the end of the volume that has SSj Gohan and Cell on the cover.

Point three (Trunks being stronger than Goku was on Namek): still checking. All we know is that Gohan said his energy was 'the same'. Nothing specific at all. Unless we can get some extra information out of the original Japanese, I think we're stuck on the fence with this one.

Well, except for that "killing Freeza" part. That kind of make me lean to one side.

Well, we do know that Goku could block Trunks' sword effortlessly. Of course, they weren't really fighting, but still.

Even if Trunks isn't the same strength as Namek SSJ Goku, he's not very much stronger. Which still makes Future SSJ Gohan pathetic.

GI_Judd2287 · Post by **GI_Judd2287** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:27 pm

I think it's fairly obvious that Future Gohan was stronger than Future Trunks before he went back in time. In the Trunks TV special, you get the impression that Future Gohan could take down at least one of the Androids. He's even managed to put up a pretty good fight against BOTH of them with ONE ARM. In the special, when Future Trunks fights them after becoming a SSJ, he doesn't even land so much as a scratch on them.

Also to answer the original topic, Goku would kick the snot out of Broli. At this point in time he should have reached SSJ 3 while training in the afterlife.