Broly Question

[Maker777]

Ok.
In the Movie/TV special of Histoy of Trunks both androids kill Gohan.
Both 17 and 18 were in the air shooting ki blasts at them.
And yeah thats all i can think of to type.

[GI_Judd2287]

Yes, both Androids killed Future Gohan, I was just pointing out that Future Gohan was still able to remotely able to defend himself sans one arm. Future Trunks was unable to do that with two arms. Future Gohan is clearly the stronger of the two (at that time).

[Rocketman]

Yes, both Androids killed Future Gohan, I was just pointing out that Future Gohan was still able to remotely able to defend himself sans one arm. Future Trunks was unable to do that with two arms. Future Gohan is clearly the stronger of the two (at that time).

In the fanciful world of Toei with gumdrop clouds and staring matches. Not in the real DBZ.

[Duo]

Yes, both Androids killed Future Gohan, I was just pointing out that Future Gohan was still able to remotely able to defend himself sans one arm. Future Trunks was unable to do that with two arms. Future Gohan is clearly the stronger of the two (at that time).

In the fanciful world of Toei with gumdrop clouds and staring matches. Not in the real DBZ.

Well, it seems neither of them read the last page where we explained that the events played out significantly differently in the original Manga, and are now making themselves look a bit incapable of having the patience to read an entire thread before posting.

[GI_Judd2287]

Toei with gumdrop clouds and staring matches. Not in the real DBZ.

The "real DBZ" your referring to was never called "DBZ". The comic was always called Dragon Ball, but I'm sure you already knew that.

Actually, I did read both of your posts and the scenes in question in the manga. You claim that the scene in the TV special didn't play out like the one in the comic. But it did for the most part. The only real difference in that particular scene was Future Trunks didn't go SSJ. The rest was just filler, but it doesn't contradict anything in the original comic.

Future Trunks says "Those ones weren't... that particularly strong... I... I could put up a decent fight by myself." This is in Vizs' translation. He's just illustrating how much stronger they are. If they were the Androids from Future Trunks' timeline, he, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc. teamed up would have no trouble taking them down.

I'm not trying to sound like an asshole, (and if I am I apologize) but what you claimed to be true wasn't necesscerily a fact.

[Victator Supreme]

Well you know, the Trunks special is one of the rare occasions when Toei's version was better than Toriyama.

[GI_Judd2287]

Also to those people who say that all filler is completely non canon, this little tidbit is proof that filler CAN BE PART OF THE STORY when it doesn't contradict the comic:



This panel was imitating a scene from the Bardock TV special, straight out of "Toei-land". I assume you "regulars" already know this stuff, I'm just using it illustrating my point.

[Xyex]

Wow, got several things I want to cover here....

I really doubt that Trunks had to go SSJ to defeat his set of androids. Keep in mind his androids were weaker and he spent at least two days in the room of spirit and time, so his strength should surpass when he was an SSJ fighting Freeza at the very least.

I really doubt that Trunks could have taken a finger flick from the Androids and survived if in base. We do not know for a fact that his Androids were weaker than the ones from the series time-line. We know that they felt weaker to him. But we do not know if they were holding back against him as they had against Gohan.

No way. SSJ Future Gohan was pathetically weak.

Buh?

Future #17 kills SSJ Gohan by himself.

And Android 18 could have anhiliated Vegeta when they first fought, and everyone else there, if she'd felt like it.

SSJ Trunks is stronger than SSJ Gohan, since he says he can hold his own against both future androids.

He says he can only for a time. And, as I said previously, we don't know if they were at full power during those encounters or not.

When Trunks goes SSJ against Freeza, Kid Gohan believes it's Goku because his ki is the same as SSJ Goku's on Namek.

Not really. He just recognizes the feeling of it being the same as Goku's. That's not proof of the size. However, what is proof of the size is how easily Future Trunks dispatches of an even stronger Freeza than the one Goku struggled against on Namek.

Well, we do know that Goku could block Trunks' sword effortlessly. Of course, they weren't really fighting, but still.

Even if Trunks isn't the same strength as Namek SSJ Goku, he's not very much stronger. Which still makes Future SSJ Gohan pathetic.

Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong! First of all, Trunks deals with Freeza without even trying. SSJ Goku on Namek had to work for it and this Freeza is even stronger. Therefor, Trunks is decently more powerful than Freeza. Secondly, Goku was obviously at least as much stronger than Trunks as Trunks was over Freeza since he dealt with his sword attacks so easily.

As for Future Gohan, again, you have no real way to guage how much power he has. If you wish to cite the manga as you have done before, that makes Gohan far STRONGER than Trunks. Why? Gohan, in base, was able to spar with SSJ Trunks without needing to transform.

In the fanciful world of Toei with gumdrop clouds and staring matches. Not in the real DBZ.

You don't know how the fight played out. Unless, of course, you have access to some pages that no one else showed that show us exactly how the fight went and prove that 18 never stepped in to help 17 at all between that pannel where he charges in and when he's killed.

Well you know, the Trunks special is one of the rare occasions when Toei's version was better than Toriyama.

Agreed. Especially the handling of Trunks being an SSJ.

Anyway. As for my own thoughts. I say that the Androids of the present and the future are of equal power. The ones in the present just haven't taken to holding back yet. Trunks simply doesn't know they were holding back in his time.

[Victator Supreme]

I got the feeling Super Saiyan Goku was playing with Freeza. There seemed to be a huge gap in their power levals. The anime having to kill time to stay ahead of Toriyams makes it appear they were closer in strength. Simular to how Pre Super Saiyan Goku appears to be almost as strong as Freeza in the anime. When in the manga he was completely outmatched.

[Mr.Piccolo]

I got the feeling Super Saiyan Goku was playing with Freeza. There seemed to be a huge gap in their power levals. The anime having to kill time to stay ahead of Toriyams makes it appear they were closer in strength. Simular to how Pre Super Saiyan Goku appears to be almost as strong as Freeza in the anime. When in the manga he was completely outmatched.

The way I see it, especially in the anime, when Freeza went "100%", he was a little bit too much for Goku. If you remember he beat out Goku's kamehameha as well. But once Freeza became worn out, it was pretty much Goku's fight. I'm a bit old-school in the fact that I still follow powerlevels. So let me give a little sample:

Super Goku 11,500,000
Freeza (70%) 8,400,000
Freeza (100%) 12,000,000
Freeza (Battle Worn) 10,000,000

A nod to myfavoritegames.com for some info on that. I'll just point out power levels aren't too official at this point, but it makes the series a bit easier to understand.

*Looks at Xyex's post* Wow. Looks like he/she just pwned everybody and I have a bad feeling I'm next..

[Rocketman]

Future #17 kills SSJ Gohan by himself.

And Android 18 could have anhiliated Vegeta when they first fought, and everyone else there, if she'd felt like it.

#17 states that #18 can't handle all of the Z Fighters by herself. That's why he tells them not to interfere with Vegeta and 18's fight or he'll join in also.

SSJ Trunks is stronger than SSJ Gohan, since he says he can hold his own against both future androids.

He says he can only for a time. And, as I said previously, we don't know if they were at full power during those encounters or not.

Trunks goes down in one hit from a full-power #17. Either the future Anroids are weaker or they're holding back.

Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong! First of all, Trunks deals with Freeza without even trying. SSJ Goku on Namek had to work for it and this Freeza is even stronger. Therefor, Trunks is decently more powerful than Freeza. Secondly, Goku was obviously at least as much stronger than Trunks as Trunks was over Freeza since he dealt with his sword attacks so easily.

Freeza isn't even at 100%. He looks like 50%-ish Freeza, who Namek SSJ Goku had no problem smacking around. Keep in mind also, that Goku was not trying to kill Freeza. Goku tries twice to just fly away and let Freeza live.

Trunks, being more like Vegeta, immediately goes for the kill. Had SSJ Goku gone for the kill against 50% Freeza, it would've looked the same.

As for Future Gohan, again, you have no real way to guage how much power he has. If you wish to cite the manga as you have done before, that makes Gohan far STRONGER than Trunks. Why? Gohan, in base, was able to spar with SSJ Trunks without needing to transform.

Gohan was able to spar with a younger Trunks. The manga jumps ahead three years after showing Gohan's death. Then Trunks is badly injured and gets a Zenkai. By the time Trunks goes back, he's stronger than Gohan was.

In the fanciful world of Toei with gumdrop clouds and staring matches. Not in the real DBZ.

You don't know how the fight played out. Unless, of course, you have access to some pages that no one else showed that show us exactly how the fight went and prove that 18 never stepped in to help 17 at all between that pannel where he charges in and when he's killed.

Evidence that #17 killed Gohan alone:
-Gohan's reaction. He's confident he can win. #17 says he wasn't even at half power last time. Gohan gets the same look Vegeta had when Oozaru Gohan was falling on him.
-18 makes no move to interfere.

Evidence that #18 had to step in:
-Toei.

[Duo]

Actually, I did read both of your posts and the scenes in question in the manga. You claim that the scene in the TV special didn't play out like the one in the comic. But it did for the most part. The only real difference in that particular scene was Future Trunks didn't go SSJ. The rest was just filler, but it doesn't contradict anything in the original comic.

Well, the Anime version also ignores the little event in which #17 declares he didn't even use half of his power last time, followed by his lunge and Gohan's terror. (This also gives the implication that Gohan has only fought them once before, and it was only #17 the first time, and that he lost his arm in that fight, meaning the Manga version would be VERY different had that been included.)

Also, they changed the way Gohan knocks Trunks out.

Toei took more liberties than usual with the Trunks' special. Many welcome this, and I do appreciate a lot of the elements introduced to the story, but that doesn't change...things.

Well you know, the Trunks special is one of the rare occasions when Toei's version was better than Toriyama.

I disagree. To me, length did not provide a better story.

Also to those people who say that all filler is completely non canon, this little tidbit is proof that filler CAN BE PART OF THE STORY when it doesn't contradict the comic:

Just because he included one panel does not mean Toriyama-sensei intended to "Canonize" the entire special's set of events.

[quote="Xyex]I really doubt that Trunks could have taken a finger flick from the Androids and survived if in base. We do not know for a fact that his Androids were weaker than the ones from the series time-line. We know that they felt weaker to him. But we do not know if they were holding back against him as they had against Gohan.[/quote]

What about when base Trunks knocks Cell out of the city with ease in the very same episode? Cell was probably stronger than the Artificial Humans by that point as well.

He says he can only for a time. And, as I said previously, we don't know if they were at full power during those encounters or not.

There's no reason to think otherwise, because if Trunks got both Artificial Humans to fight him, whereas Gohan was felled by one alone, then he posed a much bigger threat to them than Gohan.

Not really. He just recognizes the feeling of it being the same as Goku's. That's not proof of the size. However, what is proof of the size is how easily Future Trunks dispatches of an even stronger Freeza than the one Goku struggled against on Namek

I agree with this line of thinking, because Trunks had been Super Saiyan much longer in his life than Goku had, among other reasons. I feel Trunks was substantially stronger than Goku was on Namek.

Why? Gohan, in base, was able to spar with SSJ Trunks without needing to transform.

All we see is Gohan being pushed back a lot while blocking some hits, no confirmation of actual "sparring".

Besides, Trunks trained for 3 more years after that, meaning he may have been just that weak as a Super Saiyan at that time, but could easily make himself leagues greater than Super Saiyan Gohan in 3 years. Besides, Gohan notes "You've improved a lot, Trunks. You might even leave me in the dust in a few months."

Somehow, I doubt Gohan would've been lying, even if just to encourage Trunks.

You don't know how the fight played out. Unless, of course, you have access to some pages that no one else showed that show us exactly how the fight went and prove that 18 never stepped in to help 17 at all between that pannel where he charges in and when he's killed.

But implications are meant to be read, and the last we see is #17 going in to single-handedly kill Gohan. If Toriyama-sensei wanted to give a different impression, he would've spelled it out better. I like to call this "reading between the panels".

Anyway. As for my own thoughts. I say that the Androids of the present and the future are of equal power. The ones in the present just haven't taken to holding back yet. Trunks simply doesn't know they were holding back in his time.

But why would Toriyama-sensei have Trunks make that statement about their power, if not to show that the Artificial Humans of the Central Timeline were somehow stronger? I like to think he doesn't throw that stuff in just to throw people off (in fact, he doesn't...)

Super Goku 11,500,000
Freeza (70%) 8,400,000
Freeza (100%) 12,000,000
Freeza (Battle Worn) 10,000,000

A nod to myfavoritegames.com for some info on that. I'll just point out power levels aren't too official at this point, but it makes the series a bit easier to understand.

Haha, I actually typed up those levels for the site a couple years back. How ironic! Granted, my opinions on such have changed drastically since then, but I do feel that 100% Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku were incredibly close in power. In fact, if you read those chapters and don't get that impression, you may want to see a doctor about your mental health. I can understand how the Anime throws this off, but it's pretty clear in the Manga.

[Victator Supreme]

I disagree. To me, length did not provide a better story.

Its not a matter of length. Its just much better on dramatic terms. The manga version did a good job of illustrating the hopelessness of Trunks future. But as a story by itself it comes up short next to the Trunks movie.

[Xyex]

What about when base Trunks knocks Cell out of the city with ease in the very same episode? Cell was probably stronger than the Artificial Humans by that point as well.

Cell hadn't been expecting to be noticed, or for Trunks to be even half the power he was, even in base. Lowered defenses can't stop an attack.

There's no reason to think otherwise, because if Trunks got both Artificial Humans to fight him, whereas Gohan was felled by one alone, then he posed a much bigger threat to them than Gohan.

Possibly. Or maybe they both felt like fighting that time. With no direct proof one way or the other it's a non point.

All we see is Gohan being pushed back a lot while blocking some hits, no confirmation of actual "sparring".

Besides, Trunks trained for 3 more years after that, meaning he may have been just that weak as a Super Saiyan at that time, but could easily make himself leagues greater than Super Saiyan Gohan in 3 years. Besides, Gohan notes "You've improved a lot, Trunks. You might even leave me in the dust in a few months."

Somehow, I doubt Gohan would've been lying, even if just to encourage Trunks.

Nnnn, debatable. Gohan, base, not being floored by Trunks in SSJ just tells me that Trunks was a good ways behind Gohan in terms of power. I see him being close to Gohan's power by the time he goes back, but that's it.

But implications are meant to be read, and the last we see is #17 going in to single-handedly kill Gohan. If Toriyama-sensei wanted to give a different impression, he would've spelled it out better. I like to call this "reading between the panels".

Yes. And no. This is just another non point, really. You've got the "but if he wanted it that way he'd have shown it" POV, and then the "you haven't a clue what exactly happened so drawing any conclusions to debate with is impossible" POV. Both of which are right.

But why would Toriyama-sensei have Trunks make that statement about their power, if not to show that the Artificial Humans of the Central Timeline were somehow stronger? I like to think he doesn't throw that stuff in just to throw people off (in fact, he doesn't...)

Correct me if I'm wrong here (but I dobut it) but wasn't the Trunks side-story written AFTER that line? Therefore it is 100% and entirely possible that Toriyama-sama didn't decide to make them the same strength and simply holding back in the future until he got to that point.

Freeza isn't even at 100%. He looks like 50%-ish Freeza, who Namek SSJ Goku had no problem smacking around. Keep in mind also, that Goku was not trying to kill Freeza. Goku tries twice to just fly away and let Freeza live.

Trunks, being more like Vegeta, immediately goes for the kill. Had SSJ Goku gone for the kill against 50% Freeza, it would've looked the same.

You know... I find it amusing that people even TRY to go by appearances to determine power in Dragonball. That would inately make SSJU2 Goku (when he powered up in the RoSaT) stronger than SSJ3 Goku cause he's got more muscles. Freeza's strength has been boosted by the cybernetic components. And if you look at his design, it is apparently pattently impossible for him to bulk up.

You can not claim any specific ammount of power for Freeza by the end of that fight but I find it EXTREMELY hard to swallow that Freeza would have, when confronted with a Super Saiya-jin, not increased to his maximum. At least by the point he threw the Death Ball.

Gohan was able to spar with a younger Trunks. The manga jumps ahead three years after showing Gohan's death. Then Trunks is badly injured and gets a Zenkai. By the time Trunks goes back, he's stronger than Gohan was.

We don't even know if the Zenkai's are enough to be of any real affect by this point (or hell, if they even still happen). I don't think they were functioning anymore, or just not of consequence, otherwise Vegeta wouldn't have sulked after 18 defeated him, he'd have rechallenged her knowing his power had increased.

[desirecampbell]

You know... I find it amusing that people even TRY to go by appearances to determine power in Dragonball. That would inately make SSJU2 Goku (when he powered up in the RoSaT) stronger than SSJ3 Goku cause he's got more muscles. Freeza's strength has been boosted by the cybernetic components. And if you look at his design, it is apparently pattently impossible for him to bulk up.

I think the point is that Freeza wasn't "super bulked up 100%" or whatever the hell that 'final final' form was called. Also, there's no reason to think that the cybernetic enhancements increased his power any.

Though I do agree that Freeza would, undoubtedly, use the absolute maximum power he could once he saw Trunks go SSj. Once Freeza got chopped to pieces and left for dead floating in space, he stopped playing the 'power up slowly and toy with your enemies' game.

[Victator Supreme]

For a guy who had not increased his power any, he seemed convinced he could kill Goku with little trouble.

[desirecampbell]

For a guy who had not increased his power any, he seemed convinced he could kill Goku with little trouble.

He did have his Dad with him.

[Rocketman]

For a guy who had not increased his power any, he seemed convinced he could kill Goku with little trouble.

Freeza can't sense power levels. He was convinced he could kill Goku with that final blast on Namek.

Though I do agree that Freeza would, undoubtedly, use the absolute maximum power he could once he saw Trunks go SSj. Once Freeza got chopped to pieces and left for dead floating in space, he stopped playing the 'power up slowly and toy with your enemies' game.

He didn't have time. It takes a while for Freeza to charge up to 100%. Goku let him do it. Trunks didn't.

Yes. And no. This is just another non point, really. You've got the "but if he wanted it that way he'd have shown it" POV, and then the "you haven't a clue what exactly happened so drawing any conclusions to debate with is impossible" POV. Both of which are right.

Definately disagree. Gohan is absolutely terrified, frozen in place when #17 attacks. If he was strong enough that both Androids were needed to take him down, why was he so terrified at one?

You can not claim any specific ammount of power for Freeza by the end of that fight but I find it EXTREMELY hard to swallow that Freeza would have, when confronted with a Super Saiya-jin, not increased to his maximum. At least by the point he threw the Death Ball.

Death Ball? What Death Ball? Freeza threw no Death Ball.



Then Trunks fires the Burning Attack and slices Freeza up. Like I said before, Freeza never had time to go 100%.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Haha, I actually typed up those levels for the site a couple years back. How ironic! Granted, my opinions on such have changed drastically since then, but I do feel that 100% Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku were incredibly close in power. In fact, if you read those chapters and don't get that impression, you may want to see a doctor about your mental health. I can understand how the Anime throws this off, but it's pretty clear in the Manga.

*Note: I know this a bit off topic. I'm sorry but I don't take people questioning my mental status very lightly.

I actually read the manga and now I'm gonna have to get them to varify my points (this involves not only getting up but also going downstairs so listen)
The fight between Super Goku and Freeza begins in Ch.124(or 328 for japanese readers) and up to Ch.126/320, because at the beginning of 126/320, Freeza launches the attack on Namek. They talk a bit, going on about the time namek has left. Freeza jumps over to another topic saying something along the lines of: "Going Full Power, to see if Goku can still take him out.."

Goku makes note that Freeza probably can't go full power for long because his body cannot stand it anymore. He says he won't let Freeza stall anymore and Freeza counters with a blast and claims that was not even 3/4 of his full power. One more time, claims that was not even 3/4 of his full power.

So as you know Freeza powers up, Kaio tells Goku to finish him off, and Goku says he wants to check out the universe's strongest. Freeza goes 100% towards the end of ch.127/321 and attacks Goku. I think what throws a lot of people of is that after Freeza pummels Goku, Goku says he hopes that wasn't all.

In the next chapter, there is a small fight scene inwhich Goku dodges a punch and IDK does a "back-headbutt" on Freeza and spins him around, throwing him into the air. Freeza stablizies himself and Goku charges a kamehameha. Freeza charges head on and Goku screams "DIE FREEZA".

His intent was to kill Freeza with that kamehameha but as we know in the next chapter, Freeza shocks Goku by winning that power duel. Goku is knocked down, for a while I'm going to add, and when he gets up Freeza want to know if he's a zombie. After the last wish was made with the namekian dragon, the fight continues and it is PUNCH FOR PUNCH until Freeza begins to become worn out and Goku stops the fight.

So only when Freeza becomes tired from full power, Goku is in control again. For the most part, it was even if not in Freeza's favor.

*Phew*
...
*Dies*

[Duo]

And if you read my post more carefully, you would know that I was agreeing with the points you just made, and confirming that people who believe otherwise are incorrect.

Please read a bit slower next time. I wasn't insulting or insenuating something negative in the least (at you).