Dragonball's intended length

Tanooki Kuribo · Post by **Tanooki Kuribo** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:22 pm

I remember at the end of Vol. 1, it said something like "And thus ends...Hey wait a minute were gonna keep going". Or something to that affect, which I thought maybe was a sign it was suppost to end there.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:06 pm

Xyex wrote:see, that's the thing. Vegeta would be dead. So would Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo. Possibly Krillin as well. Not to mention Goku. That wish you speak of, the one Shenlong granted, ya, it wouldn't have happened. It's sole purpose was to restore the cast so the series could continue.

Er... But wasn't that also the whole point of the trip to Namecc in the first place?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:22 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:see, that's the thing. Vegeta would be dead. So would Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo. Possibly Krillin as well. Not to mention Goku. That wish you speak of, the one Shenlong granted, ya, it wouldn't have happened. It's sole purpose was to restore the cast so the series could continue.
Er... But wasn't that also the whole point of the trip to Namecc in the first place?

It was, and they would fail at bringing their friends back. Gohan would return to Earth with almost everyone he had as an ally dead. It would be completely up to Gohan to protect the Earth.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:36 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:see, that's the thing. Vegeta would be dead. So would Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, Yamcha, and Piccolo. Possibly Krillin as well. Not to mention Goku. That wish you speak of, the one Shenlong granted, ya, it wouldn't have happened. It's sole purpose was to restore the cast so the series could continue.
Er... But wasn't that also the whole point of the trip to Namecc in the first place?
It was, and they would fail at bringing their friends back. Gohan would return to Earth with almost everyone he had as an ally dead. It would be completely up to Gohan to protect the Earth.

Toriyama would be the bastard of legend if he ended the show like that. Picture ending the show with Gohan the main hero ( I mean he still had bowl-cut)..!

Taku128 · Post by **Taku128** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:52 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:
desirecampbell wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote: Er... But wasn't that also the whole point of the trip to Namecc in the first place?
It was, and they would fail at bringing their friends back. Gohan would return to Earth with almost everyone he had as an ally dead. It would be completely up to Gohan to protect the Earth.
Toriyama would be the bastard of legend if he ended the show like that. Picture ending the show with Gohan the main hero ( I mean he still had bowl-cut)..!

Yeah, how dare Toriyama try to end the series the way he wants it to end! >:(

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:57 pm

Taku128 wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:
desirecampbell wrote: It was, and they would fail at bringing their friends back. Gohan would return to Earth with almost everyone he had as an ally dead. It would be completely up to Gohan to protect the Earth.
Toriyama would be the bastard of legend if he ended the show like that. Picture ending the show with Gohan the main hero ( I mean he still had bowl-cut)..!
Yeah, how dare Toriyama try to end the series the way he wants it to end! >:(

I see what you mean, but from what I understand he does a lot for the fans (as he should), they are basically paying his bills and by extending the series he can get more and so do the fans.

Taku128 · Post by **Taku128** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:12 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:
Taku128 wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:Toriyama would be the bastard of legend if he ended the show like that. Picture ending the show with Gohan the main hero ( I mean he still had bowl-cut)..!
Yeah, how dare Toriyama try to end the series the way he wants it to end! >:(
I see what you mean, but from what I understand he does a lot for the fans (as he should), they are basically paying his bills and by extending the series he can get more and so do the fans.

Yes but he became bored with the series during the Android/Cell saga (Or atleast I think it was the Cell saga, could have been the Buu saga, and it could have even been mid to late Freeza saga), and he wanted to end it.

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:25 pm

Pedro The Hutt wrote:I was always under the impression that the best Dragonball ending would've been after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. Goku finally winning it after so many trials and attempts would've been, if you ask me the perfect way to conclude the series, especially since in my opinion the Budokai arcs were the high points in the series.

The thought of that...

I probably wouldn't have gotten into the series if not for "DBZ", and the saiyan thing starting with raditz is a great twist. but that's me..

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:17 am

desirecampbell wrote:they would fail at bringing their friends back. Gohan would return to Earth with almost everyone he had as an ally dead.

"Dragon Ball" simply never was that dark a series, in my opinion...

Taku128 · Post by **Taku128** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:26 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
desirecampbell wrote:they would fail at bringing their friends back. Gohan would return to Earth with almost everyone he had as an ally dead.
"Dragon Ball" simply never was that dark a series, in my opinion...

I'm sure Toei would have made a GT series that has a third set of Dragon Balls, and Gohan and Bulma would go off to find them to wish their friends back to life.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:21 am

Er... But wasn't that also the whole point of the trip to Namecc in the first place?

Yes, but the series was leading up to that not working.

Mr.Piccolo wrote:I see what you mean, but from what I understand he does a lot for the fans (as he should), they are basically paying his bills and by extending the series he can get more and so do the fans.

And yet you don't like the Buu saga which was the most fan influenced arc in the entire series. And Toriyama-sama did try to end the series (twice) with Gohan as the hero. First with SSJ2 Gohan and then with Mystic Gohan. Toriyama-sama was finished with Dragonball with Freeza. It was fans and editors that made him continue at all passed that point.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:18 am

Xyex wrote:
Er... But wasn't that also the whole point of the trip to Namecc in the first place?
Yes, but the series was leading up to that not working.

I don't buy it, sorry.

Toriyama-sama was finished with Dragonball with Freeza. It was fans and editors that made him continue at all passed that point.

Source?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:43 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:Yes, but the series was leading up to that not working.
I don't buy it, sorry.

The Namekian Dragonballs had deactivated, and Piccolo was killed by Freeza.

No, wait! Piccolo held on for a little bit! Honestly!

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:49 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:
Er... But wasn't that also the whole point of the trip to Namecc in the first place?
Yes, but the series was leading up to that not working.
I don't buy it, sorry.

Guru was dead of natural causes (later plot twisted to heartbreak over the death of his people in order to facilitate the restoration of the cast). Only Goku, Krillin, Gohan, and Piccolo were left to face Freeza. And then Piccolo takes an energy blast meant for Goku... and should have died right there. I believe he was meant to. But Toriyama-sama needed Piccolo in order to dig himself out of the ending he was trying to make.

Olivier Hague wrote:
Toriyama-sama was finished with Dragonball with Freeza. It was fans and editors that made him continue at all passed that point.
Source?

I don't have the article or know where exactly it is. But I'm almost positive I've read it on these boards before, where he states to outright that he'd intended to end with Freeza. That aside, this is fairly common knowledge.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:19 am

Xyex wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:I see what you mean, but from what I understand he does a lot for the fans (as he should), they are basically paying his bills and by extending the series he can get more and so do the fans.
And yet you don't like the Buu saga which was the most fan influenced arc in the entire series. And Toriyama-sama did try to end the series (twice) with Gohan as the hero. First with SSJ2 Gohan and then with Mystic Gohan. Toriyama-sama was finished with Dragonball with Freeza. It was fans and editors that made him continue at all passed that point.

I understand that, but if you read my previous posts you would see that I was saying that the Buu Arc was a weak saga in comparison to the Cell Arc. The elements in the Cell Arc make it really interesting and it shows that Toriyama put some effort into it (not that he doesn't put effort into other arcs, but the Cell Arc is deeper than any other).It seems that Toriyama took the easy way out and went back to the "Magic" route. "Hey there is a being that is incredibly strong from many years ago. He's basically invincible and he's been on earth the whole time. He can even absorb you and take your powers."

With the Cell Arc, Toriyama used old enemies and Goku's "weakness" for the foundation. Elements that the heroes used in the Freeza arc like surpressing ki from danger was used by the villians (Cell and technically Gero even though his ki couldn't be felt). The way the characters interacted in the Buu Arc seemed careless and ironic (Ex. Vegeta believing he could beat Buu alone, Gohan allowing Gotenks to fight Super Buu again, Goku putting the faith of the world on Trunks and Goten instead of finishing Buu off, Chi-Chi slapping Buu heh heh, etc.).

Don't get me wrong, there were stupid mistakes in everybody's part in the Cell Arc (Goku "allowing" Gero to survive, Gohan prolonging Cell's beating, Piccolo not finishing off Cell quickly and revealing the regeneration technique to Cell, Vegeta allowing Cell to become perfect, Krillin destroying the remote, Trunks letting Vegeta fight Cell one-on-one in the beginning and not understanding the levels of surpassing the super saiyan, No.16 not knowing of his bom being removed, Yamcha for being at the Cell game and allowing another Cell jr. <--not serious, etc.)

The reckless events in the Cell Arc are serious and have heavy repercussions (re-drummings) but the events that happen in the Buu Arc lean more towards the negligent side. Its almost like the show de-evolved... uh, what was the question?

*For the record, I don't hate the Buu Arc, I just feel the Cell Arc is just all around better. With a much more diverse class of heroes (Saiyans, Humans, Namekians, and Jinzoningen (sp) all fighting instead of a Saiyan and whatever the hell Buu is roster being the only real fighters in actual combat) , better character analysis, and no pink Gumby.

What are your thoughts?

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:01 pm

Here's a pretty old, yet interesting rant you all might be interested in...
http://dbzuncensored.dbzoa.net/editoria ... ial07.html

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:08 pm

Rocketman wrote:The Namekian Dragonballs had deactivated, and Piccolo was killed by Freeza.

I'm just saying I can't imagine the series ending like that.
Gokû dying, maybe. But most of the cast? No way. It's just not that dark a series, in my opinion.

Xyex wrote:I don't have the article or know where exactly it is. But I'm almost positive I've read it on these boards before, where he states to outright that he'd intended to end with Freeza. That aside, this is fairly common knowledge.

'Seems like a common assumption to me...

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:45 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:I'm just saying I can't imagine the series ending like that.
Gokû dying, maybe. But most of the cast? No way. It's just not that dark a series, in my opinion.

That's true. It isn't that dark. If the whole cast had died, then it would be - but they didn't, so it's not.

Heh, but I know that's not what you meant.

We can see Dragonball get darker and more serious as it went on. The series started out very innocently, a few bruises, a blown up car, the implication that some old guy died in a freak accident... by the time Daimao shows up we've seen ruthless mercenaries try to kill a child repeatedly. Though unsuccessful and mostly humourous, still drives the series into a darker realm. After that, we see an actual demon king take over the world, nearly kills Goku, and kills off Goku's closest friends. Everything is put right afterward, and the deceased return to life, but the implication that a person can die is taken even more seriously at that point. Further on, we have the introduction of alien ancestry, evil universe conquering overlords, the genocide of Goku's race, the implied genocide of countless other species by Freeza, and the gruesome deaths of dozens (if not hundreds) of Namekkians brought into the crossfire. We see children, new friends, old friends, and old enemies (who are now kind of friends) taken down by Freeza, and the very planet itself is doomed to destruction. We see a stoic and powerful Goku take on this threat with the assumption he would die in the process.

Beyond that, we see the artwork become more serious as the story progresses. We see fewer and fewer jokes. We see a definite and deliberate shift from humour to action.

In my opinion, Dragonball was more than serious enough, and dark enough, to finish the series with the deaths of almost everyone on Namek.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:15 pm

In my opinion, Dragonball was more than serious enough, and dark enough, to finish the series with the deaths of almost everyone on Namek.

Call me weird but when I read this part Cha-la was going through my head. I so want to teach a dinosaur to balance on a ball once almost every warrior on earth died.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:14 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Rocketman wrote:The Namekian Dragonballs had deactivated, and Piccolo was killed by Freeza.
I'm just saying I can't imagine the series ending like that.
Gokû dying, maybe. But most of the cast? No way. It's just not that dark a series, in my opinion.

Someone's obviously never seen the History of Trunks or the Android/Cell arcs.

Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:I don't have the article or know where exactly it is. But I'm almost positive I've read it on these boards before, where he states to outright that he'd intended to end with Freeza. That aside, this is fairly common knowledge.
'Seems like a common assumption to me...

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean it isn't fact. As I said. It has been stated by Toriyama himself.