The Super Re-Read

[Cipher]

I think that the way they phrase it, their intention isn't simply to come back to where Goku and Vegeta are and kill them there (though they will do that to start with), but also to go back to an earlier point in every timeline and wipe out the mortals. This would create a proliferation of new branches in the various timelines, wouldn't it? That's what I inferred from the statement that they could execute the Zero Mortal Project "even in the past", anyway.

Depends on when they’re jumping to. Since it’s already a different past than their own, as long as they never go back either 1) earlier than Trunks and the gangs’ last time travel, or 2) earlier than one of their own previous trips, they could theoretically avoid any timeline-splintering paradoxes. Going to earlier points in the other timelines would likely avoid new splits provided they never go back to a point before other time travel in them. (But, yeah, there is potential for it. For various reasons, arriving in Cell’s timeline at any point prior to his killing of Trunks and stealing the time machine would create a new split, for example, since they’d be altering set history.)

This is probably more scrutiny than the line was meant to be given though.

[TheSaiyanGod]

what I think is going on with Goku completing SSjB; alternative and contrary interpretations can definitely be (up)held, but as a summary, I think:
Descriptions and depictions of SSjB indicate that a significant amount of its power is overflowing into the aura. As it's not within the body, it isn't used. Yet, SSjB's full power is there, even if it can't be used and directed at will. How long this full power lasts depends on the next point.
As the user fights and their stamina drops due to expenditure of effort, the power overflowing into the aura leaches away and isn't there any more (the form is no longer at full power). Likewise, the power within overflows ever more out into the aura, and in turn leaches away, until too much power is expended to use the form properly (or at all).
Completed SSjB seals the power in the aura within the body, which is therefore more power than an SSjB typically has at their disposal for use. This therefore is a buff in practical terms, and it is capable of continuous use without diminishing even when in a fierce fight that requires high expenditure of effort, as it isn't leaching away.[/list]
So, Completed SSjB has advantages over 'ordinary' SSjB both in the amount of power it can command, andthe duration for which it can do so.

A little late in that part, but since you point out that Vegeta completed the SSB in your most recent re-read, I would like to say that I really like the concept of this form. SSB is my favorite transformation in the series (I kind of feel bad because most of the fandom hates it), so I found it interesting how Toyo explored this transformation, continuing the ever-growing power of the two Saiyans without the need for new powers ups (like Kaioken)

Particularly I have a few nitpicks, like I still find it a little out of place for DB the way the SSB aura has played such an important role in mastering the form considering that auras in general never seemed to strongly influence the amount of energy spent
for a transformation. And I honestly don't remember whether before chapter 24, the aura had been cited as a major part of the problem.

Anyway, I like how Toyo established the SSB's weaknesses since the U6 arc, and brought two different resolutions to this problem from the perspectives of Goku and Vegeta. This is the last time, for now, that Vegeta used the same methods as Goku to strengthen himself. In both of the following arcs, he chose a different path to become stronger and I wonder what Toyo and Toriyama have in mind for him now. Goku reached the Ultimate technique, which was hinted for most of the series. What's left for Vegeta? Will he change his mindset and try to get the UI, or will the authors continue to make him go his own way?

[TobyS]

No, the English version says 'candidate' too - I'm eliding this datum somewhat with Iwne's later statement that Goku's fight with Toppo is already on the level of "us Gods", so I figure people like Goku, Vegeta, and Toppo are somewhere in a fairly broad spectrum of power.

Yeah I think the level of "us gods" is pretty broad. I do take 'candidates' to mean a tier below actual god level.
Thinking back to the Zamasu arc. When Zamasu is shocked there's mortals stronger then Shin (and Kibito) Shin temporarily placates him by saying "hey at least no one is stronger than the GoD". Zammy later moves the goalposts when watching godtube footage of the U6 tourney and says something like "to be even that close to a GoD".
I would take realm of the gods to be anywhere between Kaioshin and GoD level
But they say it specifically when they start using God ki, so I think it was more about that, don't they even say it when goku is just red and clearly no way near Beerus in power? It's an odd statement, given how completed Bluegeta got wrecked by Beerus too.

Gowas mentions that if Goku could stand against fused Zamas for an hour, they'd still have hope; then the fusion happens, and when they split again, Trunks asks how much time is left, and Shin says around 20 minutes - so Vegetto was around for near enough 40 minutes - and in SSjB for the whole time without any obvious power-loss issues, I might add.

Ah ok prolly like 17 mins.... give or take if Zamas ended early as well.

Ah, no, it is indeed in my copy; that's not what I mean - I'm just referring to the fact that interstitials often happen to have some correspondence to what's actually happened in the main story (see: Goku molesting the Galactic King in the chapter 13 interstitial, which is again referred to in Chapter 43, or Botamo consoling Magetta in the Chapter 11 interstitial, which reproduces a scene in the chapter itself). Cipher, for instance, often likes to say that the interstitials are 'canon'. However, I can't see any evidence of 'Monaka Black' in any of the crowd shots to correspond to the interstitial in question - obviously because it's just a gag, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Ok were getting there but I still don't get it, what crowd would Monaka black be in? What makes his inter' less likely to be canon?

Not to stray too far from the topic, but I thought the Marvel Universe got its number from the address of the Marvel Offices? Or is that the 'in-universe' explanation for the designation?

"The Multiverse numbering system as well as the designation Earth-616 were conceived by Dave Thorpe, then-writer of Captain Britain for Marvel UK. He originally intended for Earth-616 to be the designation for "the worst of the parallel Earths that was holding the others back from achieving the shift forward to the next evolutionary stage." Its designation comes the Number of the Beast (666); however, Thorpe thought the connection would have been too obvious, so he decided to subtract 50 ("a nice round number") from it. When Alan Moore succeeded Thorpe, he assigned this crooked reality the designation Earth-238 instead, and the number 616 was used for the universe of origin of Captain Britain, therefore the mainstream Marvel reality. The term "Earth 616" was used for the first time in Daredevils #7."

I think that the way they phrase it, their intention isn't simply to come back to where Goku and Vegeta are and kill them there (though they will do that to start with), but also to go back to an earlier point in every timeline and wipe out the mortals. This would create a proliferation of new branches in the various timelines, wouldn't it? That's what I inferred from the statement that they could execute the Zero Mortal Project "even in the past", anyway.

Yeah I mean I get it's neat if in their mania they created a sisyphean task, but I don't think that's it. I think they know how it works, have no reason to go back further in the past, and want to rid all the currently existing worlds which is plenty, but by all means believe what you like I s'pose.

[The Undying]

The Universe Survival arc is my favorite arc in the Super manga, and generally does such a good job with its intended story elements that I'd probably only put it a single notch below Toriyama's work; modern or otherwise. It doesn't hesitate to take pretty bold risks with its narrative, and most of them pay off well, provided you're aware which characters are meant to be the object of focus and which background "characters" aren't - something the arc does make abundantly clear through its recruitment phase. A premise of 80 fighters in a tournament was never going to be anything short of needless bloat, but Toyotaro pulls it off in a way that lends to (and genuinely feels like) the kinds of hurdles one would face in a battle royale. From start to finish, he trims the fat and focuses on more substantial threads.

Before I clarify that stance fully, I'd like the re-read to progress through the Tournament of Power first. Don't want to get ahead of myself. I have a couple of replies to make concerning previous arcs in the meantime.

Universe 6 Tournament:

As others have said, this version of the arc successfully accomplishes everything it sets out to do. Every battle is a rollercoaster ride of curveballs and punchlines; all of them near perfectly timed. If anyone wanted a modern Dragon Ball story with the atmosphere and gags of early Dragon Ball, this is the one, and it shows that Toyotaro has the chops to pull off DB's tone in a way that no other artist/writer not named Toriyama seems capable of doing. There's plenty of worldbuilding to boot if you're into it.

Unfortunately, I think there's a good reason a lot of readers may not be as invested in this one on revisits. It's almost entirely predicated on the element of surprise, which I'd say is both its biggest strength and greatest detriment. The original manga does this as well, but is also generally more compelling with its plot/character beats (even in early DB) that you'd more than likely still feel engrossed with those stories after coming back to them. The "twists" in this arc overshadow just about everything else, so it only really feels effective during initial readthroughs. That's not necessarily a bad thing - as a thesis, it logically follows Beerus teasing new wonders at the end of BoG - but it can certainly make the story less stimulating or enticing the second time around.

Future Trunks:

There's a number of things I really like about the manga's version here. It's completely faithful to Toriyama's gods being seriously ungodlike (and totally incompetent) by nature, and in doing so, makes Zamasu more of a pretentious loser than a mustache-twirling supervillain. The story actually tracks the growth of Goku and Vegeta as fighters, acknowledging they've reached their natural limit and having them progress their power in more creative ways than brute strength training. While Trunks' role in the anime tends to flip-flop between "miraculous hero" and "downtrodden failure" (ultimately, it goes for the latter because it has an outline to follow) the manga feels uncompromisingly consistent in how it hands him nothing more than a long string of constant unchangeable failures, making him come to terms with those tragedies by clinging to hope until the end.

Taken individually, it's all competent stuff. However, there's a problem.

All of these ideas are pretty heavily disjointed. While the manga does them well enough, it does very little to connect them into a central narrative. Zamasu has his own working theme, but outside of a few lines of dialogue, isn't much of a thematic obstacle for Trunks -- he's just an evil, shallow Kaioshin apprentice. There's more chemistry between Vegeta and Black than anyone else. "Hope" comes across as the main theme, but doesn't feel very relevant to most of the cast. It's perhaps the one aspect I think is actually outdone by the current arc in the manga, although, ironically, this one reads as so much more focused and condensed thanks to its structure and pacing being miles ahead.

Bottom line:

While the DBS manga in general isn't Toriyama tier and leaves a few things to be desired, it's still the closest the whole franchise ever came to making that goal feel material without his explicit, in-depth involvement. That's its average state for me.
____________

I would take realm of the gods to be anywhere between Kaioshin and GoD level

Minor correction, but I doubt it's that broad. Both mediums tend to use this term whenever Goku fights in his SSG form or higher, so it probably more accurately encompasses a range of strength starting from Super Saiyan God and ending at what's typical for a God of Destruction's battle power.

[Cipher]

The Universe Survival arc is my favorite arc in the Super manga, and generally does such a good job with its intended story elements that I'd probably only put it a single notch below Toriyama's work; modern or otherwise. It doesn't hesitate to take pretty bold risks with its narrative, and most of them pay off well, provided you're aware which characters are meant to be the object of focus and which background "characters" aren't - something the arc does make abundantly clear through its recruitment phase. A premise of 80 fighters in a tournament was never going to be anything short of needless bloat, but Toyotaro pulls it off in a way that lends to (and genuinely feels like) the kinds of hurdles one would face in a battle royale. From start to finish, he trims the fat and focuses on more substantial threads.

The Universal Survival arc is my second favorite arc in Super, for many of the reasons you state. I don’t find it as consistent in execution as the U6 arc, but it’s the most thematically coherent arc DB has ever had—without ever feeling preachy or un-DB; more like Toriyama’s short manga—and it contains what is probably my single favorite fight and chapter in Super. It does have one other fight that feels like it needs an extra chapter and perhaps shows the time constraints on the series’ plotting (which by and large is a factor that doesn’t rear its head in any obvious ways), but surely everyone can guess what I’m talking about and we’ll get to that when it comes. But even then, the sentiment behind that fight is good. It’s an extremely tidy, frequently fun little arc. (“Little,” though it’s Super‘s longest up to this point and clocks in above several from the original DB. Yet somehow the story feels compact, in a good way.)

Incidentally, my manga arc ranking winds up being essentially a complete reverse of my anime ranking for the same material. For the manga, I’d go U6, Universal Survival, Future Trunks, whereas for the anime I’d go Future Trunks, Universal Survival, U6. Though my responses to the two versions as a whole are pretty different. And uh ... I will certainly read the manga again but will probably never revisit the anime as a whole, and I’ll leave it at that.

One note:

A premise of 80 fighters in a tournament was never going to be anything short of needless bloat

I don’t think this is necessarily true, so long as the intent is using a battle royale setting or structure of the ten-fighter teams as setup for the story it wants to tell, rather than spotlighting each of 80 contestants. I don’t know that the manga’s approach is perfect, but it is certainly on the right path in leaning closer to that use of the setting.

One other note:

This is also an arc where I attribute the execution largely to Toyotarо̄, also in a good way. The substantial differences between its anime and manga versions, as well as behind-the-scenes interviews detailing Toriyama's late addition of details would seem to indicate that Toriyama was comparatively out of the room for this arc as compared to say, U6, where his hand feels pretty strong. This isn't meant to compare the anime and manga, as Toyotarо̄ had the benefit of being behind at this point, leaving more time to react to and process the final details of the outline (as opposed to, say, Toei getting details on Jiren's personality after they'd already drafted a general profile for him; yikes!), but I think that without any version comparison whatsoever, the arc is a good acquittal for Toyotarо̄'s ability to cut through to the point of Toriyama's stories and ideas and arrange them in a coherent and satisfying fashion. Even though I like the first arc where he seems to be more prominently in creative control less (spoilers), the execution of this one, which I think is very nearly as much his on the script/story-structure-level earn him a lot of warmth from me (on top of what he already has from Victory Mission and previous Super arcs). Again, Toyotarо̄ being the filter in execution for Toriyama's general ideas, if he isn't going to execute them himself, winds up being a combination I really like.

[batistabus]

Since I missed the Future Trunks arc entirely, I'll just go ahead and skip it for now so I can keep up. When I have time moving forward, I'll talk about the Future Trunks arc chapters, possibly through the collapsed spoiler feature.

Warning: I'm going to overanalyze these chapters. I thought it'd be fun to spend more time thinking about minute details. Also, I haven't read any of the other responses for this chapter, so sorry if I repeat anyone.

Chapter 27
At the start of a new arc, I think this chapter (and the beginning of this arc in general) does a whole lot to ground things. After all of the crazy time travel, mystery, and god shenanigan's of the past arc, the levity here feels like a welcome change of pace. I also noticed a lot of work put into showing the limits of characters.

We know these events will lead to a 80 fighter battle royale from 8 universes. For the Dragon Team, the scale of their power has gone above imagination. How can a premise like that really live up to the hype? I wonder if the cozy feeling of these early chapters is intentional juxtaposition to make the events later on feel that much grander. Continuing to up the stakes is certainly one of the main challenges of Super, so if you're going to do it, laying solid ground work certainly helps.

I also want to point out how much this chapter reminds you who Goku is - a hick. A TRUE hick...not just someone who talks informally. It's not necessarily flattering. He's not an American family man. Hell, he's someone you might not even like if you met. Goku's appeal is not in being a role model. Some people seem to find this side of him irritating. I think it makes him unique and interesting.

The chapter starts with a drawing of "Universe 7, Earth". A small reminder that the plot point of multiple universes is still relevant.

Goku's wearing work clothes. He's driving a car. He's interacting with random civilians. He has an unexciting job. This is the Goku we don't see much of, but it's who he is most days of his life. Well, maybe he doesn't work as much as he should, but we're reminded he doesn't spend most days of his life fighting aliens and wearing yamabuki-iro. If Gohan wasn't evidence already, it doesn't take long for you to get rusty, especially when the peak of one's power is so high.

We're immersed in the countryside. It really feels like the boondocks. The mountains and farmland are sprawling. The officer's outfits (jackets, cowboy hat) and topographic map on the wall evoke the feel of a ranger/Forest Service office. A hover-car that would be common in West City sticks out like a sore thumb among rural fashion and beat-up pickup trucks. Goku's not merely spatially far from civilization; it feels like he's living back in time. Consequently, you shouldn't be completely shocked when he does something that you wouldn't do. This isn't new information, but it emphasizes this aspect of the different regions of Dragon Ball's Earth.

He fights the theives. He doesn't have to do this. He could grab the truck and fly/teleport away. Goku's a good guy, but he is not a "turn the other cheek" type of guy. If you deserve a beating, he'll give it to you, and he'll do it with a smirk. He'll get irritated if you don't learn your lesson, and he'll lecture you about getting a job. Intentionally hypocritical.

Goku is excited that, with the reward, Chichi will let him stop working for a while. I'll try not to get too far into the "Goku is/isn't a terrible father" discussion, but certainly, his relationship with Chichi is that of two isolated weirdos. Their "love" is not one you are meant to relate to. She doesn't need him around all the time, and he doesn't want to be. Chichi wants to be a wife based on her sheltered/conservative view of what that means. Goku married her because he didn't understand what he was getting into. That's just how it is. I feel like people who had such a problem with the "Goku and Chichi never kissed" joke/fact are missing something critical. Later in the chapter, we found out Goku was not present for the birth of Gohan (we knew Goten), and may not have even seen Chichi during the 9 months of her pregnancy (or wasn't around long enough to notice or ask about it). Whis is clueless and the look on Vegeta's face is priceless.

Moving on to Vegeta. While the fight against Beerus isn't necessary (it doesn't seem to have been in Toriyama's outline), but it gives us more time with these characters to show us where they're at moving into the story. Also, I suspect that there is a fight quota baked into the formula for the DBS manga. I don't know if it's imposed by Shueisha or self-imposed by Toyotaro. It's just something to accept from this format. If you expect kids to buy a whole magazine to read Dragon Ball once a month, the least you can do is give them a fight or two.

Whis shows pride in Vegeta, but also continues to show his side as Beerus' teacher. "Oh, Lord Beerus. I thought you were taking a break", he says cheekily. He is strongly motivated to train the Saiyans by food, but even if it's not stated overtly, he's possibly equally motivated by his desire to inspire Beerus. An Angel must nudge gently, especially when dealing with a cat.

I like that the Oracle Fish keeps coming back in Toyotaro's manga. He doesn't do or say much, but he's cute, and it keeps things light hearted - like the Yardratians in the current arc. In this chapter, he just pushes Beerus' buttons, which is always fun. What is the role of the Oracle Fish on a godly scale? Does every universe have an Oracle Fish to accompany the God of Destruction and the Angel? Does the Oracle Fish rank above the GoD? I'd very much like to see some fanart imagining alternate-universe Oracle Fishes...regardless, he's playing into Whis' method for training Beerus.

I'll choose Beerus bitch-slapping the shit out of Vegeta with his tail as my favorite panel of the chapter.

Vegeta uses completed SSB. He hasn't even shown it to Whis yet. Is this the first moment that he's pulled it off? Beerus continues to be excited by the growth of Saiyans. Well, for a minute anyway. As much as he's excited by the prospect of a challenge, he gets irritated when he needs to exert himself, and he gets furious when Vegeta lands a hit. A fickle cat or just an asshole? ((What's the difference?)) Whis misplaces his staff, showing us once again that, despite being as powerful and wise as he is, he can be a bit clumsy.

Whis hints at Migatte no Gokui again and Vegeta is still struggling to grasp the concept. Vegeta knows he has a long way to go before he can surpass Beerus and that he's sick of following in Goku's footsteps. In the past, perhaps it has meant that Vegeta sought reach the summit before Goku. At the end of this arc, we'll learn that Vegeta intends to climb a different mountain entirely. It's not as much as a shift as I think the text makes it out to be, but it certainly feels in line with other Vegeta moments: Super Saiyan through PURE (evil), the "graded" Super Saiyan forms, and the God/Blue swap technique. And while, in two of those instances, he eventually took up Goku's method, the GPP arc seems to suggest that he truly has given up on Whis' training.

Goku doesn't grasp the principals of MnG at this point, but he seems to understand where Whis is leading him. His knowledge that he needs to overcome this defined wall strongly guides his decision during the ToP.

He and Beerus quarrel a bit. Goku reveals the other side of the Zeno Button. This is such a classic Toriyama retcon...I feel like there's no way he planned for this, but like usual, it fits in perfectly.

One of the few things I like about the anime's handling of this arc is that Beerus threatens to kills Goku if he goes to Zeno. Well, I like the idea, anyway. It's an attempt to keep Beerus threatening and unpredictable, and I like that, but...this does feel more true to the story and characters at this point. Maybe he wouldn't save Goku, but I cannot imagine Beerus executing him with Hakai at this point, either.

And...this took me 2.5 hours to read/write. Okay...I'll try this again later, and probably pick up the pace...

[The Undying]

I don’t think this is necessarily true, so long as the intent is using a battle royale setting or structure of the ten-fighter teams as setup for the story it wants to tell, rather than spotlighting each of 80 contestants. I don’t know that the manga’s approach is perfect, but it is certainly on the right path in leaning closer to that use of the setting.

To elaborate, by "needless bloat", I just meant that the sheer number of contestants probably doesn't justify what the story tries to achieve, but the manga makes the most of what it's given. Put another way, it's something Toyotaro had to work with rather than something Toyotaro came up with. I appreciate that the setting itself functions as the true impediment for our protagonists - at least until it whittles down to a few remaining competitors - and its contestants are meant to be instrumental to conveying that level of chaos, not characters that get "moments" that collectively dillute the story into an unfocused mess. I just think the same could perhaps have been accomplished with fewer guys. It doesn't, however, feel too jarring if expectations are framed correctly.

It's (quite literally!) greater than the sum of its parts, I suppose. The U6 arc is, as you mentioned, more consistent in execution, but the manga's US arc has so many more enjoyable highs and thematically remains some of the strongest material in all of Super for me, regardless of medium.

I also want to point out how much this chapter reminds you who Goku is - a hick. A TRUE hick...not just someone who talks informally. It's not necessarily flattering. He's not an American family man. Hell, he's someone you might not even like if you met. Goku's appeal is not in being a role model. Some people seem to find this side of him irritating. I think it makes him unique and interesting.

He fights the theives. He doesn't have to do this. He could grab the truck and fly/teleport away. Goku's a good guy, but he is not a "turn the other cheek" type of guy. If you deserve a beating, he'll give it to you, and he'll do it with a smirk. He'll get irritated if you don't learn your lesson, and he'll lecture you about getting a job. Intentionally hypocritical.

Goku is excited that, with the reward, Chichi will let him stop working for a while. I'll try not to get too far into the "Goku is/isn't a terrible father" discussion, but certainly, his relationship with Chichi is that of two isolated weirdos. Their "love" is not one you are meant to relate to. She doesn't need him around all the time, and he doesn't want to be. Chichi wants to be a wife based on her sheltered/conservative view of what that means. Goku married her because he didn't understand what he was getting into. That's just how it is. I feel like people who had such a problem with the "Goku and Chichi never kissed" joke/fact are missing something critical. Later in the chapter, we found out Goku was not present for the birth of Gohan (we knew Goten), and may not have even seen Chichi during the 9 months of her pregnancy (or wasn't around long enough to notice or ask about it). Whis is clueless and the look on Vegeta's face is priceless.

Very well said.

Goku's hardly a bad guy, but too often do people appear to dramatically overstate his "good" qualities while ignoring all of his less admirable traits and behaviors that jointly make him one of the most endearing characters in shonen fiction. He's not much of a family man (Toriyama has openly stated as much, if it wasn't already obvious in the original run) and his overall relationship with his wife/sons, while loving in its own way, certainly presents exchanges that socially-adjusted folks would not espouse under most circumstances.

Goku is often selfish, irresponsible and even hypocritical. That was true of Toriyama's manga and it's true of the Super manga. That's fine. Well-written characters are flawed.

[LoganForkHands73]

The point about Goku being willing to unnecessarily beat down the robbers is interesting. Some may dichotomise it against how a "perfect" hero such as Superman would react in the same situation. The truth is, Superman isn't so different and would probably do the exact same thing. I like Grant Morrison's essays on Superman, how he hates the idea of him being characterised as a simpering, Christ-like, "turn-the-other-cheek" type of guy. Superman doesn't surrender to the bully, he punches the bully. Why do I bring this up? Because we prefer Goku to punch the bully too. That's how both characters should be. Of course, the main difference is that Superman has a bit more self-awareness about his actions, lol.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Ok were getting there but I still don't get it, what crowd would Monaka black be in?

The crowd of Zamases at West City in Chapter 26. I basically played 'Where's Waldo (Monaka Edition)' on that scene and, alas, came up with no 'Easter Eggs' to link to the Interstitial. Is basically what I'm saying.

*Marvel Lore Snip*

Huh. How 'bout that. Thanks for the info! With respect to the 'number of the beast' rationale, it's noteworthy that there are Greek manuscripts of the Apocalypse of John that have the 'number of the beast' at 616 in any case, and several scholars consider it to be original rather than a textual error.

(Noteworthy to whom, you ask? Indeed.)

I think they know how it works, have no reason to go back further in the past, and want to rid all the currently existing worlds which is plenty, but by all means believe what you like I s'pose.

You may very well be right; my grasp of how Dragon Ball does time travel...isn't all I'd like it to be, sometimes

It's just that, with the idea of extermination mortals in the past raised as a goal - beyond simply killing the heroes Zamas has a grudge against - it just made sense to me that the end-point of that ambition might be to try and create realities that basically never had any mortals at all, or at least that were 'nipped in the bud' before they could do any 'damage' to the planets - that would be the most 'balanced', most 'perfect' situation of all, from the perspective of Zamas.

If anyone wanted a modern Dragon Ball story with the atmosphere and gags of early Dragon Ball, this is the one, and it shows that Toyotaro has the chops to pull off DB's tone in a way that no other artist/writer not named Toriyama seems capable of doing. There's plenty of worldbuilding to boot if you're into it.

Unfortunately, I think there's a good reason a lot of readers may not be as invested in this one on revisits.

I wonder whether part of it, besides your insight, is that the arc is swiftly becoming something of a tonal outlier in Dragon Ball Super. With each of the other arcs being all very Things Are Serious And The Stakes Could Not Be Higher, the Universe 6 arc seems less obviously memorable, somehow. Perhaps another arc with a similar tone is called for somewhere towards the end, to 'bookend' the whole thing and leave us with the abiding sense that despite the trials and tribulations along the way, it's all been okay in Dragon World - this'd maybe help it marry up a bit more with the original ending, too.

Warning: I'm going to overanalyze these chapters. I thought it'd be fun to spend more time thinking about minute details.

Overanalysing chapters on the basis of minute details gives me life right now, so (in the parlance of these times) inject posts like this directly into my veins. Sterling work, sir.

[Cipher]

To elaborate, by "needless bloat", I just meant that the sheer number of contestants probably doesn't justify what the story tries to achieve, but the manga makes the most of what it's given. Put another way, it's something Toyotaro had to work with rather than something Toyotaro came up with. I appreciate that the setting itself functions as the true impediment for our protagonists - at least until it whittles down to a few remaining competitors - and its contestants are meant to be instrumental to conveying that level of chaos, not characters that get "moments" that collectively dillute the story into an unfocused mess. I just think the same could perhaps have been accomplished with fewer guys. It doesn't, however, feel too jarring if expectations are framed correctly.

I guess I'm of two minds on it. Eighty characters is certainly more than it can feature even as brief cameos (though ... does it need to?), but if you think of it as springing from the idea of wanting a 1--member team for Universe 7--which is pretty reasonable in terms of letting the final combination of characters feel surprising and meaningful, and also has a cast in which everyone plays a role (even if said role is, a la Tenshinhan and Piccolo, establishing the idea of hectic surprises)--then 80 total contestants is just the following logic.

The only thing that might feel unnatural about it/betray the idea that the manga wasn't written in a vacuum is that they're all given detailed character designs, and names, if only in the interstitials. One would imagine that if the manga were written on its own without the multimedia backdrop of Super, there might have been more faceless/minimally presented contestants, a la Tenkaichi Budokai preliminaries. (I also don't feel all the distinct designs hurt the story in the manga any, though; it's fun to take a gander at the different teams of contestants even when they're just there to fill out numbers).

In other words: I don't think 10 characters is too many for Universe 7, which I guess means I don't think 80 is too many for the tournament as a whole. As long as you're going to pick your few to focus on and find one or two big events to thin out the stragglers, the total number feels pretty immaterial. I feel like people still have a hard time shaking the multimedia campaign of the Universal Survival arc that made each character their own, highlighted thing. On paper/as the manga goes about it, there's nothing stranger about having 80 fighters, only some of which receive major roles, than there is about specifying 100+ fighters in each TB preliminary simply to set scale. Or, for another battle royale example, the tournament that kicks off Z Movie 9.

[TobyS]

Yeah to demand character development for like 65 new people was unreasonable from the get go you can't complain feel let down when your expectations are unreasonable to start with.

The budokai contestants are a good point of comparison.

Plus they all got designs.

I always theorised that it was done to test potential spin offs as like a back door pilot. Especially with the different genres of universes.

They could always revisit them later as well so nothings really lost. People are just addicted to whinging.

I wish if they did have so many be fodder to kales kiaiai they'd have at least given some to ten and Kuririn first.

[Cipher]

1--member team for Universe 7

*Past the edit window. This was supposed to say "10-member team."

[precita]

So I re-read the TOP in the manga to see why I disliked it so much compared to the anime version, and now I remember, here's some random thoughts not necessarily in order:

- The exhibition round was better in the anime. We got to see Universe 9 introduced, Boo had a fight, Gohan had a fight, and Goku got Bergamo before Top. This was far more exciting than to just see Beerus stomp all the other Gods in the manga. Boo getting a fight in the anime was likely done purposely because they knew Toriyama had him replaced in the TOP, kudos to the anime staff for that. It's a great fight.

- Caulifa/Kale have no sense of friendship or dynamic in the manga, and what little we get out of it is rushed. In the anime we see them fight together and take out the 5 other Pride Troopers together, which isn't in the manga. Kale when she's beserk takes out like 3 universes on her own in the manga including her own teammates (Magetta and the two Nameks), and it's absurd. Kale wipes out like 70% of the fighters in the manga. Also really liked Caulifa/Kale vs. Goku in the anime over Freeza, since Goku was training them mid-fight.

- Speaking of that, I hated how the two Namekians did nothing in the manga. They appear for one panel to be blown off by Kale. Absurd, in the anime we got a pretty well done fight with them and Gohan/Piccolo and a fairly good backstory. Also the Yardrat guy was just blown off without a speaking role in the manga whereas in the anime his fight with Freeza and Gohan was well done.

- Kefla was completely wasted in the manga. In the anime she has the most memorable and one of the best written fights against Goku with fantastic animation and tactics. In the manga most of her fight with Gohan is off-panel and then she just loses.

- Now let's talk about U7. Krillin and Tien literally do nothing in the manga, the anime at least gave Krillin a full ep fighting with 18. Both 18 and Piccolo are handled terribly in the manga too. In the anime 18 lasts very late into the tournament, takes out several fighters including Ribrianne, then she and 17 act as Goku's bodyguards which is thematic given they were created to kill him. 18 was like the MVP in the anime fighting with bother her brother and on her own. Gohan has some brief fights with the trio de danger then most of his fight with Kefla is off-panel, so all of Gohan's great moments from the anime are completely gone.

- Master Roshi dodging Jiren's attacks is nonsensical, I'm sorry. No matter how hard they try to spin it, it doesn't make sense. In the anime we saw him use techniques from the original Dragonball and justify his role in the tournament and take out some of the U4 fighters. The fight he has with Frost and Goku saving him crying was also great.

- Also the U3 robots turning to that giant monster and getting defeated in one punch was hilariously bad in the manga, I know not everyone liked that giant monster in general, but the anime gave us a huge team-up of Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Freeza/17 all working together to take it down with 17 breaking through it's shield and defenses.

- Now for the finale, I can't get over how boring Toppo's defeat was in the manga. In the anime we see him and Vegeta fight for some time and him become a God of Destruction candidate, in the manga he and Dyspo just stand on rocks and lose because Jiren won't save them. It's just a boring end.

- The Goku/Freeza team-up to take out Jiren was also extremely dull and straightforward in the manga, whereas the anime had me on the edge of my seat since it's the final ep of the show. Goku/Freeza taking out Jiren was done amazingly well in the anime, in the manga it's pretty much just one brief knock out.

Lastly, Ultra Instinct is barely a thing in the manga. It only shows up toward the tail-end of the Jiren fight then disappears when Goku loses his energy leading to the end. In the anime Goku triggering it after falling into the Spirit Bomb early in the tournament, then using it again against Kefla, all before the final time with Jiren was done better. We saw Goku trigger it 3 times in the anime and it made an impact.

The anime did a good job taking out some fodder characters (half of Gowasu's universe 10 was knocked out quickly or off-screen for example), but they managed to make almost every character matter. The TOP in the anime is only 34 episodes too (it starts in episode 97 and ends with episode 131), so it's not even that long by Dragonball standards, and every episode focused on a different character. This is not even going into detail the animation or music which of course the manga can't have, and the well done shots and sequences we got in the anime.

I guarantee had the anime TOP been exactly like the manga version, the saga would have been absolutely hated everywhere online. People would have been pissed. You saw how much people complained when characters like Tenshinhan didn't do much in the anime, now imagine that for everyone. The TOP is also great when you marathon it and not waiting week after week, so it never felt like it was dragging either if you watch it through a few eps per day instead of once a week like it originally aired.

There's more I can say but I can't remember everything off the top of my head, but this is the gist of it.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I think I should break in here, since we're on the Tournament of Power arc now, just to make one thing clear about the character of this thread.

I'm aware that the fandom is quite polarised on the depictions of this particular arc (manga and anime), and I think plenty of topics have been devoted to arguing which one is better. So before any conversation strays down this particular avenue too far and this becomes a "thing", I'd just like to emphasise:

This topic is a manga appraisal thread. This is very much not a Manga-Anime comparison thread. If any contributors wish to rehash this particular (extremely dull and unrewarding) argument again, they are by all means welcome to make yet another topic for it. Critique of the manga or disliking any part of it is surely fair enough, but I'd request that it is:

1. Presented as a constructive critique, rather than a re-trotting of "anime good, manga bad"; "nuh-uh"; "yuh-huh", etc., and
2. An assessment of the manga on its own terms, rather than by comparison to something that is not really relevant to the topic.

Thanks y'all.

[batistabus]

I've read most DBS chapters at least 5 times each, so I decided to try to save some time by writing as I read.

Chapter 28
The backgrounds of Zeno's house feel somewhat out of place for DB. The complexness of the galaxies and nebulae are something that would only be feasible with digital drawing techniques in this modern age. Still, I think it works well enough and sufficiently suits the realm of the King of Everything.

The Zenos are childish and fickle. Using a chess-like game as a catalyst for the destruction of unnecessary universes feels right in line with these characters and the tone of DB. While Beerus thinks Goku will doom the universe, it turns out that his recklessness leads to their only chance at survival. Goku's not any less "poisonous" for this outcome, but he's lucky and "special" enough to absolve himself (if we're talking karma, perhaps). This is how Goku gets by at the end of the day. Even if he fucks up, his attitude, outlook, good fortune, and unlikely friends ensure that things will turn out just fine in the end (with varying degrees of collateral damage).

Universe 1 and 12 are in the lead in terms of Human Level. As they are twin universes, it makes sense that they'd be somewhat close in rank, as is the case with Universes 6 and 7. Universe 12 has also been stated to have invented time travel in the last arc, but as Universe 7 has also done this, it's hard to say if this has any effect on Human Level.

I want to know more about Zeno's body guards. Actually, I probably don't, but I have a lot of questions. Why does Zeno need protection beyond the Great Priest? Are they divine beings? They exhibit anger towards those who would insult Zeno and fear from Zeno himself in ways that the Angels do not. Whatever...Toriyama likes his attendants, so I don't expect we'll be learning much more than we've already seen.

I liked seeing the home worlds of all of the Gods of Destruction. Arak's world was reused concept art for Beerus' world in BoG. I think Arak has a somewhat polarizing design, but I like him, and I like the atmosphere of his realm. I find it interesting that Toriyama saw fit to redesign Helles' world (I think he only added the pool?). Even though we just moved on from the Zamasu story, it feels nostalgic to see Gowasu again...I feel for him every time he appears on screen this arc.

Rumoosh getting especially mad that Beerus helped further plays into the narrative that Beerus is "the most troublesome God of Destruction" - Goku Black, which we'll see more of going forward. It's funny, but it also makes me proud of Beerus in a way. It's a similar feeling to the pride I get for Earth having the best food in any universe.

When Sidra's character design was first revealed, I predicted his name would be Stout. I thought it would work as a beer pun and as a short fat man pun. This bad prediction runs in the same vein as some who predicted a Moscow Mule donkey GoD. Dragon Ball is punny, but we have to remember that Tori/Toyo are not exactly fluent in English.

Vermoud leaves a particularly strong impression with his scene. I always push back on the "Toyotaro did X with Y character because he's a fanboy", but in this case, he does seem partial to Vermoud. He got to design this character with Toriyama (what a fucking honor) and he uses him for his Twitter icon. Vermoud is certainly an important character for this arc, but Toyotaro seems to have a lot of fun drawing his expressions. And all I'll say about Toriyama's corrections to this scene, specifically his relationship with Marcarita, is...thank God.

Seeing Vermoud Hakai that woman just further cements my opinion that Goku does indeed Hakai the boulder on top of Moro in the most recent chapter.

While we're on the subject of Vermoud...I have to say that I find it extremely jarring to hear/see this character referred to as "Belmod". It's possibly the most offensive name localization of Super (outside of Ultra Instinct, but at least that one is somewhat understandable). It in no way conveys the pun (vermouth), doesn't sound like the Japanese pronunciation, and I just think it straight up sounds dumb.

I like the joke about Universe 8 being late because their Kaioshin needed to use the bathroom, but I think the comedic timing could've been better. The punchline is given to you four times (their Angel warns the Great Priest, you see them missing from the assembled Gods, the Great Priest mentions that they are missing, and then they show up with Kaioshin's robes still undone). I think it would've landed better if the Great Priest summoned everyone, the reader sees everyone assemble except Universe 8 and wonders why, and THEN we find out it's because their Kaioshin was using the bathroom as they're teleported in. Alternatively, everyone could've been beamed in at once with the Kaioshin fixing his robes. I think Toyotaro does a good job of coming up with gags in the spirit of Dragon Ball (far better than anyone else besides Toriyama), but he sometimes bloats them just a little more than necessary. STILL, this is done to allow some time for inner monologues and bickering between Beerus and Champa, so while I think it could've been funnier, it was clearly done purposefully.

The inclusion of Toppo in this scene is really cool. Whereas Kaioshin are the chosen few of a special race of beings (Shin-jin), any human strong and motivated enough can become a God of Destruction. It really sets up Universe 11 as the true adversary of the arc, with everyone else outside of Universe 6 feeling like scenery and novelty, which is completely fine as a premise. It's also a perfect excuse to squeeze in another fight here, but I'll talk about that exhibition when we get there.

Geen, who seems like the most intimidating GoD based on his character design, shows a fearful/shocked expression. Is that intentional characterization, or another example of Toyotaro getting lax with expressions? He calls Vermoud a jerk later on for blind-siding Sidra, and he continues to show shocked expressions later in the arc, but I've already read into this too much.

I'm not sure how I feel about Mosco. I like elements about him, but I'm not sure I love the overall package. I don't think his robotic design really lives up to Toriyama's standard. I don't find the beeping language particularly funny. I think it's interesting that he's a modified Lood from DBGT, but I hate GT and everything about it (outside of Toriyama's original concept drawings), and I see no need to incorporate any of its elements as fanservice (Lood was called a Hakaishin) despite "incorporating existing non-canon ideas" being part of Super's formula. I do like the "man behind the curtain" gag for what it is. Mosco's mechanical nature combined with Ea's glasses seems to have inspired one of my favorite DB fanarts where Ea is the scientist that designs the mech.

I LOVE the concept of a GoD exhibition match. It further emphasizes Zeno's cruelty, we get to see all of these new and powerful characters face off, we get to see some lazy GoDs exerted a bit, and it organically plays into the process of determining the rules for the tournament. It's a cool fight with a lot going on.

Beerus lost to Quitela arm-wrestling once. This fits right in line with his food battles with Champa and Mario Kart battle with Kaio. It also fits into a universal hide-and-seek match that Beerus ruined (and almost doomed all of existence) by falling asleep. Just fantastic.

"Good luck, Beerus!" from Goku cracks me up, and I'll go ahead and claim that as my favorite panel of the chapter. He snaps and reveals the situation, giving the other GoDs an additional reason to hate him (among unstated others illuded to by Whis). They gang up on him. We see an application of the principals of MnG. Is this Beerus' version of Omen? The Champa fake-out is a standout moment. Poor Sidra fails to grasp the nature of their situation, but Vermoud is happy to teach him that lesson. Goku's excited. So am I!

[The Undying]

I wonder whether part of it, besides your insight, is that the arc is swiftly becoming something of a tonal outlier in Dragon Ball Super. With each of the other arcs being all very Things Are Serious And The Stakes Could Not Be Higher, the Universe 6 arc seems less obviously memorable, somehow.

Maybe. Battle of Gods is also somewhat lighter in tone, aside from the threat Beerus poses, but still contains a number of impactful character beats (Vegeta's, for example, which collectively shows how far he's come as a family man after Boo, even when those beats are played up for comedy) to cast them in a new light under somewhat new circumstances. BoG does a lot to "grip" the audience, despite tonally being more reminiscent of Toriyama's earliest/modern work with Dragon Ball and related series.

Outside of Vegeta's interactions with Cabba, I don't feel like the U6 arc strives to be as 'refreshing' with the characters, as it were. It's all very inconsequential in virtually every aspect, and while that's perfectly fine so long as the premise is clear enough about it, it can sort of dampen the experience on re-reads -- at least for me. It's very much competently written, consistent, and true to the characters, but I think it's a good case for why pure consistency may not necessarily be enough.

I'd totally be down for a lighter bookend arc/epilogue, though. That would appropriately leave Super on a high note, I think.

[TobyS]

I think I should break in here, since we're on the Tournament of Power arc now, just to make one thing clear about the character of this thread.

I'm aware that the fandom is quite polarised on the depictions of this particular arc (manga and anime), and I think plenty of topics have been devoted to arguing which one is better. So before any conversation strays down this particular avenue too far and this becomes a "thing", I'd just like to emphasise:

This topic is a manga appraisal thread. This is very much not a Manga-Anime comparison thread. If any contributors wish to rehash this particular (extremely dull and unrewarding) argument again, they are by all means welcome to make yet another topic for it. Critique of the manga or disliking any part of it is surely fair enough, but I'd request that it is:

1. Presented as a constructive critique, rather than a re-trotting of "anime good, manga bad"; "nuh-uh"; "yuh-huh", etc., and
2. An assessment of the manga on its own terms, rather than by comparison to something that is not really relevant to the topic.

Thanks y'all.

I was about to respond to that guy paragraph by paragraph but thanks for setting it up so I'm a better poster in the thread if I don't have to hahaha.

Yeah there's plenty of space for that elsewhere.

[Cipher]

Vermoud leaves a particularly strong impression with his scene. I always push back on the "Toyotaro did X with Y character because he's a fanboy", but in this case, he does seem partial to Vermoud. He got to design this character with Toriyama (what a fucking honor) and he uses him for his Twitter icon. Vermoud is certainly an important character for this arc, but Toyotaro seems to have a lot of fun drawing his expressions. And all I'll say about Toriyama's corrections to this scene, specifically his relationship with Marcarita, is...thank God.

Toyotaro's partialness toward Vermoud is something I noted during my most recent reread too. By "partialness," I suppose I just mean that it's clear he has fun drawing him whenever he appears on the page. He's quite expressive, though I think his best moments on that front come a bit ahead of where the thread stands right now--on the other side of Goku's fight with Toppo.

I did wonder if it Vermoud's major role as the antagonist God of Destruction in the arc was a result of Toyotaro's partialness toward his design, or the other way around. We'll probably never know, though it feels like it could be either. I'm a little sympathetic to the suggestion that Quitela would have fit the role too, for a hilariously simple cat-mouse rivalry in the background of the more serious drama with Goku and Jiren.

Re: Relationship with Marcarita: I have to disagree. It's probably the sole known Toriyama correction/creative veto I think was the wrong call. It would have been refreshing to have gotten one GoD/angel relationship with a different dynamic. Also, in the scrapped storyboard pages we have from the interview in which that change was revealed, Marcarita and Vermoud appear to just be ... in a nice house? ... instead of the clown-themed planet that ultimately winds up in the manga, and I'm all for DB being quietly weird like that.

Seeing Vermoud Hakai that woman just further cements my opinion that Goku does indeed Hakai the boulder on top of Moro in the most recent chapter.

The debate of our times. Honestly, I always forget that Vermoud slips in another appearance of that technique here.

I suppose eventually the color version can wind up being our unofficial arbiter on the rock, as they insist on coloring the resulting dust from the technique purple.

I like the joke about Universe 8 being late because their Kaioshin needed to use the bathroom, but I think the comedic timing could've been better. The punchline is given to you four times (their Angel warns the Great Priest, you see them missing from the assembled Gods, the Great Priest mentions that they are missing, and then they show up with Kaioshin's robes still undone). I think it would've landed better if the Great Priest summoned everyone, the reader sees everyone assemble except Universe 8 and wonders why, and THEN we find out it's because their Kaioshin was using the bathroom as they're teleported in. Alternatively, everyone could've been beamed in at once with the Kaioshin fixing his robes. I think Toyotaro does a good job of coming up with gags in the spirit of Dragon Ball (far better than anyone else besides Toriyama), but he sometimes bloats them just a little more than necessary. STILL, this is done to allow some time for inner monologues and bickering between Beerus and Champa, so while I think it could've been funnier, it was clearly done purposefully.

This is an aspect that's hit and miss for me, though I think more hits than not. Occasionally a joke will have its punchline driven in one two many times, but there are just as many where he lets a one-panel punchline speak for itself or slips a dry background gag in, which feels very in the spirt of DB for me. We've just had some of the latter (the visual gag of the Oracle Fish munching on daifuku, or alerting Whis that there's a "staff for him," with the language of a phone-call, which unfortunately gets left out in the translation), and we'll have a mix of both as the ToP itself begins. (Turtle Hermit eschewing the fact that he can't fly anyway winds up being horribly belabored, whereas the timing of the punchline panel to Kuririn's role in the Ribrianne fight is quite funny and left to stand on its own.) There's a mix of both in the Moro arc afterward as well.

The revelation of how exactly Beerus earned the ire of the other Gods of Destruction is also a fittingly strange and funny beat that I don't think is belabored too much. As is Vermoud celebrating a completely arbitrary number of days as a God of Destruction. (One gets the sense that he simply picks days to do this on from time to time.)

[batistabus]

I did wonder if it Vermoud's major role as the antagonist God of Destruction in the arc was a result of Toyotaro's partialness toward his design, or the other way around. We'll probably never know, though it feels like it could be either. I'm a little sympathetic to the suggestion that Quitela would have fit the role too, for a hilariously simple cat-mouse rivalry in the background of the more serious drama with Goku and Jiren.

I like that idea, and I suppose Quitela does seem like the more obvious fit for this arc. I haven't thought much about how Beerus pairs up with Vermoud. I don't recall many interactions between them, but I guess that's sort of an interesting choice in it's own right. Goku vs Jiren really isn't a reflection of their relationship; they just happen to reign over the two strongest combatants in the tournament. You could say their personalities keep them away from each other. Beerus is a trouble maker, and Vermoud isn't the kind of guy you can trust. As the GoD of the main rival universe - early on anyway - Vermoud is intimidating in a way that Quitela couldn't've been.

Re: Relationship with Marcarita: I have to disagree. It's probably the sole known Toriyama correction/creative veto I think was the wrong call. It would have been refreshing to have gotten one GoD/angel relationship with a different dynamic. Also, in the scrapped storyboard pages we have from the interview in which that change was revealed, Marcarita and Vermoud appear to just be ... in a nice house? ... instead of the clown-themed planet that ultimately winds up in the manga, and I'm all for DB being quietly weird like that.

I'd be open to an unusual dynamic between a GoD and an Angel, but I have a specific problem with the way Toyo's original take seemed to be so heavily inspired by (Jared Leto's) Joker/(Margot Robbie's) Harley Quinn. It's not necessarily that it's derivative (plenty of DB characters are "Toriyamafied" versions of existing fictional characters), but it's that I personally find the Joker/Harley Quinn dynamic so unappealing. It's similar to the overdone edginess that I dislike about the anime's take on Goku Black (though I like Nozawa's performance).

On a similar note, one of the few things Toriyama seems particular about is the way Toyo represents the god characters. He appears to have felt quite strongly about that characterization, so I take that as a lesson. While Marcarita's personality doesn't stand out quite as much as it might have, I do like how she ended up (coy but still sinister in a more subtle way).

I suppose eventually the color version can wind up being our unofficial arbiter on the rock, as they insist on coloring the resulting dust from the technique purple.

I have my issues with the color release, but I'm interested to see what they'll go with...

or alerting Whis that there's a "staff for him," with the language of a phone-call, which unfortunately gets left out in the translation

Thanks for that insight!

[Magnificent Ponta]

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 29 - 32
Part 1 (Chapters 29 and 30)



Wow. The Super Re-Read trundles on, with a whole page of comments between instalments! Thanks so much for having an interesting discussion on the Dragon Ball Super Manga, y'all. Now we've reached Volume 6 - this Volume covers the rest of the build-up to the Tournament of Power, with a balanced mix of the more 'slice-of-life' elements introduced in the last Volume and the more typical action-centred elements that Dragon Ball does so well, which I think gives this Volume a somewhat unique feel compared to the rest of the Super run so far.

As usual, thanks and credit goes to Kanzenshuu and associated parties (Herms) for a lot of the information in these threads, particularly the Japanese titles, the publication dates, and material from the interview archive to elucidate a lot of the talking points in the chapter notes.

I hope you've readied yourselves for another full-volume re-read - grab your manga, and let's get re-reading!

Chapter 29 - The Universe 11 God of Destruction Candidate, Toppo/Toppo, Universe 11 God of Destruction Candidate!
21 October 2017

Spoiler:

The exhibition match heats up further - Belmod ensnares the other Gods and slices them up with a rain of cards made of energy. Liquiir breaks free of the bubble, and sprouts nine tails - he fires a huge barrage of blasts from them at Belmod! A massive explosion takes place - the Zenos aren't sure what's going on...Heles appears, and shoots Liquiir point-blank with her bow; fortunately, Liquiir took the hit with his forearm, only leaving his face scratched. Rumsshi bellows mightily, paralysing all the Gods of Destruction (and making all the Kaioshin faint); his charge does some damage and kicks up a huge dust cloud. The fighters continue on at a level of intensity so great that Goku can't tell who's doing what, and the Zeno's have completely lost the thread of what's going on. They're bored. The Grand Priest agrees to end it...

Back on the stage, Beerus and Quitela are amongst the last standing, and they rush each other for a final attack - but the Grand Priest stops them each with a finger. He calls an end to the match, as the Zenos aren't enjoying it. All Gods of Destruction are disqualified! They are healed and withdraw (with varying degrees of relief). The Zenos and the Grand Priest are at a loss - should they cancel the tournament, and just get on with erasure? Goku overhears, and intervenes, pleading with them not to cancel the tournament. The match was too intense, but mortals don't fight like that - the Grand Priest invites Goku to demonstrate; Goku isn't sure he'll last against a God of Destruction, but the Grand Priest points out that he could fight the other mortal present -- Toppo, of Universe 11! Goku's happy with that; Toppo is surprised, but complies. The Grand Priest imposes some added restrictions to make things more watchable - no flying, no weapons, no killing, and a ring-out is the means of victory. Goku's a little perplexed at not being able to fly, but accepts it. Korun of Universe 8 takes exception to Goku's familiar tone; Whis asks for forbearance, and surprises him with the detail that Goku's familiarity stems from having once helped Zeno himself...

Toppo asks what Goku's deal it - does he want to be a God of Destruction? Goku doesn't - he just wants to get stronger, and he can tell that Toppo is incredibly strong. The match begins! Goku goes SSj to start with, and attacks - but he can't hit Toppo. The alternate-reality Zeno is intrigued that Goku has changed; 'our' Zeno knows he can fight by transforming. When Whis informs them that Goku has 5 transformations in total, the Zenos demand to see them all. Goku wasn't planning on using them all, but obliges by going SSj2, and then (when the Zenos say They can't tell the difference) SSj3! He attacks again, but it's still no good; Toppo's too powerful. He grows bored of this, and counter-attacks, decking Goku hard. The Zenos say Toppo is cool because he's strong without transforming, and he continues to put Goku under pressure - he tells him to transform, as this is a waste of time. Goku tells him not to regret it, and obliges by going SSjG. His godly aura is recognised by all present - but Toppo follows suit! Toppo attacks, but Goku takes to the air - until the Grand Priest remind him that flying is prohibited, which leaves him open to Toppo's blast. Goku gets hit, and tumbles away...but catches the edge of the ring just in time, and speeds back to the fight. Goku performs better in a fierce exchange shows all present that the pair are actually at the level of the Gods, but the Zenos are delighted at what They see.

Beerus tells Goku to go Blue and end it. Goku tells Toppo he enjoyed fighting with him, and wants to do it again in the real thing! He catches his punch, goes Blue, and charges an attack of his own to finish it - but at the crucial moment, Toppo dodges, and takes Goku out with a crushing kick to the gut! Goku sails out of bounds - Toppo is the winner! Beerus rages at Goku for screwing up, and Toppo comes down to tell him not to let his guard down in the real thing. Goku commends Toppo for his strength, and Toppo responds in kind - if he hadn't pulled off that counter, he might not have won...but he reveals that Universe 11 has another fighter, named Jiren - he's not just much stronger than Toppo...he's also stronger than their God of Destruction!!

Chapter Notes

• I like Belmod's 'energy cards' attack - obviously, it's appropriate from a design perspective, but it also just looks cool. Among the damage it does, variously depicted, is the fact that it splits Rumsshi's ear. This damage will be consistently depicted until he is healed by Kusu, his Guide Angel, later in the Chapter.

• I assume that Liquiir's rejoinder attack (and design generally) draws on Japanese legends of the Kyubi no Kitsune, or Nine-Tailed Fox Spirit. My (poorly-sourced) searches indicate that a fox spirit grows a new tail every 100 years, and a Kitsune with more tails is older and more powerful. Once it grows its ninth tail, it turns golden in colour and becomes a virtually omniscient, heaven-dwelling Tenko, or Celestial Fox. Liquiir ordinarily only displays 3 tails, but here, he's able to display all 9 and attack with them. As I say, presumably his design draws directly on this legend - I wonder whether any of the other Gods of Destruction take inspiration from Japanese Spirit Creatures?

• Favourite art: I've already mentioned that I regard Rumsshi as the most interesting and enjoyable design of all the Gods of Destruction; I'm particularly fond of all the art to do with his Battle Roar, including the roar itself and the reactions of the other Gods of Destruction, the close-up on Rumsshi's eye afterwards (which is cool), and I love everything to do with the charge, particularly the panel where he closes in on Heles - all very dynamic. But then, there's loads of really enjoyable art in this Chapter - unsurprising, since there's two fights and a bunch of transformations: the SSj3 transformation and attack panels, Toppo's first attack, Goku's SSjG transformation, Goku's SSjB punch, and Toppo's final counter are all great art, with plenty of other good stuff mixed in.

• On the subject of art, I think we might have hit peak screentone - between the Celestial backdrop, the multiplicity of character designs that have colour as a defining dimension, and the SSj God Forms, which likewise rely on tone for their depiction, I think it's only barely an exaggeration to say that there isn't a single panel in this Chapter that doesn't have it somewhere (usually just panels with a tight focus on Goku). Toriyama was relatively sparing with his use of screentone in the original manga - he claimed ineptitude to explain this (back in the time when I think it would've had to be applied manually). With digital techniques, Toyotarou has always been more liberal with its use - mostly thanks to the importance of colour in the designs, but I also get the feeling that he quite likes it. I've commented before on where his use of tone has seemed more natural than his use of pen-and-ink hatching (in the Universe 6 Tournament).

• "Everyone is quick and loud...this is boring." I guess the Zenos aren't really fans of Dragon Ball Z (such a meta comment, daaaaamn).

• Beerus and Quitela are, as indicated by their initial verbal sparring, the last Gods standing, and so probably the strongest of the Gods of Destruction. We also get a sense of the Grand Priest's might, since he blocks their full-force attacks with a finger each (and I like how disappointed Quitela looks when he finds out the fighting's over). Pretty much everyone else is laid out by this point - except Belmod, who's "playing possum" (he even refuses healing from Marcarita in the relevant panel), in spite of the Grand Priest's warning that anyone not giving their all would be erased by the Zenos. In that respect, it's fitting that Universe 11 will be defeated and erased when the fighters from Universe 7 employ a similar ploy in 超 #42.

• We're treated to something of a theme in this arc when one of the Zenos suggests destroying "the Universes we don't need" - for want of a better phrase, it's the theme of necessity. Of course, all of the Universes act under the peril of erasure, and this is from the aforementioned conviction by the Zenos that They don't "need" to watch over all 12 Universes. Jiren, as the main antagonist, is thematically solitary, declaring it "unnecessary" to help his team when they're pressured by Kefla, in 超 #38, and likewise regarding it unnecessary to save Toppo and Dyspo from elimination in 超 #40; of course, it is revealed that he secretly harbours a need for approval from his master, though at the end, he will at last dispense with this. Goku, in his own way, will track this solitary course, feeling the need to surmount a "wall" to win on his own as early as 超 #35, wrongly concluding he'll "need pure power!", achieving Ultra Instinct by getting rid of "unnecessary emotions", and finally needing various types of teamwork (the truly major theme of the arc) to finally pull out the win. Ultimately, most of the instances where 'not needing' things comes up thematically, it's only to up-end it by showing how wrong the people holding to the view are - it seems that, in Dragon World at least, more is more, and less is less.

• Goku protests about the prospective cancellation of the Tournament, on the basis that combat between mortals will be nothing like as intense as combat between Gods. I've mentioned before my opinion that in the upper echelons, at least, this is true - we've just seen Beerus get serious and whomp SSjB Vegeta in 超 #27 - but Beerus himself has already stated that Vegeta "could probably be a candidate for a God of Destruction in another Universe", and Toppo and Goku will likewise demonstrate that they belong on the same level as other Gods of Destruction during their fight, as Iwne will comment. This seems to indicate that the level of 'God of Destruction' is pretty broad overall, from a level far in excess of SSjB to perhaps as low as something approximating SSjG, when Goku first catches the attention of the Gods.

• Fortunately for the viewing enjoyment of the Zenos, very few of the assembled fighters will sport a power approaching, or on par with, the Gods of Destruction generally - Universe 7 will actually field the most in Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, and perhaps Android #17 (though he may be in the gulf between SSj3 and SSjG). Of all the other Universes, contenders of that level will only be selected by Universe 6 in Hit (and Kale, but only from 超 #37-38 - upon which she is replaced by Kefla), and Universe 11 in Toppo, maybe Dyspo (but again, the same cautions as were made for #17 apply here), and of course Jiren, whose outrageous power dwarfs everyone else's. A very considerable number of the fighters fielded overall, where their strength can be gauged at all, seem to be below even SSj level, and only God-tier fighters will remain with around 10 minutes left in the battle.

• I think Toppo's design will always just remind me of a very buff Dr. Robotnik (from the Sonic Games), and the Pride Troopers Uniform does not in any way induce me to change my view.

• Take a gander at the Grand Priest imposing a 'lessons learned' review just like that. He must've undergone a whole bunch of training sessions at Heavenly Bureaucrat School, or something...

• It's interesting that a prohibition is declared for flying, but not imposed (Goku will need reminding, when he takes to the sky), unlike in the proper Tournament, as shown in 超 #33.

• Goku doesn't even act like it, but surely this fight has to be Peak Cocky Goku. He knows for a fact that his opponent is a God of Destruction Candidate, and says he can tell "how incredibly strong you are" - he starts off in SSj (to observe, fair enough), but acts somehow chagrined to learn that "there's still a gap between us", and is surprised to learn that SSj3 does nothing either - then he's surprised that Toppo can "cast the aura of a God", and acts like he's got the whole thing in the bag when he goes for an SSjB finisher. Frankly, even though there's nothing much riding on the fight, I think he deserves to get knocked down a peg like that. Even his pursuit of Jiren in the Tournament (and taking on Toppo and Dyspo in just SSj2 in a futile attempt to draw Jiren's attention in 超 #35), hubristic though it is, isn't as arrogant as this showing, which is frankly pretty jarring in its sloppiness.

• There are, however, strong echoes of Goku's encounter with Beerus from 超 #2, which as a story beat is pretty appropriate for Goku's first fight with a God of Destruction (stand-in) since then. So, it's quite gratifying to watch Goku move up through the gears in the same way as he did with Beerus (though it's at the instigation of Zeno this time - I assume that Goku saying that he "wasn't planning on showing them all" simply means that he wouldn't have activated each one in succession, but would've just moved straight to a more appropriate form after having observed Toppo closely enough), even though the result is quite predictable. It's nice to see the divergence once Goku has actually activated a God Form, which 'flips the script' and makes the fight competitive. That said, this method does also do a good job of making Toppo look cool and like a formidable opponent - in that sense, this issue does all the good work that Toppo's fight with Vegeta, from 超 #36-40, basically lacks (or assumes, I suppose I could say).

• It's only a small panel, but I do really like the flurry of hits thrown by Toppo and SSjG Goku. I can't remember an awful lot of panels that have depictions of an exchange quite like this, with the disembodied hands flying in all directions - 超 #48 will play with this idea by showing panels like this for Buu's beatdown on Moro...only to reveal that this is because Buu's arms actually are detached.

• Since Goku loses here, it's just that little bit more effective for the escalation to immediately shift from the current focus on Toppo to the one on Jiren, and doubly so that he's above Universe 11's God of Destruction. It's a pretty effective hook.

Chapter 30 - The Man Named Jiren/The Man Named Jiren
21 November 2017

Spoiler:

Goku is astonished that Universe 11 has someone like Jiren - he thought Toppo would be the best, since he's the God of Destruction candidate. Toppo replies that, like Goku, Jiren isn't interested in that stuff, and makes to leave; Goku's really excited that people like Toppo and Jiren are out there - now he can't wait for the tournament. Toppo says he's strange. Belmod congratulates Toppo, while Beerus says Universe 7 can't win like this. Whis says that Saiyans get stronger when provoked by crisis, but Beerus says they'll need a miracle to pull this off... Meanwhile, the Zenos and the Grand Priest have figured out the rules, which the Grand Priest duly announces - each Universe must put up 10 non-deity fighters to enter the tournament - ring-out will be the only acceptable method of defeating opponents, in a single match of 100 taks (48 minutes); all the fighters will be battling at once! The team with the most fighters still in contention by the end of the allotted time will be the victorious one (or else, if everyone else is defeated, the victor is the 'last-man-standing'). Shin mentions that this means teamwork will be really important if everyone's fighting at once; the Grand Priest adds that the strongest fighter of all from the winning team will get to make a wish on the Super Dragon Balls! (He tells Champa to hand over the 3 he's already gathered). Universe 3's Kaioshin asks what the winning Universe gets on the whole. The Grand Priest says their 'reward' is to be left alone, because...all of the defeated Universes will be erased!! Zeno thinks there are too many, so this is a good chance to get rid of some.

Unsurprisingly, everyone freaks out at this - but the Grand Priest issues a reprieve for Universes 1, 12, 5 and 8 - they're the Universes with the highest Mortal levels, so they are exempt. the Gods of each erased Universe, will, naturally, be erased as well. Whis clarifies that the Tournament is, then, a chance for the low-level Universes to save themselves - the Grand Priest confirms that this is the point. Whis informs Beerus that Universe 7 is, after all, second from last in Mortal level ranking - Beerus and Shin blame each other for this state of affairs. The Grand Priest finishes by prohibiting weapons and medicines, and dismisses everyone instantly. Returned to Beerus's planet, Goku gets clobbered for landing everyone in another fine mess. Shin intervenes by saying Goku's given them a chance to save themselves, but Beerus is annoyed it comes down to fighting. Goku says it'll work out if they win, which gets him yelled at for losing to Toppo. Shin feels bad for all the innocents who'll be caught up in this, just because the Gods haven't done a good enough job... Goku suggests going back to Zeno and asking Him to call it off, but Whis warns him off of that - if he annoys Him by asking Him to reverse His express decision, Goku'll just get himself erased. The group agree to go to Bulma's to talk over the game plan and gather the fighters - and if they're gonna get erased, at least they'll get a tasty meal first... Over in Universe 11, Belmod chews over recent events, and dispatches Toppo to gather 10 Pride Troopers - but he needs to bring Jiren, above all else and without fail. Toppo departs, and Kai asks whether gathering the Pride Troopers - a pretty motley crew - is a good idea. Belmod replies that there only needs one left to win; if Jiren comes, the rest doesn't matter... and Jiren will come...

Over on Earth, the group are chowing down, while Goku gets his ear bent by Bulma and Vegeta. Shin says they need to pick their fighters. Goku picks Buu and Vegeta - Vegeta refuses to go, because his baby could be born any day now. Whis appears, and immediately induces the birth - the baby just appears in mid-air, and Whis gathers her in a blanket and hands her off to Bulma. Now Vegeta can go. Bulma asks how many planets with intelligent life there are - Shin replies 28, but he doesn't know if any of them are strong...Whis concludes that, like before, Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Buu should be nominated (Beerus de-selects Monaka). Vegeta suggests Gohan, Goku suggests Goten and Trunks instead; Vegeta shuts that down, so Goku nominates Roshi, Kuririn and Tenshinhan. Oh, and Android #18, too (she's basically Human...). Vegeta suggests if you have #18, maybe you should get #17 too; Goku doesn't know where he is - he'll ask #18. Vegeta tells him to pick up some Senzus, but Whis countermands that; medicines are prohibited - anyway, Shin says, Buu can heal with his magic, so it should be okay. Goku takes off to go see Kuririn and #18...Over in Universe 11, on the Planet Bas, a huge monster threatens a city. The Pride Troopers go into action, protecting the citizens and fighting the monster and it's children - Toppo shows up, to get involved, and asks where Jiren is; he's dealing with a situation on a remote planet...the monster sprays foam everywhere, entrapping everyone! Looks like it's got the upper hand...

But then, from the sky, a figure appears, clobbers the monster instantly, and reduces it to a capsule - it's Jiren! He took care of that other situation, flew straight to Bas, and ended things immediately. Toppo says they need to talk, but Jiren wants to help the citizens first... Belmod, meanwhile, reveals that while Jiren is perfectly virtuous, there is one thing he wants above all else, that will ensure his entry so he can get a wish... but Toppo will screw up the recruitment, so Belmod tells Kai to take him to Jiren now. Meanwhile, on Bas, the citizens have all been freed and made safe; Toppo does indeed screw up the recruitment, as Jiren says he only cares about maintaining the peace of the Universe, and isn't going to trade it off against the fate of other Universes. Toppo rebukes him - how can he risk everything like that? Is that really what he believes in? Jiren hesitates...and Belmod appears, to make his move - Jiren could get his wish... everyone takes notice that Belmod has come to personally recruit Jiren, and Toppo presses the point. Jiren reluctantly accepts, and things are looking good for Universe 11...

Chapter Notes

• Of course, the initial exchange of the Chapter serves to reinforce the theme that there's always someone stronger, and of course it sells us the excitement of this knowledge through Goku's reaction to learning this truth once again - "I'm glad there're incredible guys like you. And there're even stronger guys out there too, right?" This is also the beginning (from afar) of Goku's little fight-crush on Jiren, in which he will attempt to woo, chase, and finally beat Jiren - like most crushes, when finally consummated, it will leave Goku sweaty, exhausted, and regretful.

• So, 5 tiks is 40 hours, and 100 taks is 48 minutes. So 1 tik is 8 hours, 10 taks is 4.8 minutes, and there are therefore 1000 taks per tik. It's interesting to see the Gods using decimal time - Humanity tends to use sexagesimal time, developed by the Sumerians and their successors, but in Ancient China, the days were divided into hundredths during daylight, and Revolutionary France made a quixotic attempt at a decimal clock and calendar.

• With the introduction of the Battle Royale, 10 contenders per team rule, Teamwork gets its first mention as a theme for the arc. Of course, Goku and Vegeta working together (or not, when they ought to) has been a major theme of Dragon Ball Super to date, but the theme of teamwork generally, and of Goku and Vegeta together in particular, will get special attention, starting with this Chapter, where Goku says "I can't imagine doing this without you, Vegeta", and Whis intervenes personally to ensure that Vegeta can be involved - this gets its full payoff in 超 #41-42, where the teamwork honed by Whis comes out to play in an effective counter to Jiren.

• Champa has been gathering the Super Dragon Balls again - while it took him decades to gather all seven last time (see 超 #6) he's already gathered three in the space of about a year this time around. If he had been this prolific in the alternate reality, then he might have made Zamas's job of actually collecting the Dragon Balls somewhat easier, as he would simply have had to kill Fuwa to have 3 balls immediately fall into his grasp...

• The 4 Universes exempted from the need to compete in the Tournament of Power are two pairs of Twin Universes - 1, 12, 5, and 8. None of their Gods of Destruction seemed to perform especially well in the Exhibition Match in 超 #29 - Iwne (Universe 1) was shown to be K.O'ed by Quitela, and Geene (Universe 12), Arack (Universe 5) and Liquiir (Universe 8 ) are all shown laid out as well - it goes to show that sheer power isn't sufficient to make a capable God of Destruction, but rather diligence and good judgement are paramount, and their Mortal Levels being above 7 (out of 10, presumably?) reflects this. Whis mentions that Universe 7 has a Mortal Level of 3.18 - second from bottom - the rankings of Universes proceed almost completely in order of twinned pairs, with only the rock-bottom Universe 9 breaking this pattern: the order is 1, 12, 5, 8, 11, 2, 3, 10, 4, 6, 7, 9.

• The phrasing "all Gods besides the Guide Angels" is an interesting phrasing, from the perspective of Western Culture, where Angels are typically regarded as subordinate and subservient to God(s). Moro will likewise allude to this fact of their generally equivalent status in 超 #63, when he notes that he cannot sense energy from Merus (whereas he could previously), and asks him, "Are you some manner of deity?" It seems that Angels simply belong to a different Clade of divine being, on par with other Gods, in Dragon World.

• Whis's point that the Tournament is a chance to be spared makes the point as clearly as the story can that This Is Not Really Goku's Fault, which Shin will re-emphasise a few pages later. However, as Beerus points out, the means of selection is questionable - it's not clear that any particular Universe will be spared by dint of being a better-developed Universe, but rather on the basis of its ability to entertain Zeno through fighting.

• Shin's attitudes are interesting in light of the argument in the previous arc over the proper role of a Kaioshin in fostering the growth of their Universes. Beerus's criticism that Shin insists that mortals have to achieve development by their own devices seems to be the same basic attitude as Gowas evidences in his arguments with Zamas in 超 #16-17; the role of Kaioshin is to observe, keep the peace, and let the various mortal worlds find their own solutions. Of course, as we've seen, Universe 10 is in the lower half of the mortal rankings, so perhaps this is an indictment of what could be thought of as (and has been argued to be) a slightly complacent approach. Toriyama has said that the Kaioshin might do several things to provide necessary conditions for, nurture and protect mortal life - such as creating life, moving it elsewhere, multiplying planets, etc. even though their job is primarily one of observation. A Kaioshin therefore has a 'Creator-Maintainer' dynamic to their role that perhaps Gods like Shin aren't doing enough to foster. Creditably, Shin will take this judgement to heart in reflecting that the mess they find themselves in is due to their own incompetence, but also hordes of unsuspecting life-forms likewise stand judged. Fortunately, the actions of mortals will not only save Universe 7, but actually slightly raise its mortal level by means of a wish that restores all of the erased Universes.

• Goku and Beerus's exchange always gives me a good chuckle - "it'll work out if we win" - "you just lost to that guy" - "yeah, well, he was tough"

• At Belmod's planet (which Cipher helpfully specified actually is the same place as where we saw him earlier), he has various items lying around that weren't seen there before (either as objects 'ordinarily' there, or maybe as a reflection of how the night went after Belmod and co. returned) - including the beach ball he converts into a rain of petals, a birdcage (I can't tell whether there's actually a bird in it), some silly hats (including a crown), jumbo toy blocks, a Jenga-like game, and, sinisterly, an animal (horse?) skull. The planet itself conforms to the usual design for planets of the Gods of Destruction, only (appropriately) a Big-Top circus tent dominates. The fact that Toppo is capable of reaching it using a spacecraft indicates that it is in the mortal sphere of Universe 11, despite the rather heavenly-looking clouds below it. I speculated previously that perhaps these 'planets' can move, so a further speculation might be that Belmod's planet is in the sky of the planet Belmod was intending to destroy...

• Toppo implies that there are many more Pride Troopers than what we see in this arc, "in their own respective locations"; so this implies that those selected to fight were just used because they happened to be where Toppo expected to find Jiren, rather than being specifically selected. Kai calls them "a motley crew of people with different ideologies and backgrounds", but this isn't really expanded on except with reference to Jiren himself, who has an ulterior motive prompting his participation - in the Tournament of Power itself (especially 超 #38), a great deal is made of how cohesive a team they actually are, which points up their ability to take on opponents far beyond their individual powers, such as Kale.

• The pre-game meal for Universe 7 includes a cheese board, a platter of burgers (and they are huge - take a look at Vegeta chowing down on one...and then compare with the cover for Volume 11, I guess), dumplings, sushi, pizza, some sort of triangular sliced loaf or cake(?), and two enormous haunches of meat. Just a light snack, then. Goku will follow this up with three helpings of food at Kuririn's, kebabs with Android #17, enough food to send him to sleep at Tenshinhan's place, a "big meal" at Baba's place, and a Senzu Bean.

• The drawing of Bra in mid-air is perhaps the most awkward drawing of a newborn baby that there has ever been - the diaper probably doesn't help, but her body is just so chunky relative to her head (and the hairstyle heightens the weird 'this isn't really a baby' feeling). Looking at a different angle, I guess this makes Bra the first Human born wearing clothes in all of recorded history. On that note, how does Vegeta know she's a girl...? Presumably by the thickness of her eyelashes and the fineness of her eyebrows?

• I'd like to take this opportunity to add my voice to the chorus of annoyance at there only apparently being 28 planets with mortal life on them in Universe 7; I dislike the weird constraining of options this represents, despite the fact that the dialogue treats this like it's a large number, for some reason - with the Universes repeatedly said to be vast, and with numbers readily to hand as proverbial expressions for 'a lot' in Japan (most notably 800 and 3000, as we've repeatedly been told due to the Yakon-Goku fight from DB #451), why is such a comparatively small number used for "that many" here? I think that, among other things, it's diverted much of the fanbase into expecting some sort of 'fix' for a 'problem' that I'm not sure is actually being set up here; this dissonance is exacerbated with Moro's spree on eating planets in 超 #51-56 (and one might assume that this would mean the destruction of mostly inhabited planets), so if there was no intention of setting up this easily-comprehensible number of inhabited planets as a problem, then it was extremely short-sighted.

• The order of nomination goes Goku-Vegeta-Piccolo-(Buu)-Roshi-Tenshinhan-Kuririn-#18-#17-Gohan-Freeza, but the actual order of recruitment runs Goku-Vegeta-Kuririn-#18-#17-Roshi-Tenshinhan-Piccolo-Gohan-Freeza; the ease of recruitment is something else again, as only Goku, Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Gohan don't raise some sort of objection to participation at some point or other (whether because of a newborn baby, money, 'just 'cause', being scared, or 'being evil') - which, given the seemingly overriding priority of the erasure of the Universe, is a pretty weird attitude for most of them to take.

• Over on Planet Bas - the Pride Troopers face off against a monster; it's been pointed out that the monster is named Choki, from the Dr. Slump spin-off Dr. Mashirito and Abale-chan - it is the bio-weapon from the invading "Tech-Tech" aliens, who seem to be variously represented (or otherwise are so simply designed that they bear a strong resemblance to other aliens) in several Toriyama (-derived) works - Toriyama has explained that most of his aliens look like this, so at least the Tech-Tech and the aliens from Neko Majin are supposed to be different. The most likely other candidates for 'Tech-Tech' in Dragon Ball works are Gure, Tarble's wife from Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return!, and Irico, the Galactic Patrolman from the Moro arc. If this were so, then the Tech-Tech are either able to traverse Universes (we are in Universe 11 here, after all), or else they may be a species who have representatives in more than one Universe (see also: Jimeze of Universe 2, who appears to be a type of Yardrat...maybe).

• Planet Bas appears to have many types of sentient life, so either the 'monster human' type of element is much more pronounced than on Earth (according to Daizenshuu #7, only 7% of Earthlings are 'monster humans'), or else Bas is more integrated with its wider Universal population than Earth is - Earth is mentioned to be an outskirts backwater, whereas Bas seems relatively advanced, so it may be something of a hub in Universe 11.

• Jiren gets a suitably impressive introduction, given how he's been built up: he flies unaided from a distant planet (faster than even the fastest spaceships) to tonk the bad guy on the head, toss him into the air and convert him into some sort of capsule, while even Toppo is restricted to watching on the sidelines. I think this sequence also gets my vote for favourite art in the way that it manages to convey Jiren's power (particularly the initial point of impact, and also the panel where Jiren punches Choki into the air, which really gives a nicely vertiginous feeling - I also think that the monster converted into a capsule is pleasingly cute), and it's all capped off with a nice (Toriyama-derived) panel for the first proper shot of Jiren.

• So, Belmod's intention is to offer Jiren 'the wish' as a secret desire that he has, which is implied to somehow undercut his perfectly virtuous conduct. Jiren's single-minded focus on serving Universe 11, his total commitment to justice, and his refusal to kill his enemies, even refusing to step on other Universes to ensure their survival, is played up here to let us know that he really is a good guy, because every other showing we get of him paints him as aloof, solitary, and unpleasant - and this harsh and unyielding aspect of his character is pointed up by his blunt refusal of Toppo's request (and incidentally, it's interesting that Belmod thinks Toppo won't be able to get the job done, which is either a comment on Toppo's surprising softness or Jiren's inability to budge once he takes a position, as you prefer). We'll get more opportunities to go into this, and also into the significance of the wish, but Jiren is ultimately The Wall in his characterisation - an impassive, unyielding obstacle that Goku has to find the wherewithal to surmount.

• And finally - I really do enjoy the interstitial after the chapter, which does a good comedic job of undercutting the sureness that Belmod exudes in the last pages of the chapter.

Okay then - that's all from me for now, but I'll be back at the end of the week with Chapters 31 and 32, as we round off the recruitment phase of this arc. Have at it - what did you guys get from your re-read?