It just occurred to me. If Dragon Ball Evolution had been good... The franchise would have ended there.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Lets not mince words, it was Toriyama's contempt for the movie that motivated him to continue Dragon Ball. These realization had me stunned.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Toriyama may have not returned for a lot of the newer material we've seen, but I think Dragon Ball still would have continued.

Yusuke Watanabe began writing the initial draft of Battle of Gods with the caped Super Saiyan God and where the character that became Beerus was an evil lizard that infected his opponents with evil in 2011. The movie we know and love was reworked by Toriyama, but he didn't conceive or initiate production of it, meaning it would have been made, and likely would still have been successful enough to warrant sequels, and possibly a long running series like Super too.

It would have been interesting to see where things would have gone if we had TOEI-exclusive projects going forward though.

[WittyUsername]

Toriyama may have not returned for a lot of the newer material we've seen, but I think Dragon Ball still would have continued.

Yusuke Watanabe began writing the initial draft of Battle of Gods with the caped Super Saiyan God and where the character that became Beerus was an evil lizard that infected his opponents with evil in 2011. The movie we know and love was reworked by Toriyama, but he didn't conceive or initiate production of it, meaning it would have been made, and likely would still have been successful enough to warrant sequels, and possibly a long running series like Super too.

It would have been interesting to see where things would have gone if we had TOEI-exclusive projects going forward though.

Watanabe’s concept for the movie doesn’t sound like it would’ve lent itself to a full-on revival. Besides, wasn’t the whole reason Kai was made due to Toriyama’s initial refusal to make a new series for Toei?

[VegettoEX]

Watanabe’s concept for the movie doesn’t sound like it would’ve lent itself to a full-on revival.

Impossible to really say one way or the other. It being the first new full-length content and being a theatrical film no doubt would have spurred interest again at the very least.

Besides, wasn’t the whole reason Kai was made due to Toriyama’s initial refusal to make a new series for Toei?

Sure, but that was also years before. As we saw with Battle of Gods, Toriyama was in fact willing to get involved again. Yes, Evolution played a role, but the fact remains that Battle of Gods was already in production without him, so it's clear that he didn't/doesn't have full veto power -- the Kai concession seemed to just be an "out of respect" thing, which even they changed their minds about when they decided to just go ahead and make a new movie.

[MasenkoHA]

Toriyama may have not returned for a lot of the newer material we've seen, but I think Dragon Ball still would have continued.

Yusuke Watanabe began writing the initial draft of Battle of Gods with the caped Super Saiyan God and where the character that became Beerus was an evil lizard that infected his opponents with evil in 2011. The movie we know and love was reworked by Toriyama, but he didn't conceive or initiate production of it, meaning it would have been made, and likely would still have been successful enough to warrant sequels, and possibly a long running series like Super too.

It would have been interesting to see where things would have gone if we had TOEI-exclusive projects going forward though.

Watanabe’s concept for the movie doesn’t sound like it would’ve lent itself to a full-on revival. Besides, wasn’t the whole reason Kai was made due to Toriyama’s initial refusal to make a new series for Toei?

I don't think we would have gone a full on revival via Super if not for Toriyama but a version of Battle of Gods was happening with or without Toriyama getting involved, that crappy Bardock OVA was still gonna happen, Dragon Ball Super Arcade Duel Monsters Yu-gi-oh Heroes probably would have still happened. Kai was already in progress before Evolution came out.


Point is the franchise wouldn't have ended if Evolution had been good.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

the Kai concession seemed to just be an "out of respect" thing, which even they changed their minds about when they decided to just go ahead and make a new movie.

And a Heroes anime was made, granted it was a promo anime that no one takes seriously, but in a roundabout way Bandai still got their wish, that Toriyama rejected in 2009 of that being animated.

[WittyUsername]

I guess I just have my doubts that Watanabe’s version of the movie would’ve lead to more content because it sounded pretty dull. It just seems like it would’ve been more of the same schlock that we already saw from Toei in the 90s.

I always felt that the appeal of the BoG we actually got was that it felt different from the movies that came before, and actually managed to expand the lore of the setting in a way that opened the door for more adventures.

[Hellspawn28]

Dragon Ball's return was inevitable. A big franchise like DB would not stay dead forever without anything new since 1997. Even other big franchises like Fist of the North Star, Devilman, etc got new adaptions and other content after their original run ended.

[DragonBallFoodie]

No, there would have been sequels to DB.

The anime revival would have still occurred, but it may not have been so strong as if Toriyama had come on board and revised Beerus into a capricious cat god.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Whether or not the revival would have been as big as it was is a good question, and it's why I hesitate to say whether or not we would have gotten a new series in addition to the movies (which I am confident would have still happened even after Battle of Gods). It's Dragon Ball, so it would have been likely to do decently regardless of Toriyama's involvement, but there would probably have been a lot more naysayers dismissing new content as "non canon".

I also wonder whether the whole "from series original creator" gimmick would have been a thing in the anime community if Toriyama wasn't credited for things like Battle of Gods, as other series like Yu-Gi-Oh! seemed to adapt it for their original cast reunions (which for Yu-Gi-Oh! was Dark Side of Dimensions).

[Zephyr]

The more I read interviews about the production of Battle of Gods, the more I think I disagree with the common notion that Evolution had a huge influence on Toriyama's involvement with it. I honestly don't think it's super clear what was and wasn't motivated by Evolution's writers ignoring Toriyama's advice.

If I'm reading things right, in the interview where he alludes to Evolution motivating his involvement with Battle of Gods, he seems to suggest specifically that the former motivated the degree of his involvement with the latter, not the involvement wholesale:

Also, at the time of the Hollywood movie, the live-action Dragon Ball, the script had too little of a grasp on the world and its characteristics, and on top of that, it had a conventional content that I couldn’t find interesting, so I cautioned them, and suggested changes; but in spite of that, they seemed to have a strange confidence, and didn’t really listen to me. What came out in the end was a movie I couldn’t really call a Dragon Ball that lived up to my expectations.

That being the case, there were parts where I wanted to show some spine, with a world and story only the creator could draw.

In another interview, he indicates that he was still "giving advice" prior to getting "carried away" and "writing almost everything":

The rough script I read in order to check it over had an interesting-sounding theme of a God of Destruction, but the contents were a little dark, so while I was in the midst of giving advice on how to improve it, I got carried away and ended up writing almost everything. For the character designs, as well, I had an image of them to a certain extent while I was thinking up the contents [of the movie], so I decided that it would be faster to just draw them myself rather than asking for this or that.

What exactly does he mean by "show some spine", with regards to the Battle of Gods production? Is that meant to indicate what he was insistent about them changing, or is it meant to indicate how insistent he was that the changes occur? It's possible that he would have gotten just as "carried away" without the Hollywood stink burning in the back of his mind, but maybe he would have been more willing to budge on things that Watanabe didn't want to change. In such a scenario, though, can we say Watanabe would have even tried to reject Toriyama's changes? I mean maybe, but that's another assumption. If Gohan Beast's design is any indication, then it's possible that they would have accepted Toriyama's changes without question.

Hell, in another interview talking about the Battle of Gods production, he mentions being totally fine with his stuff being changed, and even expecting it:

I had thought that the anime staff would further expand on the script I’d supervised

When coming up with things myself and drawing things myself, nothing will come of it that’s more than what I’d imagined, but if I entrust it to other people, it’s fun how something might come out that’s greater than what I’d imagined. While writing the scenario for the fight scenes, I’d thought about what sort of visuals they might become, but the fight scenes were far more enjoyable than my own imaginings. I’m the type of person who isn’t bothered one bit about other people changing his own work, so it’s better if other people work on it to make it more and more interesting, and in that sense, it would have been fine if the people on the anime staff had changed it even more.

It's clear at the very least that had Evolution not happened, Battle of Gods would not be the film we ended up getting in 2013. But Toriyama would have still been involved and offering input. We don't know to what extent Hollywood ignoring his advice influenced his approach to giving advice to Toei. It was some, at least, but we really can't say much beyond that, and that makes it pretty difficult to speculate on the state of Dragon Ball in the '10's in an Evolution-less world. Either way, I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility that Toriyama would have become increasingly involved in writing films and a new TV anime.

[Hellspawn28]

I'm glad that Toriyama return to the franchise. Given how most DB stuff without him is usually not that great. The original BOG would likely sucked given how most of the original DBZ movies aren't that great.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm glad that Toriyama return to the franchise. Given how most DB stuff without him is usually not that great. The original BOG would likely sucked given how most of the original DBZ movies aren't that great.

Especially since it waas going to be the third damn time Toei did a plague of evil infects the cast plot.

[WittyUsername]

Wasn’t the original concept for Beerus supposed to reveal that he was the one who made the Saiyans evil in the first place?

[MasenkoHA]

Wasn’t the original concept for Beerus supposed to reveal that he was the one who made the Saiyans evil in the first place?

Yes

Was it difficult to create the strongest foe ever in Beerus?
Actually, I had been thinking since before that perhaps the Saiya had had evil planted in their hearts by someone. That was Beerus, God of Destruction, from this [movie]; it was something that I’d been thinking about since way, way back, so I managed it relatively quickly.
He’s not only scary, but a god who also has a screwy side to him.
That was an element created entirely by Toriyama-sensei. I can’t write that. I felt that that kind of character, where you’d be in serious trouble if you came in contact with his wrath, was really like him. I had made Beerus more of a bad guy, and a kind of story where everyone is taken over4 and given an evil heart, but Toriyama-sensei in his way apparently felt that, “It’s after the earthquake, so I want it to be, not a tragic story, but a positive one,” and it came to have its present form.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... e-of-gods/



Pretty much everything was improved by Toriyama coming on board other than 18 and Krillin's wedding as a backdrop being switched out for Bulma's birthday party

[DatHenson]

Are we gonna ignore that "Yo! Goku Son and Friends Return?" came out a year prior to Evolution? And Toriyama was involved?

Heck, they ended up reusing many model sheets there for Super

[Cure Dragon 255]

Whoa I thought Son and and his friends was AFTER Evolution I didnt know that...

[WittyUsername]

Are we gonna ignore that "Yo! Goku Son and Friends Return?" came out a year prior to Evolution? And Toriyama was involved?

Heck, they ended up reusing many model sheets there for Super

That’s true, but the Jump Special was a one-off thing that was made to celebrate Shonen Jump’s 40th anniversary. It’s pretty disposable, and can’t really be credited for reviving interest in Dragon Ball. The only thing it’s remembered for is introducing Vegeta’s brother, and he’s barely appeared in anything since then, including video games.