I'd say they start the fight like Piccolo vs Nappa, roughly on that level, with Gas improving and being somewhere in between Nappa and Goku (first round). Then Bardock grows stronger than Nappa, but still below Goku(no KK)
Still below Nappa's second round, after getting his shit together, vs Goku.
I see Goku taking on Bardock, struggling more than in his first encounter with Nappa, but not as much as after Nappa is told to calm down.
Gas probably beats armored Nappa after unleashing some of his power, maybe fights him decently in his suppressed form, but loses against the more focused Nappa.
That’s an interesting question, because until recently a Saiyan rank had been consistently determined by battlepowerreadings.
Spoiler:
Q7: What’s the pecking order among Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz?
Akira Toriyama: Only Vegeta is royalty, but…
Vegeta is the prince and so he has a higher position due to strength. But Raditz and Nappa have equal status.
Spoiler:
Naho Ooishi: About how high was Bardock’s battle power, ultimately? (In Episode of Bardock) Also, if he hadn’t been defeated by Freeza and had continued his growth, about how strong would he have gotten?
Akira Toriyama: To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.
This rank is determined by an innate latent battle power, but naturally, if their battle power rises greatly afterward, they can be promoted.
Spoiler:
Q: Do all Saiyans become combatants?
Akira Toriyama: A baby’s battle power is measured as soon as they are born. If their numbers pass a certain standard, then they are considered upper-level warriors and immediately raised as combatant candidates. On the other hand, those whose numbers remain low even after a certain amount of time has passed are regarded as lower-level warriors, and become either engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies”. If they grow strong enough to conquer that planet, then they can return to their home world as a combatant. However, infiltration babies do not have a high survival rate. Raditz was an upper-level warrior and assigned to the same group as Nappa as a proper combatant. Before long Vegeta was added to that group, too.
It’s noteworthy that Toriyama apparently gives three different perspectives about warrior class/level/pecking order. One with 3 different classes (low, mid and elite), other with 2 different levels (lower and upper, no mid range between) and other separating royalty from ordinary.
I think the most difficult Saiyan to classify here may perhaps be Raditz. Toriyama has him as an upper-level warrior as a kid, despite Daizenshuu books labeling him as a low class Saiyan. I’ve seen a lot of comments on this most recent tidbit being a possible retcon, but I personally don’t see those pieces of information necessarily contradictory.
When the Saiyan is born, there comes the first filter to decide which path they will go. When the Saiyan has the minimal battle power to be considered a combatant in potential, he is immediately selected as an upper-level warrior, and those who don’t are assigned to different careers, as Gine and Goku, for example. Raditz at a point cut to be an upper-level, but even among those combatants there are different classes, and this is where we have the second filter. Raditz and Bardock at low-class (Raditz in the lower end and Bardock in the upper end, presumably because he is always on front lines), Nappa at mid-class, and the royalty/elites King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta.
So, what is the veredict? Bardock’s battle power probably starts at somewhere between 1,600~4,000. Let’s say 3,500. Gas could be as strong as Nappa in his initial level (4,000) and gradually upgrade to something like 5,000 and 6,000. Awakened Bardock would then cap at 7,000 or anything close to it.
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:28 am
Hard to say. The boost in the anime seemed monstrous and I would agree that by virtue of being above KKx20 and Goku's Genkidama, that a 50x multiplier at the very least seems appropriate all things considered. I always attributed UI Omen Goku's growth in power as a result of Goku's own power increasing during his battle with Caulifa. However, he did maintain UI Omen longer against Kefla than he did against Jiren so it's possible that the transformation itself powered up due to his greater control over it.
For me it’s like the opposite. It’s definitely a big deal the first time, but by the second time it barely covers the gap between Kefla’s SSJ1 and 2. Vegeta also maintains Jiren has the strongest Ki he ever felt a few episodes later, so 2nd UI Sign Goku doesn’t seem to be as far above 1st UI Sign Goku as SSJB Goku Vs Kefla is above SSJB Goku vs Jiren.
And then there’s third UI where the boost is big again. I have no idea if SSJB Goku powered up after fighting Kefla, but 3rd UI Sign is definitely >> 2nd UI Sign.
By the way, how strong you think SSJBE Vegeta/KKx20 SSJB Goku are compared to Kefla?
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:27 am
By the 3rd Sign, I'd say Goku became more than 50x stronger than in SSB. One could say it's 25x stronger with each usage, but that might be a lot, so, 50>> 60>>> 75 could work as well.
UI should be twice whatever Sign provides, being the missing offensive portion of the technique and all.
I don't think that would apply for the manga, where we don't even know how much stronger than SSB, Sign is. If Goku's Blue Kaioken only doubled SSB, and SSBE is above even that (3x SSB?), then Sign could be 5 or 10x SSB. I'm inclined to say 10x rather than 5x, seeing how Jiren effortlessly took out SSBE Vegeta, yet needed to fully power up to face Goku.
The good thing is UI doesn't have to be twice Sign like in the anime, because it's a whole new other level, as shown against Moro. Sign couldn't even touch Moro73 and UI was breaking his wrist with his chest while tweeting. I have no idea how much of a boost it is -the completed technique- on top of Sign.
Don't know how much stronger than SSB UI currently is, either.
I think it could easily surpass even 50x KKx20 SSJB. Keep in mind Jiren showed the strongest power they ever felt when he pushed the Genki-Dama, and UIO Goku matched him. Goku got so strong he surpassed even Merged Zamasu and Vegetto Blue. See right above for why it looks smaller and then bigger again though.
In the manga MUI seems to be at least 4-5x Sign since Goku tanks Moro who tanked Vegeta, and I see no discrepancy with the form having a fixed multipler.
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:27 pm
That’s an interesting question, because until recently a Saiyan rank had been consistently determined by battlepowerreadings.
Spoiler:
Q7: What’s the pecking order among Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz?
Akira Toriyama: Only Vegeta is royalty, but…
Vegeta is the prince and so he has a higher position due to strength. But Raditz and Nappa have equal status.
Spoiler:
Naho Ooishi: About how high was Bardock’s battle power, ultimately? (In Episode of Bardock) Also, if he hadn’t been defeated by Freeza and had continued his growth, about how strong would he have gotten?
Akira Toriyama: To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.
This rank is determined by an innate latent battle power, but naturally, if their battle power rises greatly afterward, they can be promoted.
Spoiler:
Q: Do all Saiyans become combatants?
Akira Toriyama: A baby’s battle power is measured as soon as they are born. If their numbers pass a certain standard, then they are considered upper-level warriors and immediately raised as combatant candidates. On the other hand, those whose numbers remain low even after a certain amount of time has passed are regarded as lower-level warriors, and become either engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies”. If they grow strong enough to conquer that planet, then they can return to their home world as a combatant. However, infiltration babies do not have a high survival rate. Raditz was an upper-level warrior and assigned to the same group as Nappa as a proper combatant. Before long Vegeta was added to that group, too.
It’s noteworthy that Toriyama apparently gives three different perspectives about warrior class/level/pecking order. One with 3 different classes (low, mid and elite), other with 2 different levels (lower and upper, no mid range between) and other separating royalty from ordinary.
I think the most difficult Saiyan to classify here may perhaps be Raditz. Toriyama has him as an upper-level warrior as a kid, despite Daizenshuu books labeling him as a low class Saiyan. I’ve seen a lot of comments on this most recent tidbit being a possible retcon, but I personally don’t see those pieces of information necessarily contradictory.
When the Saiyan is born, there comes the first filter to decide which path they will go. When the Saiyan has the minimal battle power to be considered a combatant in potential, he is immediately selected as an upper-level warrior, and those who don’t are assigned to different careers, as Gine and Goku, for example. Raditz at a point cut to be an upper-level, but even among those combatants there are different classes, and this is where we have the second filter. Raditz and Bardock at low-class (Raditz in the lower end and Bardock in the upper end, presumably because he is always on front lines), Nappa at mid-class, and the royalty/elites King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta.
So, what is the veredict? Bardock’s battle power probably starts at somewhere between 1,600~4,000. Let’s say 3,500. Gas could be as strong as Nappa in his initial level (4,000) and gradually upgrade to something like 5,000 and 6,000. Awakened Bardock would then cap at 7,000 or anything close to it.
I always thought Raditz was born a fairly gifted kid, but never lived to his elite potential and remained one in title only. Much like your take, only Nappa and Raditz might have been in the same tier as Toriyama says. They were in the same mission with Vegeta when Planet Vegeta was destroyed, after all. The difference between them is that Nappa lived to his potential and is nobility, as he says as much when fighting Goku.
I think Vegeta’s class can be ignored sometimes since it’s a class of his own for him and his dad, so technically we end up with just low class and upper class for most Saiyans. It’s mostly just semantics.
So for how this works:
Lowest class Saiyans are just barely better than most of Freeza’s goons. Far above 1,000 but still below 3,000, with some guys like Bardock barely going past that. Middle/upper non royal class is 4,000 up to whatever the strongest Saiyan after Vegeta was.
Bardock is probably around 3,500. The Heeters are above that, but I don’t think even Monster Gas breaks the 5-digits mark since Bardock didn’t get pulverized. Granted neither was Monaito, but Gas was still fairly unimpressive the whole fight.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
I doubt the "upper-level" rating mentioned for li'l Raditz is meant to indicate he was ever more than a low-class Saiyan. That whole paragraph is about how a Saiyans' path in life was steered by the promise they showed as babies, not about how strong Raditz or anyone else eventually became as an adult. This is something that I've seen repeatedly come up elsewhere, often leading people to jump to conclusions and assume Raditz was mid-class and stronger than Bardock, when nothing actually says so.
The way I put it all together, more or less like Hugo Boss said... is that Raditz was born with a fairly high power reading, enough to get him fast-tracked into a combat role as a kid instead of becoming an infiltration baby like li'l Kakarrot. But he ultimately squandered that potential, letting his stronger teammates carry him and avoiding tougher fights, so he remained a relatively weak low-class as he grew up.
As for the "pecking order" Q&A quote, that doesn't even mention the commonly-used low/mid/elite ranking, and only seems to talk about their group dynamic. Nappa technically outranking Raditz wouldn't really matter when they both just take orders directly from Vegeta anyway. If it were a somewhat larger group with several more low-classes alongside Raditz, then things might have been different.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:37 pm
For me it’s like the opposite. It’s definitely a big deal the first time, but by the second time it barely covers the gap between Kefla’s SSJ1 and 2. Vegeta also maintains Jiren has the strongest Ki he ever felt a few episodes later, so 2nd UI Sign Goku doesn’t seem to be as far above 1st UI Sign Goku as SSJB Goku Vs Kefla is above SSJB Goku vs Jiren.
And then there’s third UI where the boost is big again. I have no idea if SSJB Goku powered up after fighting Kefla, but 3rd UI Sign is definitely >> 2nd UI Sign.
By the way, how strong you think SSJBE Vegeta/KKx20 SSJB Goku are compared to Kefla?
I would have to refer back to UI Goku's final battle with Jiren because I can't recall what the boost may have been. Did Jiren ever power up against in response to UI Omen Goku?
Aside from that, I think the 1st and 2nd showcases of UI Omen are consistent. Goku's first battle with Jiren was a clear nod back to Goku's battle with Frieza, where Kaioken x20 was proven to be useless which led to the imminent Genkidama which was also proven to be useless. The Genkidama against Frieza was certainly greater than Kaioken x20 and Super Saiyan proved to be far greater than that. I would argue that because of that, a 50x boost off of Super Saiyan Blue for UI Omen in the anime seems fairly reasonable.
This pertains to the battle with Kefla where SSJ Kefla and SSJB Kaiokenx20 Goku were relatively on par with one another. Then Kefla goes Super Saiyan 2 which is often seen as a 2x boost. So far, SSJ2 Kefla is 40x above SSJB Goku. If UI Omen Goku has a slight advantage on Kefla, then UI Omen Goku being 50x SSJB Goku vs. SSJ2 Kefla who is 40x stronger than SSJB Goku could certainly work.
The only wrench in this idea is SSJ2 Kefla being compared to UI Omen Goku (110) even though Goku's power at least grew many times stronger during his battle with Caulifa. Though, this can be accounted for by Kefla's power growing drastically in response to Goku's.
When SSJBE Vegeta and KKx20 SSJB Goku battle Jiren, they are much stronger than Kefla. Jiren (122) was confirmed to be the strongest power ever encountered which means that Jiren (122) is stronger than UI Omen Goku (116). Both SSJB Vegeta and SSJB Goku forced him to use even more power which places them beyond UI Omen Goku (116). Simply ridiculous but I feel that's the implication that is given.
The way their fight plays out and considering the comments from Piccolo and Vados, it seemed SS2 Kefla had a slight power advantage over Goku when he was using the Ultra Instinct Sign form, but Goku was compensating with better reaction speed. That said, Kefla is definitely on Goku’s level there.
About the implication that Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms forced Jiren to use more of his real power, I think the context gives away that they weren’t purely building strength up to accomplish that, but changing their approach from ki blasts and punch punch to strategy, which incited Jiren to increase his power to keep his advantage. But if we were to compare their power only, I would say Vegeta’s super charged final flash could possibly beat SS2 Kefla.
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:52 am
I would have to refer back to UI Goku's final battle with Jiren because I can't recall what the boost may have been. Did Jiren ever power up against in response to UI Omen Goku?
Aside from that, I think the 1st and 2nd showcases of UI Omen are consistent. Goku's first battle with Jiren was a clear nod back to Goku's battle with Frieza, where Kaioken x20 was proven to be useless which led to the imminent Genkidama which was also proven to be useless. The Genkidama against Frieza was certainly greater than Kaioken x20 and Super Saiyan proved to be far greater than that. I would argue that because of that, a 50x boost off of Super Saiyan Blue for UI Omen in the anime seems fairly reasonable.
This pertains to the battle with Kefla where SSJ Kefla and SSJB Kaiokenx20 Goku were relatively on par with one another. Then Kefla goes Super Saiyan 2 which is often seen as a 2x boost. So far, SSJ2 Kefla is 40x above SSJB Goku. If UI Omen Goku has a slight advantage on Kefla, then UI Omen Goku being 50x SSJB Goku vs. SSJ2 Kefla who is 40x stronger than SSJB Goku could certainly work.
The only wrench in this idea is SSJ2 Kefla being compared to UI Omen Goku (110) even though Goku's power at least grew many times stronger during his battle with Caulifa. Though, this can be accounted for by Kefla's power growing drastically in response to Goku's.
When SSJBE Vegeta and KKx20 SSJB Goku battle Jiren, they are much stronger than Kefla. Jiren (122) was confirmed to be the strongest power ever encountered which means that Jiren (122) is stronger than UI Omen Goku (116). Both SSJB Vegeta and SSJB Goku forced him to use even more power which places them beyond UI Omen Goku (116). Simply ridiculous but I feel that's the implication that is given.
There’s two elephants in the room that are Vegetto and Merged Zamasu though. Suppressed Jiren was already stronger than them. That means UI Sign isn’t just comparable to Super Saiyan, but stronger than even SSJB fusion. That’s massive.
I’m not sure if I’d say Goku grew “at least many times stronger” fighting Caulifla. Even adding how much his power raised against both girls and Kefla it was an unquantifiable amount. He might just be twice as strong by this point.
Teamwork is pretty hard to quantify though. Fighting together doesn’t seem to just be the sum of two power levels.
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:20 am
The way their fight plays out and considering the comments from Piccolo and Vados, it seemed SS2 Kefla had a slight power advantage over Goku when he was using the Ultra Instinct Sign form, but Goku was compensating with better reaction speed. That said, Kefla is definitely on Goku’s level there.
About the implication that Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms forced Jiren to use more of his real power, I think the context gives away that they weren’t purely building strength up to accomplish that, but changing their approach from ki blasts and punch punch to strategy, which incited Jiren to increase his power to keep his advantage. But if we were to compare their power only, I would say Vegeta’s super charged final flash could possibly beat SS2 Kefla.
I agree. I think Goku surpassed Kefla in the end though, or at least the power of his Kamehameha did. Even if the ring out was because Kefla was caught wide open, Kefla was hit so hard she defused. The anime seems to imply it’s because the Potara were broken (it zooms in on that), but we know that’s not the case.
Really? I mean they were already trying strategies on their own, specially Goku with the nigh ring out and the minefield, but when they teamed up it was just a barrage of the punches. I think Kuririn or someone else in the peanut gallery did point out how in sync they were fighting now though.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:41 pm
I mean they were already trying strategies on their own, specially Goku with the nigh ring out and the minefield, but when they teamed up it was just a barrage of the punches. I think Kuririn or someone else in the peanut gallery did point out how in sync they were fighting now though.
I forgot to mention I was talking about only on their respective individual matches against Jiren with default Super Saiyan Blue. If we take into account when they team up, I think they are definitely above Kefla, though I’m not sure if they are individually so far off from her (with kaioken and blue evolution). I would say, maybe they are more or less on the same vicinity, with Toppo using the power of destruction having +1, Vegeta’s pride boost +2 and Goku’s last round at Ultra Instinct Sign +3.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:41 pm
There’s two elephants in the room that are Vegetto and Merged Zamasu though. Suppressed Jiren was already stronger than them. That means UI Sign isn’t just comparable to Super Saiyan, but stronger than even SSJB fusion. That’s massive.
I’m not sure if I’d say Goku grew “at least many times stronger” fighting Caulifla. Even adding how much his power raised against both girls and Kefla it was an unquantifiable amount. He might just be twice as strong by this point.
Teamwork is pretty hard to quantify though. Fighting together doesn’t seem to just be the sum of two power levels.
This would be a point against UI Omen Goku surpassing Merged Zamasu rather than for it considering I feel as though Goku's battle with Jiren is a clear nod back to his battle with Frieza. Aside from that, everyone in the audience including Whis and Anato believe that they sensed a greater power than Jiren. It was from that deduction that Whis labeled Jiren as being stronger than Belmod. Therefore, the assessment likely came from everyone extrapolating his power based on what they saw i.e how easily Jiren was pushing back Goku's Genkidama with just a glare rather than what was shown. That's no different than Goku making the deduction that Beerus was stronger than fusion based on how easily he ragdolled him.
Looking back, you could be right. By my assessment, Goku couldn't have grown many times stronger given that KKx20 SSJB Goku is comparable to his Genkidama, which is below double Goku's KKx20 power. Berserker Kale would have to be very close to SSJG Goku when she was thrashing Suppressed SSJB Goku and that likely doesn't seem to be the case. I might have to reconsider this assessment in the future.
Last edited by Goku9001 on Sun May 01, 2022 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:20 am
The way their fight plays out and considering the comments from Piccolo and Vados, it seemed SS2 Kefla had a slight power advantage over Goku when he was using the Ultra Instinct Sign form, but Goku was compensating with better reaction speed. That said, Kefla is definitely on Goku’s level there.
About the implication that Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms forced Jiren to use more of his real power, I think the context gives away that they weren’t purely building strength up to accomplish that, but changing their approach from ki blasts and punch punch to strategy, which incited Jiren to increase his power to keep his advantage. But if we were to compare their power only, I would say Vegeta’s super charged final flash could possibly beat SS2 Kefla.
I would say in the case of Vegeta, he definitely was. Belmod makes a case for Vegeta's power growing even stronger which culminated in the Final Flash. Of course, SSJB Goku's advantage on the battlefield was primarily a strategic one but it's still worth considering given how he fares against Jiren (122) and eventually the stronger Jiren (124) compared to how he performed against Jiren at the start of the tournament. But whether that means he would beat out Kefla is anyone's guess. It seems odd that Goku and Vegeta's power would just skyrocket here given that Goku's growth against Caulifa seemed pretty gradual in comparison.
Goku9001 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 1:26 am
This would be a point against UI Omen Goku surpassing Merged Zamasu rather than for it considering I feel as though Goku's battle with Jiren is a clear nod back to his battle with Frieza. Aside from that, everyone in the audience including Whis and Anato believe that they sensed a greater power than Jiren. It was from that deduction that Whis labeled Jiren as being stronger than Belmod. Therefore, the assessment likely came from everyone extrapolating his power based on what they saw i.e how easily Jiren was pushing back Goku's Genkidama with just a glare rather than what was shown. That's no different than Goku making the deduction that Beerus was stronger than fusion based on how easily he ragdolled him.
Looking back, you could be right. By my assessment, Goku couldn't have grown many times stronger given that KKx20 SSJB Goku is comparable to his Genkidama, which is below double Goku's KKx20 power. Berserker Kale would have to be very close to SSJG Goku when she was thrashing Suppressed SSJB Goku and that likely doesn't seem to be the case. I might have to reconsider this assessment in the future.
Not sure about that. Kaioshin is talking about the power he's sensing currently and how he has never felt anything like it before. Whis then comes in and deduces he's the mortal stronger than a Hakaishin since his power is entering Hakaishin level already. They're estimating Jiren's power based on his suppressed one, which is already leaps and bounds anything they've sensed before.
Episode: 110
Time: 04:58-05:36
Context: The U7 Gods thinks that Goku has reach his limit and amazed by Jiren's power
Whis: "It appears he's at the limit of his limit. Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."
Supreme Kai: "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay... like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumor is true."
Vegetto nor Zamasu ever get compared to Hakaiahins or draw such a reaction from Beerus and Whis (The former didn't even care about Zamasu but was sweating bullets at Jiren's power). The explanation you gave clarifies how Jiren compares to Belmond, but it doesn't say much if anything about how he compares to Vegetto and Zamasu.
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:20 pm
I forgot to mention I was talking about only on their respective individual matches against Jiren with default Super Saiyan Blue. If we take into account when they team up, I think they are definitely above Kefla, though I’m not sure if they are individually so far off from her (with kaioken and blue evolution). I would say, maybe they are more or less on the same vicinity, with Toppo using the power of destruction having +1, Vegeta’s pride boost +2 and Goku’s last round at Ultra Instinct Sign +3.
You know, I've been rewatching those fights and it's kinda weird how even in their 1v1 match Goku could keep up with Jiren in a direct combat. They throw hands for a bit before Vegeta interrupts them, which isn't much of a feat (KKx20 Goku was doing the same in their first fight), but still pretty impressive since he's no longer using Kaio-Ken. After Vegeta is out Goku does avoid fighting Jiren directly and tries his strategies, they fail and he gets curbstomped when Jiren gets his hands on him. Then Jiren powers up and they seem to be clashing evenly, until Jiren throws a super punch that knocks Goku out of Blue without even touching him.
I always thought it was heavily suggested Jiren had some Ki control issues since he spends most of the tournament meditating, and gasses out pretty badly after fighting UI Goku. Seeing these fights it's possible he needs to warm up before using his power, which could explain why he's swapping hands with Goku in one minute and one shotting him in the next.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:36 pm
Vegetto nor Zamasu ever get compared to Hakaiahins or draw such a reaction from Beerus and Whis (The former didn't even care about Zamasu but was sweating bullets at Jiren's power). The explanation you gave clarifies how Jiren compares to Belmond, but it doesn't say much if anything about how he compares to Vegetto and Zamasu.
Beerus and Whis never felt Vegetto or Fused Zamasu though.
They did feel Infinite Zamasu and were visibly worried. Whis even says he's got a feeling of unease that made his skin tingle which was a first in Super and hasn't been repeated since.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:36 pm
Not sure about that. Kaioshin is talking about the power he's sensing currently and how he has never felt anything like it before. Whis then comes in and deduces he's the mortal stronger than a Hakaishin since his power is entering Hakaishin level already. They're estimating Jiren's power based on his suppressed one, which is already leaps and bounds anything they've sensed before.
Episode: 110
Time: 04:58-05:36
Context: The U7 Gods thinks that Goku has reach his limit and amazed by Jiren's power
Whis: "It appears he's at the limit of his limit. Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power."
Supreme Kai: "This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay... like a God of Destruction. He is one who has reached that state. Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumor is true."
Vegetto nor Zamasu ever get compared to Hakaiahins or draw such a reaction from Beerus and Whis (The former didn't even care about Zamasu but was sweating bullets at Jiren's power). The explanation you gave clarifies how Jiren compares to Belmond, but it doesn't say much if anything about how he compares to Vegetto and Zamasu.
Likewise, Anato also claimed that he could feel an even greater power from Jiren from what Jiren was giving off. I think it's clear that Kaioshin's statement is meant to be taken in conjunction with everyone else's. The writers wanted to make it clear that Jiren is the strongest threat they had ever encountered precisely because Jiren was concealing vast reservoir of power that no one was aware of. Beerus doesn't even doubt Whis' statement when Whis claims that Jiren "appears to be far from full strength" and because of that, Whis slowly begins to realize that Jiren may be the mortal who surpassed his own GoD.
Everything points towards Jiren being the strongest threat because of the unknown power he possess. I don't recall Whis and Beerus ever being concerned of Merged Zamasu but they have the right to be concerned about Jiren given that Beerus' own existence as well as their own universe would be doomed if Jiren wins. And that would also poorly reflect on Whis.
But assuming this was the case, do you honestly think Jiren needs power beyond Vegetto Blue to push back Kaioken x20 SSJB Goku's Genkidama? There's no way Goku would be capable of exhibiting power anywhere close to Vegetto Blue.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:19 pm
Who is higher up the !added Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta from Broly or Ultra Instinct Goku from the ToP?
Definitely Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta. FPSSJ Broly is stronger than Jiren and Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta was decisively above FPSSJ Broly. In contrast, MUI Goku seemed inferior to Jiren in the manga once he broke his limits and only held on due to his heightened speed and agility. Gogeta should be stronger and MUI Goku would exhaust himself too quickly trying to force his body to keep up with Gogeta's speed.
Well I ask because some comment came out somewhere recently that if Broly could just remain calm and in control then he could probably have beaten Gogeta.
So if a calm and collected Broly could overcome Gogeta then what about Jiren and Goku?
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:36 pm
Vegetto nor Zamasu ever get compared to Hakaiahins or draw such a reaction from Beerus and Whis (The former didn't even care about Zamasu but was sweating bullets at Jiren's power). The explanation you gave clarifies how Jiren compares to Belmond, but it doesn't say much if anything about how he compares to Vegetto and Zamasu.
Beerus literally said that he only cared about Zamasu as far as his timeline was concerned. When Present Zamasu was destroyed and the timeline was safe from him, Beerus literally said that his job was done and that the Zamasu of other timelines did not concern him. Why would he comment or care about Fused Zamasu, who wasn't in the Present timeline in the first place? Unlike Fused Zamasu, who did not threaten the Present timeline at the time, Jiren directly threatened Beerus and his universe.
You're comparing Beerus commenting about a dude who is literally powering up in front of him to Beerus ignoring someone who is in another timeline entirely. False equivalency.
Besides, when Zamasu became Infinite and took over the Future, Beerus and Whis did notice him. Beerus explicitly noted that what Zamasu did was having repercussions on other timelines and he was visibly worried, while Whis said that he was getting an uneasy feeling from Infinite Zamasu's energy.
If anything, it should be noted that Whis mentioned the above about Zamasu, while he never got any uneasy feeling from Jiren. The mere sensation of Infinite Zamasu's energy made Whis' skin tingle in frustration, whereas Jiren's energy never produced such an effect on him.
Anyway, you are also wrong when you say that Zamasu was never compared to a Hakaishin. Because Shin and Gowasu said that the mere existence of Fused Zamasu was beyond their comprehension (they would know about the Destroyers and what they're capable of, since they're co-workers) and Vegeta said that he never felt anything like Fused Zamasu, he was unlike any mortal or God he ever faced. And he fought with Beerus and sparred with Whis.
So as you can see, there's plenty of material with which to hype Fused Zamasu and Vegito by extension.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with Toyotaro
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:23 am
Well I ask because some comment came out somewhere recently that if Broly could just remain calm and in control then he could probably have beaten Gogeta.
So if a calm and collected Broly could overcome Gogeta then what about Jiren and Goku?
This isn’t implied (in the movie, at least). Gogeta just kept beating Broly even when he was seemingly powering-up, so it seems Broly’s very best wouldn’t be enough.
Jiren and Goku at their maximum level in the anime, I have them more or less on the same vicinity as Broly, with Blue Gogeta a notch above them all.
