How long after his passing will the words "Toriyama wrote/designed/contributed" stop being believable?

[The Dark Knight]

If Super and Daima have proved us anything, is that Toriyama sucks as a writer and his editors back in the 80s/90s did a lot of heavy lifting for him. I couldn't really care about how much influence he has on something, because his unfiltered stories (the Super movies, Daima) are very hit or miss leaning heavily on miss. Just ask yourselves who wrote the trainwreck called RoF.

That's not what was happening back then at all; not even close. Toriyama's editors were just that, editors; they made suggestions and required changes, but it was still Toriyama doing the heavy lifting of writing and drawing 14 pages of manga each week. With that said, a good editor is important to have in order to bounce ideas with, have a second critical eye to look at your work, and to push you forward when you think you can't go any further. The anime's staff also regularly made changes where they felt Toriyama came up short, and considering most of us were introduced to the franchise through the anime, I think that's an important aspect to consider. Another thing to consider is that back in the day, Toriyama was just another writer, he wasn't above having his work criticized and his ideas rejected; during the modern run of the franchise however, he was "sensei", so no one would ever think that his work was anything less than perfect.

I couldn't really care about how much influence he has on something, because his unfiltered stories (the Super movies, Daima) are very hit or miss leaning heavily on miss. Just ask yourselves who wrote the trainwreck called RoF.

The shortest arc in the original manga, the 22nd Tenkaichi, comes in at a little over 300 pages long (22 chapters × 14 pages), fully written and drawn by Toriyama; how many pages do you think the Champa arc was for example ? You could probably get that entire arc into one page, and that's being generous. As taikufuru said, Toriyama's involvement with this revival was heavily overstated for marketing purposes. Besides seeing the differences in front of our eyes, Toriyama himself said many times that his involvement was limited; opting to give the staff more creative freedom with the work instead. If anything, it's the fans that have overblown his involvement because many of them can't bring themselves to like something they don't believe was fully written by him. Super as we know it today would've crashed and burned had Toriyama's name not been attached to it, even if it was the exact same product; GT would be viewed as the Citizen Kane of anime had the staff been smart enough to market it as a Toriyama product.

[SupremeKai25]

It is very dishonest of you to try to make it look like I advocated for disregarding the original author's influence on Dragon Ball Super. That is not what I said.

You said they are "vague drafts." I disagree.

But let's look at the interviews with Toriyama himself. Not editors or third parties, Toriyama himself. Thankfully the website of Kanzenshuu has all these interviews translated and archived.

For example this interview from early 2016, when the Universe 6 Saga was wrapping up, but we still didn't know about the Future Trunks saga: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... b-version/

Key points:

Toyotarō:
Since Chapter 1 I’ve used Toriyama-sensei‘s plot as a basis, but have been allowed to expand on it.

The term "plot" is used to describe Toriyama's contribution to Super.

Toyotaro then proceeds to say that he was allowed by Toriyama to expand his plot. And that's totally fine! And I repeat, no one ever said -ONLY- Toriyama made the plot of Super. Of course Toyotaro and Toei expanded the plot to flesh out a fully-fledged anime or manga, but Toriyma still made the plot, that is a fact.

Toriyama:
In Battle of Gods it was red, so I figured for Revival of “F” I should go with blue. That’s all (laughs). Well, actually I was thinking about having it be white, but then it would color-clash with the “next enemy”… so I figured I should save it for another occasion (laughs).

Toriyama directly created Super Saiyan Blue, which became the most important form in Super. On top of this he created Zamasu, this interview was from before the Future Trunks saga and the "white-haired enemy" he refers to is Zamasu, so the first original villain from Super was directly created by Toriyama. This matches the interview reported in my signature (also on the Kanzenshuu website) where Toriyama says he made the story of the Future Trunks saga.

Toriyama:
If it hadn’t been for those two, making any more story after that would have been a nightmare. There wouldn’t have been anything to expand upon. That’s why I’m so glad to have them around. And their voices are good, too! Those voice artists are so talented!

Toriyama once again reiterates that he is making the story of Super. He kept Beerus and Whis around because they are fun and interesting characters who help HIM (Toriyama) to expand the story of SUPER.

He also directly credited the wonderful voice actors of Super (rightfully so), which means that he does acknowledge some of the things the anime does right, for example the voice actors who, with their wonderful voices, flesh out Toriyama's characters.

Toyotarō:
I’ve read the plot for the new story, and I’m really happy a certain future-related character is going to be involved. I’m a huge fan!
Toriyama:
That’s a pretty popular character! Hopefully the kids will be happy.

Once again the term "plot" is used to describe Toriyama's work.

Finally, they say

So far Dragon Ball Super has followed Toriyama-sensei‘s plot, but I think it might be interesting for Toyotarō-sensei to become more involved with the story-writing process from here on out!
Toriyama:
Good idea!! I bet it’ll make it more interesting to include Toyotarō-sensei‘s original ideas.
Toyotarō:
T-That’s so much pressure… (sweat). But I think it’ll be really cool to help Dragon Ball someday reach its final chapter.
Toriyama:
Oh, that’s good! People will go “Wow, Toriyama-sensei planned it all out from the beginning!” and I’ll look really cool (laughs).

And that's also totally fine. You can see that Toyotaro quite clearly became more involved with the writing of the Moro saga and the Granolah saga. Does that mean Toriyama was no longer writing the story? No, it doesn't, it just means Toyotaro was more involved. Toyotaro writing most of the story for Moro and Toriyama writing the story of the manga are not mutually exclusive.

This other interview, from late 2016 when the Future Trunks saga was unfolding: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... r-anatomy/

What’s your process working with Toriyama-sensei?!
I draw a rough draft based on Toriyama-sensei‘s original story, then I send it to my editor, who gets sensei to check it. It’s an honor to be able to give concrete form to sensei‘s ideas, but sometimes sensei will send over a part he drew himself, which sends me into an uproar, going back and forth between being all hyped up and feeling really down in the dumps.

The term "rough draft" is used for TOYOTARO'S INITIAL WORK, NOT for Toriyma's work. Toyotaro directly says that his initial draft is based on Toriyama's original "STORY". So the term "STORY" is used to describe Toriyama's work for the Future Trunks saga. Toriyama makes the story in conceptual form, and Toyotaro draws his ideas and expands upon them. Toyotaro's editor also provides Toyotaro's draft work to Toriyama every month so that Toriyama can check it. So everything in the manga was fact-checked and approved by Toriyama himself. This is, in essence, Toriyama's story, drawn by Toyotaro. Which is how the credits for the manga have always been written.

And yes, Toyotaro and Toei expand concepts and ideas, but the original story still comes from Toriyama. And yes, Toriyama had a bigger input on the manga. He was critical of the Anime scripts multiple times. Toei has always been hit or miss, they know how to make cool stuff and cool fights, but they often sacrifice character integrity for cool moments. We know very well that Toriyama's original Goku differs from the anime adaptation and unfortunately, because of Toei, lots of people think Goku is supposed to be some Captain America-style hero of justice. This is nothing new.

What will happen in the rest of the “Future Trunks arc” and afterwards?!
The rest of the “Future Trunks arc” will take a slightly different approach with how things play out, compared to the TV anime. And after that…? “That promise” everyone is waiting for will be fulfilled! But you know Toriyama-sensei! Things won’t go as you expect! Look forward to it!!

Here Toyotaro is obviously talking about the Tournament of Power saga where Zeno's promise to have a grand tournament between all the universes was fulfilled. "You know Toriyama-sensei" means Toriyama once again made the story.

Then there's also the interview about the Future Trunks saga, whose snippet is on my signature:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... alk-vol-2/

Toyotaro talks about Toriyama's "original draft". He claims there was a lot of tension in the draft and it made for a story full of tension.

Toyotarō:
I was shocked when I first read your original draft. I had thought of gods as being absolutely good, so having one of them turn evil raised the tension. The sense of tension flowing from the story from that point onward was incredible. I think it’s tough to make things tense in a Dragon Ball story. But setting the fight in the alternate “future” where there are no Dragon Balls creates a crazy sense of tension, since obviously nobody can come back to life if they die… And before that, when the story starts you don’t even know the enemy’s true identity. Zamasu’s personality was also something we hadn’t seen before. The villains of Dragon Ball are typically absolutely evil, so there’s nothing wrong with defeating them, but Zamasu was a slightly more complicated case of “warped justice”.

Toriyama then says he created Goku Black, it's his villain.

Toyotarō:
Personally I think I just barely managed to pull it off, but it’s an honor for you to say that (laughs). To change topics, I have a question about the characters of the “Future Trunks arc”. I think the enemies this time around had a huge impact. With Goku Black in particular, how did you come up with the idea for him?
Toriyama:
It was something I wanted to try out just once. Something like “False Ultraman” or “False Kamen Rider”…

And another bit I like is when they acknowledge the voice acting in the anime, once again:

Toyotarō:
It fits amazingly well! Of course, Goku Black was voiced by Masako Nozawa-san, but she speaks so politely… I suppose that comes from Zamasu? I hear the editorial office received fan letters from women saying how sexy that performance was (laughs)

And I love this, because it shows that most of the "Anime vs. Manga" vitriol is just fandom toxicity. Did Toriyama dislike the anime scripts? Sure, but that doesn't mean they hated the anime. That's now the second time they've praised the anime voice acting, deservingly so! The Super Anime might have inconsistent characterization and sloppy writing (the same argument can be made for the Z anime, btw), but the voice acting is amazing. The voice actors for Black and Zamasu were awesome and it's good that Toriyama, Toyotaro, and the editorial team acknowledged them.

Lastly:

Toyotarō:
That’s right. Ultimately things need to head towards the conclusion indicated by Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft, but during that process I want to give various characters things to do. Vegeta being stubborn shows off the appeal of his character, and makes the story more exciting. And of course I want to make Trunks look cool, and even Gowasu… basically I want each character to get the chance to shine. At times like that I depart slightly from the script, but I guess you could say I’m faithful to its essence.

Here's the term SCRIPT being used. You said:

they would be scripts, not drafts

Here Toyotaro directly says that Toriyama gives him a "script". It's also an "original draft", and at the same time it's a "script", and the script/draft apparently flowed like a story full of tension that filled Toyotaro with ideas.

And then of course Toyotaro says that he fleshed out Toriyama's story with twists and turns, characters and fights, to get to the end point designed by Toriyama. That's fine, but that doesn't mean it isn't Toriyama's story. It just means it's a joint effort between the storyteller Toriyama and the artists Toei and Toyotaro.

And I repeat, nobody ever said that ONLY Toriyama made the story. It's always been a team effort between Toriyama making the story, and Toyotaro and Toei fleshing out the story in the given medium. But let's not dance around the point:

Dragon Ball Super is Toriyama's story, in ways that GT and the videogames are not.

Finally, I will point out that, as far as I can read, the term "ROUGH DRAFT" is used solely and exclusively for TOYOTARO'S DRAFTS. The term "rough draft" is always used for Toyotaro's initial story. When the manga was ongoing, we used to get those rough drafts like one week before the chapter's release, which always made the community very toxic and full of vitriol, because people tried to judge the finished story from rough drafts.

As far as I can tell, Toriyama's contribution is always described as "original drafts". Not vague and not rough.

I think these are the most relevant interviews on the subject. I have looked at the Kanzenshuu website for these translations and I don't find other relevant interviews on the topic. Thankfully there's a lot of filters on the website to find specific interviews, I used the filter to give me only Manga interviews, since I believe the only time Toriyama was directly interviewed for Super was in the release of the manga volumes:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/

So the term "script" is indeed used for Toriyama's work (along with "story", "plot", "original draft"), and also the term "rough" is used in these interviews, but always referring to Toyotaro's initial work, and never to Toriyama.

And it is quite clear that Toriyama was A LOOOOOOOOOOOOT more involved with Super than he was with GT or the videogames.

Did Toriyama create designs, maybe even small storylines for GT and the videogames? Sure. Sporadically. But sure.

But for Super, Toriyama's role was quite clearly superior. He created the overarching narrative, and constantly made new stories. He was the architect of Dragon Ball Super. When the Universe 6 Saga was unfolding, he had already made the story about the "next white-haired villain". When the Future Trunks saga was unfolding, he had already made the story about the "fulfillement of the promise we've all been waiting for" (aka the grand tournament between universes). And throughout it all, he always kept Beerus and Whis around, not only because he liked those characters, but because in HIS STORY they are Goku's endgame benchmark, never to be surpassed until the very end of the story (perhaps).

So of course they will say that Toriyama was the writer of Super. He literally was. And quite clearly he had far more input on Super than any other post-original series except maybe Daima.

[kiarasuraru]

It doesn't take a genius to understand that a TV series isn't built solely from a few character designs and a story summary. A narrative of this scale requires a creative team to develop, expand, and structure it throughout the production process. Akira Toriyama was more involved in Dragon Ball Super than in any of the TV series or films produced in the 1980s and 1990s. Even so, his influence tends to be overstated—partly for marketing reasons and partly due to a need among some fans to attribute virtually everything they consider positive about the work to him. Shueisha, Bandai, Fuji TV, CC Tokyo, and Toei Animation understood that they needed this validation. And that is why I think that, ten years from now, they will be telling us that Toriyama was involved in this as well before he died.

If Super and Daima have proved us anything, is that Toriyama sucks as a writer and his editors back in the 80s/90s did a lot of heavy lifting for him. I couldn't really care about how much influence he has on something, because his unfiltered stories (the Super movies, Daima) are very hit or miss leaning heavily on miss. Just ask yourselves who wrote the trainwreck called RoF.

I think more than Toriyama being a bad writer he was simply well and over and past Dragon Ball. A lethal combination of him not giving a fuck about Dragon Ball anymore and after being brought back to something he'd long since left behind him writing Dragon Ball as the fanfiction he had on his head of what Dragon Ball was when he wrote it rather than what it was in reality and trying to turn it into something it was not anymore. The Dragon Ball in his head and the Dragon Ball the rest of the world saw couldn't have been any more different.
The one and only exception was BoG which was fueled by his butthurt against Evolution but even that flame didn't last long. I mean, you just said so. We got F right afterwards and that's where you can trace from practically everything that's gone wrong with modern Dragon Ball.

[taikufuru]

It is very dishonest of you to try to make it look like I advocated for disregarding the original author's influence on Dragon Ball Super. That is not what I said.

You said they are "vague drafts." I disagree.

But let's look at the interviews with Toriyama himself. Not editors or third parties, Toriyama himself. Thankfully the website of Kanzenshuu has all these interviews translated and archived.

For example this interview from early 2016, when the Universe 6 Saga was wrapping up, but we still didn't know about the Future Trunks saga: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... b-version/

Key points:

Toyotarō:
Since Chapter 1 I’ve used Toriyama-sensei‘s plot as a basis, but have been allowed to expand on it.

The term "plot" is used to describe Toriyama's contribution to Super.

Toyotaro then proceeds to say that he was allowed by Toriyama to expand his plot. And that's totally fine! And I repeat, no one ever said -ONLY- Toriyama made the plot of Super. Of course Toyotaro and Toei expanded the plot to flesh out a fully-fledged anime or manga, but Toriyma still made the plot, that is a fact.

Toriyama:
In Battle of Gods it was red, so I figured for Revival of “F” I should go with blue. That’s all (laughs). Well, actually I was thinking about having it be white, but then it would color-clash with the “next enemy”… so I figured I should save it for another occasion (laughs).

Toriyama directly created Super Saiyan Blue, which became the most important form in Super. On top of this he created Zamasu, this interview was from before the Future Trunks saga and the "white-haired enemy" he refers to is Zamasu, so the first original villain from Super was directly created by Toriyama. This matches the interview reported in my signature (also on the Kanzenshuu website) where Toriyama says he made the story of the Future Trunks saga.

Toriyama:
If it hadn’t been for those two, making any more story after that would have been a nightmare. There wouldn’t have been anything to expand upon. That’s why I’m so glad to have them around. And their voices are good, too! Those voice artists are so talented!

Toriyama once again reiterates that he is making the story of Super. He kept Beerus and Whis around because they are fun and interesting characters who help HIM (Toriyama) to expand the story of SUPER.

He also directly credited the wonderful voice actors of Super (rightfully so), which means that he does acknowledge some of the things the anime does right, for example the voice actors who, with their wonderful voices, flesh out Toriyama's characters.

Toyotarō:
I’ve read the plot for the new story, and I’m really happy a certain future-related character is going to be involved. I’m a huge fan!
Toriyama:
That’s a pretty popular character! Hopefully the kids will be happy.

Once again the term "plot" is used to describe Toriyama's work.

Finally, they say

So far Dragon Ball Super has followed Toriyama-sensei‘s plot, but I think it might be interesting for Toyotarō-sensei to become more involved with the story-writing process from here on out!
Toriyama:
Good idea!! I bet it’ll make it more interesting to include Toyotarō-sensei‘s original ideas.
Toyotarō:
T-That’s so much pressure… (sweat). But I think it’ll be really cool to help Dragon Ball someday reach its final chapter.
Toriyama:
Oh, that’s good! People will go “Wow, Toriyama-sensei planned it all out from the beginning!” and I’ll look really cool (laughs).

And that's also totally fine. You can see that Toyotaro quite clearly became more involved with the writing of the Moro saga and the Granolah saga. Does that mean Toriyama was no longer writing the story? No, it doesn't, it just means Toyotaro was more involved. Toyotaro writing most of the story for Moro and Toriyama writing the story of the manga are not mutually exclusive.

This other interview, from late 2016 when the Future Trunks saga was unfolding: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... r-anatomy/

What’s your process working with Toriyama-sensei?!
I draw a rough draft based on Toriyama-sensei‘s original story, then I send it to my editor, who gets sensei to check it. It’s an honor to be able to give concrete form to sensei‘s ideas, but sometimes sensei will send over a part he drew himself, which sends me into an uproar, going back and forth between being all hyped up and feeling really down in the dumps.

The term "rough draft" is used for TOYOTARO'S INITIAL WORK, NOT for Toriyma's work. Toyotaro directly says that his initial draft is based on Toriyama's original "STORY". So the term "STORY" is used to describe Toriyama's work for the Future Trunks saga. Toriyama makes the story in conceptual form, and Toyotaro draws his ideas and expands upon them. Toyotaro's editor also provides Toyotaro's draft work to Toriyama every month so that Toriyama can check it. So everything in the manga was fact-checked and approved by Toriyama himself. This is, in essence, Toriyama's story, drawn by Toyotaro. Which is how the credits for the manga have always been written.

And yes, Toyotaro and Toei expand concepts and ideas, but the original story still comes from Toriyama. And yes, Toriyama had a bigger input on the manga. He was critical of the Anime scripts multiple times. Toei has always been hit or miss, they know how to make cool stuff and cool fights, but they often sacrifice character integrity for cool moments. We know very well that Toriyama's original Goku differs from the anime adaptation and unfortunately, because of Toei, lots of people think Goku is supposed to be some Captain America-style hero of justice. This is nothing new.

What will happen in the rest of the “Future Trunks arc” and afterwards?!
The rest of the “Future Trunks arc” will take a slightly different approach with how things play out, compared to the TV anime. And after that…? “That promise” everyone is waiting for will be fulfilled! But you know Toriyama-sensei! Things won’t go as you expect! Look forward to it!!

Here Toyotaro is obviously talking about the Tournament of Power saga where Zeno's promise to have a grand tournament between all the universes was fulfilled. "You know Toriyama-sensei" means Toriyama once again made the story.

Then there's also the interview about the Future Trunks saga, whose snippet is on my signature:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... alk-vol-2/

Toyotaro talks about Toriyama's "original draft". He claims there was a lot of tension in the draft and it made for a story full of tension.

Toyotarō:
I was shocked when I first read your original draft. I had thought of gods as being absolutely good, so having one of them turn evil raised the tension. The sense of tension flowing from the story from that point onward was incredible. I think it’s tough to make things tense in a Dragon Ball story. But setting the fight in the alternate “future” where there are no Dragon Balls creates a crazy sense of tension, since obviously nobody can come back to life if they die… And before that, when the story starts you don’t even know the enemy’s true identity. Zamasu’s personality was also something we hadn’t seen before. The villains of Dragon Ball are typically absolutely evil, so there’s nothing wrong with defeating them, but Zamasu was a slightly more complicated case of “warped justice”.

Toriyama then says he created Goku Black, it's his villain.

Toyotarō:
Personally I think I just barely managed to pull it off, but it’s an honor for you to say that (laughs). To change topics, I have a question about the characters of the “Future Trunks arc”. I think the enemies this time around had a huge impact. With Goku Black in particular, how did you come up with the idea for him?
Toriyama:
It was something I wanted to try out just once. Something like “False Ultraman” or “False Kamen Rider”…

And another bit I like is when they acknowledge the voice acting in the anime, once again:

Toyotarō:
It fits amazingly well! Of course, Goku Black was voiced by Masako Nozawa-san, but she speaks so politely… I suppose that comes from Zamasu? I hear the editorial office received fan letters from women saying how sexy that performance was (laughs)

And I love this, because it shows that most of the "Anime vs. Manga" vitriol is just fandom toxicity. Did Toriyama dislike the anime scripts? Sure, but that doesn't mean they hated the anime. That's now the second time they've praised the anime voice acting, deservingly so! The Super Anime might have inconsistent characterization and sloppy writing (the same argument can be made for the Z anime, btw), but the voice acting is amazing. The voice actors for Black and Zamasu were awesome and it's good that Toriyama, Toyotaro, and the editorial team acknowledged them.

Lastly:

Toyotarō:
That’s right. Ultimately things need to head towards the conclusion indicated by Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft, but during that process I want to give various characters things to do. Vegeta being stubborn shows off the appeal of his character, and makes the story more exciting. And of course I want to make Trunks look cool, and even Gowasu… basically I want each character to get the chance to shine. At times like that I depart slightly from the script, but I guess you could say I’m faithful to its essence.

Here's the term SCRIPT being used. You said:

they would be scripts, not drafts

Here Toyotaro directly says that Toriyama gives him a "script". It's also an "original draft", and at the same time it's a "script", and the script/draft apparently flowed like a story full of tension that filled Toyotaro with ideas.

And then of course Toyotaro says that he fleshed out Toriyama's story with twists and turns, characters and fights, to get to the end point designed by Toriyama. That's fine, but that doesn't mean it isn't Toriyama's story. It just means it's a joint effort between the storyteller Toriyama and the artists Toei and Toyotaro.

And I repeat, nobody ever said that ONLY Toriyama made the story. It's always been a team effort between Toriyama making the story, and Toyotaro and Toei fleshing out the story in the given medium. But let's not dance around the point:

Dragon Ball Super is Toriyama's story, in ways that GT and the videogames are not.

Finally, I will point out that, as far as I can read, the term "ROUGH DRAFT" is used solely and exclusively for TOYOTARO'S DRAFTS. The term "rough draft" is always used for Toyotaro's initial story. When the manga was ongoing, we used to get those rough drafts like one week before the chapter's release, which always made the community very toxic and full of vitriol, because people tried to judge the finished story from rough drafts.

As far as I can tell, Toriyama's contribution is always described as "original drafts". Not vague and not rough.

I think these are the most relevant interviews on the subject. I have looked at the Kanzenshuu website for these translations and I don't find other relevant interviews on the topic. Thankfully there's a lot of filters on the website to find specific interviews, I used the filter to give me only Manga interviews, since I believe the only time Toriyama was directly interviewed for Super was in the release of the manga volumes:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/

So the term "script" is indeed used for Toriyama's work (along with "story", "plot", "original draft"), and also the term "rough" is used in these interviews, but always referring to Toyotaro's initial work, and never to Toriyama.

And it is quite clear that Toriyama was A LOOOOOOOOOOOOT more involved with Super than he was with GT or the videogames.

Did Toriyama create designs, maybe even small storylines for GT and the videogames? Sure. Sporadically. But sure.

But for Super, Toriyama's role was quite clearly superior. He created the overarching narrative, and constantly made new stories. He was the architect of Dragon Ball Super. When the Universe 6 Saga was unfolding, he had already made the story about the "next white-haired villain". When the Future Trunks saga was unfolding, he had already made the story about the "fulfillement of the promise we've all been waiting for" (aka the grand tournament between universes). And throughout it all, he always kept Beerus and Whis around, not only because he liked those characters, but because in HIS STORY they are Goku's endgame benchmark, never to be surpassed until the very end of the story (perhaps).

So of course they will say that Toriyama was the writer of Super. He literally was. And quite clearly he had far more input on Super than any other post-original series except maybe Daima.

Why do you argue as if I were denying Toriyama's influence on Dragon Ball Super, when that isn't the case?

1. The creation of Super Saiyan Blue is tied to the movie Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F', which was developed in 2014—even before Dragon Ball Super or Zamasu existed. People misinterpret Toriyama's comment, assuming he had Zamasu in mind.

2. In all the examples you cited, you actually corroborate my point that Akira Toriyama did not write the Dragon Ball Super script. The key terms in your examples are plot and draft, not script.

Furthermore, you are completely mistaken regarding the application of the term "draft". There is Akira Toriyama's draft, which involves the story's premise—the plot. This is what he sends to both the Toei Animation team and Toyotarō. Then there is Toyotarō's rough draft, which consists precisely of the page sketches he draws before they are corrected and approved by Toriyama and Uchida. That is literally in one of the questions from the text you brought.

Toyotarō-sensei, do you add in your own ideas as you turn Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft into a finished manga?

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... alk-vol-2/

Toriyama also commented on how this process works when the Future Trunks arc was announced:

Next up in Dragon Ball Super, adult Trunks will be putting in his first appearance in a long time! I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office. Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot, then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2016/05/09/f ... all-super/

You are also incorrect in stating that Akira Toriyama is the screenwriter for Dragon Ball Super. He is not. If he were, he would receive that credit.

For the TV series, Akira Toriyama is credited as follows:

原作・ストーリー原案・キャラクター原案
Original Author / Story Draft / Character Drafts

The screenwriters are, in fact: Yoshifumi Fukushima, King Ryū, Yoshio Yoshitaka, Makoto Koyama, and Atsuhiro Tomioka.

In the manga, the credits appear as follows:

原作/Original Author
Akira Toriyama

漫画/Manga
Toyotarō

Toriyama is credited as the original author of Dragon Ball, while Toyotarō receives credit for the manga, as he is the one who draws it and writes the dialogue—albeit under Toriyama's supervision.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/super/

Akira Toriyama is a screenwriter for the movies, and that is precisely where his influence is most extensive. This is because he doesn't just write a premise for someone else to turn into a screenplay; he writes the screenplay himself, scene by scene and line by line.

For Battle of Gods, he is credited with the film's story, having developed it jointly with Yusuke Watanabe, the work's co-screenwriter.

原作・ストーリー・キャラクターデザイン
Original Author, Story, & Character Design

For the next three films, Akira Toriyama is credited as follows:

原作・脚本・キャラクターデザイン
Original Author, Script, & Character Design

This is where the credit for the film's screenplay finally appears. Not draft, not plot. Script.

I hope I have clearly highlighted the difference in Akira Toriyama's influence on each project, as well as the distinction between the terms "plot", "draft", and "script".

[The Dark Knight]

Akira Toriyama is a screenwriter for the movies, and that is precisely where his influence is most extensive. This is because he doesn't just write a premise for someone else to turn into a screenplay; he writes the screenplay himself, scene by scene and line by line.

Even with the movies, Toriyama himself said his involvement was being somewhat exaggerated, stating that "It’s really embarrassing to have this called a “screenplay”. It’d probably be more accurate to say it’s just a memo."

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -comments/

The problem is, Toei and everyone else were treating these memos and drafts as actual completed stories ready to be adapted as is, which is why these new stories feel so bare bones.

[SupremeKai25]

1. The creation of Super Saiyan Blue is tied to the movie Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F', which was developed in 2014—even before Dragon Ball Super or Zamasu existed. People misinterpret Toriyama's comment, assuming he had Zamasu in mind.

Toriyama said he was the one who "had to go with Blue". And the "next white-haired villain" is quite clearly Zamasu, or who else, exactly? There's no other white-haired villain in mainline Super. Last I checked, Freeza, Moro, and the RRA Androids are bald, and Granolah and the Heeters are not white-haired.

Meanwhile, as you can see from my profile picture, Zamasu quite clearly has white hair.

2. In all the examples you cited, you actually corroborate my point that Akira Toriyama did not write the Dragon Ball Super script. The key terms in your examples are plot and draft, not script.

"Original Draft", not "vague draft". So you were wrong to use the adjective "vague" and you should instead use the adjective "original". The term "story" is also used repeatedly, and the term "script" is used at least once.

There is Akira Toriyama's draft,

Which is not a vague draft. That's an adjective you added to minimize Toriyama's involvement. It's not a vague draft, it's the original draft. And you don't know if it was vague. Toyotaro didn't say anything of the sort.

Just because the draft only outlines the major plot points doesn't make it vague if those plot points are explained in detail. And we don't know how detailed they were, but we know that for the Future Trunks arc at least, Toyotaro read something filled with tension from those drafts.

You are also incorrect in stating that Akira Toriyama is the screenwriter for Dragon Ball Super.

He is the writer of Dragon Ball Super. I didn't say "screenwriter", I said writer. He said numerous times that he thought about the story. Once again, I didn't say he was the only writer, but he is the writer. All the storylines and major characters in Super are Toriyama's stories, and Toriyama's characters, either created by him or carrying his stamp of approval after he reviewed Toyotaro's drafts.

Just because he didn't personally write the dialogue doesn't mean he wasn't the writer of Super. Writing the dialogue is not a requirement. He was the writer of Super simply because he thought about the overarching narrative of Super (Goku's endless struggle to reach Beerus) and the main narrative of each arc.

And sure, there was a mistranslation from "original author Toriyama" to "writing by Toriyama", but we still know that all these stories from the manga both followed a story outline written by Toriyama, and were reviewed by Toriyama. So they are, in essence, Toriyama's stories. Toyotaro even said that he always remained close to the essence of Toriyama's story, even when he marginally went off-script.

I hope I have clearly highlighted the difference in Akira Toriyama's influence on each project, as well as the distinction between the terms "plot", "draft", and "script".

In all the interviews between Toriyama and Toyotaro, they regularly use the terms "original draft", "story", and "plot" without distinction. Toriyama's original drafts (=/= vague) contained the plot and story of Super. So Toriyama wrote the plot and story of Super.

Did Toriyama have more influence in the movies? Sure. And he also had more influence in the manga as well, as I even acknowledged.

But he is still the writer of Super. Dragon Ball Super is his creation, his story, that he created. And if anything you're overblowing the importance of writing the dialogues. Writing the dialogues is not a requirement. There's more to a story than the dialogues.

[The Dark Knight]

You're overblowing the importance of writing the dialogues. Writing the dialogues is not a requirement. There's more to a story than the dialogues.

The dialogue of any story, be it a movie, anime, games, etc. is very important, as that's the key aspect of the story that characterizes the characters of the story. All the complaints about Goku's character in the story are based nearly exclusively on the dialogue of the show. "I don't know what a kiss is"; that single line of dialogue went a long way in hurting Goku's character in the show. Your favorite character, Zamasu, is heavily carried by the dialogue they wrote for him.

[SupremeKai25]

You're overblowing the importance of writing the dialogues. Writing the dialogues is not a requirement. There's more to a story than the dialogues.

The dialogue of any story, be it a movie, anime, games, etc. is very important, as that's the key aspect of the story that characterizes the characters of the story. All the complaints about Goku's character in the story are based nearly exclusively on the dialogue of the show. "I don't know what a kiss is"; that single line of dialogue went a long way in hurting Goku's character in the show. Your favorite character, Zamasu, is heavily carried by the dialogue they wrote for him.

Which is why I equally like Toriyama, Toyotaro, and Toei, and I am glad that they are all three working on Super. And I am happy that Toriyama didn't write the dialogue for Zamasu, since, as per Toriyama's own admission, Zamasu's the most psychologically complex villain he's ever made, and he'd have trouble fleshing out his dialogue properly.

It doesn't change the fact that Zamasu, like Jiren, Hit, Moro, Heeters, Granolah, and all the rest (except maybe random fodders from fodder universes at the Tournament of Power) are Toriyama's characters and stories, either created directly by him or carrying his stamp of approval after he reviewed Toyotaro's drafts. And the anime producers are fully within their rights to credit Toriyama as the author, which he was.

And the complaints about that "kiss" joke should've ended 2016, which btw was 10 years ago. Goku knows what a kiss is, he just thought it was funny that Trunks gave Mai a senzu bean by kissing her since that's a weird and unusual way to give someone a senzu bean.

Or if you don't like that explanation, I have another one: He wanted to make all those orphaned kids with genocided families and destroyed homes laugh/smile, so he made himself look dumb.

[kiarasuraru]

And the complaints about that "kiss" joke should've ended 2016, which btw was 10 years ago. Goku knows what a kiss is, he just thought it was funny that Trunks gave Mai a senzu bean by kissing her since that's a weird and unusual way to give someone a senzu bean.

Or if you don't like that explanation, I have another one: He wanted to make all those orphaned kids with genocided families and destroyed homes laugh/smile, so he made himself look dumb.

Don't overdose on the copium, my dude.

[Kid Buu]

And the complaints about that "kiss" joke should've ended 2016, which btw was 10 years ago. Goku knows what a kiss is, he just thought it was funny that Trunks gave Mai a senzu bean by kissing her since that's a weird and unusual way to give someone a senzu bean.

Or if you don't like that explanation, I have another one: He wanted to make all those orphaned kids with genocided families and destroyed homes laugh/smile, so he made himself look dumb.

Don't overdose on the copium, my dude.

The real truth is that clearly Ch-Chi is the person Yamcha had an affair with, why do you think Gohan has such similar hairstyles?

[Kenji]

There's no mistranslation there.
Goku became dumber and a worse father/husband/grandfather/person in modern Dragon Ball.
Numerous characters call him out for being a terrible father/husband/grandfather/person.
Vegeta calls him out for being an awful husband and father.
Piccolo calls him out for being an awful grandfather.
Panzy calls him out for being an awful father.

You can give the benefit of the doubt if that one scene was an isolated incident.
But that scene isn't an isolated incident, it's just yet another moment in a long list of moments showing Goku doesn't give a crap about his family. I mean, he didn't give them that much of a crap in the original manga either, but forgetting his granddaughter's name and not knowing what a kiss is is a new low.

And no, none of this is a matter of misinterpreting the nuances of the Japanese language, Toyotaro himself says Goku has become a worse person in Super: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dragonballsupe ... s_account/

[taikufuru]

1. The creation of Super Saiyan Blue is tied to the movie Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F', which was developed in 2014—even before Dragon Ball Super or Zamasu existed. People misinterpret Toriyama's comment, assuming he had Zamasu in mind.

Toriyama said he was the one who "had to go with Blue". And the "next white-haired villain" is quite clearly Zamasu, or who else, exactly? There's no other white-haired villain in mainline Super. Last I checked, Freeza, Moro, and the RRA Androids are bald, and Granolah and the Heeters are not white-haired.

Meanwhile, as you can see from my profile picture, Zamasu quite clearly has white hair.

2. In all the examples you cited, you actually corroborate my point that Akira Toriyama did not write the Dragon Ball Super script. The key terms in your examples are plot and draft, not script.

"Original Draft", not "vague draft". So you were wrong to use the adjective "vague" and you should instead use the adjective "original". The term "story" is also used repeatedly, and the term "script" is used at least once.

There is Akira Toriyama's draft,

Which is not a vague draft. That's an adjective you added to minimize Toriyama's involvement. It's not a vague draft, it's the original draft. And you don't know if it was vague. Toyotaro didn't say anything of the sort.

Just because the draft only outlines the major plot points doesn't make it vague if those plot points are explained in detail. And we don't know how detailed they were, but we know that for the Future Trunks arc at least, Toyotaro read something filled with tension from those drafts.

You are also incorrect in stating that Akira Toriyama is the screenwriter for Dragon Ball Super.

He is the writer of Dragon Ball Super. I didn't say "screenwriter", I said writer. He said numerous times that he thought about the story. Once again, I didn't say he was the only writer, but he is the writer. All the storylines and major characters in Super are Toriyama's stories, and Toriyama's characters, either created by him or carrying his stamp of approval after he reviewed Toyotaro's drafts.

Just because he didn't personally write the dialogue doesn't mean he wasn't the writer of Super. Writing the dialogue is not a requirement. He was the writer of Super simply because he thought about the overarching narrative of Super (Goku's endless struggle to reach Beerus) and the main narrative of each arc.

And sure, there was a mistranslation from "original author Toriyama" to "writing by Toriyama", but we still know that all these stories from the manga both followed a story outline written by Toriyama, and were reviewed by Toriyama. So they are, in essence, Toriyama's stories. Toyotaro even said that he always remained close to the essence of Toriyama's story, even when he marginally went off-script.

I hope I have clearly highlighted the difference in Akira Toriyama's influence on each project, as well as the distinction between the terms "plot", "draft", and "script".

In all the interviews between Toriyama and Toyotaro, they regularly use the terms "original draft", "story", and "plot" without distinction. Toriyama's original drafts (=/= vague) contained the plot and story of Super. So Toriyama wrote the plot and story of Super.

Did Toriyama have more influence in the movies? Sure. And he also had more influence in the manga as well, as I even acknowledged.

But he is still the writer of Super. Dragon Ball Super is his creation, his story, that he created. And if anything you're overblowing the importance of writing the dialogues. Writing the dialogues is not a requirement. There's more to a story than the dialogues.

"Vague" is an adjective. Akira Toriyama's original draft is vague by nature precisely because it's an draft. It's not that hard to understand.

Akira Toriyama did not write Dragon Ball Super. He wrote the original draft—the basis of the story—and handed it over to Toyotarō and the Toei Animation staff, who then developed it into what would become Dragon Ball Super.

As for the manga, Toyotarō is the author of Dragon Ball Super, not Akira Toriyama, even though Toriyama had proportionally more influence there than he did on the TV series. It literally says so on the cover.

Yes, Zamasu has white hair. But as I said, Dragon Ball Super—as well as Champa and Zamasu himself—didn't even exist when Super Saiyan Blue was created in 2014.
At the time, Toriyama considered making Goku's hair white, but ultimately chose blue instead. Looking back, he said it was the right decision because white would have conflicted with Zamasu's appearance.

Now, if you genuinely think that writing an outline is equivalent to writing a properly structured script, episode by episode, by professional screenwriters, then I really have nothing more to say. It's simply a lack of understanding of how these productions are made.

Jesus, it's literally stated right here:

Next up in Dragon Ball Super, adult Trunks will be putting in his first appearance in a long time! I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office. Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot, then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be.

If the outline weren't vague, it wouldn't need to be expanded, revised, and developed.

[kiarasuraru]

There's no mistranslation there.
Goku became dumber and a worse father/husband/grandfather/person in modern Dragon Ball.
Numerous characters call him out for being a terrible father/husband/grandfather/person.
Vegeta calls him out for being an awful husband and father.
Piccolo calls him out for being an awful grandfather.
Panzy calls him out for being an awful father.

You can give the benefit of the doubt if that one scene was an isolated incident.
But that scene isn't an isolated incident, it's just yet another moment in a long list of moments showing Goku doesn't give a crap about his family. I mean, he didn't give them that much of a crap in the original manga either, but forgetting his granddaughter's name and not knowing what a kiss is is a new low.

And no, none of this is a matter of misinterpreting the nuances of the Japanese language, Toyotaro himself says Goku has become a worse person in Super: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dragonballsupe ... s_account/

And it's all 120% from Toriyama at that too. That we go and see so many of those happening in both the manga and the anime mean he actually even went out of this way to mark them as [VERY IMPORTANT SCENE MUST HAPPEN YES OR YES]
I remember how when re-reading the manga every once in a while there was an scene of Goku just doing or saying something so specific, something that stuck out like a sore thumb, sometimes straight-up stopping the whole scene where Goku might as well have looked at the viewer to tell them how they must feel and think, that I would bet anything Toriyama specifically put in himself.
Dude overcorrected HARD from how butthurt he was about "Hero Goku" and I honestly genuinely cannot comprehend how so many people are in denial about it when this is an argument that's happening every fucking where. But nah brah trust me it's all because you watched english dub hero Goku in the actual Japanese Goku was always like this totes.
Like I said before, the Goku he wrote in the modern era was a fanfic version of what he thought he wrote, not the actual Goku that actually happened.