Why is the "FRIEZA" spelling wrong?

[Gaffer Tape]

There is absolutely no reason why one of these should be accepted and the other one not, or one be decried as wrong while the other one isn't. There is absolutely nothing different about these, except that I would argue that Bulma is far more egregious an offense than Fr ieza.

One is the spelling consistently used throughout the entire manga from the character's very frst appearance, and one is some completely nonsensical spelling thought up by some late-to-the-party dubbers with little basis in logic, precedence or... anything, really.

You're right. And, in case I haven't made myself clear, I don't support dub terminology. But I can see where the people who do are coming from in that it's not necessarily a "wrong" translation. It's just not as good as Freeza, which I personally use. Likewise, there are better translations than Bulma (and I personally use Bulma... for now, at least... I only recently thought about this and am on the fence about it), despite the fact that that translation appears in more authentic works. And since the main argument being brought to the table by the pro-Freeza camp is that "Freeza" is right because it more accurately preserves the pun... well, you see where I'm going with this, don't you? Basically, I feel that everything should be attempted to be held to the same standards in regards to accuracy, otherwise you come off as hypocritical, get me?

Both have roots in FUNimation (if I recall correctly... maybe Krillin has some prior precedent, but not often, I don't think).

"Krilin" and "Krillin" were both relatively common among localizers before Funi came along.

I stand corrected. But note that I did admit I wasn't sure. However, my point remains the same.

[Silver Sinspawn]

That's what I'm hoping for. Mike would make it all Japanese names, something easy to decide on. Then we'd only use dub names when no other name existed, but by no means should we make up a name. Like WTO. There are some characters who remain nameless in all places minus the dub, usually filler characters.

[Gaffer Tape]

There are some characters who remain nameless in all places minus the dub, usually filler characters.

And in that case, I hope we can agree that they should remain nameless.

[Silver Sinspawn]

Even Farmer with shotgun? Or would it just be called Farmer With Shotgun?
But there are some planets and races entirely mentioned in the dub. Like Namcheck. Would we make the page but reference the origin?

[Adamant]

And since the main argument being brought to the table by the pro-Freeza camp is that "Freeza" is right because it more accurately preserves the pun... well, you see where I'm going with this, don't you? Basically, I feel that everything should be attempted to be held to the same standards in regards to accuracy, otherwise you come off as hypocritical, get me?

I see where you're coming from, the thing is just that no one would ever even think of spelling it "Frieza" if some dub guy hadn't said "this is how you spell it". There's no logic or reason behind the spelling, it's nothing but "dub x says so". If that dub guy had spelled it "Phriza" instead, would you argue for that, too?

[Hujio]

Not even Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai always use the same spelling (Kuririn for the former and Krillin for the latter), nor do they always use the same terminology...

Oh, I wouldn't worry about that. Mike and I pretty much agree on most every name, although I'm sure we'll debate a couple. I personally have no problem with using Kuririn, which I'm sure is what we'll use on the Kanzenshuu Wiki-thing. I've just always used Krillin, since before the days of FUNimation, and I'm just too lazy to change it on the thousands of pages we have since it isn't really that important of a change. Of course, the Wiki-thing will have to be based on names that most fans around the world would be most familiar with. It'd be idiotic to choose a name from a non-centralized version. I think we can all agree, the Japanese version is the universal version of the show.

[Gaffer Tape]

And since the main argument being brought to the table by the pro-Freeza camp is that "Freeza" is right because it more accurately preserves the pun... well, you see where I'm going with this, don't you? Basically, I feel that everything should be attempted to be held to the same standards in regards to accuracy, otherwise you come off as hypocritical, get me?

I see where you're coming from, the thing is just that no one would ever even think of spelling it "Frieza" if some dub guy hadn't said "this is how you spell it". There's no logic or reason behind the spelling, it's nothing but "dub x says so". If that dub guy had spelled it "Phriza" instead, would you argue for that, too?

I'm not arguing for it in the first place. I'm all in favor of Freeza and have no intention of ever spelling the name with an i. I was just bringing up some other comparisons that are exactly the same in order to show that Toriyama's grasp of English does not necessarily constitute a proper translation, that fans on both sides of the fence are too entrenched with what they're used to objectively evaluate their own choices, and that some long-time established names might need re-evaluation as well, regardless of their origin if accuracy is what we're trying achieve.

Not even Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai always use the same spelling (Kuririn for the former and Krillin for the latter), nor do they always use the same terminology...

Oh, I wouldn't worry about that. Mike and I pretty much agree on most every name, although I'm sure we'll debate a couple. I personally have no problem with using Kuririn, which I'm sure is what we'll use on the Kanzenshuu Wiki-thing. I've just always used Krillin, since before the days of FUNimation, and I'm just too lazy to change it on the thousands of pages we have since it isn't really that important of a change. Of course, the Wiki-thing will have to be based on names that most fans around the world would be most familiar with. It'd be idiotic to choose a name from a non-centralized version. I think we can all agree, the Japanese version is the universal version of the show.

Oh, of course. I wasn't worried about that, and I have faith in both sites to be accurate and well-researched on most things. I was just saying that, even if every single one of us only knew the Japanese version, and the dub's mistakes had never reached us, there'd still be room for debate, and we still wouldn't agree on everything because there are just so many variables.

Oh, and to Silver Sinspawn: names originally created solely for the dub have no place in canon, as far as I'm concerned. And "farmer with a shotgun" or however you want to put it is just a descriptive title, not a name, so... I dunno.

[Silver Sinspawn]

What about Cellin?

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Tertiary_Characters this is a page of (mostly) characters who were only named in the dub. It's the biggest fuck up the wiki ever made, IMO. Considering it includes canon characters. Please tell me we won't do this. EVER

[Olivier Hague]

And general consensus, on the "It's wrong" side anyway, is that it's wrong because "ie" is a completely random and needless addition/change. "Bulma" isn't the same. Bulma's always been Bulma. It might be "incorrect", but it's universally incorrect. It isn't the same situation as Freeza/Frieza, so you can't really apply the same argument.

My point was that just because a name spelling "looks odd" or includes what you feel is a random or needless change from the original pun, that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
Case in point: the spelling "Bulma" might be odd and contain needless changes from the original pun, but it's arguably correct, considering that's the one the author uses.

"Freeza" over "Frieza"? Sure. But not for the reasons some people are giving.

[TripleRach]

And that's only because it just becomes a topic of, "This is what I'm used to, and you're not going to change my mind" argument. Which is the point I was trying to make, not about universality, not about acceptance, not about origin. All of that is irrelevant to what's happening in this thread. Fr ieza and Bulma are analogous in the fact that they are both reasonable approximations of their respective romanizations (Furiiza and Buruma), but they both muddy up the pun because they were both made somewhat haphazardly by people who weren't sure what they were doing (FUNimation because they're not native Japanese speakers, Toriyama because he's not a native English speaker). There is absolutely no reason why one of these should be accepted and the other one not, or one be decried as wrong while the other one isn't. There is absolutely nothing different about these, except that I would argue that Bulma is far more egregious an offense than Fr ieza. Same with Krillin.

In both cases, the attitudes of the fans are the same: "This is what I'm used to, so I'm going to dig in my heels, stop up my ears, and yell until you go away!" The only difference, as you point out, is that in the Freeza/Fr ieza debate, people are yelling two different things, whereas in the Bulma case, most people are only yelling one thing.

This has been one of my minor annoyances with the fandom in general. Personal preference and stubbornness seems to take priority over consistency, and sometimes logic. For instance, many people will say there's only one way to spell character names that are identical to real life words, such as Piccolo and Trunks, and everything else is "wrong" or "weeaboo." But when it comes to someone like Goten's girlfriend, many of those same people will reject "Palace" as a spelling because they just plain don't like it. Or there's the fact that "Chaozu" and "Taopaipai" are generally preferred over their Pinyin spellings, but the opposite is true for "Yi Xing Long" vs "Iishinron." Inconsistency in general just bugs me a lot, though. People are free to like what they like, but in an ideal Dictator Rachel world, everyone would stick to one system and have a reason for everything besides "just because."

As for the actual topic and what's right or wrong spelling wise, that's a little hard to say. I just mentioned systems, and there's a few different ones to go by. There's the spellings used in official Japanese media (manga, anime, guidebooks, games, toys...), spellings used in official English translations (FUNimation's dub, FUNimation's subs, Viz...), spellings used in other official translations that also use the Latin alphabet (French, Spanish, German...), literal romanizations (Hepburn, Nihon, Kunrei...), spellings that match the pun (most of which are really flexible)... But most of those systems have their own flaws, like translations that completely alter or ruin some names, or the fact that the Japanese spellings often aren't consistent with each other and have multiple options for some names. I straight-up go with the puns for everything partly because it seems like the easiest system to be consistent about, but in the end I'm still just some random internet schmuck who's coming up with things at my whim.

But as I was saying before, many people seem to prefer deciding on spellings on an individual basis rather than sticking with any particular system. If you're doing that, it's kind of hard to really call anything right or wrong because it's so subjective. However, I'll just throw in that "Frieza" sucks because the pronunciation is more ambiguous than "Freeza" is, at least for English speakers. Plus, it's a pun on "freezer," and Japan (the creator) had been using it since the days when FUNimation was just a twinkle in Gen Fukunaga's eye. Meanwhile, the pro-Frieza reasons basically amount to "FUNimation did it" and "because I can."

Sorry if I came off as kind of preachy about the consistency stuff. I'm just trying to say... frie your mind, don't be so stubborn.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Popped back in just to clarify this. Add the caveat of "so long as it's not completely different," which I tried to express in that post. If it's a total change like "Tien" or "Hercule," or something that completely absolutely misses the pun like "Bulla," it's probably best to sweep them under the rug just for the sake of consistency.
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I think the reason why "Bulla" hasn't been filtered is because it's an accurate transliteration, despite the fact that it misses the pun.

[desirecampbell]

Okie dokie, let's clear some things up right now.

Noone is arguing that Frieza is wrong because it obfuscates the pun - that's stupid. We're not arguing to 'Freezer', here. This is not an argument about "why Frieza is wrong", this is an argument about "why Frieza is right".


What arguments does anyone have for why Frieza might be acceptable?

It can be pronounced the same way - that's stupid, and I can't believe anyone could possibly think that's enough to justify the spelling. 'Phriza' is pronounced the same, 'Fryss' is pronounced the same. And some of the greatest writers in English history would argue that 'Ghwrosigh' is pronounced the same as well.

フリーザ could be romanized as 'Frieza' - Yes, it could also be romanized as 'furiiza' or 'furyz' or 'phliza'. But to justify that you'd have to completely ignore the fact that it comes from the English word 'freezer', and it is exactly the same kana as 'freezer' minus a vowel elongation. There's no legitimate reason one would change the 'ee' to 'ie'. The kana for the rest of the word stays exactly the same. It's exactly the same kind of thinking that would argue that Bulma had a Dragon 'Redaa'.

It doesn't need to show the word exactly, it's a pun it can be hidden a little. - You're right. It is a pun. Toriyama often takes an English word and changes the prnouciation or spelling somewhat to hide the word a little. He does it here, in fact. But he doesn't change the 'ee' sound, or it's spelling.He changes only the final vowel from long to short. Thus, logically, when romanizing we remember that his only changed the final vowel from long to short and spell the word accordingly.

If Toriyama had written the name as フリザー then we'd probably go with 'Frezer' because that's where the change is. But because it's written as フリーザ (that is, the change is only in going from 'zaa/zer' to 'za') changing the 'ee' to 'ie' or 'ii' makes as much sense as changing the 'f' to 'ph'.

It's used on official releases - Almost exclusively FUNi releases. And even then almost exclusively dub-only releases. Their properly translated Japanese script says 'Freeza' as does their Dragon Box's written material. Your best argument here is that 'Battle Stadium DON' used 'Frieza'. And that's certainly not enough to overtake the romanization logic, the fact that 'Freeza' is used on most first-party merchandise; and that other English publications use 'Freeza'.



The point is, there's no reason for Frieza. There are no valid arguments for it. If we didn't know what the pun was, or if there had never been any other romanization to go from, then Frieza would be an non-standard romanization (which would be weird to use if we thought it was just a name) but not completely unacceptable. But the fact is we do know what the pun is, we do see lots of romanizations of the name before hand. Frieza was made, clearly and obviously, to accommodate trademark registration for FUNi. That, in and of itself isn't damnable - but it's also not enough to justify it's use.

[Olivier Hague]

This is not an argument about "why Frieza is wrong"

*looks at topic title*
...
Really?

The kana for the rest of the word stays exactly the same. It's exactly the same kind of thinking that would argue that Bulma had a Dragon 'Redaa'.

Of course not. Don't confuse names and words.

He changes only the final vowel from long to short. Thus, logically, when romanizing we remember that his only changed the final vowel from long to short and spell the word accordingly.

You should also remember that when you're romanizing names like that, you're making a guess. The guess might be educated, it might make sense to you (because you followed a "system" or "rules" that you like, and/or you think you've applied Ockham's razor), but it's still just that in the end: a guess.
How an author's made up names are supposed to be spelled is up to the author himself, ultimately. Your guess is just a guess and might be wrong. Just because Toriyama based a name on an English word without tweaking its kana spelling, it doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't tweak the alphabet spelling of that name. Same thing for parts of the name, by the same logic.

[Fin]

Actually, on the Bulma spelling... couldn't it be part of the joke? I remember in her first appearance she was pretty embarrassed about where her name came from. Seems like Toriyama may have had her wear a shirt with a wrong romanisation to show her trying to distance her name from its origin.

[Cipher]

Actually, on the Bulma spelling... couldn't it be part of the joke? I remember in her first appearance she was pretty embarrassed about where her name came from. Seems like Toriyama may have had her wear a shirt with a wrong romanisation to show her trying to distance her name from its origin.

No. Toriyama just sucks at English. End of story. I'm not even joking.

The best pun-based transliteration for ブルマ would be "Blooma." Toriyama likely had no idea (and didn't care) how "bloomers" was spelled in English, so he just played with the katakana ブルマー and romanized it any which way.

[Olivier Hague]

Actually, on the Bulma spelling... couldn't it be part of the joke? I remember in her first appearance she was pretty embarrassed about where her name came from. Seems like Toriyama may have had her wear a shirt with a wrong romanisation to show her trying to distance her name from its origin.

No. Toriyama just sucks at English. End of story.

Not that crap again... His English skills have nothing to do with that.
If you want to make fun of them, do so regarding "Red Ribon" and "Well Come". Not "Bulma". That's another matter altogether.

[Cipher]

Not that crap again... His English skills have nothing to do with that.
If you want to make fun of them, do so regarding "Red Ribon" and "Well Come". Not "Bulma". That's another matter altogether.

How so? He's demonstrated time and time again that he has no concept of English spelling or appropriate romanization. That applies to the majority of manga-ka, or hell, the majority of Japanese people. Have you ever seen a t-shirt from Japan?

And how is "Bulma" another matter altogether? It's strong evidence that he was not familiar with the word "bloomers" outside of its katakana spelling. He's romanized クリリン at least two different ways, for God's sake.

Not that this really applies to the topic at hand.

[Olivier Hague]

Not that crap again... His English skills have nothing to do with that.
If you want to make fun of them, do so regarding "Red Ribon" and "Well Come". Not "Bulma". That's another matter altogether.

How so?

Because. It's. A. Name. Toriyama can spell it however he likes. It's his prerogative.
The name may be based on an English word, but that's it.

It's strong evidence that he was not familiar with the word "bloomers" outside of its katakana spelling.

No, it's not.
You're assuming that if Toriyama had been familiar with the alphabet spelling "bloomers", he wouldn't have spelled the name of his character "Bulma", but rather something closer to "bloomers". Problem is, you really have no idea.

He's romanized クリリン at least two different ways, for God's sake.

And that has something to do with his English skills... how?

[Amigo Ten]

In both cases, the attitudes of the fans are the same: "This is what I'm used to, so I'm going to dig in my heels, stop up my ears, and yell until you go away!" The only difference, as you point out, is that in the Freeza/Fr ieza debate, people are yelling two different things, whereas in the Bulma case, most people are only yelling one thing.

I don't think it's solely this. With Freeza there's two different spellings, so some just go with what they like or what they're used to, but as we've seen in this topic, some go with what they view as being correct.

My point was, this discussion exists in the first place because of both terms being in popular use. That isn't the case for Bulma. While there are opinions what her "correct" name would be, debate isn't even close to the level it is with Freeza, because the incorrect name has been universally established since the series began.

If she did have "Blooma" written on her shirt, and Funi had called her "Bulma", you would have this same situation. Just like "Bra" and "Bulla". In which case debate turns to which one is correct. That's the order it seems things seem to go in.

A) Is something universally established?
i) If so, then that's good enough
ii) If not, then what is the correct term?

[VegettoEX]

Just like "Bra" and "Bulla". In which case debate turns to which one is correct.

Except in that case, romanization aside, one is pronounced correctly ("Bra"), and the other is not in its complacent and/or ignorant fandom stemming from one particular company changing it out of "necessity"/"censoring" ("BULL - uh").