Kanzenshuu

Piccolo straight up tells Goku that it is impossible when Goku asked if he could do it. Otherwise they wouldn't have needed Dende.

I think he could perform the technique (?) Kami used to get rid of part of himelf, but the beinf that would emerge would probably not be Kami.

Yes, I meant he could ...

Check the Super Saiyan Appearance Guide, there's an entry for Ultimate Gohan's possibly powered-up and non-powered-up states appearance.

:wink: Thanks!!! I just did!!!

That's what I meant when I said that there's a normal fporm and powered up form, that could be considered as tranaformation in ...

It's not so much of a transformation as stated by Elder Kaioshin;

“Hmph, transforming isn’t good. That Super whatever-its-called is the wrong way [of doing things]…”

It's more like a powered up state.

But, Elder Kaioshin might have meant that SSJ is the wrong way, not the concept of ...

:D Hi there...

How are you?



I have a question I'm not yet able to answer to... I've looked for canon sources but I didn't find the proof yet...


I think that Ultimate Gohan is a transformation that works as SSJ, that's what Kaioshin said... It's activated like SSJ... So it should be possible to ...

Noone at that time knew about SS2, so no, it didn't mean that.

They possibly suspected about the existence of SSJ2 because they talk about "surpassing the limit of SSJ2" that is how SSJ2 is called...

I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote in your last post.

And I fear it will be ...

What? How come what Toei did is taken into account?

It's not... But I don't think they could throw in random numbers as if it would be nothing during a more than canon part of the story...

Also nobody said to which form of Cell Dabra is equal. It could very well be Perfect Cell.

It depends ...

It's definitely hard to place Kaioshin since he barely does anything. I think there's a great chance he could be on par with SSjin 2 Gohan since he did way better than him and Dabura against Boo. Also he wasn't really shocked at all at SSjin 2 Gohan's power... only at SSjin 2 Goku's power. Not to ...

Reach "full power of SS" doesn't make sense for me. The point was to surpass SS , which means that the power of SS of that time wasn't enough.

Not only that... Surpassing SSJ actually means SSJ2... It's made clear in Buu's arc when they called it "Super Saiyan that surpassed Super Saiyan itself ...

Goku implied what? Unlike SS grades, mastered SS doesn't give power. Goku and Gohan gotten much more powerful because they mastered SS and trained in the form. A person who mastered SS would still get more powerful if they went into SS Grade II or III.

That can be debated... Goku actually tries ...

Just pointing out once again the the original Japanese line doesn't point blank state that only Trunks and Vegeta can hold their own. The way its worded is that Vegeta and Trunks are just the ones that are most obviously holding their own, and thus the first examples Cell gives, but there may be ...

I think it's likely we underestimate Kaioshin to insane degrees simply because he fears Babidi and co because of the trauma Boo caused him and because of everyone's reputations. Feats >>> statements. We saw Dai Kaioshin Boo one-shot SSjin 2 Gohan and Dabura without even trying and yet it took quite ...

Grade II wastes Ki but increases any capacity, including speed... Grade III greatly increases power and endurance but wastes even more Ki than Grade II and reduces speed too...

But they should be wrong ways to attain the Full Power of SSJ like Goku implied... While what Goku and Gohan does is the ...

For one Kaioshin didn't think he was surpassed until he felt SSjin 2 Goku's burst against Yakon.

That's it... Kaioshin is equal to SSJ1... The Saiyan's power that really surprised him is SSJ2...
And maybe Goku's SSJ2 more than Gohan's he saw at the tournament...

And he did better against Dai ...

Near Death powers may have just been infrequent, not abolished.

It's not significant anymore...

And Goku always says he has hit his limit. Then what happens the next hour, day, or year? He surpasses that. Most times...by a large amount too.

But he doesn't between Cell's and Buu's saga, not ...

Lost post

I think that the 2nd grade may be like Kaioken because it sacrifices Ki to boost anything else... Not the 3rd grade though, because it sacrifices both Ki and speed for insane power and defense...

:P That guy is faaaaaaaaar too weak to be a Makaioshin... :shock: Boojack has actually the right power just like Dabra himself... But that Lucifer is weaker than Kami that is weaker than Enma that is Weaker than a Kaio that is weaker than Dai Kaio that is weaker than the weakest Kaioshin ...

Broly all the way. He was such a badass. He came back the most of any DBZ villain (in terms of death). He's truly a BROly.

:lol: The fact he is so much overrated in terms of Battle Power/Kili reading (people assign him a power possibly even far above 24.000 Kili while he probably never reaches ...

I take it as the limits of Super Saiyan in terms of power output. Not the limits of form. In other words, The SSJ form isn't going to get any stronger on its own. The normal state must get stronger in order for the SSJ form to get any stronger... no longer instead of just tapping into another ...

I always had the idea of Cyborg Tao being a creation of Gero... :)

It would have been a big deal for the scientist, and also Tao's body was well suited because he was among the strongest people on Earth...

I don't think Gero would have feared Tao, he surely had other Androids at his protection ...