The Super Re-Read

[TobyS]

So doesn't the Moro arc show the yardats actually look like the blue dbo designs and all the anime yardats are actually illusions.

So it's not that jimize is a yardat it's that yardats use illusions that so happen to look like whatever the fuck jimize is.

As for the names iirc Beerus and Champa literally see Goku and Geets and say “those were saiyans we should get some”

So when they next see piccolo put out a performance greater than his power level should allow it makes total sense they'd sat “get some of them too”

I like that not everything has to be spelled out, people complained about endless commentary from the stands in the anime.

I would have enjoyed if they got a little more attention or the humans got the Ko a couple of the guys kale blows out here before frost hits them but it is what is I greatly prefer the manga.

I think your point about the chains of connections from Goku is so much more important and why it's better than the anime when everyone stands around waiting for Goku to join their fights fucking up the 48 minutes thing being at all possible.

I really want someone to try and use the limited information to make tiers or scales for the manga top

[batistabus]

So doesn't the Moro arc show the yardats actually look like the blue dbo designs and all the anime yardats are actually illusions.

The Toei Yardratians are not illusions: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

[TobyS]

So doesn't the Moro arc show the yardats actually look like the blue dbo designs and all the anime yardats are actually illusions.

The Toei Yardratians are not illusions: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

He says it's fine to have two different looking groups given how diverse DB earth is.

However in the actual manga when the dispell the illusions only the blue guys are left talking to Vegeta are they not?

[batistabus]

So doesn't the Moro arc show the yardats actually look like the blue dbo designs and all the anime yardats are actually illusions.

The Toei Yardratians are not illusions: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

He says it's fine to have two different looking groups given how diverse DB earth is.

However in the actual manga when the dispell the illusions only the blue guys are left talking to Vegeta are they not?

Not exactly. All of the little green Yardratians are really one (Hatska). While Ch52.Pg4-5 could give you the impression that the pink ones are part of that illusion, the panel on the bottom right of page 6 shows two pink Yardratians going for a leisurely stroll away from Pybara's dojo..

[Magnificent Ponta]

Just quickly dipping in, because I'm a sucker for a question in bold:

Goku screams "I am Son Goku". I don't hate it, but it doesn't really resonate with me. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

I guess it depends how we're supposed to read it. Taken on its own, and read straightforwardly, I suppose it's meant to be a cry of defiance - and if this were the Anime, I'd perhaps expect such a 'moment' to be followed by a burst of power, or some other confounding of Jiren's intentions that would elevate Goku's 'stock' in some fashion. But if the scene is going for heroic defiance here, it fails utterly in my view, because Goku's immediately left staring hopelessly into Jiren's knuckles. So I doubt that's the main intention, as such (not that it couldn't be, of course, but I feel like undercutting the moment like that would be a little too contrarian, even for Toriyama).

I suspect the answer may be in looking at things from Jiren's end - Goku already introduced himself by name in Chapter 33, only to be ignored and told to get lost; Jiren pointedly calls him "nameless" here; though he protests, because his strength is just mediocre to someone like Jiren - so he doesn't 'deserve' anything better. It's only when he shows a different strength unrelated to his 'mediocre' power - in this case, keenness of perception - that Jiren addresses him by name, thus recognising and acknowledging him. So, as a 'beat' meant to do something on its own, I'd agree it's unsuccessful. But situated within the broader sweep of Goku struggling to elicit Jiren's acknowledgement of him, I can dig it.

[batistabus]

I guess it depends how we're supposed to read it. Taken on its own, and read straightforwardly, I suppose it's meant to be a cry of defiance - and if this were the Anime, I'd perhaps expect such a 'moment' to be followed by a burst of power, or some other confounding of Jiren's intentions that would elevate Goku's 'stock' in some fashion. But if the scene is going for heroic defiance here, it fails utterly in my view, because Goku's immediately left staring hopelessly into Jiren's knuckles. So I doubt that's the main intention, as such (not that it couldn't be, of course, but I feel like undercutting the moment like that would be a little too contrarian, even for Toriyama).

I suspect the answer may be in looking at things from Jiren's end - Goku already introduced himself by name in Chapter 33, only to be ignored and told to get lost; Jiren pointedly calls him "nameless" here; though he protests, because his strength is just mediocre to someone like Jiren - so he doesn't 'deserve' anything better. It's only when he shows a different strength unrelated to his 'mediocre' power - in this case, keenness of perception - that Jiren addresses him by name, thus recognising and acknowledging him. So, as a 'beat' meant to do something on its own, I'd agree it's unsuccessful. But situated within the broader sweep of Goku struggling to elicit Jiren's acknowledgement of him, I can dig it.

Thanks for your thoughts. You've helped me add to my own.

From Jiren's point of view - as someone who was never fully acknowledged by his own master - his standard for acknowledgement is high. That ties in nicely with his development later in the arc. That being said, I haven't heard much fan talk about Goku desperate to be acknowledged by Jiren. This is partly because it's a manga-only development, but it's something I don't think should just get glanced over. What's going on in Goku's head?

We know that Goku was looking forward to the tournament, and he would be disappointed if he was eliminated early. Generally, we know Goku will never stop striving to improve as a fighter. Improving means being better than your former self, but how much does Goku want to be better than others? Vegeta has been driven by a sense of superiority, but how much is Goku, if at all? Goku takes losing in stride, but he surely wants to win, or at least prove to himself that he's the best (as we saw against Hit in the Universe 6 tournament). He was certainly happy to win the Tenka'ichi Budokai. Goku definitely has a cocky side, so it seems he may be crying out (at least partially) in response to a blow to his pride.

I was inclined to view this as a generic shounen "cool" act of defiance on my first reading. That didn't sit well with me, but I'm content with this.

We see the look on Goku's face at the moment of the worst case scenario. He won't get to fight against the strongest in the universe. He'll never get another chance if his universe is eliminated. He wasn't the best. In fact, he wasn't even close.

Hit repays the favor. The most obvious favor is how Goku "surrendered" to Hit previously, but that was already repaid when Hit took the fall against Monaka. The favor that Hit truly values is the lesson Goku taught Hit about "true strength", aka not relying on his gimmicks. Although, in this case, Goku's "true strength" is the unconventional way he gains allies along the way.

[Cipher]

Here's my thing with the "Yardratian."

Helles looks just like an Earthling, and wears Earthling-styled clothing, and yet ... we know she probably isn't an Earthling, and don't have any questions about what she's doing in Universe 2.

Universe 10 also has at least two fighters that look basically just like human Earthlings down to their outfits. Kahseral looks exactly like a Universe 7 Earthling except for his robotic eye.

Jimeze actually looks less like the Universe 7 Yardratians we eventually see (yes, even the taller pink ones) than those characters resemble Universe 7 Earthlings. Although he shares a basic outfit with them, that isn't something we put weight on in the case of the characters above.

Jimeze isn't a Yardratian. He's just a member of another race in the multiverse that looks like them, just as many races resemble Earthlings. It's on us for assuming he was.

He says it's fine to have two different looking groups given how diverse DB earth is.

However in the actual manga when the dispell the illusions only the blue guys are left talking to Vegeta are they not?

Hatska has already walked Vegeta away from the crowd of the other variety of Yardratians by that point. The other Hatska types are his own illusion, but there really are at least two physically different types of Yardratians on the planet.

There are pink Yardratians Jimeze resembles.

But he isn't a Yardratian.

(In the manga.)

I find Goku's response to Golden Freeza a little strange, since he's seen it all before - it might just be a translation thing, but to say "that must be his new power-up", as though he's inferring it or something instead of straightforwardly explaining what he definitely knows, is very odd and takes me out of the story briefly.

I can actually answer this. The Japanese line is simply him explaining that the form is Freeza's new transformation to #17. On that note, this was actually maintained through the simulpub translation, but wound up being changed for the collected release.

Without saying anything more, I have it on good authority that this is not a mix-up that should be attributed to the translator, and that's all out of me. Slip-ups can happen and there are a lot of steps in the process.

Other, belated thoughts:

• Really enjoying all the thematic echoes you've been pointing out in this arc. I already considered it the most thematically coherent in DB (which is not synonymous with best or favorite, but an element worth noting), but you're pointing out aspects I hadn't considered yet that feel intentional or at least real in their effects. At the same time, none of it feels like it betrays or comes from above the characters or speaks too directly for the fun action and somewhat aloof tone of DB. It's an arc I only like more the more I think about it, which is always nice.

• You mentioned a two-act structure at some point, I believe? The Tournament of Power feels squarely three-act to me, with the first capping off with Universe 4's double "invisible" fighter assault (four chapters in), and that chapter being the last hurrah for the tournament as a large collective battle among competitors with unusual abilities. The second act would begin with Freeza versus the Saiyans, focusing on Kale's rampage as a way of shifting gears into focus on a few, key characters and paving the way for the climax (three chapters), and the final three chapters being the climax itself, with Universe 7 facing off against the remnants of Universe 11. The arc's structure is also something I quite appreciate. It's not perfect, but I think Toyotaro was on the right track in narrowing down the format of the tournament through those kinds of acts.

• Great observation on this being a character-driven arc. I think it's probably the arc that stands most true for in Super, with both the Future Trunks and Galactic Patrol Prisoner arcs being plot-driven, and the Universe 6 arc driven more so by the needs of its situational comedy.
  
  I think I still prefer the Universe 6 arc, but it's close. I do know that my single favorite chapter is coming up in this one.

Hit repays the favor. The most obvious favor is how Goku "surrendered" to Hit previously, but that was already repaid when Hit took the fall against Monaka. The favor that Hit truly values is the lesson Goku taught Hit about "true strength", aka not relying on his gimmicks. Although, in this case, Goku's "true strength" is the unconventional way he gains allies along the way.

Also very well said. That works especially well in that the arc tempts the reader to accept Ultra Instinct as being the answer to its "What is true strength?" question. The arc does offer that to an extent, but much like the technique itself, it isn't the entire answer. But I suppose I can save my thoughts for how Ultra Instinct works in the arc (very satisfyingly) when we get to it.

Again, when you write all this out, the arc sounds dangerously preachy, but it's not. It works specifically because all its thematic gestures are quite aloofly presented.

EDIT--

More thread catch-up:

• On the Namekians: While I acknowledge they would pique fan interest had we only ever had the manga version of events, I can't bring myself to see their limited role as a mistake. There isn't anything inherently interesting about characters simply for sharing a species with main ones, but at the same time it's perfectly natural to turn to Namekians for fleshing out the final two spots of Universe 6's roster as the twin of Universe 7. I think it's perfectly fine, then, to include them but only on a cameo level, and if anything gets me about that scene, it's that they both think it's a good idea to try talking down Kale from between her and the edge of the ring for some reason, rather than approaching her from the other side. Maybe they inherited Piccolo's "brains" (which, given his role as an exposition delivery vehicle for elements Toriyama hasn't quite worked out yet, simply don't exist in the manga no matter how much it and Super insists they do, to an unintentionally amusing extent).

• On Jiren and Goku's dynamic: It's the only time Goku finds himself in the Vegeta role of the Vegeta-Goku dynamic, and I do enjoy it on that level.

• On Freeza vs. the Saiyans: I just want to say that while my single favorite fight in either version of Super is Goku versus Caulifla/Kale/Kefla in the anime, I enjoy Freeza vs. Caulifla quite a bit. (And I certainly think Freeza versus the Saiyans plays a better role in the structure of its arc and story than Goku's fight with the duo in the anime does. I also definitely don't care enough for the arc in the anime to watch it through again just for that part.) This is probably the last time I'll have any reason to mention the anime in this thread, barring maybe thoughts on the two versions' slightly different approaches to the very, very final resolution Here it's just because I want to acknowledge that there's an element exclusive to the anime that I quite like, but note that I also enjoy what the manga has as an alternative. Every time you bring up the anime, there's the risk of seeming like you only enjoy the manga (or vice versa, I suppose, any time you talk about the two together) in comparison, and I want to be clear about that not being the case. I genuinely like this arc limited to how it exists in the manga as a stand-alone storyline, and am generally not thinking about the anime version while reading. It's just that occasionally discussing the two together makes for some interesting commentary, since I and most people in this thread have been through both.

[Yuji]

A common misconception a lot of fans had following Battle of Gods was that Dragon Ball would turn into this sprawling epic with an emphasis on world building because of the introduction of the multiverse. Certainly, Super's arcs, conceptually at the very least, seem at odds with the condensed, narrow-focus stories Toriyama wants to tell. The universe 6 invitational tournament introduced characters from a completely different universe, its Gods and its lore, but then narrowed the scope of the arc to a small ragtag tournament with little spectators in the middle of nowhere, poised to serve a light-hearted and comedic tone. The Future Trunks arc introduces a misguided Kaioshin from a different universe who uses time travel to carry out his plans, but the action is focused on a few decayed cities in Trunks' world with the implicit backdrops of universe 10 (outside of the Kaioshin Realm) and alternate timelines left to the imagination. The Tournament of Power, of course, is the arc with the biggest scale so far, with the strongest beings from eight universes fighting for survival, but once more the focus is narrowed down to Goku and Jiren's dynamic, featuring a small handful of other characters' arcs and dilemmas.

Following the Tournament of Power, Toriyama seemed to shy away a bit from the multiverse concept and returned to the much more familiar and thoroughly explored universe 7. Outside of Resurrection ''F (which, while it may carry itself on fanservice and nostalgia, presented a theme of forgetting the past and letting go of what was familiar, encapsulated by Vegeta's line to Freeza: "Your era ended long ago"), before the Broly movie, all of Super's original arcs made use of the multiverse concept as its backdrop and scenery to tell much more condensed, character-driven stories than one may expect at first glance.

While I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with such an approach (and I'm generally a fan of how Toyotarou explored Toriyama's plot beats), I can't fault fans for expecting something more ambitious and expansive when presented with such a large scale in an arc such as the Tournament of Power.

[The Undying]

Jimeze isn't a Yardratian. He's just a member of another race in the multiverse that looks like them, just as many races resemble Earthlings.

That's... uh, a decent in-universe explanation if you really want to rationalize it, I guess.

It's all very meaningless to me. Anyone who is familiar with the series knows exactly what that design is going for and will invariably have to work out a solution in their heads to distinguish them, despite that not being a part of the story, which I think reflects quite poorly on the setting. It's not necessarily Toyotaro's fault, but I don't see why that matters.

If Jimeze, who is quite clearly a Yardratian concept, didn't appear at all in the manga, nobody would be having this conversation. If you're not going to use them and don't agree with their inclusion, scrap them.

There isn't anything inherently interesting about characters simply for sharing a species with main ones

Super obviously thinks so, though, which is the problem. If you're giving your readers (readers of an action comic that very plainly makes its rich world a part of its draw, I might add) a specific expectation based on what you did in a previous arc only to basically hustle them out of that expectation in the next one, that's not on the readers. It's on the writers.

Actually, the original manga makes a pretty big deal out of it too. Perhaps even moreso than Super.

[Cipher]

The Jimeze thing was a jokey Marvel no-prize answer.

But for the Namekians:

There isn't anything inherently interesting about characters simply for sharing a species with main ones

Super obviously thinks so, though, which is the problem.

It's actually unclear to me that the manga does?

I don't doubt that were the only role we'd ever seen from the two Namekains what the manga gave us, fans would be interested in knowing more and a certain segment would feel it a waste that more wasn't done with their inclusion.

I'm just not sure I identify at all with that being a reasonable response or critique, is all. It feels completely natural to me to turn to them for minor cameos in fleshing out the last two spots of Universe 6's roster. Just as it felt perfectly natural, before we had a chapter highlighting him a bit more via a fight with Tenshinhan and Chaozu, to include a Metalman in Saganbo's roster of goons. No one, to my recollection, was particularly hungry to know more about him, but a species we know should also exist in Universe 7 felt like a normal place to go to in fleshing out the gang.

So while I do think there would be fans, particularly those who focus on world-building, who would want more, I really can only think that the extent to which the Namekians' role in the manga is brought up for critique is a result of some clouding of expectations from the anime.

I'm not sure what it is about the ToP, but it seems like, more than any other arc in Super, people are really unwilling to engage with it on its own, and I think that's unfortunate because there's a lot here to like. It might just stem from the expectation, which the anime caters to (to its own expense) that with a roster of 80 characters, more of them are highlighted. I don't think it's possible to properly engage with the arc if you don't remove that expectation (which the story itself never promises) from your mind. If you can get over that, I think you can start to see what the manga offers in its own light, and it's really enjoyable when you do.

But yeah--Even ignoring the likely real-world scenario of Toyotaro being handed the two Namekians to use, I don't think there's anything unnatural about saying "We need two more spots filled for Universe 6. How about Namekians?" even if you don't have big plans for their role. It's truly exactly the same thing as featuring a Universe 7 Metalman next arc, and I think the difference in the way people responded to those two (even when the Metalman was just a cameo), speaks a lot as to why people take issue with the two Namekians' role (because they saw the anime first).

(It also kills me a little bit that so many posts in this thread are now dedicated to something the manga clearly doesn't care about, instead of the things it does, but here I am feeding into it. : /)

[The Undying]

The Jimeze thing was a jokey Marvel no-prize answer.

Damn. I should have figured.

So while I do think there would be fans, particularly those who focus on world-building, who would want more, I really can only think that the extent to which the Namekians' role in the manga is brought up for critique is a result of some clouding of expectations from the anime.

I firmly believe it is for a lot of people that criticize the arc, to be sure. Their expectations are informed by what they see in the anime, so when they don't have Lieutenant Swampman getting loads of pointless spotlight and "time to shine" moments against Goku or whoever in the manga, drama and outrage ensues.

The disconnect, for me, is when the plot decides to sideline Namekians from a parallel universe with very redundant justification and almost no background before they're eliminated. The Universe 6 Tournament might not have been a battle royale, but also wasted no time providing ample context for a character like Cabba, who - just like Saonel and Pirina - are of the same race as one of the mainstays, which would naturally invoke quite a bit of reader curiosity and interest. Anime or no anime, I don't think that reaction would have changed in the slightest. They're certainly more relevant to the fandom than Metalmen.

This is also addressing Yuji's post, but I will add that I personally have no issue with Toriyama or Toyotaro making the lore/worldbuilding a backdrop for more character-driven stories rather than a focus per se. I happen to be a fan of his writing partly because of that. He's good at keeping the window dressing in its place, instead using it to zone in on the story he's trying to tell, and this arc excels at it too. The confusion comes in when folks take this to mean Toriyama rarely ever takes opportunities to at least briefly touch on points of interest he sets up within those arcs, which is honestly provably false. The OG run expands and expounds on DB's world a lot of the time, even when it's sometimes just brief exposition to set something else up, or, hilariously, when Toriyama's over-correcting something he forgot about. It's not the centerpiece, but I don't expect it to be.

This is more akin to having Cabba immediately blown out of the ring by Vegeta and calling it a day. That might not be the best analogy, but you get the point. If Cabba was just a generic alien intended to enhance the larger setting like Toei's fodder goons, I'd be entirely fine with him getting disposable treatment, but he's not. And neither are the characters we've been discussing from a conceptual/design standpoint, I think. I do want to be clear once more that this is a minor nitpick for me overall -- it's just one I happen to feel strongly about, as I think it shows a lack of regard for the level of cohesion that Toyotaro is known for.

It also kills me a little bit that so many posts in this thread are now dedicated to something the manga clearly doesn't care about

I don't think that's true at all. The vast majority of posts in this thread have been very insightful, and I'd argue Toyotaro very clearly cares about lore expansion (to his detriment, at times).

[Cipher]

This is more akin to having Cabba immediately blown out of the ring by Vegeta and calling it a day. That might not be the best analogy, but you get the point. If Cabba was just a generic alien intended to enhance the larger setting like Toei's fodder goons, I'd be entirely fine with him getting disposable treatment, but he's not. And neither are the characters we've been discussing from a conceptual/design standpoint, I think. I do want to be clear once more that this is a minor nitpick for me overall -- it's just one I happen to feel strongly about, as I think it shows a lack of regard for the level of cohesion that Toyotaro is known for.

It's somewhat difficult for me to take a character like Frost or Cabba as a basis for comparison, given the different structures of their introductory arcs. Fighters take the stage one by one in the U6 arc, so everyone--not just those whom share races with characters in Universe 7--is given their spotlights and dues. Cabba is also given a unique story role in how he affects and reflects Vegeta's changes as a character, though Frost may be a more fair example, as there isn't particular reason to require a Freeza-race character in his role, nor to focus so much on that connection. There simply isn't space for cameo-level characters in that arc, whereas there is in the ToP; consequently the different approach in the ToP doesn't feel like it's breaking any of the series' own promises to me.

Though to each their own, I suppose.

I don't think that's true at all. The vast majority of posts in this thread have been very insightful, and I'd argue Toyotaro very clearly cares about lore expansion (to his detriment, at times).

I just meant within the past two pages.

The comment about not caring was also limited to the two Namekians. The manga certainly is interested in making world-building connections in other arcs--particularly the following one, where I'd agree it reaches a bit too high a pitch.

[ankokudaishogun]

We know "Twin universes" have very similar evolution.
But nowhere we were told "unrelated" universes couldn't have limited similarities.
Thus the logical conclusion is that we were presented not with inconsistencies, but new information: "similarities can exists among different universes, but Twin Universes share a great amount of similarities".

I mean, U-4 is all about beast-people, which are(were?) common as fuck in U-7 yet nobody ever points them out.

[pepd]

We know "Twin universes" have very similar evolution.
But nowhere we were told "unrelated" universes couldn't have limited similarities.
Thus the logical conclusion is that we were presented not with inconsistencies, but new information: "similarities can exists among different universes, but Twin Universes share a great amount of similarities".

I mean, U-4 is all about beast-people, which are(were?) common as fuck in U-7 yet nobody ever points them out.

Maybe if we take it as is, but not when we know those are probably third party additions, then they are inconsistent with the original story and don't have effect in it. Beast people is so generic and board that I don't think it can be really used as comparison

[TheSaiyanGod]

Considering Toyotaro's approach in the GPP arc, I would say it is surprising how he dealt with the earthlings in the tournament.

The participation of the Z Fighters against Moro's henchmen is something you typically don't expect from Toriyama. Toyo reduced the pace to give each character moments to shine, as a kind of fanservice, something TOEI usually does a lot (and it is constantly a request from fans apparently). I feel that if Toyo had more time, he would try a similar approach in the ToP manga. As I said, Tori generally doesn't care about this because he quickly sidelined from the main fights the characters who were not able to keep up with the villains' power

I definitely understand the frustration of those who expected more participation from these characters in ToP, it's natural, but these same people criticized the pacing when the opposite was done at Moro arc. It is difficult to find a middle ground between wanting to satisfy the fans' expectation to see more screen time for some characters and at the same time not letting that damage the pacing, relevantly connecting their participation with the main plot.

Even for the anime, the number of 80 fighters may have been exaggerated. A tournament with a smaller number of participants could have brought a more satisfactory conclusion in terms of getting more out of the other universes. Much of what was introduced appeared to have been fanservice only

[The Undying]

It's somewhat difficult for me to take a character like Frost or Cabba as a basis for comparison, given the different structures of their introductory arcs.

That's fair. I'd still contend that introducing these alt-universe Piccolos for the first time in the series only to give them brief cameos goes a bit far, particularly in light of the manga's usual treatment of points of interest, but structural differences between both of Super's tournaments allowing for more cameo-friendly appearances is at least a counterpoint I can level with. As long as people are aware that this concern isn't necessarily about the anime, which I think unfairly dismisses own-merits criticism, I'm gold.

I honestly wasn't expecting my commentary about it to spark as much discussion as it has, so you're free to blame me for starting that fire.

I definitely understand the frustration of those who expected more participation from these characters in ToP, it's natural, but these same people criticized the pacing when the opposite was done at Moro arc.

Just to reiterate, my critique is focused more on context for the Namekians rather than extensive participation, and I vastly prefer the sidelining of background fighters in this arc (to the extent that it feels purposeful and in line with the setting, at least).

But I agree there's an odd double standard from some of those who complained about the manga's approach previously.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I definitely understand the frustration of those who expected more participation from these characters in ToP, it's natural, but these same people criticized the pacing when the opposite was done at Moro arc.

Just to reiterate, my critique is focused more on context for the Namekians rather than extensive participation, and I vastly prefer the sidelining of background fighters in this arc (to the extent that it feels purposeful and in line with the setting, at least).

But I agree there's an odd double standard from some of those who complained about the manga's approach previously.

It's fine, I was not referring specifically to the case of the U6 Namekians because particularly I would also like something to be done with them in the manga version, especially since U6, alongside U7 and 11, was among the main universes of the tournament and was well established in the story, so it is natural that like the Saiyans, the Namekians from another universe also arouse curiosity in those who are watching.

It's just that now I remember people complaining that the Earthlings' role in the Moro arc was just unnecessary padding that damaged the pacing, when in reality much of what fans ask can be considered the same thing (especially when they just want others characters to have more screentime, regardless of the relevance to the plot).

[Magnificent Ponta]

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 37 - 40 (Plus Bonus Chapter #4!)
Part 2 - Chapters 39 and 40 (and Bonus Chapter #4)



Welcome back to the thread where I say "of course" too much The Super Re-Read, one and all! We're finishing off Dragon Ball Super Volume 8, and... Well. It's the big one. (For me, anyway.) I need to be mindful of character limits, so all I'll say is: Strap yourselves in!

As ever, credit and thanks go to Kanzenshuu and its contributors - now let's get Re-Reading!

Chapter 39 - “Sign” of Son Goku’s Awakening/Sign of Son Goku’s Awakening
21 August 2018

Spoiler:

15 minutes remain in the Tournament of Power, and the only fighters left are Kefla, Gohan, Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Goku, Vegeta, Android #17, Freeza, and Kame-Sen'nin. Universe 7 has the most fighters, but the bench is sceptical that they will simply try to hold their lead. Gohan and Kefla begin fighting. Kefla flings Gohan and stomps on him, taunting him to go Super Saiyan. Gohan says he doesn't even need to any more, and is resolved to continue growing as an Earthling, and kicks her away. The pair continue a ferocious fight. Piccolo notes that Gohan has become even stronger than ever during the Tournament. Even Goku's impressed. He turns his attention back to Jiren, who says nothing will change the end result. Meanwhile, Vegeta and Toppo knock each other around, neither having an obvious advantage, but both starting to tire. Android #17 and Kame-Sen'nin square off against Dyspo and Kahseral, as the 'weakest' of Universe 11's fighters. Finally, Freeza stands off to one side, and recovers some stamina. Beerus is annoyed when he notices this, but Whis says it's a valid strategy. Beerus turns his attention to Champa, to berate him for cheating with the Potara, but he gets no reply - the fight between Kefla and Gohan is about to end. The pair are both in a bad way; Kefla sees there was nothing she could've done, and Champa voices his appreciation to Vados. Gohan and Kefla agree to end it, and knock each other out-of-bounds with a vicious final punch. Beerus commends Gohan - Universe 6 is eliminated. Champa bids farewell to Beerus in characteristic fashion, and is erased with his Universe.

Goku, meanwhile, continues his futile assault on Jiren, but none of it works and he gets decked. Jiren is starting to lose patience - if Goku has nothing else, he should just end it. Goku says there's still a wall to overcome, and stakes it all on a last-ditch power-up. Whis explains that he's drawing on reserves to get a temporary boost, even if it damages him - Tenshinhan and Kuririn infer that this is similar to Kaio-Ken. But will it work..? Goku lands a set of powerhouse hits on Jiren...but it does nothing! Jiren tells him that power gained by destroying the body can't necessarily be wielded properly, and casually bats him away. Whis wonders whether Jiren isn't just too much of an obstacle for Goku at this stage...meanwhile, the Elder Kaioshin notices that Roshi is about to win his fight. Down on the stage, Kahseral doesn't understand. He can see Roshi's power is low, but can't hit him - why not?? Kame Sen'nin replies he isn't seeing the truth of it. Kahseral attacks, but Roshi catches his hands, swiftly knocks him off his feet, and gently wafts him off the stage, and out-of-bounds.

Suddenly, Goku skids over to near where Roshi is, totally at a loss about how to beat Jiren - his power is endless. Roshi chides him for struggling, and asks him what strength means to him. Goku wonders if he needs some kind of greater power himself, but Roshi shuts that down, telling him that this is no way to look at it. Martial Arts is about conquering oneself, not one's opponent. He tells Goku to remember what all his masters taught him up till now - Goku realises that the quality of his movement is the key. Roshi says he'll give him one last lesson - how to move well. Roshi charges Jiren! Jiren attacks, but Roshi dodges! The pair exchange attacks, but astonishingly, Roshi is able to dodge Jiren! Beerus thinks he recognises those moves, and Whis agrees there's a resemblance - Jiren then manages to graze Roshi a couple of times - and Whis concludes that it's still a 'far cry' from "that" technique. But even so, it's similar. Goku can't even fathom that Roshi was moving like that. Roshi says he still has a way to go, and tells Goku to look into his heart - he'll find the answer there. He charges once more at Jiren, but Jiren is ready this time, and promptly knocks Roshi out-of-bounds. Beerus notes that was a matter of time, but Whis points out that Roshi's contribution has been much greater than merely lasting this long - a change has come over Son Goku...

Jiren scoffs that Goku still has lessons left to learn - he'll never be perfected like that. Goku replies he doesn't want to be; he always wants to aim higher. Jiren blasts Goku away, but Goku continues to muse that he became strong thanks to Roshi. Jiren approaches, and prepares a final blow. But Goku says that even now, he's still Son Goku of the Turtle School...and he changes! Jiren strikes...but gets nothing but the ground. Goku's elsewhere, enveloped in an aura! Beerus freaks out - Goku's done "it" before him?! Whis confirms it - Goku has achieved Ultra Instinct. Jiren sees he has arrived at a new state, and tells him he will meet his end that way. Vegeta sees from afar, and is as shocked as everyone else. Jiren and Goku square off for a final clash, and charge...but Goku falls out of Ultra Instinct! Jiren promptly decks him. Whis muses that this wasn't True Ultra Instinct after all, but rather tapping into it. It's not so easily mastered; Goku's struggle has just begun. Jiren warns Goku that a man of such little resolve will never beat him...

Chapter Notes

• Gohan vs. Kefla is noted by the fandom to be, to put it mildly, a missed opportunity - the absence of most of the fight reminded me quite strongly of the Goku vs. ("Majin") Vegeta fight from DB #458, where we see the initial exchange and nothing much else. However, whereas the feel of that fight was meaty and vicious, the fight shown here is balletic, even flouncy. Given the purely instrumental value of Gohan's challenge to, and neutralisation of, Kefla - he says that he's intervening so Goku can focus on Jiren - it's unfortunate that it serves as the suspenseful 'hook' between 超 #38 and 超 #39, as it fades into the background much too quickly. If it had simply been a plot beat sitting squarely within a chapter, I don't think its perfunctoriness would have attracted quite so much comment. While I don't think it should've occupied a whole chapter or anything like that (I have seen this suggested before), I think some more focus could easily have been given it within this chapter without being to the detriment of the whole - even a handful of well-judged extra pages for the collected release could've done a lot to soften this impression. Toyotarou will learn his lesson for the next arc, by putting in a set-piece fight for Gohan vs. OG73-I in 超 #54.

• In other ways, Gohan seems like a uniquely appropriate opponent for Kefla, given what we've seen over the last couple of Chapters, in that both stand for the radical growth of Saiyan power over the course of the Tournament (Kale's ki has spiked radically and dramatically several times in 超 #37 and 超 #38, whereas Piccolo mentions that Gohan has somehow become "stronger than ever during this fight"), and both are characterised by their outstanding potential (Caulifla mentions her prodigy status as an established fact in 超 #37, whereas Gohan's aberrant innate talent has been his defining characteristic since DB #199). But in other ways, Gohan differs from Kefla and her constituent parties in ways that are thrown into sharp relief - his comment that he has chosen to evolve as an Earthling instead of relying on Saiyan transformations contrasts interestingly with two new Super Saiyans who still consider the transformation "shocking" and impressive.

• Android #17 and Roshi take on Dyspo and Kahseral as the "weakest contenders left". Really, #17 is the perfect opponent for the super-speedster Dyspo, as he can't feel pain and will never run low on stamina (as established in DB #368, among other places), and, sure enough, Dyspo will state in 超 #40 that #17 has worn him down.

• Favourite art: Toyotarou is good at drawing people getting punched in the face very hard - an essential skill in Dragon Ball, to be sure, which he gets to exercise a couple of times in this Chapter: first is the Gohan/Kefla double-K.O. punch, and then there's the panel with Jiren landing one on Goku at the end of the Chapter - in both pieces (particularly the latter), you can really feel the impact. I'm also fond of the pseudo-'Kaio-Ken' scene - it has a certain rawness about it that I appreciate - and the panel where Ultra Instinct first activates.

• Goku tries some new stuff against Jiren, serving only to bore him some more. It's probably worth giving a listing of what Goku's tried against Jiren so far, with results in brackets:
  • Head-on assault (repulsed before he entered range)
  • Shunkan Idou sneak attack (blocked)
  • Rapid flurry multidirectional assaults (blocked)
  • Close-range ki blast, possibly a Kamehameha (no effect)
  • Joint offensive with Hit (blocked)
  • Rapid volley of ki blasts (no effect)
  • Use of aforementioned blasts as a smokescreen for an attack (blocked)
  • "Kaio-Ken" assault (no effect)
  I've seen criticism of Goku's approach here from the fandom, principally for its lack of imaginativeness. To investigate the validity of this critique, I figured I'd have a look at Goku's approach from another fight in the original run - I picked his fight against Perfect Cell (DB #397-402) as a relatively substantial fight in a similar setting against someone who outclasses him. Here's what came up:
  • Head-on assault
  • Kamehameha as a feint for an attack
  • Brief flurry assault (Cell lets Goku hit him)
  • Shunkan Idou sneak attack
  • Shunkan Idou Kamehameha
  • Straightforward exchange of blows
  • Rapid Volley of ki blasts
  To be honest, these seem pretty comparable. It's worth noting that Cell condescends to Goku for his own enjoyment, but Jiren doesn't bother with that, which exposes Goku more than would perhaps otherwise be the case.

• Tenshinhan asks if what Goku tries against Jiren is "the same principle as Kaio-Ken" - I guess this is the narrative's way of saying that this is what Goku is basically doing; if so, then this gives us an additional detail as to how the principles of Kaio-Ken itself work. Whis calls this "drawing deep from his reserves for a temporary boost" - Goku originally described the Kaio-Ken in DB #227: "You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…” Daizenshuu #7 says pretty much the same. I'm tempted by the comparison with Kaio-Ken to think of Goku's boost as a doubling of his power, but that's just me.

• More interesting and significant is when Jiren no-sells it and tells Goku that "Power gained by destroying your body can't necessarily be wielded properly", which has ramifications for both Super and the original series - with regard to the latter, I'm reminded of comparisons between the Kaio-Ken x3 Goku-Vegeta fight (DB #230-231 is the relevant bit) and the Vegeta-Kiwi 'fight' (DB #249), as you technically have equivalent Battle Powers opposing each other (Kaio-Ken x3 Goku 24,000/Vegeta 18,000; Vegeta 24,000/Kiwi 18,000), but with radically different outcomes - Vegeta killed Kiwi in 3 attacks, whereas Goku proved unable to put Vegeta down. While there may well be both a general battle effectiveness issue and a yūki problem for Kiwi in that encounter, we might also infer from Jiren's statement that since Goku was wielding power beyond his limits and it was damaging him to do it, he wouldn't have been able to do it as effectively as Vegeta did later, actually possessing that power naturally and without harm, and so able to wield it properly. I infer that even though Goku had an identical Battle Power, he literally wouldn't have been able to hit as hard with his attacks as Vegeta does with Kiwi. This conclusion also seems to track for Goku's use of Kaio-Ken x20 against Freeza in DB #313, answering Kuririn's (and the fandom's) confusion that it didn't do anything despite Official Battle Powers and calculations combining to establish that they'd be at strictly equal levels here. As Goku concludes in DB #314, it establishes that Freeza really is only using half his real power (so won't really be hurt much by something on, or even somewhat above, that level), but we now also have the additional consideration that Goku isn't actually wielding a power of 60,000,000 to its true extent, hence why he manages nothing more than to hurt Freeza by scorching his hand, when in theory the Kamehameha "should've packed a huge punch".

• The other important ramification of Jiren's statement is for Dragon Ball Super, as this is the beginning of the turn from Dragon Ball's favoured 'escalation of power' dynamic to a focus on wielding power and making the best use of it. This has the advantage of being both something that Dragon Ball has addressed before (see, for instance, Mr. Popo's critique of Goku's performance in DB #163-164), but also an idea it hasn't truly focused on for a long time, buried as it is under the aforementioned escalation of sheer power for the ensuing 350ish chapters. This allows Super to take this theme, within the general arc theme of 'True Strength', and make it the hallmark of the series going forward.

• To use Roshi, the weakest (and arguably wisest) member of the team, to portend this change is incredibly effective, to my mind. I've thought about this for a long time since 超 #39 was first published and I want to say that, as a 'moment', the dozen pages from Roshi beating Kahseral to getting eliminated by Jiren is probably the most important moment of the series to date (much more important even than the final consummation of Ultra Instinct in 超 #64), and it's one that I grow to love ever more each time I re-read it. The encounter has some fun references, visual and conceptual, but it also does a very considerable amount of work in telling us what Ultra Instinct is really all about:
  • Firstly, the visual references - Roshi catches Kahseral's attack in a manner deliberately reminiscent of how he does it with Tenshinhan at the 22nd Budokai, in DB #123; a doubly appropriate reference since Tenshinhan taunts Roshi by saying "You can't even see my hands, can you?!", and as we'll find out (and as 超 #57 will take a moment to re-emphasise), nowadays he wouldn't even need to see them. Additionally, he eliminates Kahseral by gently wafting him off the stage, which is a direct reference to his elimination of Yamcha at the 21st Budokai, in DB #37 - appropriately again, this is a battle where he chides his opponent on the grounds that "you still waste so much excess movement".
  • There's a flurry of conceptual references and quotes, starting with Kame-Sen'nin restating his old lesson from DB #32, "We don't master martial arts to win fights. We do it to conquer ourselves"; Goku's been following this lesson, of course, but he's been pressed by the aforementioned escalation of strength in his foes for a long time now, and "plain old fighting strength" has been the way out - Roshi's references to Vegeta and Freeza in particular are apposite. But he tells Goku to consider the teachings of his masters, which give us another round of quotes - Karin's quote on wasted movement is from DB #89; Popo's quote on movement is from DB #164 (rendered there as "You must crouch quiet as the sky--and strike quicker than lightning"); Kaio's quote was harder to source, as the Viz translations evoke two very different implications, but I think it comes from DB #211 (rendered originally as "You have to be the best!!! The greatest fighter in the Universe!!! Physically!!! Mentally!!! In every way!!!", but here as "Wanna be the best in the Universe? Then you gotta train not just your body, but also your spirit!" - I'd be interested to learn if the original Japanese is identical between these two statements, since the differences in English rendering are pretty significant); finally, there's Whis's statement that each part of the body but be allowed to judge and act on its own, which comes from Revival of F, and has a manga counterpart in Promo issue #2. Finally, Roshi asks Goku if he eats well, rests well, plays well, and learns well, before giving him "One last lesson from the Turtle School" on how to move well - this is a direct reference to DB #31, in which he summarises his "way". I love the combination of established concepts and references that comes through to help build this new thing up, as the apotheosis of what Goku's been striving towards all this time; I also love that Roshi's true significance in the Tournament of Power is not to be a combatant or simply a wielder of unusual techniques (of a Tenshinhan-esque stripe), but to be what he's always been in Dragon Ball - a teacher.
  • Roshi's wielding of a method that has "a strong resemblance" to, but is "a far cry" from Ultra Instinct, nevertheless seems to me to give a strong indication of what the true technique is all about, both by demonstration of its principles and by contradistinction from what it isn't about. I don't tend to make comparisons with the anime in this thread, partly because I think they're not relevant, but for Ultra Instinct, its anime depiction has led a lot of the fandom to run with the idea (I see it a lot - way, way too much) that Ultra Instinct is just a ki-boosting transformation of the sort we've seen umpteen times before in Dragon Ball, albeit the most powerful one yet. The manga is emphatically not doing this, but is treating the technique as a means of power projection by the perfectibility of the quality of the user's movement:
    • When Roshi takes out Kahseral, his opponent says, "Every indication points to your power level being as low as dirt, so why can't I hit you...?" He seems to have an in-built scouter, and we don't get any sense that Roshi's playing with/radically boosting his power level here in the way of Goku with the Ginyu Force (DB #280-281). This is supported by his decisive rejection of Goku's fixation on "plain old fighting strength", saying "that's no way to measure things", and this is also supported by Goku literally giving himself a bigger ki and getting nowhere with it against Jiren just a few pages back. So he's not presented as altering his power in any conventional fashion. It isn't about making a bigger, more powerful ki.
    • However, he is getting "stronger" in some sense. Apart from this being made as plain as can be by the story, where the conventionally weakest fighter on the field proves capable of standing up to the most powerful right now, Roshi will get another chance to use the technique in 超 #57 against Miza, Iwaza and Kikaza, and Miza will say "I never ran across someone who got stronger with their eyes covered!!" If his ki isn't changing, but he is getting 'stronger', then the most natural interpretation is that the application of his strength has improved dramatically. In 'power projection' terms, then, Roshi is stronger than he's ever been.
    • These ideas will be clearly developed in real Ultra Instinct, both at the Omen and True stages, when Goku demonstrates them in 超 #41, 超 #59-60 and 超 #64-65: his movement most obviously resembles Roshi's in his continual dodging of attacks and in using the "heightened agility" that Moro will note, but it will also lend better attacking power through the sharpness of his strikes (see, for instance, Goku's hit on Moro in 超 #64, which is so sharp it sends shockwaves round and round the World) and even increased durability - in Omen, through moving in such a way that he's capable of "avoiding real damage", even when Jiren actually whacks him hard, but in True Ultra Instinct by automatically altering his personal durability enough to break Moro's hand in 超 #65; however, attempts to juice up the technique with the conventional explosions of ki, such as he attempts at various points when using Omen against Moro in 超 #60 - completely fail because, as Merus puts it, "he can't make the most of Ultra Instinct's strength" when he relies on conventional power. In practical terms, the honing and wielding of the technique is what itself gives Goku all he needs to be almost invincible.
    • As something of an aside, this moment will also foreshadow the requirement of emotional control when Roshi tells Goku to look into his heart, before consigning himself to defeat - this instance, the apparent 'death' of Android #17 in 超 #40, and the erasure of Merus in 超 #63, will all serve as "a jarring shock" to Goku's emotions (interestingly, he will also have the same physical stance in each instance of reaction to these shocks, which in the latter was erroneously taken by part of the fandom to reference his original SSj transformation), which he must attain self-mastery of to realise the technique in each instance.
    • I would therefore assert that this emphasis on the wielding of the technique is serving to (at least partially) sever the link between strength and ki power on which Dragon Ball has been established for so long. That's not to say, though, that power as conventionally construed is totally irrelevant to Ultra Instinct (Goku loses Ultra Instinct when Moro sucks his ki away in 超 #66, and he expresses frustration that he doesn't have enough Divine Power to do what Merus did), but it is strongly relativised (Even though Goku says he doesn't have enough power in 超 #66, the same chapter shows us that a simple aggregation of ki - even Vegeta's God ki, depleted though it is - isn't enough to re-spark the technique for Goku, and Bulma underscores that the type of ki is important here); entering Ultra Instinct proper on its own seems more akin to entering a tier of Divinely-constituted power, rather than having some sort of transformation multiplier (as indicated by Moro in 超 #65 - when he seizes Ultra Instinct for himself, he says he and Goku are "evenly matched" in ability; if ki size were relevant and affected here, Moro would again be far superior to Goku due to his superior original power). Simply put, although Dragon Ball has been (and always will be) about the path to power, Ultra Instinct shows us something fundamentally different.
  Ultimately, this serves as the true turn of what Dragon Ball Super is all about, using the theme of True Strength. That it is given us by Goku's oldest, (conventionally) weakest master to remind Goku of what he's always known, and to put him on the road to overcoming Jiren's outrageous conventional power with a projection of his own power, in a moment that combines Dragon Ball's history and an actually emotional sign-off of "Look into your heart, Goku. You'll find the answer in there", as a final lesson and gift, is a brilliant thing that will always be a high point for me - it's one of my favourite sequences, not just in Dragon Ball Super, but Dragon Ball overall.

• It's also worth linking all of this back to the various points at which Roshi's popped up in the Tournament of Power so far, as I recall his confidence eliciting hearty lulz from a fandom that interpreted things in the same way that the characters 'in-Universe' did (i.e., by "plain old fighting strength"), which makes this a great switch-up in itself, but also I get the feeling that not only might Roshi have made good on his "bluff" to give Frost a bad time of things in 超 #34 and his objection to Goku's intervention makes sense (as does his statement that he and Gohan will be enough to take care of the Pride Troopers in 超 #37), but that we're also meant to read back that he lasted this long by using this technique throughout the Tournament, allowing him to hang around in the mix without getting beaten by any of the other fighters, all of whom would have been stronger than him in the conventional sense. I enjoy that little implication.

• Following this moment up immediately, Goku states he doesn't want to achieve perfection, but always simply to aim for something higher - along with being completely characteristic, it has interesting possible implications going forward, as he seems to have a certain reticence when he finally achieves the True state of Ultra Instinct in 超 #64, as Moro's jibes that Goku must think himself a God appear to land and give Goku pause; this seems to give way to an emphasis on training in order to have and wield greater power in 超 #65, as Goku gives Moro a (much-maligned) opportunity to take a step towards this truth, whereas Moro attempts to usurp the power with none of the requisite effort to improve himself, and comes to grief. But perhaps, with no more mountains to climb, Goku may choose to forego the technique itself, in favour of retraining from the basics..? Or else, perhaps we'll learn that there are other facets of Divine Power that Goku can push himself in..? It's clear that, even with Ultra Instinct properly wielded in 超 #64, by 超 #66 it's still clear that something is keeping characters like Merus and Whis out ahead of Goku - so there may still be something worth striving for...

• Goku mentioning that he was a student "who never listened" has met with objection, but it is presumably a reference to Roshi repeating some of his oldest lessons here; of course, Goku has readily confessed in the past that he doesn't understand Roshi's teachings when they're at their most impressively speechifying - notably, Roshi's first lesson on Martial Arts in DB #30, of which Goku understands "Not a word", and another such discourse in DB #112, which elicits a "I didn't really get all that...but it sounds fun!". Of course, Goku is also a distinguished fighter in his own right who has tirelessly worked to improve himself and overcome his weaknesses, so I understand the objection, but there's also a certain truth to his own reflections.

• Beerus notes that Goku "pulled off Ultra Instinct before me", which indicates that, although he could move without thinking in 超 #28, Beerus has not yet even tapped into the Omen stage of the technique by this point. I'd estimate he is likely to be perhaps further along than Kame-Sen'nin in attaining to the true technique (and probably because he has Divine Power himself, which as of 超 #66 seems to be key), but that's about all. Beerus is, after all, naturally lazy.

• The running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
  • Kale: 17 eliminations (Zirloin, Zarbuto, and Rabanra of Universe 2, Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, and Nigrisshi of Universe 3, Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, and Darcoli of Universe 4, Obuni of Universe 10, Magetta, Saonel and Pirina of Universe 6); Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Android #17: 6 eliminations (Murisarm, Napapa, Zium, and Mechiorp of Universe 10, Botamo of Universe 6, Damon of Universe 4); Kefla: 6 eliminations (Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol of Universe 11, and Son Gohan of Universe 7); Gamisaras: 6* eliminations (Android #18 of Universe 7, Ribrianne, Rozie, and Kakunsa of Universe 2, Murichim and Jilcol of Universe 10); Freeza: 5 eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Son Gohan: 2 eliminations (Caulifla and Kale of Universe 6); Piccolo: 2 eliminations (Jirasen of Universe 10, Gamisaras of Universe 4); Vegeta: 2 eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Jiren: 2 eliminations (Hit of Universe 6 and Kame-Sen'nin of Universe 7); Kame-Sen'nin: 1 elimination (Kahseral of Universe 11); Cabbe: 1 elimination (The Preecho of Universe 3); Damon: 1* elimination (Piccolo of Universe 7). (*Note: some of the eliminations credited to Gamisaras may properly be attributed to Damon).
  • The remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe are as follows:
    Universe 2: 0 (Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Prum, Jimeze, Hermila, Vikal)
    Universe 3: 0 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, Nigrisshi, Katoplesa, Narirama, Viara, The Preecho)
    Universe 4: 0 (Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, Damon, Gamisaras, Darcoli, Monna, Nink, Majora, Kyawei)
    Universe 6: 0 (Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Hit, Frost, Botamo, Dr. Rota)
    Universe 7: 4 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Android #17, Son Gohan, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Android #18, Piccolo)
    Universe 9: 0 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
    Universe 10: 0 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
    Universe 11: 3 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)

Chapter 40 - Jiren vs Universe 7/Jiren vs. Universe 7
21 September 2018

Spoiler:

As Goku is laid out from Jiren's punch, Whis says this was only the sign of Ultra Instinct - Beerus is annoyed at Goku for screwing up again. Vegeta is particularly affected, with a building rage that Goku's got the jump on him again, pushing at new frontiers while he struggles...Toppo, meanwhile, moves up behind him and goes for an attack -- until Vegeta explodes with rage!! This catches everyone's attention, and the force of it blows Toppo clean out of the ring - he lands, exhausted, on a piece of floating debris. But Vegeta's whole aura has changed, his battle damage healed - he charges in at Jiren, with a vicious knee to the face. As everyone looks on in astonishment, Vegeta follows up with a series of attacks that knock Jiren around. But Jiren lands without too much trouble. He acknowledges Vegeta by name, and asks if he was hiding his strength before. Vegeta says Saiyans evolve as they fight. Jiren asks if Vegeta is looking to acquire Ultra Instinct, and Vegeta says he's given up on that - he's a prodigy who achieved his power by solo training, and trying to learn Ultra Instinct, he concludes, doesn't suit him. He attacks Jiren again, and while he blocks Vegeta's attacks, he starts to lose ground...

Whis agrees that Ultra Instinct doesn't suit Vegeta - his own evolution would suit him better. As he continues to put on the pressure, Vegeta asks Jiren how often he's actually put everything on the line and risked it all? Vegeta's a man who's done just that. He manages to break Jiren's guard and land a kick, and tells him that he's not like the Earthlings - he's fought hundreds of real battles, and been pushed to the edge time and again - he shouldn't be looked down on. Jiren considers this, and commends Vegeta for fighting back so hard...and then lands a heavy elbow to the back of Vegeta's head. Vegeta shouldn't imagine for a second that he can win. Vegeta tries to fight back, but gets beaten down hard. Jiren adds that he always puts everything on the line in his fights, so he wastes no movement - that's how his master taught him. It's clear that even Vegeta's newfound strength is nothing to Jiren. Toppo watches from afar, frustrated that they had to rely on Jiren after all...Freeza appears next to him! He calls him pathetic for entrusting the fate of the Universe to another, and amuses himself by kicking around the weakened Toppo a bit. They hop between debris fragments as he does so. Dyspo notices this and leaps straight out to save Toppo, as he dangles from a fragment. Freeza hops back to the main stage and, pleased to have lured out more prey, destroys the debris between the pair and the stage, stranding them!

Toppo tells Dyspo to leap back to the stage on his own, but Dyspo's too tired after tangling with #17. Freeza toys with them, chipping away at the debris they're standing on, but #17 tells him to get it over with already. Dyspo swallows his pride, and calls to Jiren asking for help. Jiren's about to knock Vegeta off, but Goku uses the distraction to grab Vegeta and escape with Shunkan Idou. Jiren moves over to #17 and Freeza, and hits them away. But when it comes to helping Dyspo and Toppo, he hesitates, and then tells them he'll deal with it himself - he tells them to observe from the bench. As they are stunned by this, the debris gives way, and they fall. Jiren just thinks they're in the way - Belmod says there's no reason to panic yet, since Jiren's still there. Freeza calls him cocky for going it alone, but Jiren is more surprised that Freeza's still around. Freeza laughs, shows Jiren his Golden Form, and attacks. Beerus wonders if Freeza can do anything; Whis says not, but notes that Freeza chooses to fight, even knowing that...It quickly becomes clear that Freeza is just buying time, so Jiren decides to shut it down quick, and blasts at Freeza - he dodges, but Jiren appears behind him, preparing to knock him out - but #17 takes the hit!

Jiren manages to force his way through #17's guard, propelling the two away and out-of-bounds, but #17 manages to right himself, grab Freeza, and use a ki blast to manoeuvre them to a floating piece of debris. #17 asks Freeza to let him take the lead with another tactic, and he moves over to Jiren alone. He initiates an exchange, but is easily bested. He calls to the stands, and asks Kuririn and #18 to look after his kids. Kuririn gets a sense of foreboding, but #18 casually agrees - she's "used to handling wild children". #17 chuckles, and moves back to Jiren. He asks what Jiren's after - survival, or a wish? Jiren wants both. #17 agrees, but is about to give up on the latter. Jiren says he won't get either, and #17 says he can't let it all be destroyed, as energy starts to appear around him - then, in a flash of light, he explodes, taking out half the stage!! Everyone is shocked, even The Grand Priest. And it didn't even knock Jiren off! The Grand Priest confers with the Zenos - they hadn't prepared for this - but they conclude that Universe 7 won't be penalised, and the Tournament will continue! Jiren tells Goku and Vegeta that he isn't happy that their ally is dead - he'd prefer to end this without further unpleasantness...Goku considers, and says it was harsh for #17 to go like this, since he turned out good - and re-enters Ultra Instinct! He says he has to keep growing...as Jiren finally manifests an aura - and smirks!

Chapter Notes

• Beerus is annoyed that Goku's screwed up - there's a running motif of people getting annoyed at Goku for being an idiot and 'screwing up'. Beerus and Vegeta call Goku an idiot for losing to Frost in 超 #10, and Beerus does it again (more loudly) when Goku throws the fight against Hit in 超 #13. Vegeta is annoyed that Goku "screwed up" with the talisman for the Mafuba in 超 #22, and again calls him an idiot for flinching from using Hakai when Zamas takes Mai as a hostage in 超 #25; Beerus calls him an idiot in 超 #27 for going to see Zeno despite all warnings, and again in 超 #28 for getting the whole 'tournament' thing started, and yet again for losing to Toppo in 超 #29, and once more for almost getting eliminated by Jiren in 超 #35. This is the latest in a string of such criticisms, and won't be the last - check out 超 #66 for the latest aggravated statement from Vegeta that Goku's "screwed up"...

• Vegeta gets another massive rage boost, a la his SSj2 rage boost from 超 #3. This time, though, it alters the nature of the transformation into an 'evolved' version. Saiyans "evolving as they fight" has been presaged by a Toriyama comment, where he says that Saiyans rapidly increase in strength the longer they fight against stronger opponents, though one is hard-pressed to find a clear-cut case of this in the original series - though in DB #257, Vegeta does say to Dodoria "The more we battle...the stronger we Saiyans grow!! And the stronger the opponent...the more power we gain!!", which might be pressed to support this. Anyway, with this "evolved" version of SSjB, the only visible change is to the aura, though apparently he's considerably stronger now. I don't feel particularly bothered by the transformation as such, but it is worthy of note as the beginning of the practical sundering of Vegeta's path to power from Goku's, after he'd said "I'm sick of following after him" in 超 #28: Vegeta identifies this as the moment he's given up on attaining to Ultra Instinct; I guess as a differentiation from Goku, it makes sense - Goku will push for the ultimate Martial Arts technique, whereas Vegeta will push the limits of Saiyan power to the utmost. I'm pleased to see that Vegeta has stuck with this form, and with transformations generally, demonstrating SSjB^e against Moro in 超 #45 and 超 #61, alongside the polishing of his power with Spirit Control. I hope the difference of approach between the two fighters continues - Vegeta the warrior, and Son Goku the martial artist.

• Vegeta quickly goes about drawing that distinction himself, saying his power is forged by solo training and by having fought thousands of battles across the Cosmos. While it's interesting enough that he doesn't acknowledge any teacher (not even his father), I think it's more interesting to look at where Vegeta is on his personal trajectory of how he regards those times: back in DB #459, he says, "I wanted to be the way I used to be!!!! The ruthless and cold-blooded Saiyan!! (...) I hated how your influence was making me softer...less aggressive"; it was a time he treated with nostalgia and in contradistinction to his current position, a thing to be returned to in terms of behaviour. Here, in his talk with Jiren, he seems to take his past and his present as more 'of a piece' - he put it all on the line and found power through getting "pushed to the edge" in his thousands of battles, and this tendency to 'put his life on the line' and "risk it all" is just the way he approaches every battle. Compare with the way he looks at himself in 超 #45 and 超 #61, he characterises those times as doing "untold harm" to others like the Namekians, and no doubt this is at the base of his statement that "Naturally I'm bound for Hell. At the end of the day, I'm a villain", even as he's resolved to "atone for the sins of his past" - so, it seems that Vegeta's feelings about himself have swung from one dichotomy (was better-now worse), through identity of who he was and is (as in this chapter), moving through to another sort of dichotomy (was worse-trying better, though still not what he wants to be). These things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive (except perhaps what he wants to be, which has changed in important ways), but I think it's interesting to see the difference of emphasis.

• There's also a beat where individualistic pride shines through, and not just from Vegeta, who insists on his own approach to power; this also comes from Jiren, who makes clear his personal superiority (and several more times after this, particularly in 超 #41-42), from Toppo, who expresses his frustration that he and his Pride Troopers needed Jiren in the end after all - interesting to see that he bridles at this idea, despite the fact that Jiren himself is a Pride Trooper - and from Freeza, who mocks Toppo for entrusting things to someone else. This seems to be the low point for the 'Teamwork' theme running through the arc, as Toppo muses on the failings of the Pride Troopers and the confrontation becomes a matter of single combat between rival views of 'True Strength' (or even the same view espoused by opponents - Jiren does not deny the validity of Vegeta's perspective; he just makes clear that he does it better); but in hindsight, this is also about to sow the seeds of teamwork actually being the key to victory, as Freeza and Android #17 combine to produce the winning strategy.

• I really enjoy the sequence where Freeza punts Toppo out, draws Dyspo to save him (again), and exploits the teamworking dynamic between the pair by marooning them - it feels like a very natural progression, but also a clever way of resolving it; it also feels like a very characteristic move for Freeza, as does his immediate "bad taste" impluse to toy with his helpless opponents - admittedly, the artwork only sometimes works with the narrative, as other times the pair seem close enough to the arena that their inability to return alone, even tired out, stretches credibility (they only really seem obviously too far away when the 'shot' looks over from where Toppo and Dyspo are, and quite rarely from the perspective of the main arena when we see that), which is a bit unfortunate; still, it doesn't really spoil the enjoyment of that sequence, for me.

• I really enjoy Jiren's hesitation, and eventual refusal, to help his teammates. For someone who says very little, the action speaks volumes in context. His unyielding solitariness is of course again on display here, but it's clear from Toppo's earlier statement that Jiren and the other Pride Troopers seem to have an 'understanding' on how they regard each other, and it's not really as members of the same team, whatever their uniforms may indicate. I believe I've already mentioned this, but Jiren never addresses any of his teammates by name, at any point (not even now - he just calls them "You two"), and demurs when they offer to work as a team (as in 超 #35); it's unsurprising that he should also demur now when they're looking for his help. I also mentioned above that it's interesting that the Pride Troopers apologise when asking for their teammate's help (Kahseral apologises for asking for help against Kefla, and Dyspo apologises now) - Dyspo phrases it clearly enough when eliminated - "In Jiren's eyes, we were just getting in his way..." But if I may be permitted to indulge a pet theory (I mean, why change my habits now?), I think Dyspo's statement is also true in a way he doesn't realise. The Pride Troopers are 'in Jiren's way' in the sense that he doesn't need them to win, for sure, but they're also in the way of him getting his wish. I get the feeling that, since the only reason Jiren finally consented to participate in the Tournament was in the hope of getting his wish (and Belmod made very clear that this would be a driving motivation for Jiren, to the extent that it would even undercut his otherwise perfect virtuousness, in 超 #30), if he's not the only member of Universe 11 still standing, he may not get the wish he wants - it may go to a teammate; but as Jiren says in 超 #41, "I cannot allow myself to lose. I will become the perfect force for justice my master sought" (and he blames himself for Gicchin's death in the first place, as Belmod notes in 超 #42), it seems to me that Jiren's desire - his driving need - to have this "selfish wish" granted has led him not just to avoid teamwork here (which would be his default tendency anyway), but now to actively undermine his team by ensuring that he's the only one left, and so the one who will get the wish in the end - I also see this in his exchange with Android #'17 at the end of this chapter, where he hesitates when asked if he's after survival of his Universe, or having a wish granted. It seems that, by dangling the wish in front of Jiren to get him to participate at the expense of the broader team and thereby indulge his worst traits, so he ends up acting in a way that is incongruous with the kind of virtuousness that was on display in 超 #30, Belmod ends up dooming Universe 11.

• Am I meant to get the feeling that Freeza mentioning an "ultimate battle" is a reference to the title of the famous music track from the anime? To be honest, though I love the track (particularly the instrumental-only version), it's certainly not the track that plays in my head right now at this point in the manga. Sometimes I toy with the idea of doing a thread that invites members to 'score' various chapters of the Dragon Ball Super manga according to their preference, using existing tracks from the Dragon Ball franchise as a whole. The 'Ultra Instinct' moments in the manga tend, to my mind, to fit better with 'The Final Death Match' and 'Fierce Battle Against a Mighty Foe', rather than 'Ultimate Battle'.

• I do like the idea of Freeza trying to buy time even when it looks like he's trying to fight straightforwardly - to do the latter in an apparently hopeless situation isn't necessarily characteristic of Freeza, but to have an ulterior motive when doing so surely is (as he says in 超 #42, "we prefer strategy over reckless brawling"). Of course, the idea that even a self-regarding scumbag like Freeza might look beyond his own immediate interest for the 'greater good' catches Android #17's notice, which leads them to the unlikely winning strategy.

• A couple of little Anime nods here, I fancy - we finally get an "Owari da" ("It's over") from Jiren (the only one in the manga, I think, but virtually a catchphrase in the anime) as he prepares to eliminate Freeza. When he manages to follow through and force his way through Android #17's guard, this may just be a simple shove, but the panel seems to focus on his glare somehow, which was always something I really enjoyed about Jiren's depiction in the Anime - the idea that his glare itself had power to do stuff really helped sell the idea that he was just this wall of massive power, for me, so I like to read this panel that way.

• I do like the idea that the originally nihilistic Android #17, with the crassly material wish, gives up on his wish because he knows the survival of those he cares about is more important. Both he and Jiren mirror each other in having declared that to be erased would be just "our fate"; while #17 did this from seemingly not caring, only to prioritise his love for his family now in saying "I can't let it all be lost" and ostensibly leaving their care to others, Jiren has moved from asserting that he cares about his Universe too much to avoid guarding its peace, but is now clinging ever more tightly to his own wish at the expense of everything else, as will become clearer over the next two chapters. Finally, Android #17 will actually get his shot at a wish by "giving up on" it here (even though it's a ruse), but won't wish for his original desire, but will instead restore the Universes. I find this to be an interesting contrast between the two, given the attitude they both start out with.

• Favourite art: I think the panels with #17's 'self-destruction' and the aftermath are really nicely done. There are some other nice scenes as well, such as Vegeta's fight with Jiren, which has some very pretty panels indeed, and also the momentum of the sequencing in the Toppo-Freeza-Dyspo exchange. I think the quality of this Chapter is among the highest so far, artistically.

• The fact that 'self-destruction' is a ruse cooked up by #17 is pretty interesting, given the connection between Kuririn's wish from DB #418, #17's Humanity, and his resolve to save his Universe. While Kuririn has forgotten (presumably due to the drama of the situation) that #17 doesn't have the bomb in his chest any more, neither #17 nor #18 have - and it's what has "served as the trigger" for #17 to "regain his Humanity" (as Dende put it back in 超 #31) and "live my life freely" (as #18 puts it, also in 超 #31). It's his motivation for being there at all, to repay the debt he owes Kuririn, so in some way the presence/absence of that bomb serves as a nice way of tying up what #17's gained and what he ultimately cares about, and it very fittingly nets him the win, in the end.

• The running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
  • Kale: 17 eliminations (Zirloin, Zarbuto, and Rabanra of Universe 2, Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, and Nigrisshi of Universe 3, Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, and Darcoli of Universe 4, Obuni of Universe 10, Magetta, Saonel and Pirina of Universe 6); Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Freeza: 7 eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9, Dyspo and Toppo of Universe 11); Android #17: 6 eliminations (Murisarm, Napapa, Zium, and Mechiorp of Universe 10, Botamo of Universe 6, Damon of Universe 4); Kefla: 6 eliminations (Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol of Universe 11, and Son Gohan of Universe 7); Gamisaras: 6* eliminations (Android #18 of Universe 7, Ribrianne, Rozie, and Kakunsa of Universe 2, Murichim and Jilcol of Universe 10); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Son Gohan: 2 eliminations (Caulifla and Kale of Universe 6); Piccolo: 2 eliminations (Jirasen of Universe 10, Gamisaras of Universe 4); Vegeta: 2 eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Jiren: 2 eliminations (Hit of Universe 6 and Kame-Sen'nin of Universe 7); Kame-Sen'nin: 1 elimination (Kahseral of Universe 11); Cabbe: 1 elimination (The Preecho of Universe 3); Damon: 1* elimination (Piccolo of Universe 7). (*Note: some of the eliminations credited to Gamisaras may properly be attributed to Damon).
  • The remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe are as follows:
    Universe 2: 0 (Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Prum, Jimeze, Hermila, Vikal)
    Universe 3: 0 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, Nigrisshi, Katoplesa, Narirama, Viara, The Preecho)
    Universe 4: 0 (Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, Damon, Gamisaras, Darcoli, Monna, Nink, Majora, Kyawei)
    Universe 6: 0 (Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Hit, Frost, Botamo, Dr. Rota)
    Universe 7: 4 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Android #17, Son Gohan, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Android #18, Piccolo)
    Universe 9: 0 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
    Universe 10: 0 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
    Universe 11: 1 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)

• I think the last 4 Chapters may well be the strongest in Dragon Ball Super to date.
  The story moves structurally from a pretty small, individual tussle in 超 #37 with Freeza having his idea of fun, and balloons outwards in a sweeping moment of change in 超 #38, which turns the Tournament on its head in a way that allows the dominant themes of Teamwork and True Strength to come once again to the fore. The former will give way to the latter, until the very last pages of 超 #41 where it comes back to the forefront. I think the themes, plotlines, and character work of the arc find their most skilful expression in these Chapters. I had laid down the question earlier of whether the fighting portion of the arc would serve to carry the themes begun in the recruitment portion of the arc - I think by now, that question has been emphatically answered in the affirmative. If anything, the fighting portion is stronger, particularly in these Chapters.
  As a straightforward question of significance, I think 超 #39 is possibly the defining Chapter of Dragon Ball Super (and I say this as we sit on the cusp of 超 #67 being published) - it has loomed over so much that has come after it, as Goku's path to power has revealed itself for the first time, however briefly: all that will remain is for him to walk it. Dragon Ball isn't simply about power-ups anymore, but the wielding of one's power. The depiction of this new truth, as tied up with the history of Dragon Ball and with a respect for the past pointing the way to something new, his handled in a way that I personally regard as inspired. I know it has its critics. I urge them to look again.
  Apart from setting the tone for the rest of Dragon Ball, this part of the arc sets us up for its own climax: the field has been cleared of almost all the distractions (the "jumble", as Toriyama put it), the competing visions have been laid out there with total thematic clarity, and it all comes down to how they're going to be realised in the final Chapter-and-a-half of the arc. After all this, it promises to be good.

Bonus Chapter #4
16 July 2018

Spoiler:

The morning before the Tournament of Power, on Monster Island, Goten and Trunks are installed as temporary Rangers in #17's place (and Maron stays with them), as he departs for Capsule Corp with #18 and Kuririn. They start on their rounds with Maron, and Trunks muses that taking on some poachers is what they need. Goten calls out for them, attracting some unwanted attention in the undergrowth...A Cell Jr. appears, and decks Trunks - then 7 of them appear!

Meanwhile, on the way to Capsule Corp, #17 mentions that he forgot to tell them about the 'pseudo-Cell Jrs.'; they're monsters that look just like the Cell Jrs. Gohan beat - they're just as strong, and there are seven, just like back then. Goten and Trunks try to fight all Seven, but they're crazy strong; the pair are struggling. But then the monsters notice the 'Ranger' armbands the two are wearing, briefly confer...and bow apologetically, before scarpering. #17 explains that he tamed them and trained them to never defy Rangers, so there's nothing to worry about. Kuririn notes that he sees how #17 is so strong. Meanwhile, the baffled children continue their rounds...

Chapter Notes

• I originally thought of moving this Bonus Chapter earlier on, as chronologically it fits somewhere around the later half of 超 #32; however, I figure I'll stick with release order, for this and other Bonus content in the Volume releases. I have no doubt that I will at some point have cause to completely violate this principle, now that I've bothered to state it.

• We get that Capsule Plane 576 again (see the entry for Bonus Chapter #2 for full notes) - must be popular.

• Kuririn notes he's against leaving Maron on Monster Island, which seems sensible - even Goku suggested to #18 that she should leave Maron at Capsule Corp with Bulma, back in 超 #31. Really, while Goten and Trunks get the Ranger armbands, Maron doesn't, so she's pretty lucky not to get attacked.

• The 'MIR' on the shirts #17, Goten, and Trunks wear presumably stands for 'Monster Island Ranger'. We'll see them in this getup again in 超 #66, when they're sent to Monster Island so #17 can participate in the battle against Moro. As Trunks says, "Nobody told us" there was a battle, then or now. The function of Monster Island as like a surrogate playpen for the two is almost a character note for them (in lieu of them, you know, actually getting one so far).

• I do enjoy the panel where the Cell Jr. decks Trunks - the boy has a propensity to get decked (see DB #489, where Super Buu does the same.

• The conceit of this Bonus Chapter - that the Cell Jrs. may have Cell's regenerative powers and have reconstituted themselves as some weird little monsters on Monster Island specifically - makes a kind of sense, I guess, but I don't exactly love it. The whole thing's played for laughs, and resists close reading, I suppose, given that the whole concept of Cell's regeneration is probably Dragon Ball's most famous plothole. For completeness's sake, however, it is worth noting that of the 7 Cell Jrs., Gohan's pattern of destruction was as follows (from DB #408):
  • Smacks the head off of one;
  • Kicks one in half at the waist;
  • Kills one with a blow to the top of the head (the head is not destroyed);
  • Kicks the head off of one;
  • Elbows the top of one's head, destroying it above the nose;
  • Kicks one in half lengthwise, also destroying the head;
  • Smacks the top half off of one, making that half a gooey mess.
  So, of the 7, perhaps 5 lose the cores that should be pivotal to regeneration. Seems that this particular plothole is working overtime.

• SSj Trunks and Goten call the Cell Jrs. "crazy powerful" - #17 specifies that they're "just as strong" as they were back then; if we take the Bonus Chapter seriously, then Goten and Trunks's performance looks pretty good. While the Cell Jrs. seem to be messing around a bit, that's not much different to how they acted back in DB #407, and Goten and Trunks manage to hold off all 7. So, I'd say it's pretty safe to rate SSj Trunks and Goten at the same level as the other SSjs who attended the Cell Games (Vegeta and Future Trunks), at least.

• I do enjoy the denouement of the Bonus Chapter, however - it's endearingly silly to see them stop, apologise shamefacedly, and scamper off like that. I guess that's really what the Chapter's for, rather than seeking to give a serious explanation for why #17 is so strong nowadays, though I suppose it does do that; #17 can get stronger from training, and with his infinite stamina, I guess he could tussle with, and get stronger from fighting, even stronger opponents almost endlessly - assuming they're not going for the kill (or for absorbing him) from the outset...

Well, that's all the tyranny of character limits will let me do, so over to you - what did you get from your Re-Read?

[TobyS]

Yeah I don't think 17 and 18 are unable to feel pain, or be injure, I'm not sure where that's said, they just don't get tired and have infinite stamina.
I think like when Vegeta hit 18 with the big bang attack it still damaged her somewhat even though she tanked it.
If Vegeta had infinite senzu there and kept firing over and over again she'd die.
The stamina thing is enough of an advantage that Piccolo began to worry he wouldn't beat 17.
(Though his final attack on Cell probably would have done the job to 17 who felt the need to dodge it and barely did so it when it wasn't even aimed at him)

I don't think Roshi could swat Frost out, I think he's tougher then Kershal he certainly is in the anime.
After Toppo and maybe Dyspo there's a massive drop off in power I feel in both mediums.
Frost would eventually do the same thing Jiren did, use more of the power he's holding back to not strike a killing blow and swat Roshi out. But Roshi could perhaps last longer against Frost than Jiren.
That's my take.

17 wearing out the faster Dyspo with his tirelessness is a really neat plot point.

That's a cool theory about Jiren sorta wanting to be the last left to get the wish as well as just being an arrogant dick, it makes sense as a viable reading, otherwise you'd think he'd save em cuz "come on what's it to ya, might as well!"

I'm glad they went with the whole "principles of the kaioken" thing and not actually it, a 2-20x confirmed and variable boost fucked up the power scaling in the anime, here it could be double or less, and less repeatable and more costly.

I feel Gokus transforming saiyan body just instinctively transforms to accommodate doing UI, rather then getting a power up from UI itself.

Kind wish SSBE didn't exist, just more bloat on the forms, I'd rather it was just a slight final power/rage boost.

Gohan makes sense to me.

It's been confirmed Gohan still has potential greater then the adults, and while he hasn't had that long he has been training again now.
So his "I want to get stronger as an earthling" thing is a regrettably necessary solution.
It allows him to get stronger, but not leapfrog the older saiyans in the same forms, because they want Goku and Vegeta to be the main characters.
So we can now safely imagine Gohan surpasses them, excluding perhaps UI, at some point between end of super and end of Z, but not during.
It's the compromise between what they want to do, and established power scaling.

Call it a plot hole but what we see on page is:
Cell can regenerate if he has a significant portion of mass/ki
Cell can regenerate even if he's down to just his nucleus, as long as the last bit left IS the nucleus.

So this is true for the Jr's too, they are literally said to be as 'strong' as Cell which didn't make sense at the time, I assume Cell just meant in the same ballpark as the holding back Cell we saw so far... (so they should regen as well)
And yeah this makes 17's growth through "solo" training even more plausible.
Like how Trunks and Goten got strong play fighting with each other as kids, 17 got strong taming and perhaps sparring with these guys.

[The Undying]

My opinions on 39 and 40 haven't changed all that much. They're undoubtedly flawed chapters, but 39 arguably represents some of Toyotaro's best work on all of his DB-related material. You could say it's one of the best chapters in Super. It's all a bit reflective of what I said earlier about preferring the Universe Survival arc as a whole over the Universe 6 Tournament -- sure, there might be lower lows, but the highs are so much drastically higher that you end up wondering if the lows even truly matter in the long run.

I have a few things to add/amend that I (and others) haven't already said:

Gohan's battle against Kefla, despite my misgivings with it being the only point in the arc aside from the U6 Namekians to feel genuinely rushed, is (for me) the most interesting thing the Super franchise ever does with his character. I've made it no secret I'm not particularly a fan of adult Gohan, personally; I think he's too straight-laced for a cast that's largely entertaining and unique because they're not straight-laced people, but I can certainly get behind his interactions in these chapters. Gohan acknowledges he doesn't rely on Super Saiyan transformations anymore, a direct contrast from Kefla, the practical embodiment of wacky DB power-ups as a "legendary" Super Saiyan combined with a Potara fusion. Well... the idea intrigues me, at least. Toyotaro doesn't do a whole lot with that foil, so I'm still miffed to see their fight skipped over.

The seeds are sown for this back in the Boo arc, but Goku's clearly reached a point where the amount of experience/power he's accumulated from fighting so many strong guys has rendered him bored and overly carefree, even somewhat cocky, for his own good. It therefore makes sense that when he finds there's still a wall to overcome, he's almost single-mindedly consumed by it; Goku lives for self-improvement as a martial artist, so this kind of stuff drives him. The Universe Survival arc specifically builds this up at several points -- first through his becoming rusty and complacent at the start of the arc, then through his reckless decision to meet Zeno, then through his overconfidence displayed in the exhibition battle against Toppo (and learning about Jiren, a mortal surpassing even a God of Destruction), then through his obsession with his "wall" to the extent he only focuses on Jiren and even deliberately knocks other fighters away so as to conserve stamina for that fight, and finally through his utter desperation in attempting to force out as much power as possible (it's really all he can figure at this point, having fought so many foes throughout his adulthood that relied on pure strength over technique) only to fail completely, ultimately having to be reminded of the basics by his most basic teacher, which forces him to re-evaluate his current approach to fighting and ascend to new heights. Power isn't everything, and while Goku is aware of this, he's now in a position where he has to recontextualize it.

Moreover, it gives Ultra Instinct further significance for the character. It's not just a higher realm of fighting, it's actually a thematic milestone for Goku. As it turns out, both Roshi's lesson on conquering oneself and Goku's trust/teamwork play to the juxtaposition of Goku and Jiren's relationship with (and admiration for) their masters, ultimately showing that Goku is closer to the "completeness" Jiren sought all along.

I love this throughline. Easily my favorite character arc in Super and one of my favorite character arcs in the entirety of Dragon Ball. It really does feel like a grand culmination of Goku's lived experiences throughout the original run up until this point, and the manga knocks it squarely out of the park.

Good shit.

The bonus chapter is okay. I like that there's a semi-explanation for 17's strength, even if it isn't quite as satisfactory as I'd have hoped. I'm tempted to say the Cell Juniors coming back is Toyotaro's lighthearted way of poking fun at the infamous Cell plot hole.