Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 10:41 pm
The movies are not as "self-contained" as you are painting them to be. The characters still faced Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Buu... In the very movie we are discussing, Majin Buu is mentioned and Gohan recognizes Freeza. You already shot down the only explanation for there possibly having a difference between power levels, which is the movies being a sequel to each other, you don't believe that's the case, then the only working scenario left is that the movie characters have the same power level as the series characters. Otherwise you would have to explain why the movie characters are stronger despite them not facing anyone else. What is this "movie logic" you are talking about?
The movies frequently adapt core elements of the series’ timeline but are stylized for standalone storytelling. Movie 12 references Majin Buu and past enemies, but it doesn’t conclusively anchor itself in the TV series continuity, as evidenced by contradictions like Goku and Vegeta’s unexplained dead status. “Movie logic” means power scaling and events being crafted to fit the specific movie’s plot rather than strictly adhering to the TV series’ narrative rules.
You don't think GT Goku "train the body and spirit"? And if from the little we saw of his training with Uub in the beginning of Dragon Ball GT is any indication, Goku trained using only his base form.
GT Goku likely trained intensely and it’s already pretty strong in his base form by Toei’s logic, but details are scarce, unlike Dragon Ball Super, where the results of training, such as Vegeta’s spirit control or Goku’s mastery of Ultra Instinct are explicitly contextualized. The leaps in strength for GT Goku’s base form feel more like narrative convenience compared to Toriyama’s progression system for Saiyans. Toei’s portrayal of base Saiyans surpassing Freeza or Cell often hinges on vague mentions of training, without elaborating on how such feats were achieved. It’s like (GT/Toei) Goku is a mutant like (Super) Freeza.
Without context"? "
Without context"? The fact that Super 17 saga takes place twenty-eight years after Freeza saga (twenty-three years after Cell saga)... You would say it's still not enough time for Goku to have surpassed them in his base form because it's a "rule" that the characters must always transform in order to show any increase in power?
Merely stating that decades have passed in-universe isn’t sufficient for justifying power progression, especially when Toriyama himself noted exhaustion of ideas for base forms advancing that far at the time. His recent works instead use specific story developments to explain breakthroughs. Saiyans surpassing Freeza’s level typically involves not only transforming, but acquiring divine strength or using different training methods that can help them overcome their base forms’ limitations (spirit control, ultra instinct, god ki etc.). This flies in the face of how overwhelmingly powerful Base Saiyans are usually presented in the animated movies and series.
