The Super Re-Read

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TobyS
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by TobyS » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:19 pm

Another good analysis.

Yeah I thought it was weird people were hesitant, even Freeza.

I'm glad Ten has Gokus back so easily.

I like that Toyo acknowledges the stupidity of leaving Yamcha out versus Roshi, Bulma is on the verge of remembering him and then is interrupted.

Tenshinhan later assumes he was invited already, Chaozu is offered as a suggestion also.

Sometimes less is more, a good portrayl is better then a bad portrayal, here Yamcha is forgotten but in the anime he's around but he comes up with some dumb-ass arrogant ploy to get asked last minute and be a hero for volunteering.

If only there were 11 or 12 man teams eh?

Further redeemed of course by the Moro arc where he's more then willing to help when asked.

I don't know why they can't use the time chamber or whis staff or both for Buu to sleep off his nap in time to join, and everyone getting elder kais unlock, they act like there isn't time but with this much on the line you think some character would be improvising hax tactics.

Buu getting play in the anime version and then getting fit only works as a tease and bait and switch which seems unfair.

I agree with you there's too much cross talk although Ironically the animes mere existence kind of stops people doing that.

Like if someone is annoyed that "buu had less to do in the manga" is in my mind not a fair criticism, as in the mangas case it never made the promise that it would be otherwise you know? Same with the Yamcha bait, I genuinely thought he'd replace Buu, then Freeza when he betrayed and it'd be a big Yamcha return. Whereas the manga just addresses it and then moves on.

I liked the GoD battle, I liked that it was too OP to be fun for the Zenos, was it only ever going to be gods or was it orignally going to be gods+10 or 10 with the option to bring gods?

I guess Shin and Beerus would replace two humans, or a human and they don't need to think of Freeza... I'd actually like to see that version.

Oh and:

https://imgflip.com/i/4lqkm8
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:08 pm

I've gone over this before, but it's great how effectively these first chapters set up the tournament's thematic conflicts while still managing to read as engrossing as the main event. Some additional commentary:
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:54 pm It's nice to see the divergence once Goku has actually activated a God Form, which 'flips the script' and makes the fight competitive.
The "transformation cycling" in general paints a nice little picture of Toppo's standing in the strength hierachy as a God of Destruction candidate (he's not finger-flicking SS3 Goku into oblivion, but is still powerful enough to make the form useless, and promptly gets equal competition as soon as SSG enters the fray) and, as you've said, characterizes how brazenly overconfident Goku can get outside of just measuring his opponents. Thankfully, he's not a sore loser, and respectfully acknowledges there's still improvement to be had after his loss. It's pretty compact and doesn't overstay its welcome, but also manages to feel a bit multifaceted in purpose.

It's somewhat similar to his sparring match against Trunks earlier in the manga, only here, he pays the price for approaching the fight so childishly.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:54 pm Creditably, Shin will take this judgement to heart in reflecting that the mess they find themselves in is due to their own incompetence, but also hordes of unsuspecting life-forms likewise stand judged. Fortunately, the actions of mortals will not only save Universe 7, but actually slightly raise its mortal level by means of a wish that restores all of the erased Universes.
Glad you brought this up. While the arc continues to highlight how fundamentally incompetent DB's deities so frequently are at their jobs (or the ones relevant to the plot, at least), the finale also demonstrates how it was the Dragon Team's cooperation and trust, as well as 17's goals, that provided Universe 7 with a hard-earned victory and raised their mortal level. It's something of a vindication for Shin. His heart is in the right place, even if his lax methods aren't.

I've seen more than a few people express their annoyance/disappointment with divine characters like Beerus for neglecting to intervene in hazardous situations, particularly in the current arc, but I think that would betray one of the core concepts outlined throughout Super - that it's the mortals who often succeed where their gods fail, even when these stories ultimately revolve around a ragtag crew of weirdos that wind up doing good things rather than intending to be the greater good themselves.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:54 pm Jiren gets a suitably impressive introduction, given how he's been built up
Toyotaro is indeed ridiculously underrated at giving the manga's antagonists compelling, distinctly memorable introductions. In just a few short pages, the reader is already clued in on Jiren's personality, basic motives, and the sort of contrast he presents for protagonists like Goku, which is given further elaboration as the tournament continues. The same sort of treatment applies to Champa and Moro; Black is the only exception, but was intentionally made one to play up the 'mystery' angle of that particular arc and comes out feeling just as memorable nonetheless.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Kakkaroto735 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:54 pm

The Undying wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:08 pm I've gone over this before, but it's great how effectively these first chapters set up the tournament's thematic conflicts while still managing to read as engrossing as the main event. Some additional commentary:
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:54 pm It's nice to see the divergence once Goku has actually activated a God Form, which 'flips the script' and makes the fight competitive.
The "transformation cycling" in general paints a nice little picture of Toppo's standing in the strength hierachy as a God of Destruction candidate (he's not finger-flicking SS3 Goku into oblivion, but is still powerful enough to make the form useless, and promptly gets equal competition as soon as SSG enters the fray) and, as you've said, characterizes how brazenly overconfident Goku can get outside of just measuring his opponents. Thankfully, he's not a sore loser, and respectfully acknowledges there's still improvement to be had after his loss. It's pretty compact and doesn't overstay its welcome, but also manages to feel a bit multifaceted in purpose.

It's somewhat similar to his sparring match against Trunks earlier in the manga, only here, he pays the price for approaching the fight so childishly.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:54 pm Creditably, Shin will take this judgement to heart in reflecting that the mess they find themselves in is due to their own incompetence, but also hordes of unsuspecting life-forms likewise stand judged. Fortunately, the actions of mortals will not only save Universe 7, but actually slightly raise its mortal level by means of a wish that restores all of the erased Universes.
Glad you brought this up. While the arc continues to highlight how fundamentally incompetent DB's deities so frequently are at their jobs (or the ones relevant to the plot, at least), the finale also demonstrates how it was the Dragon Team's cooperation and trust, as well as 17's goals, that provided Universe 7 with a hard-earned victory and raised their mortal level. It's something of a vindication for Shin. His heart is in the right place, even if his lax methods aren't.

I've seen more than a few people express their annoyance/disappointment with divine characters like Beerus for neglecting to intervene in hazardous situations, particularly in the current arc, but I think that would betray one of the core concepts outlined throughout Super - that it's the mortals who often succeed where their gods fail, even when these stories ultimately revolve around a ragtag crew of weirdos that wind up doing good things rather than intending to be the greater good themselves.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:54 pm Jiren gets a suitably impressive introduction, given how he's been built up
Toyotaro is indeed ridiculously underrated at giving the manga's antagonists compelling, distinctly memorable introductions. In just a few short pages, the reader is already clued in on Jiren's personality, basic motives, and the sort of contrast he presents for protagonists like Goku, which is given further elaboration as the tournament continues. The same sort of treatment applies to Champa and Moro; Black is the only exception, but was intentionally made one to play up the 'mystery' angle of that particular arc and comes out feeling just as memorable nonetheless.
Yeah I think the Toyo hate is a band wagon but as an actual writer he isn't the worst. I just hope the Goku sparing Moro nonsense leads somewhere.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Cipher » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:07 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:54 pm
  • On the subject of art, I think we might have hit peak screentone - between the Celestial backdrop, the multiplicity of character designs that have colour as a defining dimension, and the SSj God Forms, which likewise rely on tone for their depiction, I think it's only barely an exaggeration to say that there isn't a single panel in this Chapter that doesn't have it somewhere (usually just panels with a tight focus on Goku). Toriyama was relatively sparing with his use of screentone in the original manga - he claimed ineptitude to explain this (back in the time when I think it would've had to be applied manually). With digital techniques, Toyotarou has always been more liberal with its use - mostly thanks to the importance of colour in the designs, but I also get the feeling that he quite likes it. I've commented before on where his use of tone has seemed more natural than his use of pen-and-ink hatching (in the Universe 6 Tournament).
This is one of my personal nitpicks with Toyotaro, and one of the reasons I generally prefer the color version for the series. (There are a handful of chapters I firmly prefer in black and white, but they're ones for which there's a combination of both the color version making choices I find frustrating and Toyotaro being exceptionally good with use of motion lines and sparing screentone.)

It's not as though I feel screentone has no place in DB, despite Toriyama's near non-existent use of it. It's simply that I don't find Toyotaro's application of it in Super very careful--to the extent that what should be a tool to aid readability sometimes becomes a barrier to it, directing the eyes to odd spots in panels or making images less easily parsed at a glance. I am sympathetic, however, in that he has to work with designs intended for color first with the multimedia aspect of pre-Moro arc Super--not only including the new characters, but the new Saiyan transformations, which absolutely demand use of tone, with the look over the overall series needing to follow suit.

However, I generally find his use of screentone in Victory Mission more carefully considered and successful.
  • Fortunately for the viewing enjoyment of the Zenos, very few of the assembled fighters will sport a power approaching, or on par with, the Gods of Destruction generally - Universe 7 will actually field the most in Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Gohan, and perhaps Android #17 (though he may be in the gulf between SSj3 and SSjG). Of all the other Universes, contenders of that level will only be selected by Universe 6 in Hit (and Kale, but only from 超 #37-38 - upon which she is replaced by Kefla), and Universe 11 in Toppo, maybe Dyspo (but again, the same cautions as were made for #17 apply here), and of course Jiren, whose outrageous power dwarfs everyone else's. A very considerable number of the fighters fielded overall, where their strength can be gauged at all, seem to be below even SSj level, and only God-tier fighters will remain with around 10 minutes left in the battle.
I suppose some people may take issue with the way it reduces the number of potentially interesting threats, but there is a nice consistency to fighters of that power remaining rare. We've known since the Boo arc that the main cast are unprecedentedly strong for mortals (at "only" Super Saiyan 2 levels), and it stands to reason that Beerus wouldn't have been so excited over the idea of Super Saiyan God were fighters on that level a dime a dozen across the multiverse.

Of course these standards could just as easily be violated when bringing in completely different universes with their own histories, but I feel like the arc does well by following on relatively steadily from what the series has established with Universe 7 as an example.
  • Goku doesn't even act like it, but surely this fight has to be Peak Cocky Goku. He knows for a fact that his opponent is a God of Destruction Candidate, and says he can tell "how incredibly strong you are" - he starts off in SSj (to observe, fair enough), but acts somehow chagrined to learn that "there's still a gap between us", and is surprised to learn that SSj3 does nothing either - then he's surprised that Toppo can "cast the aura of a God", and acts like he's got the whole thing in the bag when he goes for an SSjB finisher. Frankly, even though there's nothing much riding on the fight, I think he deserves to get knocked down a peg like that. Even his pursuit of Jiren in the Tournament (and taking on Toppo and Dyspo in just SSj2 in a futile attempt to draw Jiren's attention in 超 #35), hubristic though it is, isn't as arrogant as this showing, which is frankly pretty jarring in its sloppiness.
I love cocky Goku, and him setting himself up to be knocked down in the Tournament of Power itself is certainly one of the pleasures (and thematically relevant throughlines) of the arc. But just taking the (quite fun!) fight with Toppo on its own, yes, there's a pleasure to his being full of himself. He spends so much of the series as the underdog against impossibly strong antagonists, or in moments of reserved stoic restraint (during rescues in the Saiyan and Namek arcs, for example), that sometimes it's satisfying to simply see him take the "Yeah, I know I'm hot shit" approach in low-stakes settings. It's a side of his character we know must exist from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai onward, as he keeps letting potentially world-ending rivals go simply because he's convinced there's no other challenge left, but it's nice to see that side of him actually get to rear its head on the page, and it follows on fairly seamlessly from it having done just that a few times in the Boo arc in the original run. (Toriyama also picks up on the undercurrent of this cocky done-it-all Goku in his script for Battle of Gods, before Goku gets put in his place by Beerus.)

I'm surprised you didn't mention Beerus' ordering him to immediately skip past Super Saiyan 2 due to the Zenos being unable to tell the difference. As fan-ish a joke as that is, the timing of the delivery is quite funny.
  • At Belmod's planet ...
I just want to highlight how much I enjoy Vermoud's character-acting/expressions in this scene. You genuinely feel that he's both extremely cocky about the situation and also completely put out by it. The poor guy just wants to retire.
  • The pre-game meal for Universe 7 includes a cheese board, a platter of burgers (and they are huge - take a look at Vegeta chowing down on one...and then compare with the cover for Volume 11, I guess), dumplings, sushi, pizza, some sort of triangular sliced loaf or cake(?), and two enormous haunches of meat. Just a light snack, then. Goku will follow this up with three helpings of food at Kuririn's, kebabs with Android #17, enough food to send him to sleep at Tenshinhan's place, a "big meal" at Baba's place, and a Senzu Bean.
I talked about this during my Twitter reread, and perhaps the next update is the better spot for it, but the way Goku spends his time during the recruitment window just narrowly dodges making any temporal sense (mostly because of the timing of Mr. Satan's interview and contacting the cast in upcoming chapters).
  • The order of nomination goes Goku-Vegeta-Piccolo-(Buu)-Roshi-Tenshinhan-Kuririn-#18-#17-Gohan-Freeza, but the actual order of recruitment runs Goku-Vegeta-Kuririn-#18-#17-Roshi-Tenshinhan-Piccolo-Gohan-Freeza; the ease of recruitment is something else again, as only Goku, Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Gohan don't raise some sort of objection to participation at some point or other (whether because of a newborn baby, money, 'just 'cause', being scared, or 'being evil') - which, given the seemingly overriding priority of the erasure of the Universe, is a pretty weird attitude for most of them to take.
At least #17 has a thematically relevant "just 'cause," in terms of setting up change! (But that's for next update.)
  • Over on Planet Bas - the Pride Troopers face off against a monster; it's been pointed out that the monster is named Choki, from the Dr. Slump spin-off Dr. Mashirito and Abale-chan - it is the bio-weapon from the invading "Tech-Tech" aliens, who seem to be variously represented (or otherwise are so simply designed that they bear a strong resemblance to other aliens) in several Toriyama (-derived) works - Toriyama has explained that most of his aliens look like this, so at least the Tech-Tech and the aliens from Neko Majin are supposed to be different. The most likely other candidates for 'Tech-Tech' in Dragon Ball works are Gure, Tarble's wife from Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return!, and Irico, the Galactic Patrolman from the Moro arc. If this were so, then the Tech-Tech are either able to traverse Universes (we are in Universe 11 here, after all), or else they may be a species who have representatives in more than one Universe (see also: Jimeze of Universe 2, who appears to be a type of Yardrat...maybe).
1) I have to note that this planet is perhaps better rendered as "Bath" (with the Japanese "su" being used to approximate "th" in loan words). The planet's name is identical to the standard rendering of "bath" as a loan word in Japanese, and it's accompanied by mentions of Planet Towele (from "towelette"), where Jiren is subduing the Washlettians (as in, beings from the planet Washlette, as distinct from Planet Towele, where they're apparently on the lam) after their escape from the Galactic Prison--same naming scheme as the one that will play a major role in Universe 7 next arc.

2) The Tech-Tech aliens (named as such) also appear as villains in Lord Wu and the Island of Delights, a post-Neko Majin comic Toriyama authored for an acquaintance's non-profit rural restoration initiative, highlighting the delights of locally grown foods and agricultural communities. A back-up drawn by one of his former assistants goes into the ecological ailments of their native planet due to overuse of resources, but who's to say whether that applies as backstory to all instances of Tech-Tech aliens across Toriyama's works, or if they're even the same critters, in a continuity-sense. At any rate, much like the Galactic Patrol with its two pre-Jaco stories (both out of continuity with DB), they're a concept he keeps coming back to.
  • Jiren gets a suitably impressive introduction, given how he's been built up: he flies unaided from a distant planet (faster than even the fastest spaceships) to tonk the bad guy on the head, toss him into the air and convert him into some sort of capsule, while even Toppo is restricted to watching on the sidelines. I think this sequence also gets my vote for favourite art in the way that it manages to convey Jiren's power (particularly the initial point of impact, and also the panel where Jiren punches Choki into the air, which really gives a nicely vertiginous feeling - I also think that the monster converted into a capsule is pleasingly cute), and it's all capped off with a nice (Toriyama-derived) panel for the first proper shot of Jiren.
You don't even mention that he literally pushes the monster through the ground and out into the ocean, leaving a giant tunnel behind, which is probably the most effectively over-the-top element of the scene, especially because he doesn't pause between doing that and flying in from outer space--it's one fluid motion, and yes, an effective introduction. Jiren's introductory scene really does sell him as a larger-than-life element.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:49 am

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 29 - 32
Part 2 (Chapters 31 and 32)

Image

...Mmmmyep, it's a Super Re-Read alright. Welcome to the second part of this instalment, where we'll finish off Volume 6 and the introductory third of the Tournament of Power arc! These two Chapters cover the recruitment of the Universe 7 team, with a detour into Universe 6, and some enjoyable frolics therein.

Once again, thanks to all of you who have taken the time to contribute to the discussion so far, and credit and thanks to Kanzenshuu and its constituent staff, past and present, for creating so many fine resources, which have been used liberally in making the Super Re-Read.

Okey-doke, it's time to grab your manga once again, and get re-reading...

Chapter 31 - Super Warriors Assemble!/The Super Warriors Gather!
16 December 2017
Chapter Notes
  • The 'deep fake' of Mr. Satan defeating Cell, complete with his own aura, is pretty enjoyable. Overall, it seems like it's a reference to Dragon Ball Online, the timeline of which notes that in Age 796 (so, about 15 years from the present), Mr. Satan will release the film The Legend of Satan, which uses special FX to show him fighting like Goku and co. (take a look at his huge aura here), so I guess this kind of fakery is just an early example of this. Of course, the only action caught on camera between Satan and Cell involved the monster smacking him into a cliff, in DB #398, but Satan's posture in this 'deep fake' is a (flipped) usage of the pose he strikes prior to 'fighting' Cell in that issue.
  • We get treated to a shot of Ginger Town in the retrospective, including the rich man who got absorbed by Cell in DB #361, and the news correspondent who initially reported the disturbance before vanishing, in DB #360 (interestingly, his moustache changes significantly between panels in the original issue, which I hadn't noticed before). Obviously, we also get a shot re-establishing Android #17 as revived by the Dragon Balls - this was never shown at the time, but was established by the dialogue from DB #418; Kuririn's wish at that time will become the principal motivation for Android #17 to agree to participate in this arc.
  • Kuririn, #18 and Maron all live in a two-story, detached suburban house. Presumably this is in Satan City, where Kuririn was working as a Police Officer in Revival of F. If so, this would explain why Goku left West City in the middle of the day via Shunkan Idou, only to show up at Kuririn's in the middle of the night - they're on practically opposite sides of the world, West and East respectively (ocean stands between them, though one wonders whether it's quite as huge as our Pacific Ocean), so it would make a lot of sense for there to be a significant Time Zone difference. I don't think that kind of thing has ever been picked up as a detail in Dragon Ball before.
  • Kuririn and #18's house has a bunch of interesting bit and pieces - first of all, there's a photo of the family from around the Buu arc (judging from Kuririn's hairstyle), and behind that there are a few volumes of Manga - from right to left, they represent Dragon Ball, Dr. Slump, and One Piece. The first two are obviously an homage to Toriyama's most famous works (and Dr. Slump also has a very famous robot girl in it, which also works as an oblique connection to #18), whereas One Piece is represented due to Kuririn sharing a voice actress with Monkey D. Luffy, the main character of One Piece - Mayumi Tanaka. Toriyama has stated before that Tanaka is the only voice actor he specifically asked for by name to work on Dragon Ball (though he picked actors like Masako Nozawa after audition, as well). Other references in the house to One Piece are on Maron and Kuririn's clothes - Kuririn's shirt reads 'One ☮' (thus reading 'One Peace', so a homophone with the reference), and Maron likewise has the '☮' symbol on her shirt. Technically, ☮ is the symbol of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, and the design was derived from the Semaphore signalling positions for the letters 'N'(uclear) and 'D'(isarmament), superimposed so they are incorporated as a single glyph. More colloquially, it's known as the "Peace" symbol, which is what allows this reference to work. If there's some far future depiction of Kuririn as an old master with his own school, like in Dragon Ball Online, I could get behind that (or some appropriate Kanji equivalent) being the symbol of his School. Other objects of note in the house are a picture of Kame House on that wall, where the family lived at the time of the Buu arc, and a clock that appears to be in the shape of an octopus - this is perhaps a reference to Kuririn's baldness, as Chaozu once insulted Kuririn's baldness by calling him an "Octopus" in DB #116. It's also worth pointing out that #18 appears to have a dish of food in front of her, despite the fact that strictly speaking, she doesn't need to eat.
  • I kind of get the rationale behind not freaking people out by telling them about the Universal erasure, but it really does just set up pointless trouble for Goku in 超 #32, when Kuririn briefly withdraws, being both scared off and hurt at being lied to. Android #18's response is characteristic, and becomes pretty much her default position - though her statement "I'm not interested in playing a game that doesn't even offer a reward" is pretty ironic given that she's playing Maron at a (presumably no-stakes?) game while she says that. The mercenary aspect of #18's character comes originally from DB #426, where she only shows interest in the Tenka'ichi Budokai when Gohan mentions there's prize money. It's fitting that Goku persuades her with the same amount of prize money as the Winner of the 25th Budokai was due to get. Of course, #18 refused to leave the Budokai with the rest of the heroes in DB #445 on the basis that "there's no money in it", and made off with double the prize money, on top of her own runner-up money, after throwing the game for a substantial bung from Mr. Satan in DB #454. In a continuation of the Bulma the Piggy Bank gag, Bulma will end up funding her participation here, and will also pay that magic 10 million Zeni sum for her to join in the fight with Moro in in 超 #56. It seems she's only tempted by sums of around this size, though it also means she'll've 'earned' something in the order of 45 million Zeni (about $450,000) in the last 6 or 7 years - no doubt much more than Kuririn, although she'll note that he won't be giving up his day job in 超 #39.
  • Goku notes that the Capsule Corp compound has, among other things, an amusement park and an aquarium, which I don't think has ever been mentioned or shown before. Instead, #18 will elect to leave Maron with...*checks notes*...Goten and Trunks on Monster Island. Hmm. Okay.
  • Goku and Dende say they haven't seen each other in a while - Dende was present at the Universe 6 Tournament in 超 #7, but I think this was the last time, so this would've been over a year prior to this meeting - Popo insists that Goku call Dende Kami-Sama, as this is his title; Goku is of course responsible for Dende's appointment as God of Earth, and his familiarity with the Lord of Everything (remarked upon disapprovingly in 超 #29) is likewise on display with lesser Gods. Goku has never addressed Dende as Kami-Sama before, though he has mentioned that Dende would be "our new Kami-Sama" in DB #393 (Kuririn once caught himself addressing Dende improperly, and corrected himself, in DB #469) - he will eventually give Dende the appropriate respect in 超 #63, in keeping with Dende's own resolution to intervene as God of Earth.
  • The ability of the sanctuary to move about Earth is a new feature - previously it has been situated above the Karin Tower, which is how Karin knew that the Nyoi-Bo would extend to lock into the underside of the Sanctuary, as of DB #162, as it once connected the two. Kami-Sama can see anything in the world from his position in the sanctuary anyway. In this respect, it's just as well that Kami wasn't off somewhere when Goku came to the sanctuary originally... Still, it doesn't really do anything to impact the scope of Dende's divine awareness of events (he surprises Goku with the extent of his knowledge of the current crisis, and explains that he knows because he's a God), so I'm fine with it.
  • Dende takes the trouble to point out Uub to Goku and insist that he trains him, even taking the trouble to spell out that he's Buu's reincarnation. There's a slight discrepancy introduced here, since in DB #519, Dende seems surprised by Piccolo's insight that Goku's fight with Uub will be the one to watch (and also by Uub's actual performance). I guess it's not a particularly serious discrepancy, since even knowing about the truth of Uub wouldn't necessarily mean Dende thinks he can put up a fight against Goku, particularly as he is by 超 #64. Dende notes that Buu's soul was cleansed to enable his rebirth as a Human - Toriyama has mentioned that it's easier to cleanse purely evil souls quickly, hence Enma being able to turn this around so quickly (Uub should be around 6 years old at this point). Another significant element of Uub's potential will be raised in 超 #49, when it is established that the godly power of the Dai Kaioshin went to Buu's evil half, and so would have been in Kid Buu - this perhaps indicates that Uub, his good reincarnation, may also have Godly ki that he can access - which is a pretty natural way of explaining why Uub would still be relevant after Dragon Ball Super's huge power creep, and which goes a long way to explaining why Goku in particular would still be eager to fight him once he's trained him to use his power properly.
  • Monster island is a pretty fun location, and #17's reasoning for being there - "Monsters are wildlife too" - is a pretty fitting take on an otherwise slightly unusual aspect of his character. Toriyama established #17's job as a Ranger for a Royal Park some time back, and that he's likely embarrassed by its comparative wholesomeness (I imagine 'working for The Man' doesn't sit very well with him, either, so it's also fitting that he sticks two fingers up - figuratively speaking - at the Zenos at the end of the arc), though it pays well enough to help support a family of 5. The monsters mostly appear to be dinosaur-based, with various pterodactyl-type, Tyrannosaurus-type and Brachiosaurus-type monsters, but there are several others which give this general area my vote for favourite art - most notably the weird little hare-tortoise in the corner of one panel, and of course the Minotauruses, which are the targets of the poachers (to delve briefly into Pokemon for a moment, they seem to sort of resemble a cross between a Tauros and a Bouffalant).
  • We get a bunch of Mighty Mask gags in a short exchange, which is kind of puzzling, as I don't think the Captain of the Poachers is supposed to actually be Mighty Mask - his face was shown when he was knocked out by Trunks in DB #437, and it's not very similar to this guy. I think it's just supposed to be a cute visual reference and a contrivance that allows #17 to fight Goku because he doesn't recognise him, and nothing more than that.
  • Speaking of which, #17 shows himself quite capable of tangling with Goku up to SSj3 level. Goku doesn't seem particularly troubled by the fight until #17 tries to escalate things further (which at least indicates he's capable of doing so) - Dende says he'd be worried by #17's power if he were still a bad guy, and Goku will mention that #17 is in his and Vegeta's ballpark as of 超 #42, though Piccolo will firmly establish in 超 #53 that Gohan is next strongest among Earth's warriors, after Goku and Vegeta. Since there isn't much else that pins down #17 properly here (he's effectively just 'somewhere between SSj3 Goku and Full Power Gohan', which is a pretty big gulf), it's probably most accurate (if pretty wishy-washy) to assign him to just general 'God Tier' at this point.
  • Given that Super retrospectively shifts certain things around whenever convenient, it's nice to see it do a bit of reconciliation for the original series by explaining how #17 recognises Goku's voice - a minor plot hole introduced in DB #515, where #17 mentions that he hasn't heard Goku's voice in a long time (originally more sensibly drafted as a line belonging to Lunch).
  • It's weird how fatalistic so many of the characters are, but at least with the more rebellious and nihilistic #17, it makes a bit of sense that he's really not interested in the broader concerns of Universe 7. However, I want to put down here that I'm really fond of the fact that he's persuaded to enter on the basis of his sense of obligation to Kuririn for wishing the bombs out of him and #18, and giving them both a new lease on life and the freedom to do what they want and have rewarding lives, rather than just being monsters or misfits. I strongly believe that the point of the characters in the Tournament of Power is how much they owe each other, so the fan incomprehension and annoyance at stuff like Kuririn being knocked out immediately in 超 #34 and not getting a "good showing" or whatever is totally wide of the mark. The point isn't whether characters like Roshi or Kuririn actually beat anybody else, but on the other things they bring to the table, in having provided their Universe with the wherewithal to survive - #17 would not have entered were it not for Kuririn's actions back in DB #418, and he ends up the winner of the whole thing - and the same rebelliousness that provokes him to initially decline to participate here is what ends up restoring all of the other Universes in 超 #42. I'd say Kuririn's part in that plotline is altogether more useful and important than anything he might've done in the fight itself. I think this all fits within the broader theme of teamwork, too - the Universe 7 Team are all individualistic fighters (unlike, say, Universes 9 or 11), but they all have a story with each other - they belong together.
  • I suppose I should note by this point that Mr. Satan's tacky suit is cribbed from Toriyama's GT Character Designs, though he obviously hasn't lost his hair yet. On another note, you can see that the Viz Editors haven't changed his name on Bulma's phone screen when he calls her back. And I like his doofy 'is the camera on?' face that goes with it.
  • I think that Beerus is in the middle of eating a whole banana, peel and all, while they wait for Satan to call back.
  • The almost-memory of Yamcha is amusing enough, and the interstitial with Yamcha baseball "training" is a funny send-up of the 'keep from getting rusty, just in case' trope that Dragon Ball plays with occasionally. But the gag of Yamcha making no impression at all on Vegeta is perhaps a tad too on-the-nose.
  • Buu is asleep again, of course. This specific point of occasional longer hibernations for Buu came up for the first time in the Revival of F Promo Manga, where it was mentioned that occasionally he hibernates, as opposed to sleeping for mere instants (as in DB #477, where he sleeps for 5 seconds); I think this is the first time that this is specified to be 2 months, and to occur once per year; the fact that Buu is asleep at the commencement of the Moro arc in 超 #42 means that this arc (and by extension, the incident with Broly) occurs either within the 2-month window begun here, or up to a year later for this to have occurred again. Toriyama has mentioned that long slumber following long periods of activity has always been natural to Buu, but also that Buu's need to hibernate may change after his splitting - it's not clear whether, or to what degree, the current process is different from how things used to be.
Chapter 32 - Super Warriors Assemble! 2/The Super Warriors Gather! Part 2
20 January 2018
Chapter Notes
  • We jump in with our first view of Planet Sadla, in Universe 6 (presumably pretty much identical to the former Sadla of Universe 7) - in the colour release, it's a red planet with yellow skies. It's depicted with two satellites, so it's just as well that it's been established that the Saiyans of Universe 6 lost their tails a long time ago (as per 超 #8). Planet Plant/Vegeta, the successor planet of the Universe 7 Saiyans, is only depicted from orbit in the manga in DB #307 and DBminus. The colour release for DB #307 likewise shows this planet as red, and DBminus depicts it as possessing two satellites (which would be more of a problem, depending on how often they orbit the inhabited areas of the planet).
  • We get a view of the grander elements of Sadla from a distance, and a more detailed look at the slums as well. Saiyan slum architecture in Universe 6's Planet Sadla is virtually identical to that of Universe 7's Planet Vegeta - lumpen buildings festooned with numerous pimply windows. Doors seem to be a relative rarity, with buildings otherwise open to the street (Caulifla's Headquarters aside). Cabbe passes a suitably downtrodden-looking woman in the slums, as well as a drunken (possibly homeless) man. Saiyan appetites in this regard seem to align with those shown in DBminus, where several individuals are shown drinking from large flagons (and eating raw meat, which seems to be a staple of the Saiyan diet - you now, amongst any potentially edible food). Sadla Slum-wear seems reminiscent of primitive Saiyan clothing before they were subjugated and pressed into service by King Cold; which fits with Vegeta's comment in 超 #8 that Cabbe's Saiyan armour likewise resembles that of the Saiyans from before that time. As a couple of other similarities, the open army supply buggy on Sadla seems to be vaguely similar to a (rather smaller and more basic) support vehicle on Vegeta shown in DBminus, and the Crest depicted on it, and on the pendant taken by Caulifla, is similar to the Universe 7 Saiyan Royal Crest, as depicted in the DBZ Anime and 超 #3. Unsurprisingly, the Universe 6 Saiyan spacecraft, shown later in this chapter, are much different to those of Universe 7, since these latter are heavily influenced by the design tenets of the Freeza Force, which doesn't apply here.
  • Caulifla makes her first appearance as a gang leader of a (broadly) Robin Hood type, doing a bit of supply raiding on army forces unwisely moving through her turf in order to distribute it to the slum-dweller children of Sadla - that this is more of a 'rob from the rich, give to the poor' type of motivation can be discerned from her pleasure at the fact that the supplies are mostly food, and the later scene where the gang's open-handedness with the community is clearly displayed. Caulifla's soft spot for waifs and strays will be returned to in 超 #37, when Kale (one of her three principal henchmen/proteges) says that she follows Caulifla because she took her followers in, Kale included, when they were "lost by the roadside". So, Caulifla's actions are presented as petty (and her brash, nettlesome cockiness and general self-absorption reinforces that feeling), but they are ultimately virtuously motivated, presumably from a desire to look after 'her people', abandoned as they seem to be by the authorities.
  • The Saiyan army man pulls a beam gun on Caulifla, which has occasioned comment as a surprising instance of a Saiyan who can't use ki. While I think this is the first time a combatant Saiyan has been depicted with a firearm (Paragus will use a beam gun in Dragon Ball Super: Broly, despite a Battle Power of 4200, but this will not be released until 18 December), in the main story, various soldiers employed by Freeza will use such weapons, as they are apparently for warriors with "low ki power" - see, e.g., DB #248, for a beam gun connected to a scouter. According to Daizenshuu #7, this connection enables beams of variable strength to be fired depending on the scouter reading. It's probable that most combatant Saiyans in Universe 6 are, like their Universe 7 counterparts, not particularly impressive when compared to the most powerful warriors in their Universes, though they are surely mighty when set against the broader vista (hence why the soldier is able to call the Sadla army "the mightiest army in the Universe". We also get our first mention in the manga that Sadla has a king - he receives tribute, presumably for the peacekeeping services mentioned by Cabbe in 超 #8.
  • I like the first, subtle reveal of Kale's power - it's fitting that she is totally unassuming in character, and moves and acts in ways that are calculated to hide her phenomenal power (which, of course, she wouldn't be able to do if she weren't as strong as she is). She takes and crushes a beam gun without Caulifla being sure that she's done anything at all right now, but she will also manage to snatch a pendant from SSj Cabbe's hand without him noticing (after he's done the same thing to Caulifla; incidentally, he does it mid-fight, too, as she's not wearing it when he kicks her into a cliff-wall), thus clueing Cabbe in to Kale's power, and influencing him to bring her to the Tournament of Power as well. Kale's status as being naturally stronger than either of her Universe's Super Saiyans, even in base form, will be cemented in 超 #37, where she characteristically tries to intervene unseen in the fight between Freeza and Caulifla, and Freeza will state that Kale's attacks hurt more than those of SSj Caulifla. If the official SSj multipliers hold good here, then base form Kale is more than 50 times stronger than either Cabbe or Caulifla, which is pretty massive.
  • I enjoy Cabbe marching in, casually shooting the gun out of the grunt's hands, and addressing the big boss directly. He'd look cool, if he didn't get immediately decked for it. :lol:
  • I guess for this tournament, almost every participant has their price; few seem to feel particularly obliged to do it, despite the stakes. Caulifla is unique in the sense of self-improvement being dangled in front of her to provoke her interest and gain her participation, as being beaten by Cabbe (and told about the further mountain there is to climb) gives her the desire to develop her power - this is sort of played up as a pride thing, as she says "I've yet to see a single Saiyan who can defeat me..!", and in 超 #37, Kale indicates that she hides her power out of deference to Caulifla, thinking that it might be a blow to Caulifla's pride to be so overmastered - but of course, the twist in 超 #38 is that Caulifla is thrilled by Kale's power. So it seems that despite her self-absorption, Caulifla enjoys the challenge of stronger opponents on some level, as might be expected of a Saiyan (or else, she's just into power as such, and it simply tickles her vanity to have such power working for her).
  • By contrast, a significant proportion of the Universe 7 team have the price of actual money (Bulma the Piggy Bank pays off Roshi and Android #18), but Kuririn is offended by the assumption that this is what would tempt him to participate. I quite enjoy the gags around it, and Kuririn being talked around by a very sub-par attempt at asking for his help, presumably on the basis that it's Goku asking (though it really does cast a query over Goku's selection process); I also enjoy the fact that Beerus is stink-eyeing Goku like everyone else, when the instruction to not mention Universal erasure came from Beerus in the first place. Awkward.
  • Oh yes, we also get the first of the running gag where Beerus keeps calling Kuririn 'Kurin'. I don't know whether the gag is emphasising the 'chestnut' ('kuri') element to Kuririn's name, or whether it's just that Kuririn's too insignificant for Beerus to bother ever getting his name right (even when he does something useful in 超 #36). Either way, it's not a very funny gag.
  • The Elder Kaioshin notes he's retired. If he hasn't been retired since the beginning, then I guess the most natural time for it is in the gap between Battle of Gods (超 #4) and the Universe 6 Tournament (超 #5), which is when he...goes on vacation. One wonders where a Kaioshin goes on vacation - answers on a postcard.
  • For the benefit of the future, we get the great big 'nobody knows who all the strong people are' statement in this Chapter. The narrative's referent is firstly Jiren (as the principal super strong guy who wasn't known about until mentioned), but also Kale, here. Kale has a very specific personal counterpart in Universe 7's Broly (unlike comparisons between Cabbe and Vegeta, or Caulifla and Goku, which don't convince me much), and they're both essentially mighty, but capable of remaining hidden from broader notice. From what we're able to infer, both Kale and Broly sit somewhere around or above the power of the Super Saiyans of their Universe when in base form. Kale is certainly significantly stronger than SSj Cabbe or Caulifla, as she can move and attack without them even seeing her, but she deliberately downplays her power and so remains initially unnoticed. Broly, by contrast, manages to go toe-to-toe with SSj Vegeta once he's got the hang of fighting a strong opponent, but is also in a remote corner of the Universe. Really, given the fact that Buu arc Goku's SSj3 power was great enough to be sensed in the Kaioshin Realm, outside the bounds of the main Universe (as in DB #474), the series is now in the unenviable position of having to contrive reasons for ever-escalating levels of power remaining completely hidden and unknown; for Kale and Broly in particular, it's because their true power hasn't been accessed yet, and is waiting for the provocation of a no-limits battle (and transformation, to boot), but we'll also get Moro from 超 #43 onwards, as an ancient, sealed-away evil waiting for the opportunity to regain his true power. These both work fine for what they are, but one wonders to what extent vast leaps in power can continue to be made to permit new and challenging antagonists - one supposes that, as with the introduction of Ultra Instinct in this arc, some different dimension of challenge will need to be presented in the series if it is intended that it should last much longer. In fairness to Dragon Ball Super, it has already done this to a certain extent, showing antagonists with gimmicks and other kinds of threat (Hit and Zamas spring to mind), but it twins this with antagonists who just have outrageous power going for them (such as Jiren and Broly). There actually seems to be something of a structure running here, as we get Power (Beerus) - Power (Freeza) - Gimmick (Hit) - Gimmick (Zamas) - Power (Jiren) - Power (Broly) - Gimmick (Moro), which, if the series continues, would lead me to think that another gimmick antagonist (for want of a better expression) is due; of course, different kinds of threat aren't mutually exclusive of huge power either, as Zamas and Moro have shown us. I like to think that Dragon Ball is slowly making its way back to becoming something of a gag manga, as at some point Fourth-Wall meta-gag power is all it'll have left to play with...
  • A subtle comparison between the Universe 6 Saiyans and the SSj kids might be drawn, should one choose to - while they aren't as powerful as the outrageously powerful Saiyans of Universe 7 (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan), they have a natural talent that makes them a potential threat. Cabbe mentions that the Universe 7 Saiyans had trouble with it, but Vegeta makes no mention of that in his fight with Cabbe in 超 #12, so I guess they talked about it in that one panel in 超 #13. Like Goten and Trunks, both Cabbe and Caulifla are capable of achieving forms like this with much greater facility, presumably because they are naturally somewhat gentler than the ferocious Saiyans of Universe 7 and consequently have more S-Cells. But even though, like Goten and Trunks, they have remarkable potential, at the moment, Cabbe and Caulifla are just 'also-rans' unless they continue to apply themselves.
  • I already mentioned this for favourite art when looking at the material referring to Revival of F earlier in this thread, but I really like the Freeza flashback scenes where we see his death from his own point of view - the framing is a clever twist, and the art itself is lovely. In fact, I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I think Toyotarou's Freeza is among his strongest work generally - he's noted that Freeza is really hard to draw (Toriyama has also called the design deceptively difficult), and I think he pretty much nails Freeza every time. I think this is doubly impressive when considering that (in my opinion) Volume 26's and 27's art has a relatively rough edge, compared to much of Toriyama's linework, which doesn't necessarily translate well to Toyotarou's style. So, yeah; I think he does a really good job with the character, and I always enjoy looking at Toyotarou's Freeza.
  • So, Freeza can get stronger by thinking about it, essentially. He was stronger than SSjB in Revival of F, but despite the power creep of the series so far, he's still apparently broadly on par with Goku and Vegeta. Image training was shown in DB #246, where Gohan and Kuririn train with each other - it seems to take some amount of physical effort to do, and it's possible for characters to use moves and project an accurate sense of their actual strength. Additionally, the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume mentions image training as an aspect of Goku's training in Heaven between the Cell and Buu arcs, and says that image training can raise one's maximum ki; I guess it's fitting that what's good for Goku in Heaven is good for Freeza in Hell - one of the ways in which, I suppose, Freeza aligns more with Goku to become, if not his opposite, then at least a warrior whose trajectory more directly relates to him.
  • Beerus mentions that they should work as a team, let the other teams tire themselves out, and work together to defeat approaching enemies. Of course, in 超 #33, half of the team will immediately ignore this and seek enemies to fight on their own. But in a strange way, the team will manage to follow the instruction - when major threats to each team member come up, someone else will be there to help out:
    • Gohan will be helped by Piccolo and Freeza in overcoming the Trio de Dangers; Gohan will likewise give Piccolo an assist when he's in trouble with Universe 9's fighters (Rozel in particular).
    • Freeza will give a twist on this idea by co-opting Frost to hobble the Universe 9 Team, before eliminating him; he'll use the Universe 7 Humans as pawns to this end 'working with' (read: using) them in a very 'Freeza' sort of way; Goku will also intervene to help Roshi against Frost in all of this.
    • Kuririn manages to intervene from the stands to briefly get #18 out of a bind and disable Ribriane, Universe 2's most powerful fighter, before they both get knocked off.
    • Goku and Android #17 manage to work together to unmask and eliminate the bug fighter Damon after he knocks out Piccolo.
    • Goku helps out Freeza once Kale turns SSj and puts him under some pressure.
    • Gohan intervenes to get Kefla away from Goku so that he can keep fighting Jiren, and takes her out of contention.
    • Roshi manages to show Goku what he's been missing, which gives him his way in to attaining to Ultra Instinct and weakening Jiren sufficiently to open the way for his eventual elimination.
    • Goku saves Vegeta from elimination at Jiren's hands, while he's briefly distracted.
    • Freeza takes over and tries to run down the clock, by #17 manages to step in to prevent his elimination at Jiren's hands.
    • Vegeta narrowly saves Goku from elimination by Jiren when Ultra Instinct runs out, and he and Goku will work together (and perfectly) to take on Jiren in the final confrontation.
    • And, of course, Freeza and Android #17 concoct the ruse that hands Universe 7 the victory in the end.
    How does a team that doesn't act like a team still manage to work as a team? Like that, apparently.
  • And finally, a note on Bulma's words at the end of the Chapter - Toyotarou has, I believe, confirmed that this is an homage to Bulma's voice actress, Hiromi Tsuru, who sadly died a couple of months before this Chapter was released. The line is the last recorded by this voice actress, I believe.
  • So, this Volume has basically done the job of setting up the premise, the stakes, and all the other initial background prep for an arc that is basically going to be fight-fight-fight all the way home from this point on. I think I'm going to miss the tone, pacing and character work done in these last 4 chapters. Not that I don't think character work or other points of interest will come up in the following chapters, or anything, but looked at a certain way, the last 4 chapters have continued (and expanded into other Universes) the 'Slice of Life' aspects brought up in Chapter 27, and it's been quite charming for that. We've seen various characters come together, interact, and we've seen enjoyable action help fill in those relationships and backstories in the Universes that are clearly signalled as being the ones that matter (namely Universes 11, 6, and of course, 7), and it has set a number of themes running around teamwork that are going to get their payoff in several variations going forward. I'm a little surprised by how much I enjoyed this.
    If the set-up to the Future Trunks arc was too fussy and required the comparatively de-cluttered action of the second half of the arc to prevent the whole thing becoming just too snarled up in itself, this approach is, by contrast, probably just right in and of itself - much better balanced and paced - but whereas the previous arc did all the work in its first half and was able to set down its narrative burden (with some relief) for the second half, I wonder whether the last two-thirds of this arc will quite do enough carrying of the arcs' themes and concepts through to its denouement, relative to what we've seen so far, since it has to focus so much on the fighting aspect now - I guess this remains to be seen as we go through the re-read further. Still, I've enjoyed this part of it, and look forward to trying to squirrel out whatever the coming chapters have to show us.
Welp, that's it for now - how 'bout you guys? What came out of your re-read?

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:06 am

Just want to add how much I liked Goku suddenly returning to the group with Freeza so late, all bruised and bloodied. It's an amusing punchline on its own, but also effectively instills some worry about how someone as scummy as Freeza could possibly relate to the arc's central idea of teamwork. You don't need epic fights and filler sidequests about beating up space assassins for that. I'd rather not belabor any manga-anime comparisons in this thread if I can help it, if mostly for the sake of the topic, but notice how compelling these slice-of-life segments can be without having to constantly send the characters on a wild goose chase. The manga's recruitment phase is great because it keeps everything succinct, purposeful, and largely relevant to the main themes of the arc.

Otherwise, you've said just about everything I would have said. I love all the trivia you've been adding here as well -- it's nice to have all this stuff in one place and interspersed with thoughtful analysis.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:57 pm

Cipher wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:07 pmI'm surprised you didn't mention Beerus' ordering him to immediately skip past Super Saiyan 2 due to the Zenos being unable to tell the difference. As fan-ish a joke as that is, the timing of the delivery is quite funny.
You're right, of course; I should've mentioned this point again - it's just that I mentioned this the last time Goku used all the SSj forms back in 超 #2, and I guess I just didn't really have anything to add to the original comment. For completeness, here's the original chapter note:
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:19 pm
  • Goku moves up through the SSj gears against Beerus, showing SSj, SSj2, and SSj3 - he did this last to buy time against Buu in DB #474, and he'll next do it in 超 #29, to satisfy the Zeno twins. It's not typical for him to do this just as part of an evolving fight, though sometimes he will transform into selected lower forms as an initial test of strength (before escalating to an appropriate form), to buy time, or for specific advantages. Beerus seems to notice the difference between SSj and SSj2, though - it becomes a bit of a gag that Zeno can't tell the difference between Goku's SSj and SSj2 in 超 #29, directly referencing Babidi's comment.
The Undying wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:06 amI love all the trivia you've been adding here as well -- it's nice to have all this stuff in one place and interspersed with thoughtful analysis.
To be honest, the trivia was initially put in just for completeness, so that there would be something to talk about for just about every conceivable thing I could think of - but nowadays, I find it among the most enjoyable stuff to write for the Re-Read. I enjoy looking for the Easter Eggs and other little details, and I think it's cool that Toyotarou takes the time to bother with them (like Tights's Calendar in 超 #6, where Jaco's taken a selfie with Beerus unwittingly in the background, referring to Revival of F).

It actually ended up being one of the things I missed in the Future Trunks arc, given its much more serious tone and the decision to go for more blatant (and sometimes clumsy) canon-welding - after 超 #14 and the Mr. Time reference, all those cute little details kind of dried up, which I felt was a shame. In the last instalment, the discussion of what's in Kuririn and #18's house and the discussion of Saiyan architecture and clothing on Universe 6 Sadala was the stuff I most enjoyed writing this time around.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:34 pm

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 33 - 36
Part 1 (Chapters 33 and 34)

Image

Allllrighty, then - Welcome back, one and all, to The Super Re-Read! We finished off Volume 7 last time around, so this fortnight's instalments cover Dragon Ball Super Volume 8, with the first portion of the actual Tournament of Power - this'll take us up to Chapter 36, and we get the set-up of the teams, Universe 7 goes out and does its thing, and we get the beginning of the encounter between Goku and Jiren. First of all, though, we've got the very beginning, and some early sneaky shenanigans from Freeza...

As ever, thanks and credit goes to Kanzenshuu and its contributors for creating the resources that makes topics like The Super Re-Read possible - the attempt to draw all of this together would be very much poorer without having these resources to refer to.

Okay, then - time to grab your manga and get re-reading...

Chapter 33 - Universe Survival! The Tournament of Power Begins!/Universe Survival! The Tournament of Power Begins!!
21 February 2018
Chapter Notes
  • I quite like the stage for the Tournament of Power - somewhere between a sundial and a spinning top. Various fans have noted the resonance between the stage looking like a child's plaything and the situation the mortals of these Universes find themselves in. Interestingly, the spinning top as a design will also appear in the Moro arc, for Saganbo's ship (it is explicitly described that way in 超 #56). In particular, I enjoy the patterns that run across the stage. The central pillar, it is noted later, serves as the marker for the passage of time - each notch represents 10 taks, or 4.8 minutes of the time available in the tournament. I think siting the tournament in the World of Void is unfortunate, in some ways - while it's good in the way that it saves Toyotarou from the burden of having to spend too much time on backgrounds, which must've been a real pain in the last arc, it also means that sometimes there's a jarring lack of depth in some panels, as the fighters appear without any sense that they're connected to the floor. I don't want to overstate it like it's a constant problem or anything, but it throws me out of the story from time to time.
  • While I understand the rationale of having some sort of fix that means the fighters will never 'accidentally/on purpose' start flying to save themselves from elimination, the explanation of having the space adjusted to each fighter so that they experience their own normal gravity and are unable to resist it - despite the fact that Bukujutsu is simply, according to Daizenshuu #7, ki being emitted from the whole body so it remains airborne - is, frankly, weird in a 'poke at it gently and there's something obviously wrong with it' sort of way. Since the technique just uses ki in a different way, it seems weirdly arbitrary to have stuff like ki blasts to push you back into the ring still be okay, but using ki in that specific way is somehow prevented, especially since flight is (according to Daizenshuu #7, again) equally basic as a technique. Eh, whatever.
  • Still, there are a couple of neat outcomes from the exchange to do with this - firstly, Roshi getting pulled up while trying to be all 'wise old master', and triggering Kuririn with memories of his menial training (from DB #30-32); and secondly, Goku referring to old Dragon Ball flightless combat as the "good old days", with Piccolo's muted and sceptical response - One would figure Piccolo, in particular, would be less enthusiastic than Goku, given the outcome of their battle in the final of the 23rd Budokai (see especially DB #193, for his out-of-bounds loss)...
  • There's a whole lot of triggering going on, as Caulifla delays the arrival of the Universe 6 team by insulting Autto Magetta, who is appropriately foetal, as in 超 #11. One is surprised that he responds so readily to her appeals to stop the rampaging Kale in 超 #38. Maybe, knowing how sensitive he is, he tries not to hold grudges?
  • It's fun to see that Hit's habit of keeping his hands in his pockets stays the same, even though 超 #35 will reveal a change in his general outlook. Goku refers to having promised to set up a rematch - this comes from 超 #13, though he notes that Hit still won't be allowed to use his full range of techniques, as killing still isn't allowed. It's cute to see Goku wave Hit off in the distance of another panel, too. There's a lot about them - particularly their interaction around their fight with Jiren in 超 #35 - that reminds one of the relationship between Goku and Piccolo. Goku's initial interaction with Jiren is much spikier and more awkward, but that's because of Jiren - as Goku notes, he's as abrasive and unapproachable as Vegeta; so, while the initial exchanges are unpromising, it nevertheless points up the possibility that Goku will catch Jiren's attention and form a similar sort of bond to the one he's made with Vegeta. This all flows from the theme of Goku's easy-going relationships that I noted in an earlier instalment; reflecting on Goku's 'rolodex', it contains monks, demons, assassins, aliens, genius billionaires, cyborgs, kings and tyrants, Gods of all levels up to the very top of existence, and will eventually gain a psycho (Broly), an Angel (Merus) a Space Police organisation (the Galactic Patrol), and the reincarnation of an evil destroyer (Uub) into the bargain. It's unsurprising the ease with which he approaches new people, and doesn't take it too hard even when they don't want to talk to him...
  • Favourite art: There's a lot here, and credit where credit's due, there's a really high art quality in the first couple of chapters of the battle generally. The panel that first focuses on Jiren and his super-chiselled glutes is very impactful in black-and-white, and I've mentioned how I like the opening shot of the chapter, and the wide shot of the battle later on is pretty effective, too - but in this particular chapter, the prize has to go to the fantastic splash pages showing off the Universe teams, and the double-page spread of Universe 7's team in particular. It's totally unsurprising that it got used for promotional purposes as well, as it's a great piece - even if Kuririn and Roshi, in particular, are almost certainly too short. But in the Universe team splashes, the point I noted above (about the feeling that in some drawings, the characters float on nothing without a proper background) finds a quite literal expression in the Universe 2 team panel, as Vikal and Kakunsa appear to be floating above the level of the rest of the fighters (Vikal quite obviously and literally so), and quite literally on nothing. It's interesting that the interstitial for 超 #39 will show us this line-up again, but with the awkward characters in a more natural line-up. Was this perhaps the original drawing, which needed to be oddly changed up with a digital 'cut-and-paste' to fit the framing in this chapter?
  • It's interesting that the aged Zarbuto, of Universe 2, may have seen Zeno before, as he's surprised that there are two of Him now. Of course, it may just be inference that there should be only one such, but it bespeaks a slightly higher knowledge of the divine hierarchy than most of the competitors probably have.
  • Shin takes the opportunity to stress the theme of Teamwork one last time, before half the team go off and do whatever they want anyway. I like Piccolo's grin in reaction to it; it seems fitting for his character that he's responsible enough to play ball as part of the team because he knows it's the right way to go about it, but in his heart of hearts sympathises with the wild individualism of the other half of the team. One suspects that, prior to his reintegration with Kami, at least, he might well have done the same.
  • Android #17 gets the first elimination of the Tournament, so far as we are shown, on Universe 10's Murisarm. It's fun to see him go off on a tear from the outset, roping in Rubalt and Zium into a cute little show of force, including leaping above a flying opponent to well and truly deck him. I also like Freeza's opportunistic approach to picking off fighters (which will get an excellent development in 超 #34) - both approaches seem to fit the characters really well.
  • I get the feeling that Ribrianne's attention is drawn, not so much by #18 knocking out two of her teammates (Prum and Jimeze) easily, but rather due to her reference to her looks. Of course, Ribrianne regarding herself as beautiful/powerful and #18 as ugly(/weak?) will come up as one of the main exchanges of 超 #36.
  • Of all 5 'individualist' fighters from Universe, 7, Goku probably gets in deepest, drawn by his fight-crush on Jiren to take on 6 of his team-mates at once (Tupper, Zoiray, Kahseral, Kunshi, Vuon, and Kettol). He'll follow up by taking on Dyspo and Toppo in 超 #35, before butting in on Jiren - the only Pride Trooper he doesn't appear to tangle with is Cocotte. He establishes pretty early on that he's stronger than all of these 6 troopers just using ordinary SSj, and is skilled enough to counter their teamwork. This will become a significant plot point again in 超 #38, when the same team, plus Cocotte, manage to neutralise the much stronger Legendary Saiyan Kale, but this will combine with another emergent theme of the proper wielding of power (which Kale cannot do).
  • It's possible to over-stress this point, but whatever, I'mma gonna do that anyway: Goku's approach to Jiren bears vague resemblance to a weird sort of courtship dance between a bold and determined suitor and the uninterested object of his pursuit. The beats are generally there: introduction and rebuff, attempts to catch the eye and demonstrate prowess (as right here, where he frets that Jiren isn't noticing him), a period where he comes on too strong and gets flatly rejected, followed by the demonstration of a quality that finally catches Jiren's notice and picks Goku out as having a certain je ne sais quoi. There follows determined attempts to impress and hold interest on Goku's part, followed by boredom and a 'dumping' after a last dramatic effort to keep said interest; before Goku gets a pep-talk from a father figure, and the whole thing escalates to a new level and Jiren ends up with eyes only for Goku. I'm sure there's plenty wrong with the take on Goku and Jiren's interaction as pseudo-romantic, but I just have to get it down at this stage.
  • So, the wide shot. Let's see who we can see fighting, from right to left (some of these identifications are a bit tentative; I'll mark them with a big ole ?? - for some of the competitors, it will be pretty much all we see of them in the whole Tournament:
    • Obuni (Universe 10) vs. Conflee (Universe 9)
    • Hopp (Universe 9) vs. Murichim (Universe 10)
    • Majora (Universe 4) vs. Rozel (Universe 9) - I assume they're fighting each other
    • Monna (Universe 4) vs. Botamo (Universe 6)
    • Magetta (Universe 6) vs. Maji Kayo (Universe 3)??
    • Hyssop (Universe 9) vs. Jilcol (Universe 10)
    • Lilibeu (Universe 10) vs. ??
    • Hermila (Universe 2) vs. Shosa (Universe 4)
    • Napapa (Universe 10) vs. Saonel and Pirina (Universe 6)
    • Bergamo, Lavender and Basil (Universe 9) vs. Bollarator, Panchia, and Kotsukai (Universe 3)
    • Cabbe (Universe 6)?? vs. Chappil (Universe 9)??
    • Ganos (Universe 4) vs. ??
    • Darcoli (Universe 4) vs. Sorel (Universe 9)
    • Zirloin (Universe 2) vs. ??
    • Zarbuto (Universe 2) vs. Mechiorp (Universe 10)
    • Zium (Universe 10) vs. Rabanra (Universe 2)??
    • The Preecho (Universe 3) vs. Rozie (Universe 2)
    • Cocotte (Universe 11) vs. ??
    Assuming all these identifications are correct, then we see 5 fighters from Universe 2, 5 from Universe 3, 5 from Universe 4 (of course, 2 more may be in the shot unseen), 4 from Universe 6, 0 from Universe 7 (who get more than enough pages anyway ;) ), 9 from Universe 9 (only Oregano is not represented, but is shown getting choked out by Universe 6's Frost in the next panels), 7 from Universe 10, and 1 from Universe 11 - so, 36 fighters, plus some completely unidentifiable fighters in the background. Given that we know what most of Universes 7 and 11 are doing from other pages, we've got a view of the majority of the field at this point in time.
  • Speaking of which, I should probably give the running tallies of eliminations:
    • Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Vegeta: 2 Eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Freeza: 1 Elimination (Rubalt of Universe 10); Android #17: 1 elimination (Murisarm of Universe 10).
    • So far as can be determined, the remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe after 10 taks are as follows:
      Universe 2: 8 (Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Zirloin, Zarbuto, Hermila, Vikal, Rabanra, Prum, Jimeze)
      Universe 3: 9 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, The Preecho, Nigrisshi, Narirama, Viara, Katoplesa)
      Universe 4: 9 (Ganos, Damon, Gamisaras, Shosa, Darcoli, Majora, Shantza, Kyawei, Monna, Nink)
      Universe 6: 10 (Hit, Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Botamo, Frost, Dr. Rota)
      Universe 7: 10 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Son Gohan, Android #17, Android #18, Piccolo, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan)
      Universe 9: 10 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
      Universe 10: 8 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
      Universe 11: 10 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)
    We're way less than 5 minutes in, however - possibly only seconds have passed - as the 4.8-minute mark is only passed near the end of the next chapter.
  • And, of course, we get the hook for the next chapter; I really enjoy the way Freeza goes about this, but I think it's best saved for the next issue.
Chapter 34 - The First Annihilated Universe/The First Doomed Universe
21 March 2018
Chapter Notes
  • Of course, Kuririn is first to go. As Beerus mentions, he "didn't even do anything" at this stage. I seem to recall a three-minute uproar about his 'showing', which (as I've indicated earlier) is beside the point and a very narrow view of the team dynamic. I find an interesting story, good character work and an overall team interaction more meaningful than simply an aggregation of 'good showings'. I think it's really a lot more interesting to see Freeza use Kuririn as a pawn to manipulate Frost, gain his trust and have Kuririn come through with something more useful (and doing double-duty as a serviceable gag) from the stands later in 超 #36. The Moro arc will show the reverse of this, where everyone seems to have a place plotted out to have their little fighting 'moment', particularly in 超 #56-57...and unsurprisingly, the pacing of the arc sags significantly at this stage. In this sense, the integration of the characters seems more compact and skilful in this arc, particularly for a situation that is not just a fight, but also a race against time.
  • I like the overall gimmick of the Trio de Dangers, that they should have excellent teamwork that makes them much more impressive than any of them are individually. Coming early in the tournament like it does, it 'bookends' the plot structure with Goku and Vegeta's similarly flawless teamwork putting Jiren under similar pressure. So while on the one hand it's a little bit deflating to see Gohan having to work so hard - even at rather less than full power - against 3 sub-Piccolo fighters, and it sort of upturns the established Dragon Ball tendency with respect to 'strength in numbers' (as though, for instance, the three Namekian fighters could've stood up to Dodoria in DB #254, instead of getting ruthlessly merked like they did), on the other hand it's surely fitting to see the indefinable force-multiplier of teamwork run through the arc as its golden thread, and get a concrete airing as the thing that makes the difference here.
  • I like how Universe 9 is actually built up to be a credible threat with decent fighters who work well together - being a total failure of a Universe in terms of mortal level doesn't necessarily mean anything when it comes to a fight. Although they are all weaker than Universe 6's Frost (and the Trio de Dangers all appear to be weaker than Piccolo, more specifically - Hyssop appears to be on his level, though); they don't appear to be the least capable team overall (this would probably go to Universes 2 or 10, who are 'also-rans' to the core - Universe 3 have a fusion in store, even though Kale makes short work of it in 超 #38, and Universe 4 are able to use some tricks to do some damage). Apart from just being a more enjoyable read, it also shows us the clearsightedness of Freeza's judgement in getting someone else to do the heavy lifting.
  • Tenshinhan gets the chance to fire off a Kikoho before getting dumped out. It's interesting that his massive blast gets Goku's attention, but not in any way does it occur to him to pay attention to the aftermath...
  • Knowing as we do now that Roshi has his pseudo-Ultra Instinct to use and eliminate much stronger opponents (like Kahseral in 超 #39), it's tempting to think on an alternative series of events where Goku didn't jump in - though Roshi's response is treated as mere bluster by Frost, and his protestations when Goku jumps in provoked mirth in the fandom at the time, it's clear now he was quite serious. To have Goku jump in like that is a natural character decision, and allows Roshi's abilities to remain hidden for the big reveal later - but I get the impression that we are supposed to understand, in retrospect, that Roshi has been quietly using the ability throughout in order to be able to tangle with the other fighters he encounters, who are presumably all stronger than him, but not special enough for his survival to be noticeable until the field has thinned.
  • Before Frost fires in, Gohan says he'll have to use his full power, despite Piccolo's cautions. This is in response to the prospect of fighting all of Universe 9's fighters at once, so I get the feeling that Gohan thinks he could probably do it at full power, despite the trouble he keeps having with the Trio de Dangers. Given what Frost does immediately afterwards, though, that certainly seems plausible.
  • On that note, I completely love Frost's tear on Universe 9. It's a good blend of power, humour, and character (note how he blasts Oregano off first, having previously strangled this "smart mouth" fighter with his tail, saying he'll have to "put them in their place", or getting squished under Hyssop's fist, or essentially cooking the fish-man Conflee with his ki explosion), and it's really dynamically conveyed. What's more, it really tips the balance of power in the battle, as Universe 9 hadn't lost anyone so far, and was in a strong position and putting Universe 7 in particular under pressure - Frost cracks open the team here, and after losing 7 of the team members in short order, it just becomes a matter of time before Universe 9 goes down. The field doesn't change this dramatically again until 超 #36, when Gamisaras and Damon take out a similar number of fighters (though very few of them are really that significant - Piccolo is probably the strongest of those eliminated), and 超 #38 in particular, when Kale and Kefla devastate the field overall, leaving just a handful of competitors.
  • Favourite art: Everything about the "Never Trust Anyone" exchange and Frost's elimination is excellently judged. The hand reaching out of nowhere to grab Frost, stiff with shock, as Freeza doesn't even look at him, he knows so well what he wants to do, and that he can do it. Then, the beat before the cocky little whisper, and the savage kick - it's a great little bit. I also enjoy Freeza's various interruptions into the action, as when he abruptly kicks Bergamo off the stage and gives Piccolo a condescending smile when saying he's the only one who understands how this works - Freeza's clearly in his element and enjoying himself hugely, and the art shows that really well.
  • Looking at Freeza's calculation here, it's a pretty good one - lose 2 of the weakest Universe 7 fighters, in exchange for 8 stronger opponents at essentially no personal effort, and the breaking of an opposing team overall (and one of the more effective teamworking Universes, at that). Of course, it's also totally in-character for Freeza to look at 'friend' and foe alike as totally expendable for his own ends, rather than seeing that they may have intrinsic or even broader instrumental value; ironically, his willingness to sacrifice Roshi to get rid of some admittedly tricky also-rans in the short term could've ended up dooming the whole team later on, since Roshi held the key for Goku to make enough headway against Jiren to save Universe 7 - so, characteristically, Freeza is subtle and manipulative, but his outlook blinds him to the value of his erstwhile comrades. It also points up his self-centredness, as he's saving his own energy for later (which he will do again in 超 #39, as he sits back and lets his teammates do the fighting). Which is what makes him a villain, I suppose. Even so, his trickiness will pay off when he actually combines with (rather than just uses) the other arch-loner on the team, Android #17, to secure the win in 超 #42.
  • Gohan and Piccolo indulge in some team-breaking of their own by splitting up and not fighting together, provoking the Trio de Dangers to do the same. This underscores the value of teamwork here, as Bergamo makes an error in deciding to take Piccolo one-on-one, whereas Lavender and Basil are still able to give Gohan difficulty together (as in the real world, dividing one's forces is always risky, and often courts disaster). It's also a nice little inversion to see the two Universe 7 fighters who might be expected to work best together ultimately hit upon a solution to cracking a highly effective opposing team, by abandoning teamwork in the most obvious sense.
  • I do like the beat where Piccolo hesitates to casually doom a whole other Universe (he wouldn't have done that, once upon a time - as in, any time before DB #223); I'm glad problems like this do occur to the characters involved (compare with 超 #30, when Jiren says he's not willing to doom other Universes to save his own - which, in a way, he makes good on, only eliminating a handful of opponents: Hit, Roshi, and Vegeta; which balances out with the losses from his own team that he's arguably responsible for: Toppo, Dyspo, and himself, at least, if not also the rest when he refuses to help against Kefla). The beat of stunned horror when Universe 9 actually is erased is also in keeping here, and I like that The Grand Priest feels the need to remind the combatants that time continues to tick away, and insists that they continue. While Bergamo's point is motivated by desperation, and it's worth asking whether he'd hesitate if the roles were reversed, it might've been interesting if they'd tried to contrive a way for one representative from each Universe to survive till the end, each having eliminated the same number of competitors - however, it's then something akin to the Prisoner's Dilemma, in which betraying the other teams would be a more certain (and therefore tempting) way of securing survival. So, the balance of probability was always in favour of a straight fight to the finish, here. It's worth noting that, conveniently enough, almost all the final, 'killing' blows on the Universes are struck either by an out-and-out villain (Freeza, as with Universes 9 and 11), or a competitor on a mindless rampage (Kale, as with Universes 2, 3, 4, and 10). The only exception is Gohan, who dooms Universe 6 in a Double-K.O., making it seem a little less clinical; in this way, the arc manages mostly to sidestep the moral implications after having raised them the first time here. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that.
  • As The Grand Priest speaks, the first notch on the central pillar comes down, indicating that Universe 9 was eliminated just seconds before the 4.8-minute (10 tak) mark. So, 90 taks remain by the end of the Chapter.
  • After 10 taks, the running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
    • Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Freeza: 5 Eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Vegeta: 2 Eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Android #17: 1 elimination (Murisarm of Universe 10).
    • So far as can be determined, the remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe after 10 taks are as follows:
      Universe 2: 8 (Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Zirloin, Zarbuto, Hermila, Vikal, Rabanra, Prum, Jimeze)
      Universe 3: 7 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, The Preecho, Nigrisshi, Katoplesa, Narirama, Viara)
      Universe 4: 8 (Ganos, Damon, Gamisaras, Shosa, Darcoli, Majora, Shantza, Kyawei, Monna, Nink)
      Universe 6: 8 (Hit, Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Botamo, Frost, Dr. Rota)
      Universe 7: 8 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Son Gohan, Android #17, Android #18, Piccolo, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan)
      Universe 9: 0 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
      Universe 10: 8 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
      Universe 11: 10 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)
    That's all for now - Part 2 will be coming at the end of the week as usual, with Chapters 34 and 35...

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:29 am

It's a really interesting observation that Belmod playing dead during the exhibition match is the same technique U7 ultimately uses to win the whole thing against Belmod's own universe. I remember wondering what that was trying to imply with that, just reading it as Belmod being stronger than he was letting on.

It has more interesting implications to me thinking about it now. The GoDs were specifically told that they have to go all out in the fight, and well, Belmod clearly just ended up faking it by the end and totally got away with it. It was the first sign that even the grand priest won't be necessarily all seeing during the tournament, and sure enough neither 2 zenos or the Grand Priest notice that 17 is actually alive after he fakes a self destruct as even they can't sense him.

This almost makes me wish that there could have been some narrative reason for 17 to tag along with Goku and co during the exhibition match and make that same observation (off panel to not give too much away for the ending).

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:13 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:29 am It's a really interesting observation that Belmod playing dead during the exhibition match is the same technique U7 ultimately uses to win the whole thing against Belmod's own universe. I remember wondering what that was trying to imply with that, just reading it as Belmod being stronger than he was letting on.

It has more interesting implications to me thinking about it now. The GoDs were specifically told that they have to go all out in the fight, and well, Belmod clearly just ended up faking it by the end and totally got away with it. It was the first sign that even the grand priest won't be necessarily all seeing during the tournament, and sure enough neither 2 zenos or the Grand Priest notice that 17 is actually alive after he fakes a self destruct as even they can't sense him.

This almost makes me wish that there could have been some narrative reason for 17 to tag along with Goku and co during the exhibition match and make that same observation (off panel to not give too much away for the ending).
Thanks for your reply!

There's another way to read #17's winning moment, of course, and that's to say that he resolves both of the Inter-Universe Tournaments that have been held at Zeno's behest - that is, he wins the Tournament of Power by playing 'Hide-and-Seek'.

It's fitting that this should be so, since Beerus voided that tournament and ruined Zeno's enjoyment, leading all the other Gods of Destruction to bear a grudge against him; a mortal from Beerus's Universe gives Zeno the gratification of having played the game with a "fun plan", and wins the current Tournament in so doing, and then wishes back all the erased Universes. So ultimately, the trouble caused by Beerus 'way back when' is thematically ameliorated in this way.

If looked at a certain way, perhaps a through-line of Dragon Ball Super is one of Beerus's interaction with mortals providing opportunities to make up for some of the trouble caused by his general jerkitude: as another example, the Universe 6 Tournament is born from the animus between Champa and Beerus and their respective access to tasty food, but Universe 7's victory opens the way for Beerus to restore Champa's Earth using the Super Dragon Balls.

Maybe Chapter 67 will touch off a new arc that enables the team to make amends for Beerus's own negligence throughout this arc having led to Merus's erasure - or maybe his jerkiness will finally catch up with him this time...

Just some scattered thoughts.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:33 pm

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 33 - 36
Part 2 (Chapters 35 and 36)

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Ahoy, there, and welcome back to The Super Re-Read! We're finishing off Volume 8 of the Dragon Ball Super Manga, and passing a genuine milestone: The Super Re-Read has irrevocably passed the half-way point on the Dragon Ball Super Manga: here's to bringing it home, however long that may be! Anyway, this time around, we're covering the first encounter between Goku and the main antagonist of the arc, Jiren, and...the ensuing 5 minutes of action, I guess is the best way of describing it.

As ever, thanks and credit goes to Kanzenshuu and its contributors and predecessors for creating the resources that the Super Re-Read shamelessly cribs from - they're always used throughout, so they've always earned this credit strapline. Go check out the Translations Archive and the Herms Guide Guide in particular.

Anyway, plunging in to the second half of this instalment - hope you've got your manga to hand; let's get re-reading!

Chapter 35 - Hit vs Jiren/Hit vs. Jiren
21 April 2018
Chapter Notes
  • Given the lesson he got taught back in 超 #29, it's surprising to see Goku back at it again, not just with Toppo, but with Dyspo into the bargain as well, in just SSj2. Dyspo casually says he's "not half bad", and is clearly too much for Goku at this level. He says to Cabbe in 超 #38 that unlike the other Pride Troopers, he's "actually a force to be reckoned with", and in 超 #40 he'll note that he's tired himself out from fighting Android #17 (the perfect fighter to counter him, given #17's infinite stamina). I'd guess this probably puts Dyspo somewhere in the SSj3+ tier of power, perhaps shading towards God tier.
  • Of course, Goku's rationale is still to catch Jiren's eye by tangling with his colleagues - this is the logical next step in the escalation, and he'll soon lose patience, go all the way and butt in on Jiren's fight with Hit. That Goku doesn't actually eliminate any opponents at all in the Tournament of Power has been remarked upon, but I think it's in keeping with his character - he's only really excited by the strongest challenge there is, so tangling with others who can't match him for the sake of padding his own numbers wouldn't be like him. From this chapter onwards, he'll be almost solely fighting Jiren until the end (with the exception of Damon's brief interruption in 超 #36). In a way, Goku and Freeza are acting in a similar manner in this battle, but to ends that are characteristic (and in their own way, also polar opposites) - Freeza is using others to eliminate competitors, survive, and expend as little effort fighting as possible, and will ultimately be responsible, one way or another, for the most eliminations of all Universe 7's team. Goku is using others to climb the ladder to the strongest challenge, so he can have the best fight possible - he'll secure no eliminations, but will be key to the most important battle of the whole tournament (as will Freeza). It's another interesting way that Goku and Freeza's characters have come to align, even as they diverge, and their actions will pair together by the end.
  • This is the chapter that well and truly introduces Jiren as The Wall - Goku literally says as much when fighting him, but it's doubly true for his overall character. He rarely speaks (as Toriyama insisted to the Anime staff, who were apparently set to make Jiren all chatty and JAHH-STEECE), and it's often to shut others down when he does; he never addresses even his teammates by their names - which will be an important sign that he is actually impressed, when he addresses Son Goku by name at the end of this Chapter, and likewise when he does the same for Vegeta in 超 #40 - and he can't be budged even by the fiercest onslaughts his opponents can muster; he's impassive, upright, and a seemingly immovable obstacle to Goku's victory; but he's also the goal - Goku has to get over Jiren to win (in this chapter, he says 'push past', which doesn't go so well for him). On the other hand, Jiren is also solitary and unyielding, and, 超 #41-42 will reveal, uncomprehendingly unresponsive - as in 'talking to a brick wall' - since he never truly understood what his master wanted and just did something else, which is why he is the way he is now. These are the corresponding faults that flow from his status as 'The Wall', as he just stands there and fails to work with his colleagues because he doesn't think he needs them. Fans have criticised Jiren's relatively spare ("boring") characterisation, and that's fair enough, I suppose, but the way I see it, the point of Jiren is simply to stand there as a seemingly impossible obstacle - as a presence that looms over the whole scenario. I think that, at least, is effectively conveyed. Even if Jiren is personally 'boring', he's still highly memorable.
  • Favourite art: I think the whole exchange between Goku and Hit on the one hand, and Jiren on the other, is pretty well-choreographed on the whole; the best single piece of art probably has to be Jiren's final K.O. of Hit, though. But having said this, I think 超 #35 probably showcases the weakest art in the whole arc - there are instances that should be visually impactful, but which I think look a bit static and flat (most notably the panel where Hit kicks Jiren away to save Goku - I think it's supposed to suspend us in the 'beat', but it just seems a little lacking to me), and a number of pieces where it's clear Toyotarou has really struggled with depiction, mostly in the small panels (see, for instance, such panels as when Hit lands after getting booted away by Jiren, where he is very awkwardly placed and scaled next to Goku; Hit's first power-up panel looks quite stiff and awkward; the corresponding standing panel of Jiren has super-weird proportions and it looks like his spindly little legs aren't actually standing on anything, either; and the Universe 6 reaction panel to Hit's elimination is very sketchy). I'm usually not this critical of Toyotarou's work, but a lot of these weaker moments are more noticeable in this chapter than elsewhere, I think. There's also a high tendency to indulge in reaction shots and panels catching characters in the middle of movements, which fans have also commented on in the past - I think all his weaknesses as an artist quite noticeably come out to play together in this chapter, whereas they're either more isolated or better kept in check in other chapters. While it's not trash by any means - there's plenty of good stuff still in it overall - I think it could have been a bit more judiciously storyboarded with fewer panels for reactions and the like, allowing for more space and better flow; most of the criticisms I have here probably stem from that.
  • One gets a slightly irritated little thrill from Jiren offhandedly forcing Goku back to the edge of the arena and then adding insult to injury by calling him a nameless also-ran. I don't think we've ever really had anyone shove Goku's incapability in his face quite so bluntly and disrespectfully before - not even Raditz or Freeza, who probably are the two others who proportionately overpowered Goku the most in the past. Everyone else who's shown themselves superior to him has tended to give him a certain amount of respect, backhanded or otherwise (e.g. Piccolo Daimao, Vegeta, the Androids, Cell), or else just flattened him in a businesslike manner and didn't bother to rub it in (e.g. Tao Pai Pai), so it's interesting to see another new dynamic come out of Jiren's bluntness.
  • The feel of the fight obviously calls back Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz, especially in DB #200-201, only with Hit playing Piccolo's role. Jiren is similarly unmoved by the efforts of his opponents, even when they fight side by side (as with the fight with Raditz, one hesitates to call the initial assault true teamwork, in the sense that this arc has been pushing). Of course, there's also the beat that Hit/Piccolo has a brand new full-power technique up his sleeve, created to defeat Goku and that he can only do a limited number of times, and that requires Goku's help to make work against this new and overwhelmingly powerful enemy. Of course, the real pay-off is where Goku subverts this pattern and counts himself out of teamworking with Hit, which dismays everyone watching.
  • Goku's refusal to fight with Hit in the hope of beating Jiren has, naturally, been criticised as selfish. On one level, that's unarguable. It's not often that Goku insists on fighting an individual one-on-one (often enough, it turns out that way naturally due to him being the only hero capable of fighting the main antagonist) - the last time he refused the help of others was at the 23rd Budokai, where he cited the "pride of a martial artist" - Roshi notes that "The only thing that gets him really excited...is fighting an opponent worthy of him..." No doubt some of that excitement and sheer pridefulness exists here also (and Goku mentions again in 超 #42 that he wanted to fight Jiren one-on-one). However, there's also a certain amount of insight here - Goku knows that he and Hit are both nothing to Jiren, and it'll become clear to him that Jiren is holding back deliberately even when Hit seems to have him on the ropes. Goku 'knows' the answer to winning the battle isn't what Hit is proposing (though he's at a loss himself as to what the answer is, as he implies and as will become painfully clear), so steering clear of it is at least partly Goku's fighting insight.
  • I like Hit's Time Lag - it's a clever adaptation of the tricks we've already seen Hit use in 超 #12-13, but with none of the obvious flaws of Time Skipping. But really, it's Hit's mention of True Strength that is most significant, in my view. It's essentially another theme of this arc, and the centre of Goku's development going forward. Hit has been honing his power in the hope of matching Goku - he's been shown that his gimmicks are nothing to "true" strength. Goku taught him that lesson before, and Jiren teaches him that lesson all over again (only more painfully this time). And Jiren, as I've said, stands at the centre of this arc as an obstacle of obvious, even outrageous, power. No-one can say he isn't the pinnacle of the concept of strength, and Goku is drawn to match and surpass that in the same way - which, unsurprisingly, he can't. By 超 #39, he's totally out of ideas, but still thinking the same way. It's only when Roshi questions him on "What's strength mean to you?" that it becomes clear that the arc is setting up contrasting visions of strength, which will lead Son Goku to discover Ultra Instinct for himself. The opposition of these conceptions will continue into 超 #41, when an under-pressure Jiren will exclaim "attacks that exploit openings...are not true strength!!" Jiren is the apex of the most obvious reckoning of strength (which Roshi derides as "plain old fighting strength", and "no way to measure things"), whereas Goku will move towards a wholly different conception of strength that relies on divine power honing the quality of his movement. This new pursuit of strength, and the challenge it presents to preconceptions, will continue into the Moro arc, where Goku will seek the power of Ultra Instinct to fight Moro in 超 #59-60, but will wield it in a way that aligns with a conventional understanding of strength...and fails utterly. He will finally achieve what he seeks - and we will see the incredible power it affords - in 超 #64.
  • I like the little beat where Jiren's mouth opens slightly, as a 'tell' that he's about to get serious and deck Hit. I also like that while Jiren's not at all impressed by Goku's strength, he is intrigued by his clarity of insight - and of course, rewards him by addressing him by name.
  • Hit is, of course, the only elimination shown in this issue, so, the running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
    • Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Freeza: 5 Eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Vegeta: 2 Eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Android #17: 1 elimination (Murisarm of Universe 10); Jiren: 1 elimination (Hit of Universe 6).
    • So far as can be determined, the remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe are as follows:
      Universe 2: 8 (Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Zirloin, Zarbuto, Hermila, Vikal, Rabanra, Prum, Jimeze)
      Universe 3: 7 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, The Preecho, Nigrisshi, Katoplesa, Narirama, Viara)
      Universe 4: 8 (Ganos, Damon, Gamisaras, Shosa, Darcoli, Majora, Shantza, Kyawei, Monna, Nink)
      Universe 6: 7 (Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Botamo, Hit, Frost, Dr. Rota)
      Universe 7: 8 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Son Gohan, Android #17, Android #18, Piccolo, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan)
      Universe 9: 0 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
      Universe 10: 8 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
      Universe 11: 10 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)
Chapter 36 - Quirky Competitors/Quirky Competitors
21 May 2018
Chapter Notes
  • We get another prideful burst from Vegeta early on, when he's accounted as "second-best" next to Goku. Given the reconciliation Vegeta achieved in DB #510, many fans regard moments like this as some sort of 'regression', as they did when Vegeta swore he would defeat Goku in the revised Kanzenban version of DB #519's ending. More specifically, I see the phrase "Cell arc" thrown around to describe the place Vegeta is at. I don't really see it; he's definitely moved on from a confession of hatred (see DB #351) to a much healthier place, and has shown, in his own way, some of the kindness that he identified as Goku's saving grace in DB #510. I don't think that needs to mean that he's given up on aiming for the top (as he puts it in 超 #40), or for continuing to identify Goku as his most relevant challenge. Piccolo mentions off-hand in 超 #12 that Vegeta doesn't like Goku (partially because Goku doesn't return his animus), Vegeta volunteers to beat up Black on the basis that he looks like Goku in 超 #18, and he calls Goku "the biggest pain in my butt" in 超 #26. And I think it's natural for some of the animus to remain, even though it isn't as toxic as it was when he tried to express what the problem was back in DB #457; but Vegeta partly identifies himself by how he relates to Goku, and has done for years. The residual negativity seems to just bubble up as faint exasperation at some of Goku's tendencies (mostly that he's an idiot), as well as frustration at himself for not being able to seize the top spot for himself (as indicated in 超 #27, 超 #40, and 超 #51) - he still has things to prove to himself, as well as to others (as here). Besides which, Dyspo was just being rude.
  • Favourite art: I like the whole sequence for SSjB Vegeta. I'm particularly fond of the two panels of him charging, and the sequence of kicks, apart from being an enjoyable nod to the 'brute force' aspect of Vegeta's character in simply kicking at Toppo till he breaks through his guard, it also gives me a reminder of Vegeta's vicious assault on Frost back in 超 #11, which I very much enjoyed at the time. His self-satisfied smile at the end of it is precious. Elsewhere, we know that quite a lot of this chapter was redrawn and rewritten (particularly portions of the #18/Ribrianne fight), which I think I'll cover then and there - though I do enjoy the panel that shows #18 getting knocked out; I think that one's very effective.
  • Android #17 rubber-banding Botamo with a big ol' punch is a cute little beat, and is a new kind of comic de-escalation to do with Botamo's powers. Whereas 超 #9 de-escalated from Goku perhaps needing to use his full power, only to end up with dragging him along helplessly and tossing him out of the ring for an easy win, this has Piccolo insist that Botamo can only be defeated one way...for #17 to be all like 'nah, i'mma just punch this guy' and win just fine.
  • Universe 11 has Jenga, Universe 10 has Sumo Wrestlers. Okay.
  • The elimination of Napapa, Zium and Mechiorp feels like a very 'anime-inspired' sort of beat: the three land neatly together to give a reaction and get swiftly K.O'ed. No criticism on that score, just my feeling that it's a slightly unusual beat for the manga so far.
  • I wonder at Beerus's "..." when Shin notes Universe 7 has some of the best combatants in the Tournament. Perhaps he has Jiren in mind, or perhaps he's simply loath to admit that this fighting format probably suits his Universe better than the "some other way" he mentioned in 超 #30, after all.
  • Despite their status as a Universe of total fodder, it's worth noting that from the Universe 10 crew, Murichim takes on Android #17 (we also saw him take on both Saonel and Pirina at the same time earlier), Obuni fights Piccolo, and Jilcol fights Gohan without any of them getting knocked out until Gamisaras and Damon come along. I don't want to suggest that they're fighting evenly by any means, but it's interesting that they can last at all.
  • So, the scene between Android #18 and Ribrianne has been reworked throughout, artistically and in script. Toriyama has paid particular attention to redrawing #18, and it helps the comic beats land better. However, I'm not sure the rescripting always helps with clarity. For instance, Toyotarou's initial draft makes crystal clear that Ribrianne's planet is unique in seeing beauty the way it does, and that Heles isn't considered ugly in Universe 2 more generally. Rescripting this to "Shove it. That planet's an exception!" raises the question of whether it's supposed to mean the same thing as Toyotarou indicated, or whether she instead means that Ribrianne's planet produces exceptional beauties like Ribrianne, but otherwise Heles is 'all that'. But it's a characteristically Toriyama twist to make the 'beauty' all about being able to fight, rather than it being intrinsic to some inverted standards held by another Universe, as in the original draft.
  • I very much enjoy the gag about Kuririn being an Adonis on Ribrianne's planet, though. I've mentioned already that I prefer this involvement from Kuririn in disabling Ribrianne, which is much more useful than anything he might've done from inside the ring. It's a characteristic gag about his appearance, of a type that feels like it belongs in classic Dragon Ball. And I enjoy the way that, as Ribrianne's confidence ebbs, her attack names are less 'beautiful', and less powerful (and I love the way #18 steps daintily above the Damaged Hair Panic, in particular). There's also a teamwork element to this interaction, as Ribrianne comes with her boosters Rozie and Kakunsa, who help her pin down #18 and try to keep her in the fight by reassuring her of her beauty - after all, they're "in this together, come what may"; and of course, Kuririn's intervention is a piece of teamwork of its own sort.
  • Of course, Dragon Ball has shown us an invisible fighter before - in particular, The Invisible Man was one of Baba's fighters in DB #100; while Kuririn came up with, shall we say, and imaginative solution back then (referenced by Roshi in the anime version of Dragon Ball Super, I believe), Piccolo takes out Gamisaras by sensing his ki and attacking. This is kind of fitting, given that when Yamcha and the Saibaiman vanished from sight way back in DB #215, it was Piccolo who upbraided Gohan with a prickly "They're moving at super speed, idiot! Feel their ki!! Everyone can see them but you!". On that note, I think this might be the first time we've seen a visual representation of ki while it is being sensed in the manga. With Piccolo focused and attuned to this particular sense, it's perhaps not surprising that his superb hearing (see, e.g., DB #335) doesn't come into play in time to figure out what's up with Damon.
  • It's been noted in interviews elsewhere that Piccolo's elimination specifically was detailed in Toriyama's outline here; apparently, each of the fighters had specifications made for the circumstances of their elimination - while this is true for some, one may question this overall, however, given the radical differences between the manga and anime versions for some of these eliminations. As the manga trailed the anime by a long way in this arc (in the anime, Piccolo had been eliminated on 10 December 2017, nearly 6 months prior to the publication of this issue), one is tempted to speculate that for at least some of these, changes were made in draft to keep some surprises for readers, as well as giving Toyotarou enough creative license.
  • I really like that Damon's attack on Android #17 sends him straight through Jiren and Goku's fight, thus interrupting it and changing up the dynamic. I feel like this particular beat could've happened at least a couple more times in this arc without getting old; it helps give a further sense of the "jumble" that Toriyama mentioned in outline.
  • I guess one takeaway from the fact #17 can hear Damon moving is that the Androids perhaps have enhanced sensory input? That would certainly make sense.
  • We're told 33 minutes remain, so about 15 minutes (or around 30 taks) have passed. After 30 taks, then, the running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
    • Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Android #17: 6 eliminations (Murisarm, Napapa, Zium, and Mechiorp of Universe 10, Botamo of Universe 6, Damon of Universe 4); Gamisaras: 6* eliminations (Android #18 of Universe 7, Ribrianne, Rozie, and Kakunsa of Universe 2, Murichim and Jilcol of Universe 10); Freeza: 5 Eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Piccolo: 2 eliminations (Jirasen of Universe 10, Gamisaras of Universe 4); Vegeta: 2 eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Jiren: 1 elimination (Hit of Universe 6); Damon: 1* elimination (Piccolo of Universe 7). *Note: some of the eliminations credited to Gamisaras may properly be ascribed to Damon).
    • We get a very helpful summary of who's out and who's still in at the end of the chapter, so the remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe are as follows:
      Universe 2: 3 (Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Prum, Jimeze, Hermila, Vikal)
      Universe 3: 7 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, The Preecho, Nigrisshi, Katoplesa, Narirama, Viara)
      Universe 4: 4 (Ganos, Shosa, Darcoli, Shantza, Damon, Gamisaras, Monna, Nink, Majora, Kyawei)
      Universe 6: 6 (Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Hit, Frost, Botamo, Dr. Rota)
      Universe 7: 6 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Son Gohan, Android #17, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Android #18, Piccolo)
      Universe 9: 0 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
      Universe 10: 1 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
      Universe 11: 10 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)
  • So, we're well and truly into the combat phase of the arc, but there's still 5-and-a-half Chapters remaining, so we've got a little more than half of it left. I think it's fair to call the second half much stronger than the first. That's partly due to the climactic nature of the second half, but I also think the story and art is simply better. So I'm looking forward to that.
    Returning to the Chapters at hand - I think it's pretty much a game of two halves. Chapter 33 is a brisk and enjoyable introduction of the Tournament of Power itself, and Chapter 34 is a really well-done, character-led Chapter that has real impact that is skilfully executed. Between this and the Chapters that make up the latter part of the arc, I can't help but think that Chapters 35 and 36 represent the nadirs of the arc for art and storytelling, respectively. There's nothing very wrong with them, exactly; they're not terrible or anything - but I think Chapter 35 has the highest amount of wonky art in the arc, and Chapter 36 is a somewhat aimless 'things are happening' parade of not especially consequential events. I feel like this is to help establish a rhythm to the arc that is specifically designed for Chapters 37 and 38 to dramatically overturn, so in that sense it would be functionally necessary - but functionally necessary content is often hard to get excited over, as here.
    The structure of the Tournament so far has varied - Chapter 33 gave a brisk covering of various characters across the field, alighting upon the active characters in Universe 7 who went out and sought their fortune in the melee; Chapter 34 went back to those committed to teamwork, but interspersed that with a zeroing in on Freeza's actions to spark a bigger change than the generic action of Chapter 33; Chapter 35 moves in on a small-scale, high-importance encounter centred around Goku personally, and stays there for the whole Chapter; Chapter 36 zooms out again to cover the field generally, after the fashion of Chapter 33; after this, Chapter 37 will zoom back in on Freeza's actions, which spark another change that affects the whole field in Chapter 38. From that point on, the field is thin enough to generally allow more discrimination and focus on specific encounters, particularly Goku vs. Jiren again, which moves back to the forefront and leads to the climax.
    I think the character work done with Goku in Chapter 35 is good, in keeping, and enjoyable, like the work done with Freeza in Chapter 34 - the events they touch off are appropriate to their characters: Freeza manipulating others into doing his bidding from a distance, like the kingpin he is; Goku plunging right in to provoke a fight with the strongest, and rejecting an option that seems superficially to offer a surer route to victory, but which he instinctively knows isn't what it appears to be. The presentation of Jiren also remains strong, as not just an antagonist, but as an impassable obstacle Goku has to contend with - there are no short-cuts to victory over this foe.
    But then we get Chapter 36, which is enjoyable enough in its way...but when I remember that there weren't enough pages to do, say, Gohan vs. Kefla properly in Chapter 39, it feels like something of a misstep for 45 pages to have been spent on no-one in particular doing nothing much of consequence - it could've been cut down a little, at least, as none of it sticks around quite long enough to matter; it has the same brisk and breezy air as the latter part of Chapter 33, moving from place to place as it wants, but for a whole Chapter, and that's a little much. Everything about the Chapter feels like it marks time (quite literally, by the end) and serves as a bridge to better things, though perhaps not in a way that connects with the arc particularly in a thematic or arching narrative sense; it's there to give us more stuff. There's a place for that, I guess, and it's all competently done - I guess Android #18 and Piccolo had to be shown making their exit somehow, and it entertains, as I've said. But none of it lands with much impact. It's all quite adequate, but I won't linger over it as I move on.
    In short, for this instalment: Part 1 good, Part 2 okay.
Well, that's it for this fortnight - next up will be Chapters 37-40, which is the real 'meat' of the fighting portion of this arc; I'm looking forward to it. But that's all I've got this time around. How 'bout 'yall? What did you get from your Re-Read?

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:06 pm

Before I get to Chapter 35...I got Volume 11 in the mail today. I just want to reiterate that the cover art is possibly Toyotaro's best work on Super, and when you read the manga on paper, it feels a lot more like the original.

Chapter 35

We get another crumb of what the gods from the exempt universes are like. Honestly, it's not a very impressive showing. To me, this is simply further evidence that the "Human Level" of universes has little to do with strength. I know a lot of fans would like to see some of the other universes in future arcs, or assume that the 4 exempt are the strongest, but don't hold your breath.

I really enjoy the manga's ToP. I hated the anime's take. For what it's worth, and I'm nitpicking, but I feel this portion of the arc may be the most lack luster when it comes to fights. I get the sense that Toyotaro just wishes he could write "and then a fight happens" and be done with it. It would've been truly impressive if he would've done better. We have no reason to care about Dyspo. If anything, this fight just shows how much these fighters are holding back for the sake of endurance. The anime didn't even pretend to care about this, so that's what I can salvage.

I get some kind of sick thrill from Jiren not giving a shit about Goku for most of the arc. Goku is my favorite Dragon Ball character, don't get me wrong, but I love the way he copes with his inferiority to Jiren. After all he's been through, he's less than a joke for the strongest in the multiverse. The fact that Goku is eventually able to catch up, if only for a moment, speaks to the kind of threat Goku is. He doesn't seem like all that much at the beginning of a fight, but the more you back him into a corner, the more wacky things get.

Kuririn and Whis basically plagiarize a beat from the Freeza arc (Goku's been using Kaiokenx10 the whole time!!). I'm unsure about how I feel about that. For hardcore fans, it's redundant. But we have to remember, a new generation in Japan and across the world are being introduced to Dragon Ball through Super. As a kid, I'd imagine I might be hesitant to watch or read something from the 80s (although I'd argue that the DB manga, aside from some social issues, doesn't feel dated). This may be the only exposure a new viewer would have to this plot point. Sure, in a way it's cheap, but I feel like this is something the Dragon Ball Room, or an aware Toyotaro, has baked into Super. If you're a fan of Super, it's just something you must accept.

Goku screams "I am Son Goku". I don't hate it, but it doesn't really resonate with me. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

I really love Hit's role in this chapter. The skirt thing is weird, fine. But it shows how Hit's grown since we've last seen him. We always knew Hit was stronger than his last tournament performance let on, but we knew it was dependent on "assassination techniques". Surely Hit has always been physically strong, but he never had a reason to test his strength. Goku, leagues ahead, showed him what was possible. Hit was intrigued. In 1,000 years he hadn't had a challenge like this. Having been the best for so long, he couldn't let it slide. Still, he took it in stride. His skirt was a symbol of the trickery of Time-Skip. By shedding it, he shows his dedication to improving as a martial artist. But he's still true to himself, in that he's improved his time manipulation abilities as well.

((Hit's Time Prison in the anime was...not well thought out. Manga Hit developed Time-Lag to go against Goku. The anime doesn't bring in that element. Also...standing completely still while you have 70 hostile enemies for 48 minutes does not seem like a viable strategy.))

Goku backs down, both for Goku reasons and practical reasons. Two vs one is not fair. Even so, Goku predicts that they will not win even if they work together. He was probably right.

Favorite art: Champa's expression when Hit is knocked out. Aside from that, I thought Hit's Time-Lag pose was cool, and Jiren knocking Goku away with a shockwave was the most impactful.

---

Something else to mention...at some point in this arc, Toyotaro starts drawing base Goku differently. One thing I loved about Toyotaro early on is that I felt he accurately captured the essence of base Goku. In this more serious setting (compared to the Universe 6 tournament specifically), it feels off.

Chapter 36

Vegeta vs Toppo truly feels like the battle for 3rd place. That's all I really have to say about it.

No.17 is so cool here. Nonchalant, cold, and fighting alongside Gohan and Piccolo.

Toriyama's No.18 is fantastic. Beerus with the hots for Ribrianne is outrageous. Kuririn as the hottest man in the multiverse is justice.

The back-to-back invisible enemies is a fun twist. Piccolo loses his special ability to No.17. If anything, it provides context to the "artificialness" of the Artificial Humans. They're not simply machine powered, they're modified on a cellular level. They're super humans in every sense of the word, apparently.

Jiren dips. I think that's hilarious. Fuck this, invisibility is not true strength!

I've pointed this out before, but there's a depth perception issue on page 42. No.17's legs should be behind the ground surface. [Corrected here]

The scoreboard was helpful and a nice touch, I was surprised to see it the first time around.

Favorite art: Page 17. Honorable mention to Whis teasing Kuririn.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:58 pm

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 37 - 40 (Plus Bonus Chapter #4!)
Part 1 - Chapters 37 and 38

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Good day, gentle reader, and welcome back to The Super Re-Read. We're mozying on in to Volume 8 of Dragon Ball Super, which will cover the early second half of the battle in the Tournament of Power arc - Freeza mixes it up with Universe 6's Saiyans and provokes a radical change in the landscape of the battle; Goku runs out of options against Jiren until he's shown what he's been missing all along, and the fight with Jiren builds towards its inevitable climax! It's sure to be a good time.

As ever, credit and thanks is due to Kanzenshuu, its contributors, and its wealth of information that topics like The Super Re-Read rely on. Go check 'em out. And a big thanks to y'all for sticking with the Re-Read and contributing your own views and talking points.

Okey-dokey, then; it's time to grab your manga, dive back in, and get re-reading!:

Chapter 37 - Awaken, Super Saiyan Kale/Awaken, Super Saiyan Kale
21 June 2018
Chapter Notes
  • I do quite like the idea that Freeza's getting his animosity for Saiyans 'off his chest' by targeting the Universe 6 Saiyans, since he can't do it for his true betes noires without dooming himself. He's already used his hatred as a feint to draw in his own Universe 6 counterpart in 超 #34, so I enjoy the character work here in allowing himself to just have fun with his own prejudices once he's done some actual work with them. He'll continue to do things that are basically pointing up the fact that he's just busy enjoying himself ("playing at blocks"; "the joy of tormenting Saiyans...I can't get enough of it"; juggling Caulifla up in the air with his finger beams), which seems fitting for his character.
  • In fact, I think what I'm really enjoying about the Tournament of Power arc is that it has a fundamentally 'character-driven' plot. Here, as in 超 #34, Freeza occasions what will be a radical change in the story, through leveraging his longstanding grievances to make things happen. Whereas in 超 #34, it was a deliberate plot, here he sparks off something he doesn't foresee by simply having his idea of fun. Freeza isn't the only character who prods on the plot simply by being true to himself (we noted this for Goku's single-minded pursuit of Jiren in 超 #33 and 超 #35; Vegeta's rivalry with Goku will fit nicely under this in 超 #40 as well, as will Jiren's own character in the same Chapter) - but Freeza is among the most notable and enjoyable exemplars of this - his characterisation in the Tournament of Power is more than worth his comparatively staid, repetitious outing in Revival of F.
  • Among other things, Freeza uses his psychokinetic abilities to fight Caulifla with, in a condescending fashion, much like he did with Goku in DB #310. Of course, like with Goku, Freeza's tendency to toy with his enemies here leads to him being surprised at times, and eventually ends up creating a truly formidable enemy in a new Super Saiyan.
  • Of course, I'm obliged to note the obvious, which is that SSj Caulifla is stronger than SSj Goku from way back when; that's no great insight - of course, it's probable that SSj Caulifla is somewhere around the power of SSj Vegeta and Goku, in the way that Cabbe matched them a year previously. She may perhaps be a little stronger than Final Form Freeza as well, but that's debatable. If Caulifla and Freeza are similar, and Caulifla is similar to the Universe 7 heroes in corresponding forms, then Freeza has definitely become quite a lot stronger since he died, as Base Form Goku showed him up pretty badly in the Revival of F promo. Kale, of course, is stronger than either of them without even turning Super Saiyan. If ordinary multipliers apply, then Kale is at least 50 times stronger than even Caulifla in corresponding forms.
  • I find Goku's response to Golden Freeza a little strange, since he's seen it all before - it might just be a translation thing, but to say "that must be his new power-up", as though he's inferring it or something instead of straightforwardly explaining what he definitely knows, is very odd and takes me out of the story briefly.
  • Favourite art: The revelation of Golden Freeza, of course, references his 50% power up from DB #312 in his stance. The shading is a mite overdone at times; however, that's not my nomination for favourite - that goes to the ensuing scene of him beating Caulifla around. As ever, there's a standard Toyotarou rushing scene (which he does often, and well), there's Freeza's bounce off the debris, which I enjoy as a panel, and the overhead smash is great. I'm also fond of the panels showing Freeza catching Caulifla on the bounce, and the trail of her skid as she brings herself to a halt. It's dynamic and fresh choreography, which I enjoy.
  • I should say I do like one little element of Freeza's transformation - while his power-up carves out another chunk of the Tournament stage, he stands quite serenely on a little floating piece of it, so he can pull off the aforementioned visual reference; I like the way that little piece of understated control cuts through the otherwise typical bombast of a big power-up.
  • I enjoy the fact that Kale hasn't stood out because she's been continuing her schtick of deliberately doing nothing much to attract attention, or else being just too impressive to notice. I love that she offs Darcoli without even bothering to pay her any real attention, and her (mostly) unseen assaults on Freeza. While Dragon Ball has plenty of instances where characters move too quickly to be seen by others or to hide a specific movement while fighting, from DB #42 up to 超 #59, I can't remember an instance where a person does this to deliberately hide the fact that they are fighting. That's an interesting twist.
  • Freeza blowing away Caulifla's blast seems like a deliberate callback to Frost knocking out Conflee in 超 #34, though it's shown from a different angle to that instance.
  • As a 'beat', Kale's reticence to reveal her true power in the presence of Caulifla has an obvious similarity to Trunks doing the same in Vegeta's presence in DB #383-385. Of course, unlike Trunks feeling a misplaced sense of deference to Vegeta's all-consuming pride, Kale genuinely believes that Caulifla is, and deserves to be considered, the best there is, owing to the kindness she's shown Kale and other Saiyan strays in the past - not a very Saiyan trait, but an interesting twist on Caulifla's character. While Caulifla is cocky and brash, it's clear that the affection she inspires is genuine from people who owe her their lives (as opposed, say, to Freeza, who has followers from fear, or opportunism). But it's also an interesting cognitive dissonance in Kale, as her genuinely-held beliefs in Caulifla's supremacy are directly confronted by Cabbe's recognition and insistence that Kale is truly the strongest of the three of them, and by the sight of Caulifla getting humbled by Freeza.
  • Kale whacks Freeza around a bit, though she doesn't seem to debilitate him or anything. He even allows himself a small joke that there are too many kinds of Super Saiyan now (a meta-gag, as much as anything else). The fact that he insists to Goku that he doesn't need help, but just to take her seriously (even after her ki spikes again), and the fact that Goku catches her punch and kicks her away without much difficulty when in SSjB (shocking her) probably indicates that initially, SSj Kale is probably something like God-Tier, rather than really on the level of Universe 7's strongest fighters. Of course, that'll change quickly enough.
  • I enjoy the beat where Goku takes a moment to smile at Roshi and Gohan working together - it's an oddly touching moment of reflection, the more so given that we don't often get stuff like this, and also in contrast to the frenzy that's about to take place.
  • Kale, of course, takes her design cue from Broly (who will be revisited in turn about six months on from the publication of this issue); the comments Cabbe makes on the Legendary Saiyan in 超 #38 strengthens the connection with DBZ Movie 8's depiction of Broly, as do other visual touches, such as Kale's clothing, her pupil-less eyes, and her increasingly bulky musculature. This rather blatant conceptual origin has led others to try to posit a similar link for Caulifla, as though she's a Universe 6 Goku or something. To be honest, I really don't see it; the two don't appear to have much obvious overlap, and given that Toriyama designed her to accompany Kale (he's historically fond of pairs to help explore relationships through interaction), I'd much sooner say that she appears to be totally her own character in conception.
  • There are only a couple of new eliminations shown in this chapter, so the running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
    • Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Android #17: 6 eliminations (Murisarm, Napapa, Zium, and Mechiorp of Universe 10, Botamo of Universe 6, Damon of Universe 4); Gamisaras: 6* eliminations (Android #18 of Universe 7, Ribrianne, Rozie, and Kakunsa of Universe 2, Murichim and Jilcol of Universe 10); Freeza: 5 eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Piccolo: 2 eliminations (Jirasen of Universe 10, Gamisaras of Universe 4); Vegeta: 2 eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Jiren: 1 elimination (Hit of Universe 6); Kale: 1 elimination (Darcoli of Universe 4); Cabbe: 1 elimination (The Preecho of Universe 3); Damon: 1* elimination (Piccolo of Universe 7). (*Note: some of the eliminations credited to Gamisaras may properly be attributed to Damon).
    • We get a very helpful summary of who's out and who's still in at the end of the chapter, so the remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe are as follows:
      Universe 2: 3 (Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Prum, Jimeze, Hermila, Vikal)
      Universe 3: 6 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, Nigrisshi, Katoplesa, Narirama, Viara, The Preecho)
      Universe 4: 3 (Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, Damon, Gamisaras, Darcoli, Monna, Nink, Majora, Kyawei)
      Universe 6: 6 (Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Hit, Frost, Botamo, Dr. Rota)
      Universe 7: 6 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Son Gohan, Android #17, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Android #18, Piccolo)
      Universe 9: 0 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
      Universe 10: 1 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
      Universe 11: 10 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)
Chapter 38 - Universe 6’s Last Resort/Universe 6’s Last Resort
21 July 2018
Chapter Notes
  • This is probably the most plot-heavy chapter of the 'fighting half' of the Tournament of Power arc so far; certainly since 超 #34, and definitely one of the 'turning points' of the whole arc. In retrospect, it's clear that Universes 7, 11, and 6 were foregrounded as the only three Universes that would truly matter in this arc - Universe 7, of course, is "our" Universe; Universe 11 is the Universe with the main antagonist, and Universe 6 is the other Universe we've already been introduced to. It's not surprising that they get the 1-2-3 finish. More significantly, this chapter will underscore the point I made in a previous instalment (and just above, too), that it's the character features and pre-existing relationships that exist between the teams that truly matter, and make things happen - it's how Universe 6 is able to change the course of the Tournament now, and the lack of this connection will doom Universe 11 when Jiren opts to go it alone, allowing his teammates to be eliminated in this chapter and 超 #40.
  • Kale's explosion tosses a lot of other competitors around. It's really quite strange that more don't go, looking at how they fly through the air - Rabanra of Universe 2 seems particularly lucky to have escaped immediate elimination (not that it helps him in the end, as he goes 9 pages later). Universe 11 get a precursor to the main demonstration of their teamworking skills (coming later in this chapter), as Tupper manages to save Kunshi (and Dyspo will shortly save Toppo - he's clearly the MVP of Universe 11's team, Jiren's power aside). Overall, it seems like only 4 competitors are actually eliminated here - Maji-Kayo, Nigrisshi, Zirloin and Shosa. Everyone else manages to save themselves or be saved by others.
  • Vegeta manages to save himself from elimination with a ki sabre. I infer from this that Vegetto knows this technique thanks to Vegeta, rather than it being a technique that Vegetto has uniquely created (a la Gotenks).
  • Mule appears from the belly of his Mosco-bot, finishing the pun. I like the fact that Anilaza is peremptorily dispatched by Kale - not only is it a typical subversion that we've come to expect of Dragon Ball in general, but Anilaza's design is, frankly, a bit rubbish, so I'm glad to see it get swept from the board without dwelling on it too much.
  • Of course, we get another subversion in which Caulifla is actually happy to see Kale wrecking shop, rather than feeling threatened or whatever, despite Cabbe and Kale's (unfounded) speculations to the contrary in the last chapter.
  • I noticed in the background that, when Anilaza falls off the stage, the Central Pillar still has 5 notches remaining - there were originally 10, with each notch basically corresponding to 4.8 minutes (or 4 minutes, 48 seconds). The presence of 5 notches means that at least 19 minutes and 13 seconds , and anywhere up to precisely 24 minutes, remain at this point. However, it made me go back and check each instance where we get to see the whole pillar, as I couldn't recall seeing an instance of 6 or 7 notches being shown, and it's perhaps not always totally consistent, but apart from what looks like a notable error early on, it's not a bad level of consistency:
    • 超 #33 consistently shows us 10 notches to the pillar, which is how we know the division of time here.
    • 超 #34 never actually gives us a clear, unobstructed view - the closest we get is when we see a notch disappear just after Universe 9's erasure, but the angle only leaves 8 notches visible.
    • However, 超 #35 clearly depicts 8 notches on "43 minutes remaining", which would be an error, as 8 notches should run anywhere between 33 minutes, 37 seconds and 38 minutes, 24 seconds. We should be on 9 notches at this point. Alternatively, if the tenth notch were to vanish upon the commencement of the tournament itself, we'd get 5 minutes, 20 seconds per notch, in which case seeing a change to 8 notches would mean we're on 42 minutes, 40 seconds (which is close enough to make this consistent - it has worse problems overall, though, and we'll see a 'for instance' in the next point).
    • 8 notches persist on the column throughout 超 #36 until the end, when 33 minutes are said to remain, which makes sense (though it doesn't, if going by the theory suggested in the last point - by that schema, notch 8 would end on 37 minutes, 21 seconds); minute 33 is split pretty much down the middle between notches 7 and 8 (the turn being at 33 minutes, 36 seconds).
    • Relatively early on in 超 #37 (9 pages into the chapter), we're still on 8 notches, and we don't see the pillar again until 11 pages into 超 #38 (this chapter), when, as noted, we're suddenly on 5 notches; while it's not a total inconsistency, it does give quite a strong sense of 'whiplash' to note that we've been stuck in the same 5-minute band for at least 2 Chapters, only to completely bypass 10 minutes within about a Chapter's worth of content. We never see notch 7 or 6.
    • After this, 超 #39 has us squarely on 4 notches when Goku and Jiren square off again (which means at least 14 minutes and 25 seconds remain, which fits with the statement at the beginning of the chapter that 15 minutes are left when Kefla and Gohan start fighting), and it'll stay that way at least until the erasure of Universe 6 (16 pages in); we won't see the whole pillar again until the beginning of 超 #40, when we see 3 notches.
    • We'll see that become 2 notches (or 9 minutes, 36 seconds remaining) when Freeza is fighting Jiren in 超 #40, and that will last to the end of the Chapter, as the aftermath of #17's 'explosion' reveals.
    • 7 pages in to 超 #41, we're down to 1 notch, meaning we've dropped below 4 minutes, 48 seconds. 41 pages in, there's "less than 3 minutes left", so almost all of that chapter takes place in around 2 minutes.
    • And finally, we see the last notch vanish in 超 #42, signifying the end of the 48 minutes.
  • The rapidity with which the four 'also-ran' Universes are eliminated has been criticised as simply too quick - rushed, even - and while I understand this after a few Chapters which have been relatively leisurely in this respect, I do like the sense of 'narrative whiplash' that this Chapter gives us, after giving us an up-tempo beginning, establishing the main antagonist and easing us into a 'stuff is happening' sort of rhythm, I really enjoy the fact that in this chapter, the whole Tournament is completely turned upside-down (and I suspect it's an entirely deliberate, pre-planned 'beat'). The structure of the battle itself has very clear punctuations for its key moments, and this is surely one of them.
  • It certainly doesn't hurt that Freeza manages to engineer the preconditions for this particular change (albeit unwittingly, unlike his very calculated elimination of Universe 9 back in 超 #34), reinforcing his personal importance to the way the Tournament unfolds (and not just in the characterisation aspect, as mentioned above). Between his own actions, those of Frost, and those of Kale's rampage, Freeza could lay claim to a key role in the elimination of 31 competitors by this stage.
  • I like the elimination of Universe 10 - in the midst of the whiplash I just mentioned, it's nice to also have a 'quieter', more reflective beat that allows us to take in what it means for a Universe that is facing down its own annihilation like this. I think this reflectiveness is in keeping with Gowas's character as depicted in the previous arc, particularly when Obuni mentions his "lessons of the heart" - this seems evocative of the position Gowas expresses in 超 #17, when he tells Zamas that he should view the combat power he has gained "as an effort to balance your heart"; this could imply that he is only truly interested in the one as a means to gain the other. On the other hand, Gowas has poor form in terms of his judgement on this subject, and this seems to play out here - he picks a talented combatant for his apprentice, when a wise and balanced heart is called for (as Whis says in 超 #19, "Next time you choose you choose your apprentice, I'd appreciate it if you picked one based on his heart, not his physical strength"); here, when combatants of capability and talent are required for survival, he gives "lessons of the heart" in lieu of physical training, to combatants who are (in #17's words) "Nothing impressive". While Gowas seems to get it wrong both times, his teaching now hits its mark in a way that it did not before, giving Obuni the bravery and tranquility to face his end - and Gowas likewise expresses this tranquility of heart in his own actions, as he bids Universe 7 farewell with a smile.
  • Given that his mental fragility took a blow from her only half an hour ago when she called him a piece of junk (in 超 #33), I'm a little surprised that Magetta responds so promptly to Caulifla's appeal in stopping Kale. In another callback to his appearance in 超 #11, we see SSj Kale do what SSj Vegeta could not, as she lifts the 1000+ ton Metal Man - above her head with one hand, no less - and tosses him out of the ring with ease.
  • We get exposition from Cabbe around the Legendary Saiyan - the detail Caulifla supplies, that it is a demonic Saiyan that appears once every 1000 years, makes pretty clear that this is supposed to be Universe 6's version of the more familiar Legendary Super Saiyan (particularly as depicted in DBZ Movie 8 - again, not particularly surprising, since Kale is a Universe 6 version of Broly - while he is not the Legendary Super Saiyan in current continuity, it's a fertile enough connection - the possibility that he could be is mentioned in Dragon Ball Super: Broly as well). But it's also the impetus for the next change, as the revelation that Kale is going to destroy herself is all the motivation that Caulifla in particular needs to intervene (and her determination is notable - it verges on desperation at points), which will lead up to the pair eventually fusing.
  • Kale takes on Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol, Zoiray, Kunshi, and Tupper from Universe 11. We've seen SSj Goku take on a similar grouping without much difficulty in 超 #33, and Kefla is of course a great deal more powerful. This encounter therefore serves as the opportunity to foreground two key ideas for this arc, which are, as I've often mentioned before, Teamwork, and True Strength - this time in the form of how strength is wielded:
    • Vegeta's comments on Kale's form emphasising power and just being "brute force" that can't connect obviously brings to mind Trunks's failure to hit Perfect Cell with his over-bulky SSjIII form in DB #387-388; however, it will be Jiren's comment in 超 #39 that will spell out another problem with what Kale's doing here - "Power gained by destroying your body can't necessarily be wielded properly." He mentions that this is a mistake that Kale made. So, even though her power is so much higher, she can't wield it properly, so she's not doing as much damage as she ought even when she lands her hits, but in many cases she isn't even connecting.
    • Meanwhile, the teamwork element gets a strong showing here for the Pride Troopers, who are able to exploit these weaknesses in a way that they couldn't against the (weaker, but more skilful and in-control) Son Goku. As Whis notes, "they've always fought as a team", which explains why they're able to take on Kale. Goku and Vegeta will likewise demonstrate this force multiplier against none other than Jiren in 超 #41. But there is a certain limit to this advantage for the Pride Troopers, as Kai noted in 超 #31 that they are a "motley crew", brought together by a general shared calling rather than necessarily much in the way of a personal connection. They fight well together as a team, but their connection is artificial. Most of the team here are simply fetched from the situation on Planet Bas from 超 #31 (Kettol is the only member not shown at any point back then), so it's interesting to see this constructed, vocational team cracked open later in the chapter by a fusion of two characters who have a deeply personal, if asymmetric, relationship.
  • Universe 6 continues to be light-fingered. There was a lot of unnoticed snatching going on in 超 #32, when Caulifla and Kale were introduced (in keeping with their slum gangster tendencies), and this trend continues as Caulifla accidentally drops the Potara earrings she swiped from Fuwa, hoping "they might be worth something".
  • I enjoy the ratcheting up of the tension from the point that Cabbe attempts to get to Kale onwards - I think the plot beat really works well with the interrupted save and the last-minute opening Caulifla manages to earn Cabbe, just as Kale is getting eliminated, allowing Cabbe to act in a selfless fashion, substituting himself for Kale at the last second in the hope of giving Universe 6 a last chance. I think the pacing for this moment is just top-notch.
  • Favourite art: There's not that much that is especially noteworthy in this Chapter, but the introduction of Kefla does stand out. In particular, I enjoy the panel where Kefla starts moving - the close-up on a face made almost entirely of momentum lines is a new one for Dragon Ball Super, I think, and I love the cheeky little shrug she gives after decking Tupper. I also like the (more effective) use of a composition used back in 超 #33 - Kefla bowls her way through the Pride Troopers like Jiren did for some other scrubs back then, but I think Toyotarou's take on it this time is much better - the tilt on the panel, and the placement of the other characters in the composition, gives a much better sense of power and momentum.
  • Returning to the natural connection between team-mates being key to the unfolding of this particular arc, we get Goku demonstrating more concern for "your friends" than Jiren does, who merely says going to help them is "unnecessary". He'll take this attitude again in 超 #40 when he allows Dyspo and Toppo to be eliminated. As Belmod notes in 超 #42, Jiren "doesn't trust anyone but himself", and doesn't regard his teammates as people he has a natural and obvious obligation towards, in the way that Goku assumes. It's interesting, in addition, that Kahseral and Dyspo both apologise to Jiren on the two instances that they ask for his help. It seems clear that they're in no doubt as to the character of their relationship with Jiren, either.
  • The running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
    • Kale: 17 eliminations (Zirloin, Zarbuto, and Rabanra of Universe 2, Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, and Nigrisshi of Universe 3, Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, and Darcoli of Universe 4, Obuni of Universe 10, Magetta, Saonel and Pirina of Universe 6); Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Android #17: 6 eliminations (Murisarm, Napapa, Zium, and Mechiorp of Universe 10, Botamo of Universe 6, Damon of Universe 4); Gamisaras: 6* eliminations (Android #18 of Universe 7, Ribrianne, Rozie, and Kakunsa of Universe 2, Murichim and Jilcol of Universe 10); Freeza: 5 eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9); Kefla: 5 eliminations (Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol of Universe 11); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Piccolo: 2 eliminations (Jirasen of Universe 10, Gamisaras of Universe 4); Vegeta: 2 eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Jiren: 1 elimination (Hit of Universe 6); Cabbe: 1 elimination (The Preecho of Universe 3); Damon: 1* elimination (Piccolo of Universe 7). (*Note: some of the eliminations credited to Gamisaras may properly be attributed to Damon).
    • After Kale and Kefla are done tearing through the various teams that were left, the remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe are as follows:
      Universe 2: 0 (Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Prum, Jimeze, Hermila, Vikal)
      Universe 3: 0 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, Nigrisshi, Katoplesa, Narirama, Viara, The Preecho)
      Universe 4: 0 (Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, Damon, Gamisaras, Darcoli, Monna, Nink, Majora, Kyawei)
      Universe 6: 2, fused (Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Hit, Frost, Botamo, Dr. Rota)
      Universe 7: 6 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Son Gohan, Android #17, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Android #18, Piccolo)
      Universe 9: 0 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
      Universe 10: 0 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
      Universe 11: 4 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)
That's all for Part 1 of the instalment - we'll be back with Part 2 (Chapters 39 and 40) at the end of the week!

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:45 pm

Two very good chapters, but there's a grating nitpick I've had since 38's release that seems to grow stronger with each re-read.

While I've always maintained that sidelining background characters is totally fine, and even encouraged in a battle royale setting like this so long as it's in service of broader story developments, sidelining the U6 Namekians for no reason other than "Kale turns on her allies" (which I'd argue was already conveyed well enough with Magetta) goes too far for me. These two don't just fight for one of the most important teams in the arc, they also belong to the same race as a legacy member of the cast. It's perfectly natural for any reader to expect some background/context for their presence. We got it with Cabba in the U6 arc, but not with them, so this is pretty jarring in comparison and I think it's unfair for some to dismiss those concerns. If anyone's even remotely interested in the overall world expansion of the arc, Saonel and Pirina will inevitably come across as clickbait for many.

The anime tries to be more thoughtful about the inclusion of two not-Piccolos, but its execution falls flat and arguably feels worse than what the manga does. Outside of hilariously cheesy lines from Saonel like "So this... is the power... of Universe 7's Namekians!", they have no dynamic with Gohan and Piccolo at all. Also, they (like Gohan and Piccolo) are just there to fill in time because they're barely a part of the underlying conflict in the TV series. I'm not here to complain about the anime, but I don't think it's asking for much to have these two fighters who are obstensibly designed to invite curiosity get some kind of role, even if relatively minor, though one medium takes a superficial approach while the other just throws the baby out with the bathwater. It probably would have been better not to include them period if it wasn't actually going to do anything with them. It's a small issue for me, but an issue nonetheless.

On the other hand, Anilaza getting unceremoniously one-shotted is fucking great. It's a pretty funny gag, shows that Universe 3's last-ditch effort meant nothing, and goes a long way to establish how truly scary Kale is. She eliminates multiple universes in quick succession, and it works for what the story strives to do with her role; she's a deadly obstacle to everyone in the ring, including her own teammates, and the number of universal eliminations she manages to rack up in such short order is exactly what sells it. This is what I'd describe as using your fodder warriors in an effective narrative-driven way.

Also, Freeza being unapologetically Freeza is too damn good. I feel like it's an aspect of his portrayal that only the manga and movies seem to get right. Again, this isn't to rag on the TV series -- I just feel like if you're going to bring back one of the most iconic villains of Dragon Ball, it's crucial that you do his character justice and distinguish him from the rest of the cast.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Yuji » Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:07 pm

The Undying wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:45 pmWhile I've always maintained that sidelining background characters is totally fine, and even encouraged in a battle royale setting like this so long as it's in service of broader story developments, sidelining the U6 Namekians for no reason other than "Kale turns on her allies" (which I'd argue was already conveyed well enough with Magetta) goes too far for me. These two don't just fight for one of the most important teams in the arc, they also belong to the same race as a legacy member of the cast. It's perfectly natural for any reader to expect some background/context for their presence. We got it with Cabba in the U6 arc, but not with them, so this is pretty jarring in comparison and I think it's unfair for some to dismiss those concerns. If anyone's even remotely interested in the overall world expansion of the arc, Saonel and Pirina will inevitably come across as clickbait to some.
Retrospectively, I'd argue that the unexplained presence of the Yardratian, Jimeze, in universe two is another case where some context was warranted, not only because Yardratians should be native to the sixth and seventh universes exclusively, but also because the species would become relevant for a massive power-up and character building moment for the deuteragonist of the series in the very next story arc. Of course, as a Yardratian, he could have simply used Instantaneous Movement, but the character was eliminated without so much as a line of dialogue to explain his presence.

On an arguably equivalent scale, I remember one of the members of team universe two was also described as a Tsufruian (was it Zarbuto? He seems more like a member of Toppo's species, instead), and that to me also justifies contextualization, considering the heavy and loaded history between the Saiyans and Tsufruians across the Dragon Ball mediums.

Like you, I've also maintained that sidelining characters in the Tournament of Power aided in the validity of the chaotic setting, but these two characters alongside the Namekians stand as egregious examples of misplaced attention and narrative oversight, specifically because the characters are borrowing from a well of pre-established lore and characterization, understandable peaking fanbase interest expectation, only to disappear without providing satisfying character interactions with the established cast or demanded world-building.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:31 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:07 pm
The Undying wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:45 pmWhile I've always maintained that sidelining background characters is totally fine, and even encouraged in a battle royale setting like this so long as it's in service of broader story developments, sidelining the U6 Namekians for no reason other than "Kale turns on her allies" (which I'd argue was already conveyed well enough with Magetta) goes too far for me. These two don't just fight for one of the most important teams in the arc, they also belong to the same race as a legacy member of the cast. It's perfectly natural for any reader to expect some background/context for their presence. We got it with Cabba in the U6 arc, but not with them, so this is pretty jarring in comparison and I think it's unfair for some to dismiss those concerns. If anyone's even remotely interested in the overall world expansion of the arc, Saonel and Pirina will inevitably come across as clickbait to some.
Retrospectively, I'd argue that the unexplained presence of the Yardratian, Jimeze, in universe two is another case where some context was warranted, not only because Yardratians should be native to the sixth and seventh universes exclusively, but also because the species would become relevant for a massive power-up and character building moment for the deuteragonist of the series in the very next story arc. Of course, as a Yardratian, he could have simply used Instantaneous Movement, but the character was eliminated without so much as a line of dialogue to explain his presence.

On an arguably equivalent scale, I remember one of the members of team universe two was also described as a Tsufruian (was it Zarbuto? He seems more like a member of Toppo's species, instead), and that to me also justifies contextualization, considering the heavy and loaded history between the Saiyans and Tsufruians across the Dragon Ball mediums.

Like you, I've also maintained that sidelining characters in the Tournament of Power aided in the validity of the chaotic setting, but these two characters alongside the Namekians stand as egregious examples of misplaced attention and narrative oversight, specifically because the characters are borrowing from a well of pre-established lore and characterization, understandable peaking fanbase interest expectation, only to disappear without providing satisfying character interactions with the established cast or demanded world-building.
I generally agree with you guys, but I feel some "meta" context is needed.

Most of the fodder fighters from the ToP were not created by Toriyama (or Toyotaro), and thus have no bearing on the story he was trying to tell. I can only assume it was Toei who went wild trying to fill the rosters. Without any regard for the lore or future implications, they threw in a Yardratian, a Tsufurian, and two Namekians for fanservice. Because Tori/Toyo did not create Jimeze, and were not planning the GPP arc at this time, there's no way it would jive, and Toriyama rarely lets "filler" he didn't author get in the way of the story he wants to tell.

Toei got a fight out of the Jimeze, but as you mention, it violates the "twin universe" lore. I suppose it's still possible for a Universe 6/7 Yardratian to jump universes, but it requires an extraordinary explanation that would surely make this character stand out more. As for the Tsufurian, you wouldn't have know that's what he was meant to be if not for the Toei website bios.

Toyotaro, aware of these issues, essentially throws these characters away. In the manga, you can easily interpret that they resemble Toei-created races, but in-universe, are not. The Tsufurian slips by completely unnoticed without the bio tidbit, and the Yardratian doesn't exactly resemble the ones we know from the DBZ anime (his face specifically).

As for the Namekians, in-universe, you might imagine that Champa - desperate to fill the Universe 6 roster - saw Piccolo and padded the team. Combat-wise, we know Namekians aren't all that special in the grand scheme of things. Toei decided to combine every Namekian into two beings, which is interesting in itself, but for citizens of Toriyama's world, seems unrealistic. Toyotaro "borrows" this idea later on, but limits it to Warrior-types, which is more reasonable in my view (if not a pedantic, fanboy distinction). So without following that detail, what else could Toyotaro have done? There might've been more possibilities if one of the Namekians had been Dragon Clan...

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:46 pm

The Undying wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:45 pm Two very good chapters, but there's a grating nitpick I've had since 38's release that seems to grow stronger with each re-read.

While I've always maintained that sidelining background characters is totally fine, and even encouraged in a battle royale setting like this so long as it's in service of broader story developments, sidelining the U6 Namekians for no reason other than "Kale turns on her allies" (which I'd argue was already conveyed well enough with Magetta) goes too far for me. These two don't just fight for one of the most important teams in the arc, they also belong to the same race as a legacy member of the cast. It's perfectly natural for any reader to expect some background/context for their presence. We got it with Cabba in the U6 arc, but not with them, so this is pretty jarring in comparison and I think it's unfair for some to dismiss those concerns. If anyone's even remotely interested in the overall world expansion of the arc, Saonel and Pirina will inevitably come across as clickbait for many.

The anime tries to be more thoughtful about the inclusion of two not-Piccolos, but its execution falls flat and arguably feels worse than what the manga does. Outside of hilariously cheesy lines from Saonel like "So this... is the power... of Universe 7's Namekians!", they have no dynamic with Gohan and Piccolo at all. Also, they (like Gohan and Piccolo) are just there to fill in time because they're barely a part of the underlying conflict in the TV series. I'm not here to complain about the anime, but I don't think it's asking for much to have these two fighters who are obstensibly designed to invite curiosity get some kind of role, even if relatively minor, though one medium takes a superficial approach while the other just throws the baby out with the bathwater. It probably would have been better not to include them period if it wasn't actually going to do anything with them. It's a small issue for me, but an issue nonetheless.

On the other hand, Anilaza getting unceremoniously one-shotted is fucking great. It's a pretty funny gag, shows that Universe 3's last-ditch effort meant nothing, and goes a long way to establish how truly scary Kale is. She eliminates multiple universes in quick succession, and it works for what the story strives to do with her role; she's a deadly obstacle to everyone in the ring, including her own teammates, and the number of universal eliminations she manages to rack up in such short order is exactly what sells it. This is what I'd describe as using your fodder warriors in an effective narrative-driven way.
I'm glad we can have a compromise on this. I too feel that the Universe 6 Namekians were kinda forgettable and less than well handled in the anime but there was some potential there and they at least did tried to do something with them, which I feel was necessary. Also, while I enjoyed the Aniraza segment in the anime, him getting unceremoniously K.O.ed because he's essentially too massive to fit on the stage is indeed fucking hilarious. Great gag.

Although I haven't commented here recently because I'm critical of this arc in general and don't want to ruin anyone's fun in this lighthearted respect thread, I will say that I think the tournament should have been drastically scaled down in the manga. If Toyotaro had no plans for the majority of these characters, ditch 'em, I wouldn't mind so much if he did. I know he probably couldn't contravene the directions of Toriyama and Toei, but there had already been tonnes of differences between the anime and manga. As much as the quicker pace helps with the frantic battle royale vibe, all the less-relevant universes going down so abruptly killed the tension for me.

Still, great work from the Magnificent Nipple as always, one idea that changed my perspective was the theme of Goku's chain of connections being more useful than the individual linkages (i.e. Krillin, whose presence brings Android #17, a far stronger combatant, onto the team in the first place), which is a genius observation.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Yuji » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:03 pm

batistabus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:31 pmThe Tsufurian slips by completely unnoticed without the bio tidbit, and the Yardratian doesn't exactly resemble the ones we know from the DBZ anime (his face specifically).
Good points all around, but in regards to this specifically, Toyotarou went ahead and included the anime designs in his rendition of Yardrat, alongside Toriyama's original DBO design. Because of this, Jimeze is retroactively associated with Yardrat by force (even if you nitpick and say he lacks the wrinkles, he's still wearing the same clothes, has the same spots on his cranium and is colored pink), whether Toriyama's or Toyotarou's intentions were to ignore the elephant in the room and treat him as a design coincidence or not.

With that being said, are we sure Toyotarou didn't design some of the characters? We know he designed some of the Gods, so he likely had a hand in designing a few of the fighters, too.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:20 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:07 pm Retrospectively, I'd argue that the unexplained presence of the Yardratian, Jimeze, in universe two is another case where some context was warranted, not only because Yardratians should be native to the sixth and seventh universes exclusively, but also because the species would become relevant for a massive power-up and character building moment for the deuteragonist of the series in the very next story arc. Of course, as a Yardratian, he could have simply used Instantaneous Movement, but the character was eliminated without so much as a line of dialogue to explain his presence.
This is true as well. I was actually expecting the manga to delve into U2's Yardratian at the time this arc was being published in V Jump, but... nada. People try to justify this by claiming he wasn't technically Yardratian, since the manga doesn't call him one, but his design is so similar and obviously intended to be a Yardratian concept that it's not a compelling rebuttal.

To be clear, like you said, even a throwaway line of dialogue or two would probably do the trick. I don't think anyone was asking for them to be important characters, but the problem is the Yardratian and Namekians could just as well have been other generically designed alien fighters and there wouldn't be a difference, as far as it goes.

I still think it's a consequence of having 80 participants in a tournament and designing a few of them to be a "hook" for the audience, but not following through on those hooks. They could have been Toei's concepts as far as I know, but it feels like a bait-and-switch in a very unintended sort of way. I just get a haphazard, messy impression from it all and I think Toyotaro could easily have done more with them than he actually did.
Last edited by The Undying on Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:24 pm

Yuji wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:03 pm
batistabus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:31 pmThe Tsufurian slips by completely unnoticed without the bio tidbit, and the Yardratian doesn't exactly resemble the ones we know from the DBZ anime (his face specifically).
Good points all around, but in regards to this specifically, Toyotarou went ahead and included the anime designs in his rendition of Yardrat, alongside Toriyama's original DBO design. Because of this, Jimeze is retroactively associated with Yardrat by force (even if you nitpick and say he lacks the wrinkles, he's still wearing the same clothes, has the same spots on his cranium and is colored pink), whether Toriyama's or Toyotarou's intentions were to ignore the elephant in the room and treat him as a design coincidence or not.

With that being said, are we sure Toyotarou didn't design some of the characters? We know he designed some of the Gods, so he likely had a hand in designing a few of the fighters, too.
Surely Jimeze is intended to be a Yardratian, but the lack of wrinkles, the lack of whiskers, and the non-bulging eyes (features all Toei Yardratians have)...I let it sneak by on a technicality, although I take your point.

I suppose he may have designed some fighters. I think it's most likely he designed some Angels and Kaioshin since he posted some unused designs to social media. If he did design some fighters, I don't think these 4 are among them.

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