The Super Re-Read

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:19 pm

...Okay. Here goes nothing.

Welcome to...

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I mentioned in the main Manga Discussion thread a few weeks back that perhaps a different, retrospective approach to the manga covering completed plots might be beneficial now, rather than just a cycle of 'hot takes' on developing story increments. So I've put my money where my mouth is, with The Super Re-Read. This is directly modelled on the 'DB Rewatch' threads over in the General Franchise Discussion forum, and aims to do much the same thing, only for the Super manga. If this goes well, I'll aim to continue this with a new thread every fortnight. So hopefully this does well!

This series will aim to run across 4 Chapters of Dragon Ball Super per go, starting with plot summaries and chapter notes of whatever occurs to me (a lot of credit, unsurprisingly, belongs to Kanzenshuu as a resource, particularly in their copious archive of interview translations, which are often linked in the Chapter Notes - Japanese chapter titles and publishing dates are also taken from the website), but more importantly, the aim is getting people here to dust off their Dragon Ball Super manga and have a re-read of the content, and encouraging discussion of how y'all feel about the chapters, both in themselves and in the broader context of Super.

(Note: You don't have to like the Super manga to contribute, but even if you're critical of the work, please contribute constructively and reasonably. If you want to just bash the series and spread negativity, you can do it elsewhere; please don't do it here. Thank you.)

So, without further ado, we start with Chapters 1 to 4, which covers the whole of the 'Battle of Gods' arc, and corresponds to the first 'Super' movie (technically a Z movie, but you know what I mean). At this stage, the Chapters are much shorter than they will eventually become, and the manga's treatment of the material is abridged compared to the other modes in which it appears - but it also has some unique content and emphases of its own, which are pretty cool to see and which set up the manga's own next arc.

(EDIT: Upon reflection, I think it's probably better to do the whole re-read in a single thread, so I'll be doing future updates here too).

Chapter 1 - The God of Destruction’s Prophetic Dream/God of Destruction's Premonition
20 June 2015
Chapter Notes
  • "Time has passed", but I'd be interested in knowing just how much for the Earth-bound parts of this issue, and whether the action is telescoped a bit overall. Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return!, set 2 years after the fight with Buu, has Goku tell Chi Chi that Mr. Satan gave him money to keep quiet, which exchange this issue seems to be depicting.
  • Goku's spending his time farming (boring himself on his tractor), but it's clear enough that he's a cash-crop farmer rather than a subsistence farmer - firstly, because there's no way he could actually manage to feed himself at the rate he eats, secondly, because he mentions that his work is to "make money", and finally, in 超 #27, Goku appears to be leaving his produce at market. Perhaps his crops include the 'Thank-Goodness Seed Radishes' that appear in Yo!.
  • Everything appears to be made by Capsule Corp - including crappy old tractors, apparently. Bulma will be more generous in giving Goku a top-of-the-line Gull-Wing air car to help with his work in 超 #27.
  • Goku trains in SSj and fights against his imagined foes, Freeza and Cell, and sees himself beating them both with relative ease. If Goku's imagination is accurate, this would indicate he's now rather stronger in SSj than Perfect Cell.
  • Goku scolding Goten for not doing his job always gives me a chuckle - shades of TFS Goku, almost.
  • Goten mentions that even Gyuu Mao is totally broke now, so things have moved on from DB #426, where Chi Chi says that her money from Gyuu Mao was running out by the time of the 25th Budokai, to their logical conclusion.
  • Favourite art: Beerus picking dubiously at the food served him by the bug aliens - seems to sum him up in a panel, somehow.
  • The bug aliens are so surprised by Beerus accusing them of trying to poison him, that one of them reveals the poison bottle from behind his back in the reaction panel.
  • In the Viz manga, there's a panel where they neglect to censor Satan's name on his flying car.
  • The interstitial between 超 #1 and #2 touches off a running gag that I always enjoy - "Vegeta impoverishes Bulma/Bulma the Piggy Bank". This time Vegeta refuses Satan's money, but he also does it in the Tournament of Power arc when Bulma ends up agreeing to pay Android #18 and Roshi to enter, and at the end where Android #17 is gifted a huge cruiser, which hugely aggravates Bulma.
Chapter 2 - Goku’s Defeat/Goku Defeated
18 July 2015
Chapter Notes
  • Beerus mentions that he asked Freeza to destroy the planet Vegeta - so, Freeza's motivations for eradicating the Saiyans to date include the rise in power of a number of Saiyans (DB #257), a potential union of Saiyans against him (DB #257 and #262), the premonition of the rise of a powerful Saiyan, even a Super Saiyan (DB #262 and DBminus) or the Super Saiyan God (DBminus), and now Beerus's own instructions to destroy the planet. By this point, you feel he'd've been stupid not to do it...
  • Beerus remembers wiping out the dinosaurs on Earth for their rudeness - obviously, it's a gag, but Dragon World still has dinosaurs on Earth in the present Age (see, e.g., DB #207 and #209).
  • It shocks Beerus that anyone could beat Freeza, which interests him - another confirmation, if any were needed, of how far above the rest of the mortal realm Freeza was, even nowadays (with the exception of the threats that show up specifically on Earth from time to time) - compare that with DB #445, where Freeza is likewise the measuring stick.
  • We get our first look at Beerus's planet - pyramid-shaped, and dominated by one huge tree. Presumably, given Beerus's connection to Kaioshin (超 #15), it is in the same realm as the world of the Kaioshins (though it could be in the afterlife, like Kaio's). The Egyptian-influenced visual theme for Gods of Destruction will reappear throughout the rest of the series, as other Gods of Destruction emerge.
  • Goku is back on Kaio's world - restored as of 超 Bonus Comic #1 (see below) - though Bubbles and Kaio remain dead. Apparently, Kaio's continued state of death has done nothing to affect his position, despite the information given by Toriyama in the Super Exciting Guide (Character Volume) that says following death of the incumbent, a new Kaio is chosen by lottery from other Shin-jin.
  • Kaio describes Beerus as a God of "Chaos", and the Elder Kaioshin will assume that Champa wants Dragon Balls for some malign purpose in 超 #3, but Toriyama has already given a fuller and more nuanced description of the respective roles of the Kaioshin and Gods of Destruction in Chozenshuu 1. Beerus will likewise claim in 超 #15 that he acts with a view to the cosmic balance (accurately, but still a little dubiously, given his personal M.O. - Whis does laugh at him for saying it, after all).
  • Beerus notes that all Saiyans have black hair - established by Vegeta in DB #333, as a reason why Trunks can't be a Saiyan.
  • Goku moves up through the SSj gears against Beerus, showing SSj, SSj2, and SSj3 - he did this last to buy time against Buu in DB #474, and he'll next do it in 超 #29, to satisfy the Zeno twins. It's not typical for him to do this just as part of an evolving fight, though sometimes he will transform into selected lower forms as an initial test of strength (before escalating to an appropriate form), to buy time, or for specific advantages. Beerus seems to notice the difference between SSj and SSj2, though - it becomes a bit of a gag that Zeno can't tell the difference between Goku's SSj and SSj2 in 超 #29, directly referencing Babidi's comment.
  • We get the first mention here that only Gods can sense the ki of other Gods - confirmed again by Piccolo in 超 #4, and various other characters after this.
  • Champa mentions that Beerus is "already awake", maybe implying that at least some of his actions in Universe 7 were undertaken while Beerus was still asleep. He will later state that he's been collecting them for decades, so given Beerus's tendencies (and the movie line that he'd been sleeping for 39 years - "barely a cat-nap"), this would fit.
  • Favourite art: SSj3 Goku vs. Beerus - punching a hole through a planet is a new one, and the panels really show the difference in power between Beerus and Goku - I'm particularly fond of the panel where Goku tumbles after Beerus flicks him - that one's very dynamic.
  • SSj3 Goku blasts a hole clean through Kaio's planet before Beerus beats him, which is not the first time Kaio's had his planet damaged through Beerus's presence - Toriyama notes in a Q&A for the Full-Colour release that the planet is really a fragment of Kaio's original planet, which Beerus destroyed after losing a game.
Chapter 3 - Beerus’ Wrath/The Rage of Beerus
21 August 2015
Chapter Notes
  • The ocean liner where Bulma's birthday party is taking place is named the "Princess Bul(u)ma".
  • Even Bee the dog is present here, and seems as shocked as the Humans at how Buu is overpowered by Beerus, which is pretty funny.
  • Vegeta's bingo dance doesn't make it into the main material, but the interstitials before and after this issue show him practicing it, and then miffed that he didn't get to do it. I think this is a nice touch, as fans tend to regard his willingness to abase himself like this for the sake of his friends and family to be a major character development - it's good that it's referenced.
  • In Vegeta's flashback, we get one of our few manga views of Planet Vegeta (last seen in DBminus), and our first of King Vegeta (King Vegeta III, as Vegeta is designated as "Vegeta IV" by the Galactic King in 超 #43). He seems to be modelled generally on his classic anime depiction; he'll look slightly different in Dragon Ball Super: Broly. He's not in his most dignified mode here, I guess.
  • Beerus figures he'll have to destroy Planet Vegeta eventually, since the Saiyans are "out of control"; this is probably the first manga indication that the Gods of Destruction have a legitimate role in the cosmic balance - as we've seen, though, Beerus will end up delegating it to Freeza.
  • This issue continues a theme of Vegeta's deepening bond with Bulma - that they have a connection appropriately described as "love" isn't addressed till DB #462, but becomes a feature of the Buu arc at various points. It's development will be continued in the series with (openly) mutually-expressed possessiveness (超 #3, #6, #46), a growing attachment of Vegeta to Bulma and their shared life (particularly 超 #27), and an increase in tenderness generally (超 #26). Toriyama notes that Saiyans don't generally bond romantically or have much notion of family, and also that his relationship with Bulma, started by his wounded pride, changed Vegeta bit by bit. To be sure, the development of the relationship in Super represents a complete change from Vegeta's expressed attitude in, say, DB #347.
  • In this instance, Vegeta gets a massive rage boost - with the important exception of SSj transformations, rage boosts per se don't happen for Vegeta up to this point; they're really more part of Gohan's power profile rather than that of any other main character. But this establishes rage as one of the features of Vegeta's path to power, and will come again in 超 #40, when he gets SSjBe.
  • Favourite art: Vegeta's flurry against Beerus - a real sense of motion and power here, enhanced by some cool water effects. We've seen battles over and under water in Dragon Ball before, but I don't think the manga has shown us one that skims over its surface.
  • The Elder Kaioshin says "There's no way [Champa] will use [the Dragon Balls] for good", implying that Champa is a malign presence, as such, rather than part of the Universal order (it isn't explicitly stated yet that Champa is a God of Destruction, but the visual similarities with Beerus should probably clue the reader in). The Elder clearly speaks as if he knows Champa personally, but perhaps his perspective is a little skewed when it comes to Gods of Destruction just as a Kaioshin, or even on a personal level, since Toriyama has stated that Beerus sealed him in the Z-Sword after a spat way back when (thus also casting doubt on his claim that "a bad guy" sealed him away "because he was scared of me", in DB #479)...
Chapter 4 - Battle of Gods/Battle of Gods
19 September 2015
Chapter Notes
  • The food stalls in the background on the ocean liner get a couple more additions - in all, we see stalls for 'Takoyaki', 'Sushi', 'Ramen', 'Okonomiyaki' (Videl's fave, according to the Super Exciting Guide), and 'Western Things'.
  • Whatever time we may place parts of Issue 1, Videl's pregnancy fixes the date for 超 #2 - #4 at no earlier than 4-and-a-bit years after the fight with Buu (assuming Pan is close to turning 5 years old at the 28th Budokai, which is 10 years after the fight with Buu - there isn't any wiggle room for the overall gap here, either, as Uub is stated to be 10 at the Budokai.
  • Of course, I've always regarded this particular incident as (retrospectively) the time Goku refers to in DB #518, when Goku says he visited Bulma "five years ago". Of course, by this reckoning Goku will have visited a number of times since then as well, though most times this would've been 'on business' (e.g., getting a new Dragon Radar, training with Vegeta, etc.).
  • This is the first manga evidence (besides the Revival of F promo manga, which was released first) that establishes that Gohan is still at least able to activate the SSj transformation since he received his power-up from the Elder Kaioshin.
  • Despite the high-impact nature of the fight, the God of Destruction manages to destroy surprisingly little - despite the fact that the fight goes straight through a city, just like in the movie, it leaves it completely pristine.
  • Unlike the movie, Goku doesn't absorb the power of SSjG into his own, and despite Toriyama's comments on this score, SSjG will be added to the roster of Goku's accessible transformations on top of the standard SSj ones he can already access, and it shows up in every manga arc from this point (超 #13, #22, #29, and #51 for Goku alone, besides a number of appearances where Vegeta also uses it). As the manga has had 2 years to reflect on what the movie shows us (and even some months after Revival of F, so it can factor that in), it may be that the manga is already travelling in this direction - Goku will next demonstrate SSjG in 超 #13, published 21 June 2016, which I think is rather earlier than the anime, which relies on SSjB for much of the time.
  • 超 #3 already had Champa address the Kaioshins as belonging to Universe 7, but Beerus spells out that there are 12 Universes (and Whis will deepen this in forthcoming issues).
  • Favourite art: The final clash up in the Stratosphere, particularly the panel of SSjG Goku unleashing his Kamehameha.
  • Of course, we see the link with Revival of F in seeing the travails of Freeza's ailing army - we got Avo and Cado in Yo!, we see Garana (RIP), Tagoma (also RIP), Shisami (though he isn't named here - also also RIP) and Sorbet (also also also RIP) here, and Tagoma, Shisami and Sorbet all appeared in the promo manga as well. Garana is described as the 'second strongest' - presumably Tagoma, "on par with Zarbon and Dodoria" is the strongest until Freeza offs him (or else maybe Shisami, who likewise has this description applied in the movie - he is not named or made much of in any of his manga appearances).
  • This issue seems to me to re-establish (and take to the next level) the classic Dragon Ball theme of "No matter how strong you are, there's always someone stronger". Goku obtains a whole new level of power, and despite this, fails to win, and then learns that this is just the beginning. This type of world expansion completely upturns the picture Goku has of his power as of the Buu arc, where he's way stronger than everyone else, whether alive or dead (until Buu eats himself, which touches off a new escalation). Dragon Ball Super takes this to heart as its most abiding theme to date (arguably even more than Dragon Ball did), as Goku effectively spends much of his time losing his way to victory. It's great to see in its faithfulness to this theme, and it's good that so far the series is holding its nerve in this regard. When it stops doing that, it's time for the series to end - so, long may it continue.
Bonus Chapter 1
18 July 2015
Chapter Notes
  • I get that this is a gag bonus comic, but it seems Porunga can understand English for the lulz, when he wants to shaft Kaio. What a jerk.
  • Again, getting that this is a gag, but there seems to be a tendency in modern Dragon Ball to forget that both dragons should have multiple wishes, as Porunga pops off after a single wish; Shenron does the same in Battle of Gods (though arguably, he just wants to get away from Beerus), and after 2 wishes in the Revival of F movie (he just gives one again in the manga) - maybe this is an indicator of how soon after Battle of Gods this is, since the Dragon Balls can be restored after 4 months if not all of the wishes are used, which would place Revival of F about 8-10 months after Battle of Gods (in the movie, Piccolo estimates Freeza's arrival at around 6 months after his revival) - but it may have just been forgotten that Shenron should still have 3. The anime doubles down on this in one episode by having everyone fight over Shenron's one wish, and he likewise has one wish again in Dragon Ball Super: Broly. Fortunately, the Moro arc is in line with the 'non-gag' continuity by at least having Porunga grant 3 wishes in 超 #48.
So, that's everything I have from this part of the series! Over to you guys - what are your thoughts on this part? Anything that stands out or that you enjoy from this part of the series - whether big themes or tiny details? Let's have it!
Last edited by Magnificent Ponta on Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Super Re-Read, #1 (Chs. 1-4 & Bonus Ch. 1)

Post by The Undying » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:26 pm

I do enjoy revisiting Super's manga from time to time. It never quite manages to change my view on individual story arcs as they were originally published in V Jump, but it's a good way of gleaning new insights on elements that may have previously gone unnoticed without the context of a full readthrough.

The manga's adaptation of Battle of Gods offers a nicely truncated rendition of the original film, but I think it goes without saying that the actual movie remains the definitive version. Vegeta's bingo dance (save for the interstitial) and Goku's comment about being unsatisfied with how he achieved his power are now omitted, which, unfortunately, doesn't allow that central message about there being stronger opponents to carry as much weight as it does otherwise. It's thematically appropriate to have Super Saiyan God portrayed as this ridiculous new standard of power only to pull the rug out from underneath the audience's expectations by reminding them it's still not the best thing since sliced bread, but with a lot of the movie's subtleties missing, the overarching message doesn't quite pack that same punch. To the manga's credit, that huge gap in strength between Super Saiyan God and Goku's non-god forms is conveyed much more in line with the movies in its subsequent story arcs, particularly when Goku transforms into SSG to fight Hit, Toppo, or Merus in training, so I'm still pretty forgiving of Manga-BoG's exclusions as a whole.

Regardless, Manga-BoG is ultimately a superior retelling over Super's TV format; rather than trying to "extend" the story only to effectively bog itself down with tons of regressive fluff or unearned "character spotlights" that contributed nothing to the narrative, it instead opts to set up later story arcs that would serve as the basis for Super's original content. Champa's actions would directly lead to Resurrection 'F' and also indirectly lead to the Universe 6 arc, themselves only made possible because Beerus was preoccupied with locating Super Saiyan God. SSG was made reusable on top of Goku's previous transformations rather than getting absorbed, an idea the anime would eventually implement but that only the manga was uncompromisingly consistent with showing. In other words, it didn't treat its audience like they had selective memory. For that reason, it might be better to view Toyotaro's take on Battle of Gods as an extended prologue to Super rather than a self-contained story arc. That perspective is clearly more consistent with how the manga tends to encourage readers to watch the films themselves (see: Res 'F' and Broly) rather than engage with failed rehashes of stories most fans would have already experienced.

Definitely interesting material on its own terms. If the higher-ups considered a Battle of Gods retelling necessary, this would have been the best way to do it - rather than trying to exceed the original version, Toyotaro smartly chose to make it a broader set-up for Super in general. I'm okay with that.
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Re: The Super Re-Read, #1 (Chs. 1-4 & Bonus Ch. 1)

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:03 am

The Undying wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:26 pm
[...] I'm still pretty forgiving of Manga-BoG's exclusions as a whole.

Regardless, Manga-BoG is ultimately a superior retelling over Super's TV format; rather than trying to "extend" the story only to effectively bog itself down with tons of regressive fluff or unearned "character spotlights" that contributed nothing to the narrative, it instead opts to set up later story arcs that would serve as the basis for Super's original content.
Thanks for your comments! I think this aspect is probably the most striking to me, when I come to re-read the first arc against the background of the 'bloat' we're currently seeing in the Moro arc.

It may just be because Toyotarou has the security of the 'definitive' filmic version to fall back on, but I find it fascinating that even while including content that isn't in the film, he manages to create a coherent, efficient (almost spare), but also enjoyable account of an arc in much fewer pages than he has to work with currently. It moves at pace and yet, like you say, performs all the essential narrative set-up for what's coming - it's 'smart', as you put it. He can do it.

This makes me wonder whether the current 40+ page format is working against the kind of story Toyotarou is telling right now: whereas the Future Trunks arc was able to move between the future and the past, and between Earth and the Heavens, and the Tournament of Power was a smorgasbord of potential scene-changes to create new energy and escalation, the Moro arc doesn't have so many opportunities for narrative interplay, so he has to 'fill' it by less compelling means; also, plotting for 'hooks' that can only meaningfully create suspense every 40+ pages makes for a less impactful narrative than a weekly format, where he'd've had to plot for that kind of move every 15 pages.
The Undying wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:26 pm
For that reason, it might be better to view Toyotaro's take on Battle of Gods as an extended prologue to Super rather than a self-contained story arc. That perspective is clearly more consistent with how the manga tends to encourage readers to watch the films themselves (see: Res 'F' and Broly) rather than engage with failed rehashes of stories most fans would have already experienced.
I think that's a fair assessment - everything we know from the manga material seems driven to tell the reader that (various relatively minor details aside), the movie stories are basically 'definitive'. That said, I would like to look over what manga-specific material there is for Revival of F, including the promo Toyotarou originally did - maybe that would be rewarding.

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Re: The Super Re-Read, #1 (Chs. 1-4 & Bonus Ch. 1)

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:20 am

I think going with a shorter version was the right call, as the movie remains the superior version, so trying to retell the whole story would be pointless. It's a shame the anime didn't take this road as well. The downside to this though is that it doesn't function as a full story, but rather a recap to get people ready for what's to come. I am happy they skipped the following 2 movies though.

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Re: The Super Re-Read, #1 (Chs. 1-4 & Bonus Ch. 1)

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:41 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:20 am
I think going with a shorter version was the right call, as the movie remains the superior version, so trying to retell the whole story would be pointless. It's a shame the anime didn't take this road as well. The downside to this though is that it doesn't function as a full story, but rather a recap to get people ready for what's to come. I am happy they skipped the following 2 movies though.
Thanks for your comments! I'm curious, though - when you say "it doesn't function as a full story", do you mean that the story it tells is, from your perspective, incomplete in some significant way? Or is what you're saying more like, 'It doesn't tell the whole story, which is a shame, but then again it's probably just as well because it wouldn't be as good anyway'? If the former, in what way would you say it is incomplete?

I'm interested in your views here, because I think you're probably the one person on here most vocally supportive of the Battle of Gods movie as the last truly worthwhile work in Dragon Ball (that may be a slight exaggeration of your position; apologies if there's some misrepresentation there) - do you feel the manga version has any strengths of its own, as opposed to how faithfully it may (or may not) represent the earlier film material? And given that you've said there wouldn't be much point in retelling it as such, do you think there might have been some other route the manga might have taken that could've been better than the decisions made here?

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Re: The Super Re-Read, #1 (Chs. 1-4 & Bonus Ch. 1)

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:08 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:41 pm

When you say "it doesn't function as a full story", do you mean that the story it tells is, from your perspective, incomplete in some significant way? Or is what you're saying more like, 'It doesn't tell the whole story, which is a shame, but then again it's probably just as well because it wouldn't be as good anyway'?

I think you're probably the one person on here most vocally supportive of the Battle of Gods movie as the last truly worthwhile work in Dragon Ball.

do you feel the manga version has any strengths of its own, as opposed to how faithfully it may (or may not) represent the earlier film material?

Do you think there might have been some other route the manga might have taken that could've been better than the decisions made here?
I think it's incomplete, as it doesn't flow like a complete story but rather a fast recap to get people up to speed. This is by no means a bad thing, as the majority of people reading the manga would've already seen the movie. I think a quick recap is what the anime should've done as well. I'm also happy that the manga skipped RF and Broly, as like with BOG, fans would've already seen them.

It's not an exaggeration at all, as not only do I think it's the last great work, but I go as far as saying it should've been the only one to come out of this revival. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed anything else, I just feel that BOG is the only one to offer something other than flashy fights and fan service. Unlike what came after, BOG had a story worth telling, and managed to develop its two leads and villain in meaningful ways. For me, BOG works as a perfect "final" to Goku's adventures before the time skip to EOZ.

I think its biggest strength is Toyotaro recognizing that retelling the whole story would be pointless, and instead went with a recap kind of story. Apart from that, the art is great and what's there is overall enjoyable. It doesn't have anything on its movie counterpart, but it's by no means bad, which I can't say for its anime counterpart which was just terrible.

I think skipping it altogether and jumping into the U6 arc would've been a better decision.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:03 am

This reminds me of the re-read that Cipher is doing on Twitter. It's cool to be able to relive these chapters and see details that went unnoticed at the time.

I have to say that despite being short, this BoG arc is a surprisingly cohesive and well done story, especially for someone like Toyo who was starting his work on DBS (having evolved a lot since then, in some ways at least). And that's the same thing I say about the current arc. I believe Moro arc will be a much more enjoyable story to read after a complete re-read without the gaps of a monthly manga

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by pepd » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:54 am

Love the changes and additions; Gokū being SSG was necessary, Champa in Ch 2, Vegeta vs Beerus was better portrayed, and Kibitoshin separating with Namekuseijin Dragon Balls was nice. Following that path, I would have loved if Toyotaro consulted Toriyama and added/changed stuff that was changed/removed in the movie.

The Bingo dance could be funny with the right execution, but the movie make it cringy for me, so I'm glad it wasn't included as in the movie.
I feel Beerus ordering Freeza to kill the saiyajins was an unnecessary way of integrate the new lore, and that takes more than it adds.
I'm also glad the SSG ritual stuff was reduced to a few panels, as I think is one thing that feels out of place in DB.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:10 am

pepd wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:54 am
The Bingo dance could be funny with the right execution, but the movie make it cringy for me, so I'm glad it wasn't included as in the movie.

I feel Beerus ordering Freeza to kill the saiyajins was an unnecessary way of integrate the new lore, and that takes more than it adds.
That was the point of the dance, to be cringy and uncomfortable, as that's how it was for Vegeta.

I completely agree with this, however, it's worth mentioning that him ordering their destruction was added to Super, it wasn't in the movie. The movie had him simply authorize it, not order it.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:50 pm

pepd wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:54 am
I feel Beerus ordering Freeza to kill the saiyajins was an unnecessary way of integrate the new lore, and that takes more than it adds.
I'm also glad the SSG ritual stuff was reduced to a few panels, as I think is one thing that feels out of place in DB.
Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:10 am
I completely agree with this, however, it's worth mentioning that him ordering their destruction was added to Super, it wasn't in the movie. The movie had him simply authorize it, not order it.
I agree insofar as I don't think it adds anything meaningful, since Freeza already has a lot of reasons for destroying the Saiyans (some of them specified as recently as DBminus), but for the same reason, I don't think it really takes anything away from it - given Freeza has so many reasons, Beerus "telling" him to do it just gives him 'permission' to do what he was already set on doing.

Do you think this strengthening of the connection is perhaps related in some way to the background of Revival of F, which came out a little before both this issue and the first episode in the anime? Since Toriyama mentioned in Volume "F" that Beerus and Freeza have a certain rapport thanks to their mutual love of destruction, perhaps it seemed natural to link that up with Beerus's own reflection that he would have to destroy the Saiyans one day, and the fact that they worked for Freeza at the time?

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:05 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:50 pm
Do you think this strengthening of the connection is perhaps related in some way to the background of Revival of F, which came out a little before both this issue and the first episode in the anime? Since Toriyama mentioned in Volume "F" that Beerus and Freeza have a certain rapport thanks to their mutual love of destruction, perhaps it seemed natural to link that up with Beerus's own reflection that he would have to destroy the Saiyans one day, and the fact that they worked for Freeza at the time?
I like how it was originally, as in Beerus wanting to do it, but giving Freeza the OK instead. I'm not however a fan of Beerus directly ordering him to, as it takes away from Freeza's own desire to do it.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:34 pm

I really love the BoG movie, and I don't think a manga-fied version was necessary. I'm glad Freeza and Broly were skipped. That being said, these chapters do a well-enough job of summing up the events without leaving out anything completely necessary (other than the Monaka reference which is shoe-horned in later, and Goku talking about how he wishes he could've achieved the power of God on his own).

The element that stands out to me the most is the sheer energy conveyed by the art. Expressions are great and everything feels hectic. I know some complained about this version of Goku, but I think it's pretty faithful to Toriyama's light-hearted Goku.

I like the way Champa and Vados are woven in. The Universe 6 vs 7 tournament may be my favorite arc of Super outside of the films, so I'm looking forward to re-reading the next set of chapters!

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:43 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:03 am
That said, I would like to look over what manga-specific material there is for Revival of F, including the promo Toyotarou originally did - maybe that would be rewarding.
So...I got distracted by this idea :lol:

But have no fear! I'm still on track to have the next 'true' Super Re-Read instalment (Chs. 5-8) up on time next week - I'll just be taking a slight detour onto the Revival of F material first (seems the right place for it chronologically, I guess); I should have that up at some point later today for anyone who wants to pull out what the manga has on this storyline; to me, it turned out to be quite a surprising amount...

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:04 pm

The Super Re-Read: Revival of F Promo (and Other Manga Material)

Image

Okay, now this one might seem a little out of place in a Super re-read, as it's just a promo for a technically "Z" film, and was written before anything else Toyotarou did for Dragon Ball Super, and the Super manga itself skips over the story, so you could object that this doesn't belong in a true re-read of the series. Also, I said I'd be doing 4 Chapters per go, and this is only 3 Chapters, which don't even tell the whole story - besides, there isn't even an official English release of this promo, either.

Valid points. Guilty as charged. -_-'

But it's the closest thing we have to the Super manga doing any sort of treatment of this arc at present, and so it seems right and proper to give it some recognition as part of what Toyotarou has depicted in this medium - otherwise, the sum total we get is the foreshadowing in 超 #4, a tiny narration in 超 #5, a bafflingly-translated interstitial drawing in Volume 1, some dialogue in 超 #14, and another summary and a small flashback in 超 #32. So we'll do all of it. Actually, I was surprised by just how much of it was covered in the manga - as I said earlier, I'll be back onto the main run of the Super manga this time next week, right on time to meet the fortnightly schedule.

As ever, lots of credit for information reference goes to Kanzenshuu. Anyway, on we go...

Revival of F Chapter 1
21 February 2015
Chapter Notes
  • Toyotarou draws all the flashbacks from scratch, even the ones where he closely follows Toriyama's original. Toriyama would probably have just photocopied his old work and been done with it :lol:
  • 超 #32 confirms for us that while this is Hell, it's Hell specifically for Freeza. While Goku mentions that "It looks like a lot of fun!", Freeza replies that "For me...nothing is more Hellish than this." Presumably something similar could've been contrived for Dabura, but as Enma says in DB #478, Heaven works plenty well for this purpose.
  • Toyotarou wrote this promo before any of the Super manga series, but it's nice that he thought enough to dovetail 超 #4 with this, as there, Sorbet orders a search for a planet with Dragon Balls, and here, nothing has come up in the search for Namek.
  • There's a nice, brief, 'slice-of-life' set of panels here on Earth, showing our heroes going about their daily business - Gohan and Videl with their new-born daughter, Ten and Chaozu farming, and Kuririn has joined the Satan City police.
  • Favourite art: It's good to give Shenron a nice big panel all to himself, to establish the awe and majesty of the dragon. As a plot device, it's sometimes easy to forget this dimension of his existence (and it does him more justice than the teensy panel he gets in 超 #4).
  • The rain of Freeza bits, the attempt to (literally) pull himself together, and the stare of the disembodied eye is all genuinely sinister and creepy. I don't know if that's what they were going for (I think it is, in both this and the movie), but it's the impression I come away with...
  • Tagoma seems a really unwilling soldier in the Freeza army, just as a character - he worries about Freeza's dictatorial tendencies (well, duh), doubts his ability to impose order, and will gainsay him upon his revival (which will get him unceremoniously offed). Unlike the anime, he doesn't come back with a post-training power-up, and there's no Ginyu body-switch stuff either.
  • Toyotarou will have occasion once again to reconceive the scene of Goku's finishing blast on Namek from the front, in a "Toyotarou drew it!" which also features Bardock. Besides being in colour, much of Goku's posture is markedly different, and seems in some ways more faithful to the original in the promo manga (in fairness, Toyotarou says he's taken some license with the pose here, and it's a pretty cool image in any case).
  • I guess Sorbet's former position as a staff officer in the 3rd star system raises the question of his path to power here - in the collapse of Freeza's empire, one may question why people like Tagoma and Garana would fall in behind Sorbet and let him control the army, rather than seek power for themselves (like Avo and Cado apparently attempted to do in Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return!) - perhaps they recognise that the real issue is manpower (as seen in the first scene) and that they would therefore not manage any better if they were in charge? Nevertheless, I guess with such people behind him, Sorbet's position as interim commander must have been secure enough, even in a posture of retreat...
  • On that note, it's interesting that Sorbet sees the whole rationale of reviving Freeza as a means of restoring order across the crumbling empire, but Freeza's not in the least bit interested in that when he's actually revived - it's immediately all about revenge. Since the whole army is annihilated in the events of Revival of F, it really makes clear how much of a liability Freeza's mindset is to stability in his empire, irrespective of his power, and how he's prepared to throw it away for revenge, rather than acting prudently like Tagoma suggests.
  • Freeza's finger beam seems maybe like it kills Tagoma on impact in the manga, or at least does real damage, but it also appears to have a telekinetic aspect in flinging him out of the ship (like in the movie), which would be an interesting fusion of some classic Freeza abilities.
  • This establishes that even Freeza accepts people above him in power, at least in theory - but with the caveat that they are Gods and ancient terrors. It's also in line with 超 #2, where Freeza takes instructions from Beerus in destroying the Planet Vegeta, and Toriyama has mentioned their destructive tendencies meant they got along well, except for one instance where Freeza overstepped and got clobbered; I guess that would sharpen the sense of subordination here.
  • It's interesting that Freeza has never trained. It's been stated at various points that his power is natural and he's a mutant, but things like Daizenshuu #4 p. 59 also indicate that he has some learned abilities, like psychokinesis - I guess that's not a product of 'training', as such, then.
  • Fortunately, I guess, Toyotarou is more cautious and ambiguous with his power scaling than the film and anime, which seem pretty wonky overall - one element of this ambiguity appears here, where there isn't any mention of Freeza aiming to attain a power level of (*gasp*) 1.3 million (frankly, this sounds like Dr. Evil demanding "...One Million Dollars" in how comically out-of-place it is).
Revival of F Chapter 2
20 March 2015
Chapter Notes
  • Favourite art: There's plenty to like in the sparring between Goku, Vegeta and Whis - Goku's attack on Whis, superimposed on an 'SSjG Goku background' (which in turn seems to be taken directly from a shot in Battle of Gods), is a really nice nod to Goku's putting everything into his attacks against Piccolo Daimao and Mr. Popo, where the Oozaru appears (DB #160-161, #163). Also, Whis blocking attacks from both Goku and Vegeta simultaneously is a really good panel, and probably our first practical demonstration of Ultra Instinct. The double-page spread showing Freeza's army is great, too.
  • Of course, it's training like this against Whis that will enable Goku and Vegeta to take on Jiren in a perfectly co-ordinated assault in 超 #41-42, emphasising the theme of 'Teamwork' in a way that is generally present throughout the series, whether positively or negatively - Goku can only achieve SSjG with outside assistance; here, Goku and Vegeta resolutely avoid teamwork in this story and come to grief (and in the movie, it's stated more than once that they would be able to take Freeza without trouble if they worked together); they try to do the same against Zamas, but they end up using fusion, and Vegeta subordinates his pride to the greater good; the Tournament of Power uses 'teamwork' as a theme throughout (and it deserves more detailed discussion then and there); and Goku and Vegeta can only beat Broly by using Fusion. In short, one of the key themes of Super, I would suggest, is that Goku and Vegeta need each other, and no matter how hard they try to avoid the conclusion, they are stronger together than they are apart. It's a step further than the classic 'rivalry' position that Dragon Ball has always entertained for them.
  • Apart from being cool art, perhaps the image of SSjG Goku in the background indicates that Goku is wielding the power of SSjG in base form (the so-called 'Saiyan Beyond God' concept). More on this later, I guess.
  • The brief panel of Beerus's dwelling in the twisted tree is a nice little bit of detail - I don't think we see it in the manga, otherwise, though it appears a couple of times in the movies. Unsurprisingly, it looks basically the same in both media.
  • Whis autographs Goku and Vegeta's clothes - while the Universe 6 tournament takes place "shortly" after Revival of F, I guess either Goku and Vegeta don't change their clothes all that much, or else Whis likes to annoy them by repeatedly signing their clothes. Concept by Whis :lol:
  • On that note, Vegeta's combat suit has changed, and he will sport it until 超 #14, when he and Goku revert to their classic outfits. Toriyama notes that the new look, in Vegeta's case, is a combat suit enhancement by Capsule Corp under Bulma's directions.
  • This serves as the conceptual introduction of 'Ultra Instinct', though it isn't yet mentioned by name. Whis describes it as every part of the body responding and moving of its own accord - this idea also becomes something of a theme in Super, starting in earnest from 超 #27; from 超 #40, Vegeta will abandon it as a goal, but it will remain Goku's primary goal going forward - as of 超 #63, he has achieved the 'Sign' of this power at will, and is on the threshold of achieving the true form of the technique; Merus reiterates Whis's claim from 超 #27 that a wielder of True Ultra Instinct cannot be bested by any foe. While it's described in a drier, more technical sense here, it will gain an emotional dimension in 超 #41, where Goku says he's dispensed with "unnecessary emotions", and Merus will clarify that it requires the achievement of emotional control in the face of a jarring shock, in 超 #52 (which is broadly in line with the two occasions Goku manages to delve into some level of the technique in the Tournament of Power).
  • It wouldn't be a Toriyama-derived work without a poop joke somewhere - dusting off some Dr. Slump-style classics...
  • This issue foreshadows two particular developments that aren't covered in the manga promo for Revival of F, though of course they appear in the movie - Goku succumbs to a sucker-punch from Whis, who tells him that he lets himself get taken off-guard too much, and that the body is fragile when devoid of ki (realised when Goku gets shot by Sorbet); and Whis mentions stepping back briefly in time to fix mistakes, which he will obviously do when Freeza destroys Earth.
  • Whis is coy about his status at this stage - while his sister Vados has appeared already (chronologically speaking) and re-appears in 超 #5, and a cosmic job is implied throughout since he's Beerus's attendant, he isn't himself stated to be an Angel until 超 #18. Of course, there will be a great deal of expansion of what Angels can and cannot do from that point onwards, both in the Future Trunks arc in passing and in-depth in the Moro Arc, particularly from 超 #55 onwards.
  • Among the species represented by Freeza's army appear to be one of Appule's race, one of Kiwi's race, one of Reddict's race (From Dragon Ball GT), a guy who bears a resemblance to Cranberry (from the Moro arc, though it obviously isn't him), an alien on a leash who bears some resemblance to Yakon, and various 'background Freeza scrub'-types (such as the pair that Kuririn and Gohan kill) that we've seen before in Dragon Ball - a number of them are direct copies from those we see the Namekian warriors take out, for example. There are also a couple that bear resemblance to races represented in the anime - one looks something like a Yardrat (of the anime-based variety, though 超 #52 establishes that they come in multiple types), and another looks like a Kanassan from the original Bardock Special.
  • The movie has Freeza destroy North City by way of greeting. My translation of the manga calls the city "the Eastern Capital", despite the fact that it also has Gohan saying that Freeza has landed near North City. If this bit isn't just a translation error, then the Eastern Capital really gets it hard in the Dragon Ball manga. Chronologically, it first appears in Jaco the Galactic Patrolman #4, where Jaco and Dr. Omori visit to obtain supplies and first meet Bulma's older sister, Tights. Omori says it "has many lousy people", and Jaco is scandalised to see it "filled with crime". Ultimately, however, the pair save it from catastrophe after the failed launch of the Twinkle 8 space rocket. This is merely a reprieve, as Nappa wipes it off the face of the Earth in DB #213; of course, it's destroyed again by Buu at some point or other (along with the rest of the world, ultimately), and now again by Freeza. If it is an error and this is really North City, then we've only been in this general area before, during the search for Dr. Gero's laboratory - according to Daizenshuu #4, this general area of Dragon World's Earth has a whole lotta nothin', but apparently the gang also fought #17 and #18 around here, and Piccolo first met Raditz in the wider grid area, too. If this is North City, the artistic depiction of it backing onto the coast doesn't line up with the Daizenshuu, where it's a long way inland amid the mountains. Conversely, the Daizenshuu does show East City as having a coastal element to it.
  • Tenshinhan mentions that he left Chaozu and Yamcha behind this time, which is a little curious; however, Toriyama has mentioned that Yamcha occasionally meets up with Ten and Chaozu to help with the farm, so I guess it could just be that time of year. Gohan also mentions that nobody told Goten or Trunks anything, just like Bulma instructed, so that they wouldn't join in - Toriyama rationalises this as not wanting to lose the next generation of warriors, and various reasons will be contrived for them not to appear in future fights (as with Vegeta forbidding their entry into the Tournament of Power, in 超 #30, and them being deputised as Park Rangers by Android #17 so as to avoid the Moro fight, in 超 #56). Similarly, we get the first instance of "Buu can't participate" (of the more specific "Buu is asleep" variety), which is pretty much a running motif in Super until Buu finally fights Moro in 超 #47-50 (only to...fall asleep, again).
  • The power-scaling wonkiness continues with Gohan uncertain whether he can transform anymore. As of the Buu arc, he really didn't have to, and the current situation leaves his status pretty much up in the air until the Tournament of Power arc, and particularly 超 #39, re-establish him as a powerhouse who doesn't need transformations (and has, by this point, completely eschewed them).
Revival of F Chapter 3
21 April 2015
Chapter Notes
  • This issue reintroduces Jaco, the Galactic Patrolman, subject of a Toriyama-written series of the same name. In that series, the eponymous hero is sent to Earth to intercept a Saiyan child (who would, in time, grow up to be Goku). Jaco (full name: Jaco Teirimentenpibosshi) meets Dr. Omori, failed temporal scientist, and the travelling rich girl Tights (who turns out to be Bulma's older sister), and gets caught up in a small adventure with them. Fortunately, Jaco misses Goku's landfall in Jaco+1, due to his ineptitude. However, he was sent to Earth in the first place because it was considered a low-stakes mission with which even he could be safely entrusted, which indicates how his peers see him.
  • Jaco's personal uselessness (disguised with the phrase "Super Elite", which he puts much emphasis on and which Bulma uses when browbeating him in this issue) is frankly in keeping with the general well-meaning uselessness of the Galactic Patrol, which is regularly emphasised (and characterised rather more charitably by Merus in 超 #63). Jaco himself, as will emerge in 超 #42-43, is responsible for 3 sectors, including Earth and its life-forms, which explains his (unwilling) presence here. Another reason for his reluctance may stem from Toriyama's statement that Freeza has clobbered the Galactic Patrol before, and so is a taboo subject.
  • Jaco still appears to be in the same spacecraft as he was some decades before - as stated in Jaco+1, this was a very old model even then. In the same issue, Bulma fixed this ship's broken antenna as a 5-year-old, and Dr. Briefs obtained the rights to use its gravity control technology (which is presumably what he used in his artificial gravity generators from DB #251 and #336). He'll get a swish new model in 超 #6. As Jaco was around 20 in Earth years when Goku first landed on Earth, he'd be in his sixties by this point, or thereabouts.
  • Another panel focusing on Freeza's forces include what looks like an Arlian, perhaps also a Plantian from Episode of Bardock, and at the bottom of the panel are a couple of older Yamamuro storyboard designs for Sorbet and Tagoma, seeing reuse as different characters. I'm sure I've missed a whole bunch of other possible references in these 'random aliens of the Freeza Force' panels.
  • Roshi's bulked up form has hitherto only been used for a maximum power Kamehameha, as in DB #14 and #51 - this is the first instance where it is used to amp his power for normal fighting, and it makes him rather stronger than the average Freeza scrub (and by extension, no doubt much stronger than his last recorded Power Level of 139, from DB #209) - given Dragon Ball Super: Broly's note that Freeza is looking for Battle Powers above 1000 in rebuilding his army after this incident, this is perhaps the lower bracket of power here also. By 超 #39, Roshi's developed and demonstrated a far superior approach to 'Bulking Out'. Ordinarily, the Turtle Hermit's vital statistics are 73/73/73.
  • At some point, inexplicably, Gohan feels the need to go SSj, with which he dispatches the (in this medium, unnamed) Shisami. Power level wonkiness persists with Gohan and Piccolo saying they can't beat Freeza, but Toyotarou at least leaves some wiggle room here, as they have both seen Freeza's final form and could conceivably be referring to this. But the movie and anime are much more explicit, having First Form Freeza take out Gohan (albeit in base, in the movie). This encounter is cut out entirely, as all the heroes remain in fine shape to power up for Goku to lock on to.
  • Vegeta's line, "What's everyone so worked up about? It's just Freeza" probably resonates with people in general, but I like Toyotarou's take when he mentions the iconic Dragon Ball villains: Cell is a villain from the future, Buu is a villain from the past, but Freeza is the enemy for the present day. I like that take on Freeza, just because it seems to justify his continued presence in a way that gets around purely functional considerations (i.e., 'what they'll do with the character'). Which is just as well, because almost all the arguments in favour of this story are functional ones...
  • Power scaling wonkiness abounds with base form Goku toying with Final Form Freeza, but one must assume that this is due to the "Saiyan Beyond God" concept. With SSjG as a fully-fledged and usable form in the rest of the Super manga, this presents something of a problem, unless one thinks of Goku's base form as simply much, much stronger than Piccolo and SSj Gohan at this point. I suppose another option is of some sort of god-ki infusion powering Goku up (though not to full SSjG level), though this is very speculative and against the apparent drift of Goku's statement that he doesn't even need to go SSj to beat Freeza.
  • Favourite art: There's plenty to like in the Goku-Freeza fight - the initial panel showing the clash between the two is pretty, and Goku's Kamehameha looks really good too - Toyotarou presumably figured he'd got a pretty dynamic pose down there, as he uses a very similar (though not quite the same) one for Goku's Kamehameha against Hit in 超 #13.
Collected Revival of F Material - 超 #5, 超 #14 and #32
Notes
  • I seem to recall that "a thousand" would be a more accurate translation for the number of soldiers Freeza has (in line with the movie). Kuririn says they were tough, but they're presumably all weaker than Tagoma/Dodoria/Zarbon-level (except perhaps Shisami, who may be around that level too). Presumably the sheer number of them against half a dozen defenders counts as a force-multiplier here?
  • Vegeta confirms that this is the end of Freeza's army, but presumably it doesn't take him long to build up a new one once he returns to life again - Dragon Ball Super: Broly shows him building a new force of fighters with Battle Powers of 1000 or above, in addition to some other characters who were with him from before Revival of F (and even as far back as DBminus), such as Berryblue and Kikono (but who would all presumably count as "non-combatant followers").
  • Favourite art: I think it's a really neat touch to get Freeza's death from his own point of view like that. Obviously, the course of events follows the movie very closely here as elsewhere, with Goku poaching Vegeta's kill to avoid Earth's destruction.
  • Between Goku stepping in to kill Freeza in the flashback in 超 #32 and the conversation between Bulma and Whis in 超 #14, it's crystal clear that the manga's version of events includes Freeza destroying Earth and Whis giving the heroes a 'do-over' by doing a three-minute reset, just like in the movie, and all the heroes saved by Whis (including Bulma) remember it happening. In fact, I'd say it's clear from foreshadowing in the promo and incidental detail elsewhere that there is very little changed between the movie depiction and the manga's account of events generally, even though we don't see it all - certainly the main story beats are the same, at least: Freeza goes Golden, Goku goes SSjB and eventually gets the upper hand, is taken off-guard in some fashion, Vegeta steps in and beats Freeza by also using SSjB, and Freeza destroys the world. Whis steps back in time to give Goku a second chance at stopping Freeza, and he kills him immediately. We see some changes of detail for the sake of story compression (with some minor added side benefits from a power-scaling perspective), but that's about it. The stories are basically identical at the macro level.
  • Since this particular story merely raises a problem, only to push a massive reset button on it - both figuratively (Freeza starts dead and ends dead) and literally (Whis resets time to give Goku another chance at stopping Freeza) - I guess one could be forgiven for thinking this story is functionally pretty pointless. If looked at in isolation, I think I'd agree, but I also think this story's true value is in the sheer number of new and important ideas it sets running in Super: Freeza dies in this, yes, but he becomes relevant again; he has a key role in resolving the Tournament of Power and in setting off the Broly storyline, and he is out there with more potential now. The introduction of SSjB (though not seen in the Promo manga) is a staple in Super, and brings full-circle Toriyama's intention (however adjusted) that Goku should stick to fighting in 'base' and 'SSj' in future - artistically, at least - without being totally arbitrary in having to power scale older forms up above newer ones. Whis's presence as an important and powerful being (more significant than Beerus, in his way) is reinforced here and is expanded on radically as Goku gains access to the Dragon World's uppermost echelons in the divine hierarchy going forward, and the position of Angels has been sharpened further in the Moro arc. Whis's training, and pointing Goku in the direction of Ultra Instinct has become his key goal in Dragon Ball Super, which owes its introduction to this storyline. Even somewhat minor points, like the (re-)introduction of Jaco and the Galactic Patrol, give Super a hook for when the focus shifts back to space again, and they get a key role in the Moro arc. I'd say this story gives the franchise so much to play with later, that its own intrinsic flaws can be forgiven for the sake of its significance.
Welp, that's all I've got this time - now it's your turn. What stands out to you? What did you enjoy? What might you rather have seen? Would you want a full adaptation of this storyline in the manga (whether by more flashbacks, or perhaps with a full set of issues)? What did you get from your re-read?

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:10 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:04 pm
I'll be back onto the main run of the Super manga this time next week, right on time to meet the fortnightly schedule.
Thanks for doing these. Every post here is considerably more level-headed than the sort of kneejerk takes I've observed in the manga thread lately, and if I'm gonna be blunt, much less exhausting to engage with by comparison. I'm glad this thread got a decent amount of traction.

I wish I had more to say about the promotional manga for Resurrection 'F', but it really does read exactly like a promotional manga. The art is jarring in a lot of panels, yet, bizarrely, feels greatly improved in the first chapter of Super, despite there only being a two month (?) gap between the last chapter of 'F' and Super's big debut. With the movie's "Saiyan Beyond God" concept advocated for here and some other power-scaling stuff, I think it's clear that this doesn't belong in Super's continuity outside of major story beats, but it's nice to see Toyotaro getting his feet wet with the main series material. I have to wonder if these chapters were drawn far in advance before they were published.

I alluded to it in my previous post above, but full transparency: I wouldn't be interested in seeing Res 'F' adapted or flashed back to ever again, and I like the film. It brought a lot of new concepts to the franchise and provided some fun character analysis for Goku, Vegeta and Freeza, but it has thoroughly served its purpose. I think Toyotaro would probably agree.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:12 pm

Since these chapters were never officially released by Viz, I had a hard time finding a readable version online...

I remember being really impressed with this manga when it first came out. Specifically, I really liked the way Goku and Freeza were drawn compared to the anime. Some of the promo art for this comic felt really spot on to Toriyama's character designs for the film.

Art aside, I was really into the story. That movie had a lot of hype at the time, and I still enjoy it now, even though a lot of folks seem to have turned on it. While it's not as meaty as BoG, I think it's a blast to watch and read. And even though this version of events is incomplete, it's still 100x preferable over the anime telling.

Chapter 1:
A lot of cute stuff. Obviously not as grandiose as the film. Toyotaro takes a page and a half for Freeza to kill a grunt in one shot, which is certainly not necessary. Like I said above, I like the way Toyo draws Freeza's first form compared to Yamamuro.

Chapter 2:
This was my favorite chapter. The action is high energy and flows well. The comedy bits are nailed, and the mystery of Whis is effectively conveyed. Merus assumes the stance Whis takes here, and he utilizes Whis' hand funnel technique as well, so the new arc is somewhat dependent on this promo comic for some of it's more blatant foreshadowing. The spread showing Freeza's army is full of Easter eggs, and if you weren't familiar with Toyble, this really showed how big of a fan Toyotaro was. Seeings Earth's forces assemble in a somewhat serious way after all these years was really exciting at the time.

Chapter 3:
Bulma/Jaco's bit is short but really funny. I don't think it'd be quite as good if you didn't know who Jaco was, but if you did, it was a really pleasant surprise. Still, this is really the only part of the manga I feel actually suffers from being rushed. Of course things are happening at a lightning pace, but there's not a ton to digest with this story to begin with. Toyotaro obviously got a preview of the animation because these fights pretty much replicate what we get in the final film.

Speaking of Jaco, while he's had some funny bits in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc, I feel like Toyotaro doesn't successfully portray the more quiet aspect of the character, which he DOES manage to pull off here. Again, it's copying the film, and Jaco is much more out of his element in the GPP arc, but I wish he'd calm down a tiny bit.

While we never get to see Golden Freeza vs SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, the events later in the DBS manga may imply that events don't unfold exactly the same as they do in the film. Since Golden Freeza's weakness is that his form is unstable, but SSB is also unstable during the U6 arc...does Goku actually use God for the beginning of the fight? Is Golden Freeza just drastically less stable than SSB?

Overall, I think this promo was really well done, and despite the fact that it doesn't cover ever event of the film, I really hope Viz releases a collected volume someday! I'm not holding my breath...

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by MechaTrunks » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:17 am

I don't think the canon of the manga contradicted the movies in anything else than the SSJGod form of Goku being a transformation and not his base state absorving its powers (which was confusing as hell).
I mean, even if the SSJBlue drained a lot of stamina, you just need the Golden Form to drain even much more stamina (it was Freezer's first time using that form outside of the time he discovered it) for the whole movie to make sense.

I would have liked to see the resurrection F arc retold in the manga (if it just had started with 45 page episodes and not just the 9-15 pages those chapters had, it could've been made), but if an arc had to be skipped, it was clearly this one.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:58 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:10 am
Thanks for doing these. Every post here is considerably more level-headed than the sort of kneejerk takes I've observed in the manga thread lately, and if I'm gonna be blunt, much less exhausting to engage with by comparison. I'm glad this thread got a decent amount of traction.
I should thank you guys for contributing so far - the topic only has any traction so long as others are willing to get involved and discuss it, else I'm just talking to myself. I had considered it might appeal to users like yourself (who had shown a willingness to talk about the manga in detail, that is), but of course I also hope to see lots of different users come through, in the fullness of time.

I really feel like a long view is the only salutary way of assessing the work now, as otherwise we're just getting the 'Hot-Take Hydra' sprouting a new head every month, no matter how many times one hacks at it.
The Undying wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:10 am
it's nice to see Toyotaro getting his feet wet with the main series material. I have to wonder if these chapters were drawn far in advance before they were published.
batistabus wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:12 pm
Toyotaro obviously got a preview of the animation because these fights pretty much replicate what we get in the final film.
This is definitely a detail I'd be interested in knowing, because at times it seems like basically a shot-for-shot re-creation of the movie, but other times there are some noticeable differences of depiction (as a minor example: though Kuririn's Kienzan buries some Freeza scrubs in both versions, it looks very different in how it turns out between both media). Both Toyotarou and Naho Ooishi saw it before 20 March, so it looks like he only saw the full theatrical cut a month or so before its release, but he'd almost certainly have finished both promo issues #1 and #2 by this point, since #2 was published on 20 March.

I would assume that Toyotarou definitely had access to the script, but given his tendency to favour reference rather than drawing from memory (as he'd probably have to do if he'd viewed even extensive portions of the film beforehand) makes me wonder whether he had access to copies of storyboard documents and other pre-production drawings to give him a detailed idea of framing etc., which he'd then be able to draw according to his own style. Maybe this would account for at least some of the differences?

More than this, I'm curious as to what influenced Toyotarou most in deciding what to omit from the promo, and whether it's some combination of suitable art reference, story compression, and things he just didn't want in the promo - I guess the more developed the materials he may have had access to, the more that would lead me to conclude the latter. Any thoughts?
batistabus wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:12 pm
Toyotaro takes a page and a half for Freeza to kill a grunt in one shot, which is certainly not necessary.
This would be an Easter Egg/reference, wouldn't it? It seems like it's a deliberate artistic reference to DB #304, when Freeza kills Dende. I accept that it's perhaps a misplaced urge here on Toyotarou's part. I'm not sure he makes many other references quite of this sort in the Promo, does he?
batistabus wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:12 pm
Merus assumes the stance Whis takes here, and he utilizes Whis' hand funnel technique as well, so the new arc is somewhat dependent on this promo comic for some of it's more blatant foreshadowing.
That's a cool little note - I hadn't noticed that; thanks for sharing!
The Undying wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:10 am
With the movie's "Saiyan Beyond God" concept advocated for here and some other power-scaling stuff, I think it's clear that this doesn't belong in Super's continuity outside of major story beats, but it's nice to see Toyotaro getting his feet wet with the main series material. I have to wonder if these chapters were drawn far in advance before they were published.
batistabus wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:12 pm
While we never get to see Golden Freeza vs SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, the events later in the DBS manga may imply that events don't unfold exactly the same as they do in the film. Since Golden Freeza's weakness is that his form is unstable, but SSB is also unstable during the U6 arc...does Goku actually use God for the beginning of the fight? Is Golden Freeza just drastically less stable than SSB?
MechaTrunks wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:17 am
I don't think the canon of the manga contradicted the movies in anything else than the SSJGod form of Goku being a transformation and not his base state absorving its powers (which was confusing as hell).
I have to say, if there were to be any more reference to this material in the Super Manga (not necessarily in a complete adaptation or anything, but maybe a flashback like appears in 超 #32), I'd enjoy seeing a little bit of the fight if it helped with some 'tidying up' of the questions around 'Saiyan Beyond God', SSjG, and SSjB - though I'm sure Toyotarou has other priorities in his storytelling, and would be chary of taking such a different approach to the 'definitive' version...

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by MechaTrunks » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:25 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:58 pm
I have to say, if there were to be any more reference to this material in the Super Manga (not necessarily in a complete adaptation or anything, but maybe a flashback like appears in 超 #32), I'd enjoy seeing a little bit of the fight if it helped with some 'tidying up' of the questions around 'Saiyan Beyond God', SSjG, and SSjB - though I'm sure Toyotarou has other priorities in his storytelling, and would be chary of taking such a different approach to the 'definitive' version...
But the Saiyan Beyond God state was already retconned in the BoG saga where Goku never reverts to his base state with his Godly powers activated.
It would have been nice to have at least the first part of the Goku vs Freeza fight redrawn with SSJGod Goku instead, but between the BoG retelling and the fact that in the manga the SSJGod form is seen in every single saga after the Freeza one instead of the Saiyan Beyond God state would've made it redundant.

At that point the DBS chapters were just 15 pages long, to retell the Freeza saga would've made the U6 saga start much before in the anime than in the manga, hindering the manga even more.

It would be great if Toyotarou somehow revisits that skipped saga in the future as an extra but in reality I don't think it's needed.
The only thing you would've to change is Goku turning into SSJGod to fight Final Form Freeza (the z-warriors vs Frieza's soldiers fight wasn't that bad in the promotional manga).

Regards!

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:18 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:58 pm
I would assume that Toyotarou definitely had access to the script, but given his tendency to favour reference rather than drawing from memory (as he'd probably have to do if he'd viewed even extensive portions of the film beforehand) makes me wonder whether he had access to copies of storyboard documents and other pre-production drawings to give him a detailed idea of framing etc., which he'd then be able to draw according to his own style. Maybe this would account for at least some of the differences?

More than this, I'm curious as to what influenced Toyotarou most in deciding what to omit from the promo, and whether it's some combination of suitable art reference, story compression, and things he just didn't want in the promo - I guess the more developed the materials he may have had access to, the more that would lead me to conclude the latter. Any thoughts?
It's definitely possible he saw storyboards rather than the film.

I'm not sure how much decision-making regarding what to include or omit was up to Toyotaro. He wasn't "Toriyama's chosen successor" at this point, and since Shueisha's Dragon Ball Room was created in 2014, I figure the editors made those types of decisions. Trying to decipher what was up to Toyo vs the DB Room, or even Toriyama has been a struggle for me throughout the run of the DBS manga.
This would be an Easter Egg/reference, wouldn't it? It seems like it's a deliberate artistic reference to DB #304, when Freeza kills Dende. I accept that it's perhaps a misplaced urge here on Toyotarou's part. I'm not sure he makes many other references quite of this sort in the Promo, does he?
I'm not sure! But to take up an entire page on killing a grunt in such a short chapter/series feels like a waste...I'm also comparing it to the film, where it feels a lot quicker in comparison.

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