The Super Re-Read

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:00 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:58 pm More than this, I'm curious as to what influenced Toyotarou most in deciding what to omit from the promo, and whether it's some combination of suitable art reference, story compression, and things he just didn't want in the promo - I guess the more developed the materials he may have had access to, the more that would lead me to conclude the latter. Any thoughts?
My guess would be "story compression". The third chapter ends by instructing the audience to watch the movie, which underlines its role as a promotional tool for Toriyama's intent rather than any sort of diverging vision on Toyotaro's part. The omissions and additions, I'd assume, were influenced by that mindset.

For example, Vegeta's line that you mentioned ("What's everyone so worked up about? It's just Freeza.") summarily hammers home a lot of what I feel the film was going for as a casual, relatively low-stakes diversion between Boo's defeat and DB's epilogue, not too dissimilar from the JSAT special. This all changed with Super, of course.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by prince212 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:09 pm

Thank you , it was a good reading of the posts and re-reading of dbs manga first chapters ... I ended up reading more than just 4 ...
I will point some things that catch my eye or even make my laught
Chapter 1 , Beerus at some planet where they offered him “ soup d’saian gahd “
Chapter 2 , sooner introduction of champa , made the story flow good with 3 even 4 different scenarios if we include the kaioshins
Chapter 3 , Bulmas birthday at a luxury cruise , I wonder if that one belong to android 17 right now
Chapter 4 , the ritual to make super saiyan god ... toyble fan manga also has something similar that requires multiple saiyan together, I wonder who came first with that , I know battle of gods movie was 2013 , but I don’t know when was toybles manga ...
In general I think super manga did really good resuming both movies cohesively and going straight to the points, adding information for the nexts arcs coming.
Ah champa eliminating some of freeza army was a nice to introduce freeza resurrection.
Looking forward for the next chapters
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:46 pm

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 5 - 8

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We took a little detour into the incomplete manga offering that corresponds to Revival of F last time, so as promised, let's move things along back in the main run of Dragon Ball Super - we're back with Chapters 5 to 8, which set up the Universe 6 Tournament arc, and which was breaking new ground in Super's storyline when it first came out - it was in this arc that we also started to see some significant divergences between the ways that the manga and the anime told the outline story of Dragon Ball Super.

Anyway, pluck out your volumes, and let's get re-reading! Once again, much credit to Kanzenshuu for its information reference - Japanese Chapter titles and original publishing dates are also taken from the website.

Chapter 5 - Beerus and Champa/Beerus and Champa
21 October 2015
Chapter Notes
  • The misty, 'wooded' setting for Goku and Vegeta's training is a nice little artistic touch, and allows Goku to actually use the environment and his natural speed to his advantage in wrong-footing Vegeta and getting an opening.
  • Whis, surveying the action from a distance, already has his cup of ramen and chopsticks at the ready. He won't get to chow down until he's encumbered his troublesome charges. Of course, more ramen buckets will pop up for Champa and Vados to chow down on.
  • Whis demonstrates that he's able to fix the messes others make without having to resort to controlling and rewinding time, as he fixes the site of Vegeta's SSjB blast. Vados will do the same for the broken fighting stage in 超 #11. As Whis will note in 超 #14, rewinding time by 3 minutes is only something he can do once in a (long) while, as it'll throw off the 'time axis' otherwise - whatever that means - so it's just as well that Angels have more direct means of cleaning up messes. Of course, as we've seen in the Moro arc, there's a clear sense of limits on just how interventive Angels can be - 超 #55 has the Grand Priest mention the Angel laws on neutrality, which yields a direct outcome in the natural erasure of trainee Angel Merus when he uses his full Angelic power to fight Moro in 超 #63.
  • Following up on a comment I made in the Revival of F promo manga - Whis generates the heavy suits for Goku and Vegeta, again with his signature. So I guess he does like to accessorise whenever he makes outfits :lol: I guess it would be similar to when Kaio does it for Goku (and keeps up the 'fashion line' by sending new outfits from heaven).
  • Favourite art: Whis explaining the concept of 12 Universes (including twins) is a cool panel. Champa and Vados introduce the idea of complementary/twin Universes in character form, as being themselves a twin and a (very similar) sibling of Beerus and Whis respectively, just as Whis describes Universes 6 and 7 as being twins.
  • Despite its introduction here, the concept of 'twinning' gets remarkably little mileage in the Tournament of Power arc - while all of the Angels are confirmed to be brothers and sisters (and the interstitial between 超 #29 and #30, the Guide Angel of Universe 10, Kusu, is established as the oldest), there isn't the same sort of obvious visual 'twinning' between any of the Gods of Destruction of other Universes (though, of course, they may not all be the original Gods of Destruction for their respective Universes), or of the Universes themselves, which seem to operate according to radically differing principles despite their twinning (compare the beauty-obsessed Universe 2 with Universe 11, for instance, or Universe 3, stuffed with machines, with the much more 'normal' Universe 10). One feature of the twinning survives in the Mortal Level rankings of the Universes - 1, 12, 5, and 8 (2 sets of twins) are exempt from the tournament, and the others (with the exception of Universes 4 and 9, as Universe 9 is last) are all grouped with their twins in rank. Likewise, there's a certain complementariness to some of the naming puns - Universes 4 and 9's fighters pun on herbs and spices, and Universes 2 and 11's fighters pun on meats and kitchen implements respectively. So far, however, more overt 'twinning' in what we see is quite limited. Of course, Whis will reveal in 超 #14 that there used to be 18 Universes, before Zeno-Sama destroyed them. Presumably, none of them were twins with each other, or with the current Universes, since none of them would add up to 13. Or maybe they were, and the remaining Universes being twins if they add up to 13 is a happenstance?
  • The Revival of F interstitial shows up, with Freeza in his little Hell-cocoon along with Shisama and Sorbet. The Viz translation is very hard to make out, but I understand that the general meaning of the Japanese expression is to say that they've been skipped - only sorta-true, as we saw last time.
Chapter 6 - Preparations for the Tournament/Tournament Preparation
21 November 2015
Chapter Notes
  • The implication of Champa's and Beerus's fighting dialogue is that their ruckus is in Universe 6 (Beerus says Planet Sweetz exists in his Universe too, and Champa says he doesn't care what happens to this Universe any more) - so, Champa does his job (sorta) and destroys 6 planets/planetoids, at least one of which was inhabited.
  • Beerus and Champa are literal twins, so they have the same birthday. It could be speculated that as they illustrate the twinning of their Universes, they may well share a 'birthday' with their Universes and have always been Gods of Destruction - compare with Belmod of Universe 11, who has been God of Destruction for 87,910,715 days as of 超 #28 (presumably not comparable to Earth days, as that would be a mere 240,000 Earth years); Beerus, at least, has certainly been God of Destruction for millions of years, as he (and Belmod, for that matter) were exercising that function before Shin became a Kaioshin.
  • Vados has so far been characterised with economy, but it seems quite clear that she's rather more mischievous than Whis (who is an effete gourmand, but rather more straight-laced on the whole - though he's not always pleasant himself; take his unfeeling reaction to Merus's intervention and erasure in 超 #63; this is generally similar to his position on the prospect of Universe 7 itself being erased in 超 #30 - Marcarita, Universe 11's Guide Angel, is similarly unmoved when Belmod erases someone right in front of her for annoying him in 超 #28). So far she's connived at Champa's risky ventures into Universe 7, slyly fat-shamed Champa for her own amusement, and taunted Whis over their respective powers - in this, she contrives a scenario where Beerus and Champa will fight each other (whether to force them to have just food fights in the future, or merely for the lulz). She'll go on to bribe Hit with a Cube Spaceship in 超 #12, so she's prepared to do various questionable things. I guess Angelic sensibilities, while they generally work out to the benefit of the heroes, aren't entirely benign.
  • The statement that the Namekian Dragon Balls are (or at least were at first) fragments taken from the original Super Dragon Balls is an interesting, if slightly perplexing update. Of course, the Namekians have the natural ability to create and alter Dragon Balls (and their Dragon Gods) at will, as Kami, Dende and Muri have all demonstrated in the past. So, even if their association with the Dragon Balls was initially acquired, it certainly seems as though it is now inherited by the members of the Dragon Clan - presumably it has become hereditary (though this is speculative) thanks to the presence of the Dragon Balls themselves (超 #61 establishes that they have other esoteric effects, such as preserving Namekian corpses intact). Daizenshuu #7 p. 43 states that 86% of Namekians are Dragon Clan members, but there is of course a variation of capability - the Great Elder calls the child of Katatz "the prodigy of the Dragon Clan" in DB #265, and both Muri and Piccolo comment on Dende's talents in DB #393 and 394. While DB #394 also establishes that Dragon Balls can be made entirely from scratch in 100 days (by someone of Dende's calibre, anyway), the implication of Champa's statement here is that anyone else who might scavenge 7 fragments from the Super Dragon Balls might likewise, then, have their own set, albeit with limits. Belmod will indicate that the Super Dragon Balls are a little bit of a myth to other Universes, in 超 #30, since he says he's just had it confirmed that they "are a real thing".
  • Vegeta's suggestion of a paper test to weed out brain-dead monsters is pretty funny, since the enemy most befitting that description from his own experience would be... Majin Buu, Goku's first suggestion for the Universe 7 team. It's also pretty interesting that Piccolo remains in Goku's 'go-to' Top 5 fighters, despite being entirely left behind in power at this point. Goku will think in similar terms when nominating his Human friends for the Tournament of Power in 超 #30.
  • Beerus mentions that he's said Goku's the second-strongest person he's fought; this appeared straight-up in the Battle of Gods movie, but not in the manga so far, so I completely love the interstitial here; it's almost like Goku's so naive that he's just accepted that Beerus did, in fact, say so, with a cute little false memory of the discussion to boot (of course, that's just my own take because it amuses me).
  • And on the humour slate, I also love the little panels where Beerus threatens to destroy Goku if he doesn't take the tournament seriously, and also the little musical note Whis lets out from having an excuse to visit Earth and chow down some more...
  • I guess it was functionally necessary that they should have a new Dragon Radar for searching beyond Earth, but it doesn't do anything in this story, it doesn't help them find any of the Super Dragon Balls, and it never shows up again (save for a tiny panel in 超 #13, where it uselessly confirms that the nameless planet is the final Super Dragon Ball). Well okay then...
  • Tights, Bulma's older sister, was introduced in Jaco the Galactic Patrolman as a travelling 17 year-old aspiring to become a Sci-Fi author - Jaco rescues her from some ruffians in the Eastern Capital. These days, she's still living on old Dr. Omori's island from that story (Omori himself has presumably passed on since then, leaving Tights as the sole occupant). Among objects of note in her house are a copy of 'Space Police Chaco' (mentioned to be a rare flop in Tights's literary oeuvre - Chaco's face on the cover resembles one of the police sketches of Jaco that so irked him on his first visit to Earth); a copy of a picture sent her by Jaco, which shows Jaco and his erstwhile girlfriend (which also appeared in Jaco+1); and what appears to be a personalised calendar featuring a selfie of Jaco, which also displays Beerus watching SSjB Goku and Golden Freeza (fighting?) in the background of the picture - this is a cute reference by Toyotarou to a scene in the movie - Jaco asks Bulma if she thinks Beerus would consent to a photo with him, but then he thinks better of it (apparently he settled for taking a sly snap later). Like Bulma in the Buu arc (and in Trunks's future), Tights seems to be a smoker.
  • Jaco's gone and got himself a new ride after the fight with Freeza - a slightly more swooshy (and presumably more modern) design than his original ship (Now from HQ to Earth in 50 minutes!). Maybe helping fight Freeza and actually protect the Earth earned him an upgrade (or maybe it's just the latest obsolete design...). He'll get another, newer ship from the Galactic King as a bribe to buy his silence about the Tournament, as of 超 #14.
  • Favourite Art: The Planet encircled by the Super Dragon Balls, a Toriyama-inspired correction of the original art, is very cool. The process of redrafting this scene is in the back material for Volume 2, where Toyotarou says (relatably) that getting corrections like this "makes me both happy and a little sad." The stage design, with its obelisks and pyramids (and as we'll see, random glyphs) is also pretty cool.
Chapter 7 - Warriors of Universe 6/Warriors from Universe 6
19 December 2015
Chapter Notes
  • Presumably Jaco's (now ex-)girlfriend is the one in the photo, seen both in Jaco+1 and the last issue.
  • Favourite art: Lord Zuno's planet is a really interesting design, as kind of a 'Japanese Buddhist Monastery in spaaaace', with the floating rocks it's built on and all. Also, I want to use this point to express my love for Zuno, both as a design and a character - this weird ovoid man who knows everything, seems dissatisfied with it all, and chooses to dole it out for kisses, even from people he doesn't want them from, is just *chef's kiss* - if my handle weren't Magnificent Ponta, I'd've been Lord Zuno. Of course, he'll show up again in 超 #18, to answer Zamas's questions (that's potentially plural even before Zamas threatens him, though I understand Japanese has a thing with plurals) - d'you think Zamas is Zuno's type? Shin-jin are technically sexless - Elder Kaioshin's predilections (as shown in DB #479) to the contrary - so maybe they get more wishes than 'men'... There are a couple of other noteworthy pieces of cool art in this issue, though, like Goku and Vegeta's SSjB clash, and the group shot of Universe 6's team at the end.
  • Jaco's idiotic test of Zuno's knowledge is to state Bulma's bust size - Zuno replies 83.4 centimetres, having shrunk from 87.2 centimetres. Of course, Bulma has been free with this information in the past - in DB #5, she states (for Oolong's edification) that it is 85 centimetres. Toriyama also apparently felt the need to tell us that her vital statistics at that general point in the series were 85/58/84. No further comment is required. Moving swiftly on...
  • Zuno gives a huge infodump about the Super Dragon Balls here - they're 37,196.2204 kilometres in diameter - for reference, that's about 3 times the diameter of planet Earth (so Champa calling them "almost the size of a planet" is understating it). It's a funny joke that Zalama patented the star refraction - I guess even Gods bow to the almighty dictates of Intellectual Property Law... As we see later, the 'language of the Gods' is just backwards-Japanese. It's interesting that the Super Dragon Balls only scatter between Universes 6 and 7 specifically. No doubt this has something to do with them being twin Universes, but no real reason is given.
  • If you look closely, you'll see that Mr. Popo's playing tennis with Dende in the Heavenly Sanctuary while Goku and Vegeta train. A cute little gag.
  • Goku's line that Saiyans stay young until around 80 is a development of Vegeta's (chronologically later) statement in DB #518 that Saiyan aging is deferred because they're a warrior race. Toriyama has stated that their lifespan isn't much different to Humans since they age rapidly after a certain point - this is the first time a specific number has been put to it in the Manga, though. Toriyama has drawn Goku as an old man before. It's worth noting that Vegeta in particular is rather older than his date of birth would indicate, as he earns his frequent flyer miles in the Room of Spirit and Time - he spent 2 full years in Dragon Ball, is stated to spend 3 further years with Goku at this point, and he will spend one further year in 超 #21. Unlike Goku, he hasn't spent several years not-ageing in the Afterlife, so he's 6 years older than would ordinarily be reckoned (as of this writing, anyway)...
  • Speaking of which, I know the Room has been restored after Piccolo destroyed the entrance (presumably this was done when Earth was restored by Porunga in DB #513), but when did the time limit for accessing the Room change? It can easily be explained as Dende doing something to the Room, just like he powered up the Dragon Balls, but I don't think any explanation for this has actually been given so far...
  • Of course, I am obliged to mention Toyotarou's deliberate referencing of DB #228 in Goku and Vegeta's fighting stances - this homage to the classic battle has been given in various media to date.
  • "Whis's spaceship" is a Cube spaceship, which 超 #12 will explain can allow its users to traverse the boundaries between Universes. The series will nevertheless show Guide Angels can move freely between Universes without it, and they can bring others with them, so presumably this instance is to move a large number of people between Universes conveniently over larger distances - from Earth to Beerus's world is 35 minutes of travel, but onward to the tournament grounds is 2 hours 10 minutes.
  • There it is. The Magnificent Ponta. The interstitial art with a surprised Goku sinking his fist into Monaka's face is pretty funny, too.
  • The translation of the word game does the best it can for an English audience here, but obviously it makes Beerus look completely cretinous by changing the game into 'last letter-first letter". It allows them to directly translate what Beerus says in the Japanese manga ("House-Sitting"), so that's something, I guess. As Whis will later be established as an Angel, his "home planet" (Heaven) either contains a varied ecosystem, including birds (the "Jil-Jil" of his turn at the game), or Whis is just cheating here.
  • It's funny to see Goku almost blank Shin in favour of the next shiny new Kaioshin, Fuwa, from Universe 6. I can't tell if his design is meant to continue the pattern of 'fat version of x' started by Champa, or if he's supposed to more obviously 'twin' with the original, also fat, Dai Kaioshin of Universe 7.
Chapter 8 - The Match Begins!/The Battle Begins!
21 January 2016
Chapter Notes
  • For an arena so grand, the tournament is pretty poorly attended, particularly by Universe 6 - the gummy-bear-type spectators seen in the background in an early panel are no doubt Botamo's family, but the randoms with the black shirts are a question mark - I guess they're also there for him, though, as they cheer only for Botamo later on - maybe the symbol on their chests sheds some light here? *Shrug*
  • The extra Saiyan info clarifies some things - obviously, Universe 6's Saiyans are rather tamer than those of Universe 7, and less genocide-y. They don't have tails any more, so can't go Oozaru (though Universe 7's Saiyans have been going that way also - by this point chronologically, only Paragus still has one - and Tarble, if his showing up in Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return! counts). But we now know the Saiyan armour style before they served under King Cold and Freeza, and their homeworld was Sadla/Sadala (previously theorised as planet Saiya in the GT Perfect Files) - it opens the way for the (Toriyama-designed) Tsfuru-jin as the original inhabitants of what would later become planet Vegeta, which Toriyama confirmed elsewhere.
  • Schoolmaster Piccolo yelling at Buu for even spelling his own name wrong on a test where he gets all the questions wrong always gives me a chuckle. Goku (and Magetta, according to the interstitial image) scrape through with the requisite 50%. If I'm reading Goku's test papers right, he gets the first question (where he counts on his fingers) correct.
  • The Universe Anthem gives me a bigger chuckle.
  • Goku has obviously under-performed when hungry several times in Dragon Ball (e.g. DB #8, #52, #88, #136, #211), but I think this is the first time that Goku's been impeded in a fight by eating too much... Funny to think that simple things like that still haven't featured in Dragon Ball up till now. It also gives opportunity for a favourite art: Goku zipping around the arena on his digestive jog, as Botamo futilely chases and leaps after him - just an ordinary panel, but full of fun action that seems to capture the tone of the arc well.
  • Kuririn: I can't even see Goku's movements... Tenshinhan: He's most likely attacking very quickly... Gee, thanks Ten - take your rightful title: Master of the Obvious :lol: Is the original Japanese statement less duuuhhh-inducing?
  • Overall, the arc isn't throwing up clear 'grand themes' on its own at present, not least because we've only read less than half the arc, and much of it so far has been devoted to setting up the premise. Of course, in doing so, there's plenty of world-building and character introduction that is valuable here, with lots of great little tidbits - the rivalry between Universes 6 and 7 (and specifically the animus between Beerus and Champa) will appear again, as will all of the Universe 6 fighters for the Tournament of Power arc - this will also expand the involvement of Universes, and sharpen the issue of the character of life in each Universe, and that its quality does matter. Of course, it also introduces the Super Dragon Balls, which play a central role in the next two arcs as well, and it'll reflect on Saiyan power and establish a crucial relationship between Goku and Zeno-Sama. But all that's for later. In tone, this is arc recalls the general levity of the classic tournament arcs, in a story where there's not much at stake, except what our characters have to prove.
Okay, that'll do - I've got to go recover my stamina for next time, where we'll finish off Volume 1 - so it's over to you. What do you think of these issues, the arc, and what came out of your manga re-read? Have at it!

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Bastard. » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:16 pm

I really really like this arc in the manga, it's probably my favorite, only thing lacking is the incredibly hype Blue Kaioken against Hit, but it's so much fun and full of silly gags, the test is indeed a highlight for me, thank you Roshi for trying to teach Goku how to count at least.

Thank you for your effort in writing this recaps, they are fun to read :clap:

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:09 pm

Love this arc, and love the enthusiasm/positivity on display in this thread! Keep up the good work.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:50 pm

As far as re-reads are concerned, I personally prefer to talk about story arcs in their entirety rather than a few chapters at a time, so my next post most likely won't come until the tournament is wrapped up.

Here's one thing I find interesting, though. To my knowledge, this is the only time SSB's proper title, "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan", is ever mentioned in the series outside of merchandise and promotional material. The anime quietly ignores it, despite SSGSS appearing everywhere else (supplementary guides, ads, video games, cards, figures, etc.) to this day.

What makes the manga's approach so much more impressive for me is that it acknowledges the name and actually bothers to explain why the characters colloquially change it to "Super Saiyan Blue" by immediately poking fun at how ridiculous and long winded it sounds via Goku biting his tongue. That's a Toriyama-esque gag through and through, and also the first in a long barrage of subversive jokes from an arc that feels more like early DB than anything else in Super. Good stuff.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:04 pm

Thanks for the kind words so far, y'all. I appreciate it.
batistabus wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:34 pmThe Universe 6 vs 7 tournament may be my favorite arc of Super outside of the films, so I'm looking forward to re-reading the next set of chapters!
The Bastard. wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:16 pm I really really like this arc in the manga, it's probably my favorite, only thing lacking is the incredibly hype Blue Kaioken against Hit, but it's so much fun and full of silly gags, the test is indeed a highlight for me, thank you Roshi for trying to teach Goku how to count at least.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:09 pm Love this arc, and love the enthusiasm/positivity on display in this thread! Keep up the good work.
I'm seeing a lot of love for this arc in particular - I've previously tended to gloss over it a bit in favour of more "consequential" arcs in the past, so I've tended to mentally bracket it with stuff like the classic Dragon Ball tournaments, thinking of it as "diverting, but not compelling". I'm glad I get the opportunity to review and perhaps revise that opinion.

Is there anything in particular that you guys love about this arc that you think deserves highlighting?
The Undying wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:50 pm As far as re-reads are concerned, I personally prefer to talk about story arcs in their entirety rather than a few chapters at a time, so my next post most likely won't come until the tournament is wrapped up.
I enjoy your contributions, but that's fair enough - I have actually just about wrapped up the next post for the re-read, so I could post it this week, I guess. I'm just keeping an eye on how sustainable it'll be when the re-read becomes a volume per post, and also on the progress of the Moro arc, as I'd hope not to start it until the whole story is out there to be reviewed.

So, I could do a less regularly regimented posting for the re-read, if you guys are interested in moving through some of this stuff more cohesively?

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:29 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:04 pm I enjoy your contributions, but that's fair enough - I have actually just about wrapped up the next post for the re-read, so I could post it this week, I guess. I'm just keeping an eye on how sustainable it'll be when the re-read becomes a volume per post, and also on the progress of the Moro arc, as I'd hope not to start it until the whole story is out there to be reviewed.
That's totally fair, and I'd definitely encourage you to operate at your own pace. I'm still checking in on everyone else's contributions as well! :thumbup:

Doing one volume per post is something I'm much more keen on, actually. These early chapters just aren't long enough for me to feel like I can really sink my teeth into the manga from an analysis standpoint, but I'd love to contribute bi-weekly once we get to those longer releases. There's also the cover art and bonus content in the back of the volume that I'd like to dive into, so that's pretty exciting.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:45 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:04 pm Is there anything in particular that you guys love about this arc that you think deserves highlighting?
I just think this arc nails what it's going for. The humor, the energy, the novelty, the characters....everything is on point. I like the more serious arcs of Super just fine, but I have two main issues with them inherently.

1) The stakes can only be so high. We know Goku has to meet Oob. The serious stuff can still be fun, dramatic, intense, or whatever, but I do feel it is severely undercut by the nature of the series taking place between Boo and EoZ.

2) The escalation doesn't match the rest of the series. In the original DB series, the action and "feats" of characters feels much more intense than the previous arc. I don't feel like Super has really done anything to surpass the feeling of the Boo arc on the page; we know that the level of gods is much higher than anything that has come before, but in action, it doesn't really feel like it. Manga or anime. Not that the action is bad (there's plenty of great action in all 3 versions of Super), and I am capable of convincing myself that the god level is above everything that came before, but as a viewer, I don't feel I should have to convince myself of anything. Also, I'll put the fact that characters don't age in Super in this category.

This arc has laughably low stakes. Earth will not even be destroyed if they lose, it will just be transported as-is to another (almost identical) universe. I think that plays to its favor. The premise of the tournament is a petty bet between feuding brothers. Nobody is taking it seriously, which only serves to piss them off more. There's a non-stop chain of bad judgement, misunderstandings, and blatant fuck-ups that - coupled with Toyotaro's great expressions - keep me smiling the whole way. The stakes don't matter, and the escalation doesn't really matter since the strength of U6 warriors lies in their gimmicks rather than powerful ki.

Seeing fighters from a different universe was extremely exciting at the time. By the time the ToP came around, there were so many thrown at us (the vast majority with terrible designs) that I didn't care about a single one that wasn't a God of Destruction.

It also helps that this arc is infinitely better than the anime version. Where that version is riddled with terrible animation and sluggish pacing, this arc is a breeze to read through and looks great. Toyotaro isn't Toriyama, but his enthusiasm and dedication is palpable on the page.

Also, Goku and Vegeta wear their RoF outfits...

I'll get to this soon!

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:09 pm

Agreed with most of with batistabus said. I like the fact that it's fun, low-stakes and compact. The fact that people hate on it for having low stakes baffles me when most of the tournaments in original Dragon Ball had no stakes at all beyond winning or losing. It's like people have forgotten that Dragon Ball isn't always about monsters destroying planets. This arc illustrates that there don't have to be world-ending stakes to make a compelling story. I love a good tournament arc any day of the week and this one is structured uniquely because of the team-based, winner-stays-on setup. The arc throws around a tonne of cool, silly ideas but still takes itself seriously enough for the individual fights to feel suspenseful.

Cabba, Frost. Hit, Champa and Vados are all good characters. As I said in another thread, the iconic Chekhov's Gunman that is ya boi Monaka is handled perfectly. While Botamo and Magetta are pure gimmick fighters, even they are both fairly memorable and in a way represent how differently Champa and Vados interact with their own universe compared to Beerus and Whis. Whereas Beerus could call on Goku to recruit some fighters that he knew personally, Vados simply scouted for a bunch of unrelated strong brutes that she could find. It implies that a god like Beerus being so chummy with a bunch of mortals is highly unusual. Of course, the Universe Survival arc would eventually introduce Helles and Belmod, both of whom are friendly with their respective universe's mortal superhero teams.

I liked it in the anime as well, even though the animation was still iffy at this point. Although I sometimes prefer to ignore that the higher Super Saiyan Blue forms exist, SSB Kaioken is a slick moment that even Toyotaro couldn't resist from including in the manga eventually.

My only problem is... Piccolo. He really has no purpose being in this arc at all. He doesn't get any cool interactions with Beerus and Whis or any of the Universe 6 fighters outside of Frost, and even then their fight is pretty impersonal. Sure, it's cool to see him get recruited but in hindsight, I would have preferred it if they introduced a totally new character to fill his role. Possibly another mortal that Beerus fought, except unlike Monaka is genuinely strong. When Frost beats him, it's even more shocking. But whatever, Piccolo's always a safe choice.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Bastard. » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:51 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:09 pm Agreed with most of with batistabus said. I like the fact that it's fun, low-stakes and compact. The fact that people hate on it for having low stakes baffles me when most of the tournaments in original Dragon Ball had no stakes at all beyond winning or losing. It's like people have forgotten that Dragon Ball isn't always about monsters destroying planets. This arc illustrates that there don't have to be world-ending stakes to make a compelling story. I love a good tournament arc any day of the week and this one is structured uniquely because of the team-based, winner-stays-on setup. The arc throws around a tonne of cool, silly ideas but still takes itself seriously enough for the individual fights to feel suspenseful.

Cabba, Frost. Hit, Champa and Vados are all good characters. As I said in another thread, the iconic Chekhov's Gunman that is ya boi Monaka is handled perfectly. While Botamo and Magetta are pure gimmick fighters, even they are both fairly memorable and in a way represent how differently Champa and Vados interact with their own universe compared to Beerus and Whis. Whereas Beerus could call on Goku to recruit some fighters that he knew personally, Vados simply scouted for a bunch of unrelated strong brutes that she could find. It implies that a god like Beerus being so chummy with a bunch of mortals is highly unusual. Of course, the Universe Survival arc would eventually introduce Helles and Belmod, both of whom are friendly with their respective universe's mortal superhero teams.

I liked it in the anime as well, even though the animation was still iffy at this point. Although I sometimes prefer to ignore that the higher Super Saiyan Blue forms exist, SSB Kaioken is a slick moment that even Toyotaro couldn't resist from including in the manga eventually.

My only problem is... Piccolo. He really has no purpose being in this arc at all. He doesn't get any cool interactions with Beerus and Whis or any of the Universe 6 fighters outside of Frost, and even then their fight is pretty impersonal. Sure, it's cool to see him get recruited but in hindsight, I would have preferred it if they introduced a totally new character to fill his role. Possibly another mortal that Beerus fought, except unlike Monaka is genuinely strong. When Frost beats him, it's even more shocking. But whatever, Piccolo's always a safe choice.
Piccolo yelling at Buu and Goku makes the arc a thousand times better, also it's Goku last rival in a Budokai, it's fitting for him to be there(even more with Gohan absence), but I agree that his fights while cool we're not that memorable

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:34 pm

I have to say, I do prefer Super with <20 pages compared to ~45 pages. I think Toyotaro definitely has the skill as a mangaka to put out a longer, monthly manga, and I like that we get more content nowadays, but I think the shorter chapters better serve the flow of Dragon Ball.

I will also say that this manga stands completely on it's own by this point. There's nothing you need from the anime to understand the full story, aside from two critical moments that Toyotaro includes as interstitials (credit to Cipher for coining this term to describe the in-between-chapter-bonuses). These moments are Goku shaking the Galactic King's penis (which is later referenced in the GPP arc), and Beerus mentioning that he fought someone stronger than Goku before.

I've read each of these chapters at least a dozen times before now. I'm happy to give them another visit. I've decided to "spoiler" my thought to avoid posting a giant wall-of-text.

Chapter 5:
Chapter 6:
Chapter 7:
Chapter 8:

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Cipher » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:47 am

Enjoyed reading through this thread, having recently been doing my own, running reread of Super on Twitter via the colored volumes (so it's also served as commentary on them). Almost anything I have to say has already been mentioned, and eloquently, by other posters.

Quick, quick thoughts on the material covered so far:

BoG arc:
I second the sentiment that, if a retelling had to exist, repurposing it as a truncated setup for the new content was ultimately the best choice. That said, the "arc" is surprisingly coherent on its own up to the fourth chapter, where the cuts and truncation become unavoidably apparent. What it loses in terms of thematic coherence from the film, it makes up for in energy, as Toyotarō is still showing off quite a bit at this point. There's lively action both on Kaiō's and in the battles against Beerus on Earth. Ultimately it's no replacement for the film, but it does serve as an enjoyable enough, and perhaps more importantly short enough, tonal prelude to the rest of the manga so that it doesn't warrant wholesale skipping over like the anime's two retellings do.

Universe 6 arc:
This is probably my favorite arc in the Super manga. The balance of fun action--Toyotarō is still in an early, show-offy mode, and it maintains a bit of the intangible energy I think keeps Victory Mission enjoyable; the series will stumble a bit visually once its page-count nearly doubles, then settle back into a comfort zone with different set of visual tropes--and low-stakes, though not no-stakes, comedy of errors is both unique in the larger canon of DB, save for maybe the front half of the Red Ribbon Army arc, and a welcome introduction to the new content and lore of Super. Toriyama's hand also feels heaviest in this arc, to its benefit, guiding it through memorable gag scenes like the events at Zuno's and the Universal Anthem. Toyotarō's own comedy also acquits itself well at multiple points, such as in the early scuffle between Goku and Vegeta (borrowed beat from AF and all; might as well borrow the good ones), the naming of Super Saiyan "Blue," Boo's test results, the ending of Goku vs. Botamo, and more.
Bubastis wrote:I just think this arc nails what it's going for. The humor, the energy, the novelty, the characters....everything is on point.
Cosigned. Along with the rest of that post.

I think the arc succeeds at what it goes for perhaps more wholly than any other part of Super, bringing everything together for an enjoyable, goofy follow-up to Battle of Gods and Resurrection "F,", while also having enough of its own heart to feel complete as an episodic adventure via interactions with Cabba and Hit, and through Beerus and Champa's relationship. I think the action presentation is probably at a high here in the manga, due to early-series enthusiasm and not yet having hit the page-count increase. Each fight gets a chuckle out of me somewhere--not only for comedy, but in terms of having an unexpected or striking beat. Not that there isn't enjoyable fighting in subsequent arcs, so don't worry that it's all down hill from this point. I simply feel it tends to be more uneven later on.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:It's also pretty interesting that Piccolo remains in Goku's 'go-to' Top 5 fighters, despite being entirely left behind in power at this point. Goku will think in similar terms when nominating his Human friends for the Tournament of Power in 超 #30.
For what it's worth, that's where Piccolo falls strength-wise, if you want to assume that's one of Goku's criteria. After Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Boo, Piccolo is the next strongest fighter on Earth, with the gang not yet being aware of #17's power.

I like that the format of this thread leaves room for a favorite piece of artwork from each chapter, by the way. I think that's an important aspect of comic discussion that too often gets left out, and it means there will always be some positive mention of craft, which even the weakest comics (not that I consider Super one of them) deserve.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:57 pm

Just 'dropping by'; I should have the next proper contribution up in a day or two...
batistabus wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:34 pm I have to say, I do prefer Super with <20 pages compared to ~45 pages. I think Toyotaro definitely has the skill as a mangaka to put out a longer, monthly manga, and I like that we get more content nowadays, but I think the shorter chapters better serve the flow of Dragon Ball.
I agree with this - like I said earlier, I think some of the slackness and bloat we're seeing in the Moro arc right now is due to the fact that the format, at 45 pages, has only about 1/3rd the number of good opportunities for suspense hooks and important story beats that the original run did; I feel like if there were a way of changing up the format so that Toyotarou could maybe publish 2 shorter chapters a month, that might drive him towards tighter plotting per chapter.
batistabus wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:34 pmGoku vs Vegeta has good flow and borrows the log decoy from Toyble's AF.
Cipher wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:47 amToyotarō is still in an early, show-offy mode, and it maintains a bit of the intangible energy I think keeps Victory Mission enjoyable [...] Toyotarō's own comedy also acquits itself well at multiple points, such as in the early scuffle between Goku and Vegeta (borrowed beat from AF and all; might as well borrow the good ones)
I never read any of Toyotarou's older stuff, whether AF as Toyble or Victory Mission. Is any of it much good, or worth checking out from anything other than an analytical standpoint (making appropriate allowances, of course)?
batistabus wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:34 pm"You sure about this? Maybe it'll end with me." Awesome cocky Goku moment that might've been true if Frost didn't cheat.
I love me some cocky Goku (particularly in the fight with Frost, the look he gives him is joyous); thinking a little more about this particular exchange, though, I like to think that it's Goku's second bite of the cherry at being kewl - in DB #509, he told Vegeta that he might not get a turn with Kid Buu, only to find that Vegeta wasn't listening, so he's pleased to have a captive audience for the killer line this time.
Cipher wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:47 amEnjoyed reading through this thread, having recently been doing my own, running reread of Super on Twitter via the colored volumes (so it's also served as commentary on them).
Glad to have you on board! TheSaiyanGod did mention your twitter thread earlier in the topic, so I tried my best to avoid it for fear of nabbing any of your insights - however, the day before yesterday, I found myself in it by accident while looking for colour images of the manga, and I devoured everything from the Battle of Gods arc through to the Future Trunks arc, before I managed to reassert self-control. :lol:

It's a really good read, I'd definitely recommend it to others (whatever my recommendation is worth).
Cipher wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:47 amFor what it's worth, that's where Piccolo falls strength-wise, if you want to assume that's one of Goku's criteria. After Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Boo, Piccolo is the next strongest fighter on Earth, with the gang not yet being aware of #17's power.
That's a fair point - I'd kind of elided Piccolo's position in the Buu arc as generally 'between Base and SSj Saiyans' with his position in this arc as generally 'between Base and SSj Saiyans', without considering the power increase that would likely entail as a result. Perhaps the fact that he doesn't make as much of an impression as he potentially could've, like LoganForkHands73 mentioned, is one of the reasons for me thinking that way, too...
Cipher wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:47 amI like that the format of this thread leaves room for a favorite piece of artwork from each chapter, by the way. I think that's an important aspect of comic discussion that too often gets left out, and it means there will always be some positive mention of craft, which even the weakest comics (not that I consider Super one of them) deserve.
I don't pretend to be a connoisseur when it comes to stuff like this, and I'll obviously have different favourites of varying levels of validity, but given the amount of flak Toyotarou gets for essentially just what seems to be 'not being Toriyama', I thought it was an important dimension to consider. I mean, if I see an obvious goof, I won't ignore it for the sake of being 'positive' or whatever, but my feeling is that Toyotarou is a generally pretty competent artist, with his general output ranging somewhere between 'perfectly serviceable' and 'pretty strong' (with a relatively small deviation outside this spectrum, for both the below-par and the outstandingly good), depending on the particular piece being considered.

At the moment, the 'conversation', such as it is, seems to be stuck at one 'side' saying 'he should be better, stop making excuses for him' and the other 'side' saying 'stop exaggerating, he's not as bad as you say he is', which I think is a pretty unedifying place for the exchange to be at.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Cipher » Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:21 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:57 pmI never read any of Toyotarou's older stuff, whether AF as Toyble or Victory Mission. Is any of it much good, or worth checking out from anything other than an analytical standpoint (making appropriate allowances, of course)?
It's never been fully scanlated, but I am quite fond of Victory Mission. In some ways I think the craft and energy there are more consistent than in Super. A rare promotional comic that manages to be better than it has any right to be/hide the fact that it's primarily meant to sell a product because of the author's enthusiasm for the work. The fact that there's an entire chapter that doesn't feature the game/cards at all says a lot about how both Toytarо̄ and editorial must have viewed the series. Like Super, it also picks up in page count as it goes. I wish it had been able to properly conclude.

AF I have less positive to say about and can't go out of my way to recommend. However, if you're interested in reading it for the novelty of seeing early Toyotarо̄, it does show off some of the positive elements that are carried into his later projects--primarily the inclusion of comedy beats that feel at home in DB and some of the character writing. It's ... also probably better than it has any right to be based on the material it sets out to adapt, but can only do so much. The improvements made during Victory Mission are remarkable. (And Victory Mission turns out to be another "AF" in that it's a stealth sequel to GT as well.)
I love me some cocky Goku (particularly in the fight with Frost, the look he gives him is joyous); thinking a little more about this particular exchange, though, I like to think that it's Goku's second bite of the cherry at being kewl - in DB #509, he told Vegeta that he might not get a turn with Kid Buu, only to find that Vegeta wasn't listening, so he's pleased to have a captive audience for the killer line this time.
Goku should probably apologize to Kuririn for both instances, since they mirror Kuririn's line as he steps in to fight the first of Uranai Baba's five fighters at the end of the Red Ribbon Army arc. (The Uranai Baba fights also sharing a format with the U6 tournament, of course.)
Glad to have you on board! TheSaiyanGod did mention your twitter thread earlier in the topic, so I tried my best to avoid it for fear of nabbing any of your insights - however, the day before yesterday, I found myself in it by accident while looking for colour images of the manga, and I devoured everything from the Battle of Gods arc through to the Future Trunks arc, before I managed to reassert self-control. :lol:
Ah, thanks! They're certainly a lot more free-form in this thread, structured as basically a running commentary--even though later ones tend to be written after the fact using whatever I took screenshots of as reminders/notes--but glad to know people enjoy them!
That's a fair point - I'd kind of elided Piccolo's position in the Buu arc as generally 'between Base and SSj Saiyans' with his position in this arc as generally 'between Base and SSj Saiyans', without considering the power increase that would likely entail as a result. Perhaps the fact that he doesn't make as much of an impression as he potentially could've, like LoganForkHands73 mentioned, is one of the reasons for me thinking that way, too...
I meant even assuming nothing's changed from the last time Piccolo got a major power-up in the Cell arc. He was/is stronger than the Androids (as far as anyone knows at this point), and the next fighters up on the ladder are Boo and Gohan. It's a ridiculously huge gap, but he's still in a solid fifth place, and the natural choice if Gohan is out even from a purely pragmatic viewpoint.
I don't pretend to be a connoisseur when it comes to stuff like this, and I'll obviously have different favourites of varying levels of validity, but given the amount of flak Toyotarou gets for essentially just what seems to be 'not being Toriyama', I thought it was an important dimension to consider. I mean, if I see an obvious goof, I won't ignore it for the sake of being 'positive' or whatever, but my feeling is that Toyotarou is a generally pretty competent artist, with his general output ranging somewhere between 'perfectly serviceable' and 'pretty strong' (with a relatively small deviation outside this spectrum, for both the below-par and the outstandingly good), depending on the particular piece being considered.

At the moment, the 'conversation', such as it is, seems to be stuck at one 'side' saying 'he should be better, stop making excuses for him' and the other 'side' saying 'stop exaggerating, he's not as bad as you say he is', which I think is a pretty unedifying place for the exchange to be at.
This is basically where I land as well. I try to not directly compare his craft to Toriyama's, because that's a losing game for just about any artist. I also don't mind Super reflecting that it has a different author with his own proclivities and ups and downs--though one who, and this is why I tend to enjoy Toyotarо̄--produces work that usually feels of a piece with what I like about the tone of the original DB. There are certainly craft issues unique to his work that I think are worth bringing up if looking to critique the series, but those specific discussions tend to get lost in hyperbole. He is neither a superlative nor a terrible manga artist, and it's difficult to make either claim expending your view outside of either Super specifically or DB writ large. He gets the job done for an imitative sequel series, I think, with his own quirks which can be their own discussion.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:19 pm

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 9 - 12

Image

We're bouncing back into the Super Re-Read a bit early, like I'd been promising - hope we can keep the topic rolling while we're still in the thick of the arc!

So, this instalment moves on to Chapters 9-12 - by this point, we finally move from Volume 1 to Volume 2 of Dragon Ball Super, which includes the introduction of the mysterious assassin Hit and the approaching climax of the Universe 6 Tournament arc! I hope (and have little doubt) that it's an enjoyable set of chapters for you guys too - it surely was for me! I just hope I've done them justice...

As usual, Super-sized credit to Kanzenshuu (and also the various Herms info threads!) for a lot of the information in these threads, particularly the Japanese titles, the publication dates, and material from the interview archive.

Chapter 9 - Goku vs. Botamo/Goku vs. Botamo
20 February 2016
Chapter Notes
  • Late Addition: Cipher's comment about Kuririn saying he might win all the rounds against Uranai Baba's team (read the earlier posts, it'll all make sense) just made me think (super-belatedly) that in a strictly formal sense, this arc bears the closest resemblance to that particular match-up, rather than to any of the Tenka'ichi Budokai arcs; its tone is very similar as well (though that's no great insight, to be sure - all the tournaments are pretty similar in that regard, before Piccolo appears), and the resolution to it is kind of similar in a way, too. I guess that the biggest structural difference would be Goku going last in the Baba match-ups and winning overall, whereas he goes first here, loses, has the loss retracted and comes back again. Anyway, on with the actual content...
  • The fight with Botamo bears some obvious similarities with Goku's fight against Buyon at Muscle Tower in DB #64-65, insofar as the opponent takes no physical damage and Goku has to do something a little different to pull out the win. Botamo is rather more passive than Buyon was, though (and less bulky), allowing himself to be batted around, rather than repelling attacks, and not really able to take the fight to Goku. It's not surprising that the question quickly becomes one of Goku's own stamina.
  • Of course, despite this Chapter being called "Goku vs. Botamo", the gummy bear spends less time in the Chapter than Frost does.
  • I feel like I should acknowledge the rare sight of a participating Yamcha in the wild... (I mean, verbally; not in any substantive way, obviously)
  • The resolution of the fight is ultimately a classic Dragon Ball subversion of an escalating situation - Goku can't damage Botamo, and Vegeta says even SSj won't be able to do anything; Piccolo worries that Goku will tire out if the fight keeps up, and they agree that the only way is to burn his stamina on an all-out attack that might take out his opponent; and after a dramatic pause...Goku pushes Botamo over and flips him out of the ring. An easy win in the end, much to the chagrin of his colleagues.
  • Speaking of which, the page in which we get said flip is probably my nomination for favourite art in this particular issue - a strong sense of movement in both phases, interspersed with some nice close-ups.
  • Frost's appearance is a nice twist on Freeza's characteristics. While Freeza has (as Piccolo has already mentioned) a "ferocious" feeling which is masked by an overwrought and superficial formality and politeness that comes out in his manner of speech. Frost, by contrast, appears pleasant and cheerful, while in the next issue he will be shown to be a "sneaky jerk" due to cheating by using his stunning needle weapon, so not quite the same as Freeza - pettier and more underhanded, in various ways. In 超 #33, he'll tell Freeza that he prefers to rule with an iron fist as well, so he's neither an opposite nor a simple copy. I like the subtlety in the variation. His design in general underscores this relationship intuitively - similar, but different (though the armour-style grooves in his shoulders are a tad weird, and his legs are too damn shiny - the panels where some sort of tone is used are preferable to the ink-pen shading, for me).
  • We get a nice little look at Whis's Ultra Instinct capabilities, albeit in a small way - the debris from Frost's striking the fighting stage comes very close before being tapped away in an instant by Whis, protecting himself and Beerus. Technically, given that Goku strikes a force field when rung out in the next issue before getting as far as Whis and Beerus, it should've done the same for the debris here - maybe it's a smart forcefield that doesn't do anything when it knows you're gonna do something cool.
  • It's interesting that Frost's ability to transform is, like Freeza's, basically a secret (or else is simply not widely known or used, which is practically the same). Between this Chapter and Kuririn's imagination in the interstitial image following this Chapter, we get to see designs for 4 Frost forms, each precisely corresponding to the general type of form represented by Freeza's transformations, and including various panels that directly seem to reference panels from the Freeza arc, even if they are not quite identical recreations (such as Frost's third form, the revelation of which directly references a panel in DB #302).
  • Given that Hit is the one who stands out to Goku (and information from later Chapters), It's curious that Vados calls Frost "the strongest warrior in our Universe". Obviously Hit is taken out of account here, and this power relationship is underscored in 超 #11, when his compatriots (aside from Hit, who is literally asleep) are astonished to see him lose - likewise, Toriyama calls Frost 'the emperor of Universe 6', which would fit with Vados's description. Of course, Vegeta will toss a new dynamic into Universe 6 by provoking Cabbe into a Super Saiyan - one might suppose that if Cabbe has the same power as Base Vegeta, his SSj form would likewise be more-or-less equal to the SSj Vegeta that beasts Frost. By the time the Tournament of Power arc comes around, Frost's power will be below that of Hit, Kale, Caulifla, and Cabbe at least, and Beerus will openly mock Champa for resorting to him again in 超 #33.
Chapter 10 - Frost's True Colors/Frost's True Form
19 March 2016
Chapter Notes
  • Frost powers up at this stage, but although he doesn't bulk up like Freeza (and similarly doesn't when he fights at "full strength" in 超 #34), we might infer that this is Frost at 100%, and perhaps also that Frost has greater facility with his full power than Freeza did on Namek.
  • During Frost's little stint flinging ki blasts at Goku, he seems to drift first away from Goku - he's reasonably close when he flings the first, and clearly further from Goku when he charges the second (in fact, he seems to be up against the dome itself) - but then he drifts back towards Goku as he becomes more intent on hitting him with something, until at last he finds himself within Goku's reach. It's an interesting exchange, as it both makes a certain amount of sense (if Frost gets closer, Goku has less time to react) and depicts Frost's mounting impatience and frustration pretty well.
  • Favourite art: Ahhhh, cocky Goku. How I love thee. It always gives me a frisson of perverse pleasure to see Goku looking cocky because it's so immediately surprising. By now, I should know that it's a part of Goku's character, but I guess his overriding easy-going, happy-go-lucky nature always makes it a little bit surprising to see him act differently in this way. Love it.
  • As the last issue has already made clear, Frost's appearance here is replete with visual references to Freeza, both in his general appearance and in various poses and moves seen throughout the fight. For example, we get a reference to 70% Freeza's Kiai against SSj Goku in DB #320 (to dramatically less effect here, as Goku isn't taken off-guard this time), and again 2 pages later, we get a reference to Freeza's 50% power-up in DB #312.
  • Close inspection reveals that Frost's right arm is trembling slightly while his back is turned, in the panel where Goku says "I hate to say it, but it's over". It'll become clear during and after the fight with Piccolo that he's fiddling with the arm to unsheathe his poisoned needle weapon, but here it's really easy to miss. I think the interstitial (with Frost priming his needle weapon with poison) is pretty cute, too.
  • There's an unfortunate slip by the Viz editors, as they left part of the 'O' in 'POW' un-erased upon Frost's head, when he lands his stunning blow on Goku's arm.
  • We've seen it already, but I think it's cool that the obelisks generate a shield of some sort around the fighting stage - despite the earlier nitpick.
  • While Piccolo's exchange with Goku resembles that of his chances against Cell from DB #392, here he overturns expectations of, well, just about everyone by fighting smart - he dodges Frost's initial flurry, keeps his distance, and surprises Frost with his stretchy limbs - the first time we've seen them in the manga since DB #183, I think. While he's still worse off than Frost, it's interesting how far he pushes him. It's uncommon for a fighter to pull out this kind of showing against someone apparently much stronger than them, and it's interesting to see in this brief exchange.
  • Piccolo manages to squeeze in another callback to classic DB, with the claim that he's the reincarnation of the Demon King - a specific reference to DB #186, though a little bit of a tenuous connection here, responding as it does to Vados's wondering if he's more than just a Namekian. Of course, Champa recognising Piccolo's species is a strong indicator that Namekians also exist in Universe 6 - this will be confirmed when Pirina and Saonel show up as a couple of Universe 6's own Namekians in 超 #33.
  • I guess the principal point of the fight is just for plot progression overall - while Goku's loss is perplexing, and Jaco thinks he's noticed something a little 'off', it's Frost being pushed to use his cheating move that crucial second time that gets him caught out; Piccolo's 'purpose', plot-wise, is served once he's managed to force this kind of loss.
  • This is the first explicit showing of Jaco's sharp eyes. He's already been shown to be a capable and precise shot in both Jaco the Galactic Patrolman and the Revival of F promo manga, and he sees the Twinkle 8 rocket failing from a longer distance than the Humans with him can see in Jaco #9, but I think this is the first time his vision is explicitly referenced as being particularly sharp. In fact, 超 #58 shows his sight is so sharp, he can follow Goku using Ultra Instinct Sign, when Piccolo and Gohan can't - as Jaco himself puts it, "It's my one strong suit". In fairness to Jaco, although he is regarded as a hopeless incompetent by his peers, between his natural ability and the augmentations of the Galactic Patrol, by ordinary Human standards he's a wonder: he's super-strong, super-fast, can leap a whole island in a single bound, can catch bullets, can fly with his emergency booster rockets, knows all the languages of the Universe, and his ear receivers can hear an ant burp at 300 metres.
Chapter 11 - Vegeta Takes the Stage!!/Vegeta's Turn!!
21 April 2016
Chapter Notes
  • Can I just say, at the top of all this, I don't have a favourite art for this issue because I love all of it? SSj Vegeta looks vicious and cool (and moves that way to match), I love Autto Magetta's design overall, and I love Vegeta's comedy faces at various points in the fight. It's all just such a treat. Go on, fight me about it.
  • I guess I should also address the issue of Toyotarou using reference ("tracing", as claimed by the uncharitable). I guess the first direct example of a panel looking like another panel from Dragon Ball, where it isn't a direct callback to something obviously relevant (which I recognise, anyway) is Frost's reaction to Vegeta kneeing him in the gut - it's very similar to Goku's reaction to being kneed in the gut by Raditz in DB #197. There will be some more like this, and Toyotarou will also re-use a number of poses in later issues (particularly the much-lampooned 'profile flurry' panel that shows up from time to time). While criticism is fair up to a point, it's important to bear in mind that there are only so many poses the body can reasonably make in certain situations, and there are only so many poses and angles that can depict this dynamically - sometimes Toriyama's just got to the best way of showing it first. Besides, I think Toyotarou's been pretty open about his use of reference from the original series, saying he constantly has the manga with him, which fact even shows up on his own personal self-depiction. He's even mentioned that drawing Beerus and Whis is hard for him, because there isn't much reference material (in fairness, most of it probably comes from his drawings now), and he's said that he'd use the Broly film as reference and adapt it in his own way one day. It's clear that he likes to adopt and adapt where he can, to make it feel like Dragon Ball, and I don't think things like this are egregious, and I don't think this should overshadow the overarching point - like he says, "I don’t want readers to say it doesn’t feel like Dragon Ball…". I think that's okay, myself.
  • Piccolo's tame withdrawal is a little bit of a head-scratcher; I figure some of it is just the fact that his purpose is served by helping expose Frost's cheating so that Goku can be re-admitted. Thinking 'in-Universe' for reasons to withdraw, I guess he can salvage some of his pride by "officially" being the winner thanks to Frost cheating, rather than having to go up against him again, getting decked for real and taking a loss...
  • For all the tension that everyone else is feeling, Hit is literally asleep. Well, as he mentions in the next issue, he's 1000 years old, so I guess he needs to nap more regularly.
  • So, according to the Universe 6 Kaioshin, Magetta from Universe 6 has Universe 7 counterparts; we'll see such a metal-man counterpart in 超 #56-57 - Bikkura Quoitur. He seems to have the same strengths as Magetta, and the same weaknesses, but I find Magetta's design to be much superior, particularly in his legs - the whole seems more balanced and less top-heavy. It also helps that he reminds me of a buff version of the robots from the 'Smash' advert that ran in the '70s (look it up).
  • This encounter touches off another running gag - "Shin needs to study more". To be honest, it's a bit of a carry-over from the original series, as Shin didn't know the true power of the mortals in his Universe, and he likewise knew nothing of the Potara. This continues here, where he doesn't know much about metal-men, and will show up again in 超 #23, when Shin doesn't know that a Potara fusion involving non-Kaioshin will dissolve after an hour (in the interstitial, he blames Dai Kaioshin for this), and again in 超 #30, where he still doesn't know how strong other mortals are.
  • Vegeta, even as a Super Saiyan, can't lift Magetta. Beerus says a metal-man weighs at least 1000 tons. The last time we had any concrete measure of our heroes' lifting capabilities was in DB #428, where Goku was training with 2 tons on each limb in his base form (a total of 8 tons), but could not move with 10 tons on each limb (40 tons in total) - though according to the Super Exciting Guide (Story Volume) floating in mid-air makes weight training much more difficult. As a Super Saiyan, he found 40 tons easy. In 超 #38, Legendary Saiyan Kale proves capable of lifting, holding aloft, and throwing Magetta.
  • I find the scenes of Magetta running from a maniacally laughing Vegeta as he destroys the platform very funny, for some reason.
  • Magetta uses his lava-spit to counter Vegeta's ki blasts; it's raises the question of whether it would actually be there if he hadn't drunk that canister before the battle started, but whatever. I think it might be the first use of 'spitting' weapons (in a tournament context; I'm not counting Dabura's spit from, e.g., DB #455 or Buu spitting ki blasts in DB #466) since the 21st Budokai, when Bacterian uses actual spit against Kuririn (DB #36), Jackie Chun does likewise (DB #42), and Giran uses his Guruguru gum against Goku (DB #39-40); Giran has to explain his own body makes the gum rather than it being an item, just like the announcer clarifies for Magetta's spit.
  • I love the resolution of this fight - it's deliciously absurd, and very much in keeping with Toriyama's intention to do an arc that is 'relatively simple and cheerful'.
  • Magetta sobbing in the background, being comforted by Botamo, is apparently recreated in the interstitial in closer detail; it's cute to be able to think of these little gags as having actually happened in the main story (and some of them definitely have, like Goku accidentally molesting the Galactic King, which is directly referenced in 超 #43). I also like to think of the 'Toyotarou Drew It!' illustrations this way, when it seems applicable (Like Dodoria killing off Bardock's isolated old team members).
Chapter 12 - A Saiyan’s Pride/Saiyan’s Pride
21 May 2016
Chapter Notes
  • Cabbe's assault is pretty cool - it's interesting to see someone deliberately try to misdirect and wrong-foot their opponent in such a number of rapid-fire ways. It definitely lends credence to the idea that Cabbe is experienced despite his youth. Between these characteristics and his instinctive politeness, one is tempted to think of him as akin to a version of Gohan that never stopped training. He also seems to remind me a little of this visually (particularly from when we last saw Gohan chronologically, in Revival of F), as he looks relatively scrawny for his power.
  • A small artistic error, as a falling Vegeta's combat suit hasn't had the black filled in around the neck area. This happens semi-regularly in Dragon Ball more generally; it's very easy to miss, I'm sure.
  • I really like this whole bit with Vegeta posing as evil to provoke Cabbe's rage, purely from a continuity perspective - I always thought it a little odd that it should come naturally to Goku to figure out that he needed to threaten and insult Uub to get to his hidden powers in DB #519 (perhaps that's because my mental image of Goku is insufficiently nuanced - see my comment earlier about cocky Goku), so I love the idea that it occurs to him because it's something he saw Vegeta do successfully once (albeit Goku's execution is much more childish, as one would expect).
  • But I also like it from a character angle from Vegeta's perspective - from a certain amount of nostalgia for the Saiyans, he instinctively engages a Saiyan by acting like a Saiyan (and this is also indicated by Piccolo making the distinction of relationship between Vegeta and Goku on the one hand, and Vegeta and other Saiyans on the other). Despite the overly brutal 'evil' pose, it also allows us to look at the character moment as to some extent a genuine one - such as his immediate anger at hearing Cabbe ask humbly for something, or pathetically submit to him. Historically, Vegeta hasn't been the least bit sentimental about Saiyans in particular (by Human reckoning, at least - he's as likely to kill them as anything), so it's fitting that his "nostalgia" is expressed in threats, insults, and a beatdown - albeit one with a more beneficial goal in mind, which is of course the symbol of his personal growth. Its also interesting that Vegeta still assumes his own position as the default - the comment "There's no place in this Universe for a prideless Saiyan!" is revealing in this regard - we're in "neutral space" (maybe the space between Universes, if that's a thing?), so I'd suggest Cabbe's kind of Saiyan gets to define the 'norm' here by overwhelming majority rules, rather than the outsider Vegeta, who is no doubt representative of an extreme minority in that context - but he's a Prince; he's used to the idea of saying what goes, I guess.
  • Videl covering baby Pan's eyes is pretty funny - think of the children, Vegeta! :lol:
  • Vegeta's 'killing' blast is a small but direct visual reference to when he kills Nappa, which also parallels his statements - just like here, there's no place for a prideless Saiyan, so there (DB #227), there was no use for a Saiyan who can't fight.
  • Cabbe's transformation perhaps seems a little abrupt when compared to the build-up that, say, Goku went through. But given that Cabbe is about as strong as Vegeta, and he also seems to be very much gentler than the Universe 7 Saiyans, he probably has a lot of S-Cells, which are a biological prerequisite (and why Goten and Trunks could also transform very easily as children) - he was probably just awaiting a suitable trigger, such as anger - which Vegeta confirms is the trigger here (I might be just imagining it, but I thought I read somewhere that an existential threat to the species could also hypothetically be a trigger - which would apply here). While I get the feeling that S-Cells, as the 'Midichlorians of Dragon Ball', are scorned by the fanbase (and I don't think they appear outside that interview, either), I do like the paradox they propose for Saiyans - a warrior race that lives harshly and loves to fight is kept from achieving the true power they could aspire to because their very nature stands in the way; while it's expression is perhaps unimaginative and overly biological, it nevertheless neatly captures the paradox of Goku as a gentle warrior from a race that knows no such thing, who attains the peak of their legendary power.
  • We get another visual reference here - very similar to the anime's depiction of Vegeta's Atoning Sacrifice against Buu (albeit flipped), but here, it's a prelude to him ending the fight in a different way - with Super Saiyan Blue. It's unfortunate that the otherwise sweet transformation panel for SSjB is slightly marred by the Viz editors to convert the sound effects into Western text - they've kinda botched redrawing the Whis symbol on Vegeta's armour...
  • And this is the first time we see SSjB with the flecks of what can only be described as 'Blue Power'. One is tempted to infer that this is the selfsame power that Vegeta refers to as "overflowing" in 超 #24 - we didn't see it before when SSjB was displayed, so perhaps this would in turn be an indication that SSjB is now radically more powerful than it was, but with this drawback sharpened? Or maybe it's just a more obvious visual indicator of the form. As we'll see, Goku and Vegeta can't withstand repeat uses of the form.
  • Favourite art: After the slight mishandling of the last SSjB transformation by Viz, it's good that we get another, even cooler and more dynamic, shot of Vegeta transforming into SSjB against Hit. Around it, we get the subtler indications that all isn't as it should be for Vegeta - the sweat, the veins, and the anxious pause as Hit's calm inaction presses Vegeta to attack first and get whomped.
  • Hit himself is the next in a long line of Cell-faced antagonists in modern Dragon Ball media; fortunately the main series avoids them until the Moro arc, where OG73-I looks quite similar, and imparts this look to Moro once he gets eaten. This sort of design shows up in other series, as Shiirasu/Sealas, the antagonist of Super Dragon Ball Heroes: World Mission is likewise a similar-looking Toyotarou design (facially, at least), and he stated that he'd adapted rejected concept art of Shiirasu elsewhere. Hit, however, is a Toriyama design, just like the other Universe 6 combatants, although his comment on the design principally just talks about his cool outfit. This will, of course, actually become a plot point in the next issue, and is hinted at in this one whenever Hit's hands move.
  • Hit's Time-Skipping (only really known about by the Galactic King and Whis) is the most remarkable ability he possesses. It's implied by the Galactic King that various people in Universe 7 can do this, too. They stop time for 0.1 seconds for everyone except themselves, which is why Jaco says Hit seems to completely vanish in the middle of his movements. Once again, it's stated that controlling time is a crime (a concept first introduced in Jaco #1), but Jaco will rationalise his inaction in 超 #14 by noting that Hit can't alter the past and make new timelines (but of course, he's just scared of Hit).
  • Kuririn reprises his role as Mister Senzu Bean, for Vegeta's benefit.
  • It's interesting to note that Whis can refuse a direct instruction from Beerus when he wants to, so he doesn't just tell Goku how to counter Hit's Time-Skip (presumably Whis can take this relatively independent line as long as it's even more neutral than following the order would be), even while he officially only acts upon specific instruction from the God of Destruction (as he will claim in 超 #63, albeit with the appearance of some suspicious ulterior motive). Watch this space, I guess.
  • Fun to note Monaka getting progressively sweatier as events unfold, until he's a sweating, sobbing mess in the next issue.
  • I think this is the first time in Dragon Ball that it's indicated that the act of transforming as such takes a lot of energy. While SSj is stated to take a lot of effort to maintain (as in DB #391), and various transformations are stated to consume energy, such as SSjIII (as stated by Goku in DB #387) and, famously, SSj3, which can only really be used in places where time isn't a factor, such as the afterlife (DB #476), and even Goku can get caught out by the rate at which the form consumes ki (DB #511-513). It's fitting, then, that the transformations Goku will eventually rely on are plain old SSj, which he demonstrated mastery of back in DB #390, and SSjG, which Goku will comment (in 超 #22) is well-balanced and doesn't consume much ki, in contrast to Vegeta's attempts to use and re-use SSjB.
  • Hit's revelation that he's 1000 years old is an opportunity for a cute little gag where Goku is actually polite, for a change. He already gave the standard bow greeting to Hit; it's appropriate that his grandpa was one to pull him up on it when he neglected to show this courtesy in DB #105 (just tying things back in to my first-written/last-made observation). I guess he's become more fastidious in his manners when it comes to his elders and betters, since then...
  • Given the current context in which some are suggesting that Goku's emotional connections with Merus (as of in 超 #63) are sketchy, unconvincing and 'un-earned', I find scenes like this salutary, as they remind us of Goku's tendency to intrigue and draw in even his antagonists just by being himself (note, for instance, Kuririn's famous comment that a lot of the gang started out as enemies who hated Goku, himself included, in DB #336); Merus is just the latest in a long line of relatively easy rapports that Goku has established with his associates and enemies, which in Super alone include Whis (and to a lesser extent Beerus), Hit, The Grand Priest, Zeno-Sama (who thinks of him as a playmate and with whom his relationship is so familiar as to cause comment and consternation generally), Jiren (on a certain level), and Broly. It's always good to see the theme of Goku's easy-going relationships appearing in Dragon Ball, which in the immediate context of this issue serves as a good counterpoint to his conversation with Piccolo about Vegeta, in many ways his deepest and most difficult relationship.
Well, I think that'll do for now, as the Universe 6 Tournament builds to its climax - over to you guys. What did you pick out of these here chapters that you liked or thought was worthy of note, whether a big theme, a plot point, a gag or a detail?

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:05 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:57 pm Glad to have you on board! TheSaiyanGod did mention your twitter thread earlier in the topic, so I tried my best to avoid it for fear of nabbing any of your insights - however, the day before yesterday, I found myself in it by accident while looking for colour images of the manga, and I devoured everything from the Battle of Gods arc through to the Future Trunks arc, before I managed to reassert self-control. :lol:
I did the same thing :lol: Although now I’ve read all the way to ToP

But I like how both re-reads are different in their own way and manage to provide interesting points and rescue some references to the original manga and other materials in the series
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:19 pm The resolution of the fight is ultimately a classic Dragon Ball subversion of an escalating situation - Goku can't damage Botamo, and Vegeta says even SSj won't be able to do anything; Piccolo worries that Goku will tire out if the fight keeps up, and they agree that the only way is to burn his stamina on an all-out attack that might take out his opponent; and after a dramatic pause...Goku pushes Botamo over and flips him out of the ring. An easy win in the end, much to the chagrin of his colleagues.
I don't think Toriyama or Toyo put much thought into it, since Botamo seems to be more like a gag character, but I really wonder if there is any limit to his ability. In the anime, it was explained that he nullify out Goku's attacks, transporting them to another dimension (Something that was not said in the manga) which is a very interesting and unique power, which made Vegeta and Piccolo think that maybe even Goku’s full power wouldn’t be enough. Without the rules of a tournament like this (or like the Tournament of Power), I wonder how Botamo would be defeated
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:19 pm While Piccolo's exchange with Goku resembles that of his chances against Cell from DB #392, here he overturns expectations of, well, just about everyone by fighting smart - he dodges Frost's initial flurry, keeps his distance, and surprises Frost with his stretchy limbs - the first time we've seen them in the manga since DB #183, I think. While he's still worse off than Frost, it's interesting how far he pushes him. It's uncommon for a fighter to pull out this kind of showing against someone apparently much stronger than them, and it's interesting to see in this brief exchange.
I love how Goku is absolutely frank with Piccolo, and how he thinks that maybe Piccolo would serve to make Frost spend some stamina at the most (with Piccolo accepting that he has been reduced to that now). The fight was very short, but seeing Piccolo hold his own against a stronger enemy is refreshing. I really wanted to know how he would perform in a possible fight against Magetta (if he accepted that Frost was eliminated) and how he would make use of his strategies against someone even stronger than Frost.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:19 pm And this is the first time we see SSjB with the flecks of what can only be described as 'Blue Power'. One is tempted to infer that this is the selfsame power that Vegeta refers to as "overflowing" in 超 #24 - we didn't see it before when SSjB was displayed, so perhaps this would in turn be an indication that SSjB is now radically more powerful than it was, but with this drawback sharpened? Or maybe it's just a more obvious visual indicator of the form. As we'll see, Goku and Vegeta can't withstand repeat uses of the form.
I'm almost sure Toyo added these flecks to differentiate SSB from other forms. I mean, the darker shade in the hair is self-explanatory, but the aura was generic and similar to other forms of SSJ. The only slightly different one was the SSG aura (which Toyo added some '' stars '' floating around the user). And from here Toyo continued to differentiate the transformations when he made the flecks of SSJ Rosé Black's aura bigger and have different shapes compared to SSB, or when he changed the look of Vegeta's aura when he powered up his SSB against Jiren
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:19 pmGiven the current context in which some are suggesting that Goku's emotional connections with Merus (as of in 超 #63) are sketchy, unconvincing and 'un-earned', I find scenes like this salutary, as they remind us of Goku's tendency to intrigue and draw in even his antagonists just by being himself (note, for instance, Kuririn's famous comment that a lot of the gang started out as enemies who hated Goku, himself included, in DB #336); Merus is just the latest in a long line of relatively easy rapports that Goku has established with his associates and enemies, which in Super alone include Whis (and to a lesser extent Beerus), Hit, The Grand Priest, Zeno-Sama (who thinks of him as a playmate and with whom his relationship is so familiar as to cause comment and consternation generally), Jiren (on a certain level), and Broly. It's always good to see the theme of Goku's easy-going relationships appearing in Dragon Ball, which in the immediate context of this issue serves as a good counterpoint to his conversation with Piccolo about Vegeta, in many ways his deepest and most difficult relationship.
Yes. I can understand the fact that some people do not feel any connection or empathy for Merus or do not feel that there was a strong relationship between him and Goku, but in-universe it is easy to imagine how much Goku developed a respect and a friendship with him (just like he does with all masters), especially as they spent 6 whole months together training intensely and sharing thoughts and stories

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:28 am

The resolution of the fight is ultimately a classic Dragon Ball subversion of an escalating situation - Goku can't damage Botamo, and Vegeta says even SSj won't be able to do anything; Piccolo worries that Goku will tire out if the fight keeps up, and they agree that the only way is to burn his stamina on an all-out attack that might take out his opponent; and after a dramatic pause...Goku pushes Botamo over and flips him out of the ring. An easy win in the end, much to the chagrin of his colleagues.
I find the end of the fight quite funny thanks to Vegeta and Piccolo's build-up, although I remember thinking on last reread that it would have been a little snappier without the very final movements in tossing Botamo out--so that he'd be more matter-of-factly dropped off the edge of the ring. But that's nitpicking a joke I think mostly works.

Frost vs. Goku was a sleeper hit for me last time. I basically love it. It's not Toriyama-level action, but it's a highlight of Super, combining unique, memorable movement like Frost wrapping his tail around Goku's leg and propelling himself around him for a kick, and engaging character beats like their cocky back-and-forth, with Goku using his experiences with Freeza to call Frost out and owning up to his own Freeza-esque bad habits of holding off on higher forms. Whis deflecting debris is also an energetic side beat. Even the standard back-and-forth martial arts are given spacious panels and a sense of speed the series tends to let up on as its chapters become denser in the more serious arcs and as Toyotarо̄ grapples with higher page counts. It's good fun, and one of the things I first think of when I think of the arc.

I enjoy Piccolo's put-off reactions to Goku and Frost's blunt dismissal of his chances, as well as his commitment to holding out as well as he can. It's a very brief fight, but it at least has that unique dynamic to it.

Jaco's immediate withdrawal of his objection once Champa threatens him got a laugh out of me last reread.
In 超 #33, he'll tell Freeza that he prefers to rule with an iron fist as well, so he's neither an opposite nor a simple copy.
People get hung up on this line, from what I've seen, because it doesn't quite seem to match the background of an unscrupulous sports fighter given to Frost in the manga. I'm not sure it fits his anime background any better though. Maybe he's just saying what Freeza wants to hear. Plus, he does rely on force, in his way.
I guess I should also address the issue of Toyotarou using reference ("tracing", as claimed by the uncharitable). I guess the first direct example of a panel looking like another panel from Dragon Ball, where it isn't a direct callback to something obviously relevant (which I recognise, anyway) is Frost's reaction to Vegeta kneeing him in the gut - it's very similar to Goku's reaction to being kneed in the gut by Raditz in DB #197.
This one goes a touch too far to me, and in general I think obvious references like this only tend to serve as a distraction. I don't find them a deal-breaker, but they're a con for me--and I'm thankful they tend to drop off as the series goes on. They're few and far between in the ToP and Moro arcs, at least. I don't particularly find it to be a moral issue when they're DB-related, because ... surely the intent isn't to hide any of them--they'd be immediately obvious to fans. I can only assume that they're both a shortcut for Toyotarо̄ and something he thinks someone might get a kick out of or at least tolerate, but whatever potential positive impact references as obvious as this are suppose to have is lost on me. Again, not something that ruins the series, but a weakness/something I'd rather not see.

That said, the panels leading up to that, with Vegeta kneeing Frost? Quite good; flipped back through it before responding. I can't imagine he really needs references that overt. I suppose the other thought might have been "Well, I can reuse this DB panel or have my own, potentially weaker version," but I'd rather the potentially weaker, unique one every time.

It runs a gamut, though. There are some things that are simply traditional DB visual tropes, established through Toriyama's own repetition of them throughout the series, and what separates a reference gone too far and simple fidelity to a style he's hired to emulate can be a subjective line. I can only say that this particular Frost panel crosses it for me, as a few others throughout the series do.
Piccolo's tame withdrawal is a little bit of a head-scratcher; I figure some of it is just the fact that his purpose is served by helping expose Frost's cheating so that Goku can be re-admitted. Thinking 'in-Universe' for reasons to withdraw, I guess he can salvage some of his pride by "officially" being the winner thanks to Frost cheating, rather than having to go up against him again, getting decked for real and taking a loss...
Vegeta forces him out, right,? I get the feeling that beat is in there to emphasize Vegeta's animosity toward Frost, as a proxy for Freeza, as well as to somewhat comically cap off the Piccolo dog-piling. Guy can't catch a break, but in the moment, it's true that he was no match for Frost anyway. His nod also seems to indicate that he understands Vegeta's desire and is willing to acquiesce.

Vegeta vs. Magetta is very amusing. My favorite part--again having just flipped back through--is Vegeta taking a blow on the head after Goku tells him to try lifting Magetta up, unaware of how heavy he is.
Magetta sobbing in the background, being comforted by Botamo, is apparently recreated in the interstitial in closer detail; it's cute to be able to think of these little gags as having actually happened in the main story (and some of them definitely have, like Goku accidentally molesting the Galactic King, which is directly referenced in 超 #43).
In my mind, any interstitial that isn't a character roster, which crop up later, and which doesn't explicitly break the fourth wall, happens. Enough explicitly happen that I feel this is well-enough backed up.

Vegeta vs. Cabba is enjoyable enough for its space, and, while the pay-off won't come until after the climax, Vegeta choosing to reduce his chances in the subsequent fight in order to show off Blue to Cabba as a motivator does wonders for his part in the arc and the cozy little adventure that it is.

Re: The new Blue aura that debuts this chapter: I feel this is simply Toytarо̄ devising a way to visually differentiate it from other forms now that it's clear they'll be remaining in the series, without having to rely solely on tone. I'm not sure when he would have been made aware of Rosé, but having a distinct aura to help differentiate those two tone-using forms would have been especially important. For what it's worth, I like the globules he adds to Blue's aura a lot, and think they add something even in the colorized version where their primary purpose (differentiating forms in black and white) isn't needed. The globule-aura is my preferred look for Blue--a form with amazingly little visual consistency between different mediums and designers.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:29 am

Update: Quick double post since I'm past the edit window:

1) I'd forgotten to mention it in the previous post, but since Chapter 12 covers the start of the Hit fight as well, I really like the way the manga chooses to convey his Time Skip early on, using "empty" sound-effect panels to convey the missing moment in time before showing him moving and reappearing around Vegeta in time-lapse.

2) Translation note for next chapter: I had a peek at some of the English pages in light of this thread as well, and there's one bit that caught me off guard, having recently been through the Japanese version (and then double-checking again for this post):

As Hit prepares to use his final Time Skip on Goku, stating that at full power, he can likely only manage the move one more time, Goku comments that now he's the one spilling secrets, in reference to Hit taunting him for being so open about his plans early on. (おめぇも手の内を言うようになったんか.) This becomes, rather bizarrely, "Your secrets are starting to come out..." in Viz's version, losing the idea that it's a retort to Hit's earlier barbs/that Hit has adopted the blabbiness he accused Goku of near the start.

In response, Hit says, essentially, "However, forgive me, this time I'll be keeping my hands hidden." (ただし今回は遠慮なく手元を隠させてもらあうぞ.") This is, of course, in reference to having earlier removed his hands from his pockets to show Goku up for guessing that he can't remove his hands from his coat because he can't change from movements he's committed to. Viz's version renders this as "This time I can keep my hands hidden without worry." I can see what they were going for, because it reads naturally and he's saying he's closed the gap in power enough to not have to worry resorting to his usual method of concealing movements--and it's a frustratingly small dialogue bubble in which to attempt to capture the tenor of that line--but I don't think it quite preserves the idea that he respects Goku enough by this point to acknowledge and verbalize that he won't be giving him any handicaps moving into their last bout. The wording in Japanese is a polite acknowledgement that he'll be resorting to using every last trick he has, versus a less characterizing "Well, now I'm safe to do this."

I also think it winds up slightly mischaracterizing the why of removing his hands from his pockets, and concealing them again at the end. The Viz dialogue makes it sound as if using his pockets has become a handicap to himself, but something he can safely rely on again once he's closed the gap in power. The original dialogue implies the opposite--that removing his hands was a handicap to himself, but something he wanted to push himself to do, as Goku is underestimating and intriguing him, in order to show Goku up. "You think I have to hide my hands in order to be unpredictable? Well, I'll show you. I'll fight more openly and still outmaneuver you." But when push comes to shove and he has to stake it all on one Time Skip, concealing his hands is still advantageous. This likewise has consequence for tracking the changing dynamic between Goku and Hit, and the way the latter is pushed out of his comfort zone as he becomes invested in the fight.

Normally I won't nitpick the translations from a fan perspective, and by and large don't think there are many spots that call for it, but I want to point out just those two because I think they diminish Goku and Hit's changing dynamic a bit. I've seen a lot of fans say that the dynamic of mutually pushing each other that defines their anime fight isn't present in the manga, and perhaps it's not a two-way street (Hit plucks Goku's interest more than pushes him, but as is typical of Super's stories, encountering Goku has ramifications upon Hit and that forms some of the major heart of the arc), but checking back through the English version is the first time in a while, I feel like I can understand why. It's only a handful of lines, but a handful of lines in such a compact space make a difference.

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Magnificent Ponta
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:42 pm

Cipher wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:21 amGoku should probably apologize to Kuririn for both instances, since they mirror Kuririn's line as he steps in to fight the first of Uranai Baba's five fighters at the end of the Red Ribbon Army arc.
See, what you've done there is given me the brainworm that maybe every time Goku does something he thinks is cool, he's got a mental image of Kuririn.
Cipher wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:21 amI meant even assuming nothing's changed from the last time Piccolo got a major power-up in the Cell arc. He was/is stronger than the Androids (as far as anyone knows at this point), and the next fighters up on the ladder are Boo and Gohan. It's a ridiculously huge gap, but he's still in a solid fifth place, and the natural choice if Gohan is out even from a purely pragmatic viewpoint.
Mmmmmmmaybe. In raw power terms, I wouldn't dismiss out-of-hand a take that says the SSj kids might be stronger at that point. To me, it's a toss-up, especially after their Room of Spirit and Time training, but then Piccolo has other advantages as a fighter than power (which I guess I thought of as accounting for Goku's choosing him in the first place).
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:05 amI don't think Toriyama or Toyo put much thought into it, since Botamo seems to be more like a gag character, but I really wonder if there is any limit to his ability. In the anime, it was explained that he nullify out Goku's attacks, transporting them to another dimension (Something that was not said in the manga) which is a very interesting and unique power, which made Vegeta and Piccolo think that maybe even Goku’s full power wouldn’t be enough. Without the rules of a tournament like this (or like the Tournament of Power), I wonder how Botamo would be defeated
Well, I guess #17's 'rubber-banding' of Botamo in 超 #36 means that's definitely not how he 'works' in the manga; Piccolo just says "his whole bod's like rubber, basically", so it seems like it's meant to be a lot more mundane than the anime's treatment. Though, how you'd defeat him for real still depends on the context, I guess; he loses by ring-out both times, so if you had to put him down for good, in a fight where there aren't any rules (as you say) nor are there any convenient weather-effects to exploit (as in Goku's fight with Buyon)...toss him into space, I guess? (Damn but saying that made me feel like a Superman battle-boarder...)
Cipher wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:28 am I can only assume that they're both a shortcut for Toyotarо̄ and something he thinks someone might get a kick out of or at least tolerate, but whatever potential positive impact references as obvious as this are suppose to have is lost on me. Again, not something that ruins the series, but a weakness/something I'd rather not see.
[...]
It runs a gamut, though. There are some things that are simply traditional DB visual tropes, established through Toriyama's own repetition of them throughout the series, and what separates a reference gone too far and simple fidelity to a style he's hired to emulate can be a subjective line. I can only say that this particular Frost panel crosses it for me, as a few others throughout the series do.
I can certainly respect this position - I think the principal cons from it, though, are that it's cemented some really negative perspectives within the fanbase that "Toyotarou's just a tracer", and that his principal tendency is just to settle for a lazy visual reference instead of doing 'proper' storytelling groundwork that 'earns' what he's trying to depict - said accusation levelled just as recently as 超 #63, with an alleged SSj reference at the end 'doing the work' for developing and depicting Goku and Merus's relationship - which I think are generally unjustified. Even though I personally don't think it's a big deal even when Toyotarou does do stuff like this as in the Frost panel, giving the opening for reactions like this is an 'own-goal', for sure.
Cipher wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:29 amNormally I won't nitpick the translations from a fan perspective, and by and large don't think there are many spots that call for it, but I want to point out just those two because I think they diminish Goku and Hit's changing dynamic a bit. I've seen a lot of fans say that the dynamic of mutually pushing each other that defines their anime fight isn't present in the manga, and perhaps it's not a two-way street (Hit plucks Goku's interest more than pushes him, but as is typical of Super's stories, encountering Goku has ramifications upon Hit and that forms some of the major heart of the arc), but checking back through the English version is the first time in a while, I feel like I can understand why. It's only a handful of lines, but a handful of lines in such a compact space make a difference.
Thanks for this insight - I really like seeing stuff like this because as a reader, I habitually like to subject material to close reading (it's not always appropriate, but it is my instinct) but I don't have the wherewithal to do it as I can't read Japanese; while I respect Viz's treatment as a generally accurate good-faith effort (and try to put their lines in the Volume 20 Goku-Vegeta Oozaru exchange to the back of my mind), I am always left wondering whether they're being a little free and inadvertently papering over some important nuances at times.

While I noticed Goku's retort that you mentioned in a thematic way (honest!), it was principally because of the brute force of repeated comments on the theme rather than the exchange you've translated. Also, I had been wildly confused, on a simple comprehension level, about the hand-hiding thing because (owing to the rendering you mentioned, I can now see) I'd connected this with Goku's earlier comment and come up with the notion that Hit couldn't change up his movements specifically while hiding his hands, as opposed to needing to hide them because he can't change it up generally; and I was doubly confused because Goku was (obviously) predicting Hit's movements off of his observations of Hit's revealed hands. I'd shrugged it off as just some indefinable random weirdness, but seeing a precise rendering of this part was very helpful in a bunch of ways; thanks!

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